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Swatted
- Thread starter Maggot
- Start date
I've gotten calls from my own number. I am very much aware of spoofing and of the intricate details and fine lines associated with balancing privacy and validating call origins. I don't know what the full answers are, or what all of the questions are, but I do know that problems exist, and I know that government moves glacially while technology moves at the speed of light.
There's a big difference between showing up to your door with a weapon not pointed at anyone and not doing anything threatening (as well as knowing that you have a gun in your hand, so don't do anything retarded) and reaching for an otherwise stowed weapon.
So no, just because you have a weapon doesn't mean I'm shooting you. Plus, unless I'm an idiot in this situation, I already have my firearm at a low ready, do not present a large target and have multiple others with their weapons ready to drop this guy if he does decide to raise his weapon. Show me a law that states you cannot, as a law abiding citizen, answer your door with a legally owned weapon in your hand if you suspect there is danger/trouble/something weird going on.
My point is I am on the homeowners side if you ready my post. The 'but his hands!1!!!!!1' bullshit excuse by police as justification for basically ANYTHING that goes wrong needs to be tossed and made basically an invalid excuse. If as a CCW holder you could simply shoot anyone doing 'something weird with his hands', we'd have 50 shootings a day and all of them would be unjustified; however this seems to be the go to excuse from police as to why they used force.
I guess I missed post 92, my wife just brought me a new Tequila home to try, and I was sipping a couple fingers on ice. Altos, I like it.
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
No worries. I typed a whole bunch of shit that probably got ignored. Gonna work on my jack daniels now, and get ready to hunt the morning and then figure out how to run a black powder gun.
Phone stuff is easy, and dangerous. Lotta responsibility being a telephone network operator.
On top of everything QuickNDirty explained, there are plenty of anonymizer services out there. If they're off-shore and you try to serve a subpoena, they say, "fuck off, American!" If they're US-based, many of them purposely keep no logs. You can give them all the subpoena/search warrant you want, and they physically cannot give you a damn thing even if they wanted to. These "businesses" are set up specifically to facilitate this kind of shit.
It is a sheer miracle the Swatter was found and arrested as quickly as he was, even at all.
It is a sheer miracle the Swatter was found and arrested as quickly as he was, even at all.
308, with greatest respect, I will again repeat that I am not defending the incident. I am defending the point that there is not an epidemic of trigger happiness among law enforcement.
Damning it may be. But not to a profession. Damning to an incident. Perhaps to an officer. Certainly to a scumbag who caused the incident.
One in a hundred million? Is one too many. But not a reason to wantonly brand the rest, in my humble opinion.
Sirhr
Maybe we don't need 900k armed law enforcement, I wonder how or ratio of LEO vs population stacks up against other peaceful industrialized countries?
I am very okay with the government not being able to track down everything a citizen does. The courts and warrants have been weaponized against the citizenship f our republic.
I am very okay with the government not being able to track down everything a citizen does. The courts and warrants have been weaponized against the citizenship f our republic.
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That is very well said. I hope that on my part people understand that I support the police.
Swatting isn't unique to the United States. The amount of freedom we have is. I know, I know...it's being trampled on, eroded, chipped away systematically by the SWAMP!
900k isn't many for what 350M or more? That's about 400 ppl for every LE. There are 6 LE in my county and one is a State Trooper and another a Game Warden. I don't feel oppressed at all....
A valid question.... but are we in the U.S. 'out of control?
United States 1 sworn officer for every 400 people.
Japan. 1 sworn officer for ever 427 people
United Kingdom 1 sworn officer for every 327 people
Germany 1 sworn officer for every 336 people
Canada 1 sworn officer for every 521 people.
Australia 1 sworn officer for every 558 people.
By industrialized or advanced powers... kind of right in the middle? Out of control? Doesn't look that way. And if you think we're 'militarized' Army... you've been in Gernany! They stand in the stations with machine guns. And that was in the '80s! Even the Brits are no longer just waking around with little truncheons and funny hats!
Would sure be better if we could live in a place where we didn't need any. But I don't think that's in the cards....
As for the surveillance society... and inappropriate use of LE and court resources? In particular those that target their political opponents? You won't get an argument out of me. But that's not a dirtbag gamer calling in a SWAT team... the weaponizing of courts and warrants is more on the order of high-treason. And certainly not the baliwick of some unfortunate guys in Kansas who got handed a very bad hand... by a California scum-weasel.
Sirhr
Most those countries all have national police force too..I wont go as far as to say we need a national one too but maybe a state and county level? What do you guys think..?
Misleading stats really, how many of the sworn in the UK or the other countries are armed? How many killing b government agents there vs here. I been to all those countries many many times and they do not have the presence of armed cops like we do.
as far a dirt bag pos gamer being used as a wedge to take rights away I am okay letting the gamer go, rather restrict the police before I give up any more rights.
I wasn't in favor of tracking police shooting and violence by the feds in the past but I am now, we don't even have decent stats on how many citizens are killed by the police or other armed agents of the state. I think we need to get that data and get it quick, I think every cop shooting of a citizen needs to be investigated by the fed government, until its treated the same way a prosecutor would treat a concealed carrier defending himself, police should not get special laws protecting them, police are not even in the constitution, only sheriffs are, as we have been subjected to police state tactics by the local police across the country. One set of laws for me and one for thee does not work and we are about at the end of the scenario playing out.
as far a dirt bag pos gamer being used as a wedge to take rights away I am okay letting the gamer go, rather restrict the police before I give up any more rights.
I wasn't in favor of tracking police shooting and violence by the feds in the past but I am now, we don't even have decent stats on how many citizens are killed by the police or other armed agents of the state. I think we need to get that data and get it quick, I think every cop shooting of a citizen needs to be investigated by the fed government, until its treated the same way a prosecutor would treat a concealed carrier defending himself, police should not get special laws protecting them, police are not even in the constitution, only sheriffs are, as we have been subjected to police state tactics by the local police across the country. One set of laws for me and one for thee does not work and we are about at the end of the scenario playing out.
Sharf... I would argue that we have several national police forces. The Marshall's service. The FBI. The DEA. ICE. USSS. The Forest Service. And myriad other alphabet agencies who have sworn officers. Including the EPA and a few places that, I'll agree with Army, probably don't need their own police forces! The last thing that the EPA needs is a tree hugger with a CAR-15 and a jones to raid guitar companies.
My numbers above, BTW, include the national police forces. All sworn officers. Regardless of agency. Take out all the feds and the U.S. number of 'street officers' probably goes to 1 in 500 oi 600 citizens!
Cheers,
Sirhr
My numbers above, BTW, include the national police forces. All sworn officers. Regardless of agency. Take out all the feds and the U.S. number of 'street officers' probably goes to 1 in 500 oi 600 citizens!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
Sirh, in your experience, what percentage of your department(s) consisted of chickenshit cocksuckers you thought should find another profession?
I know down here it's not very high, but the ones that meet that criteria are almost impossible to get rid of. One of my friends even set up a hidden camera to film an asshole that was stealing deer meat out of the fridge at the station, they fired him, and yet, he still works there as a uniformed officer. Caught on camera stealing, on camera lying about it, fired, forced to re-hire.
I ask because Ive spent time in most those countries and I found most of the patrol cops extremely professional..Just like I find most state level patrol officers such TX DPS. CA CHP. LAPD. ect ect very professional..on several occasions Ive witnessed TX DPS troopers helping change a flat on a highway...
here is a wiki article, we need better management of our police forces, we should disband all police departments and roll them into sheriffs departments. we should disband all federal police agencies as they are all tainted and have no reason to exist under our Constitution, We need to remove the democrats and republicans from the chain of command of our law enforcement agencies and the only way I can see that happening is elected sheriffs by county. Police departments as we know them today are very new and have been corrupted by the parties and police administrators, not corrupted in a devious criminal way but corrupted in that they act on behalf of the two parties and not on behalf of justice in our Constitutional way.
We need better data, more robust data and quicker reporting and investigation by non department entities. cop murdering is getting out of hand and people are getting pissed. I still do not know why these cops are not arrested on scene.. there were 20 cops witnessing the murder of that homeowner, just like the cop kidnapping that nurse in Utah , nobody did shit to stop him and enforce the law, or that execution in Arizona hotel halway by that fuking psycho with his own MP5 or AR or what ever it was. Time to issue 38 cal or 22 cal pistols and get these glocks and rifles outta the hands of the deranged and scaredy cats that should not have a badge in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
We need better data, more robust data and quicker reporting and investigation by non department entities. cop murdering is getting out of hand and people are getting pissed. I still do not know why these cops are not arrested on scene.. there were 20 cops witnessing the murder of that homeowner, just like the cop kidnapping that nurse in Utah , nobody did shit to stop him and enforce the law, or that execution in Arizona hotel halway by that fuking psycho with his own MP5 or AR or what ever it was. Time to issue 38 cal or 22 cal pistols and get these glocks and rifles outta the hands of the deranged and scaredy cats that should not have a badge in the first place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country
I see Texas Troopers changing more dam tires than the firestone tire shop, in 100+ temps, I see sheriffs doing the same, I never see police or constables doing that. I have never met a statie i didn't like, that's how the police forces should be operating.
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I believe in Germany you have to work the border or the prisons for two years before you can be a patrol cop..
My department? None. We had a few non-hackers who didn't make it through FTO... and are no longer in L.E. And a couple who made it less than a year before being terminated. As non-hackers. Not as dirtbags. Some are still in LE, but not with us. Most found other careers. They just weren't cut out for the job. But we were a tough dept. to get into. And it was harder to stay in... than to get in. And if there had been a problem, I'd have quit anyway.
Expand your question to my region? A handful. Most I didn't know. I just knew their agencies. A couple I knew by association, not as friends. And all were dealt with quickly and without remorse according to the grapevine. Some DUI's, a couple of wifebeaters, one guy who stole evidence. There was no tolerance. No 'rumors or winks or nudges.' They were generally gone before we heard there was an issue. And most were rather publically dealt with by a press up here that hates police. Percentage? Fraction of a percent. Expand to all the LE I met over the years? A smaller fraction still. And, BTW, one of the 'wife-beaters' never touched his wife. His wife's lawyer pushed the charge. And he was terminated only on her claim... designed to pressure him by making him agree to terms... or risk his career. He was terminated after a very public (and wrong) lynching of his character... only to be proven innocent later. He was lucky to keep his pension after 30 years. Someone probably should have defended him... but instead, the 'thin blue line' shitcanned him on a cry of wolf.
I knew more people in business and defense industry who were dirtbags.... faked expense reports, faked sales numbers,, druggies, drunkards, stole other people's work, fucked around on their wives... A much higher percentage. And the higher up the executive ladder, the worse the behavior. And they got covered up way more by bosses/fellow execs who didn't want blots on their records... hey, they were only screwing shareholders, right? Then there's the pedo priests. The doctors writing prescriptions for massive amounts of Oxy. And those soldiers who fake their medals. And the Taco Bell employees who crap in Taco's. The hollywood producers who rape starlets. The teachers porking their students... NPR hosts groping their secretaries.... Simply being a politician? Should I go on?
I won't defend them, either. There are scumbags in every profession and walk of life And some get dealt with.... some get inappropriately defended. Some get away with it for years. And some get screwed when they don't deserve it.
Last, the relevance of my career in my small department (or universe) probably doesn't support the idea of a code of silence or a big blue wall protecting dirtbag officers that you are looking for. If I was in a dept. of 20,000... New York City in the 1970's (Yeah, I read Serpico)... maybe my experience would be more relevant to making your case. But I'm from too small a universe up here to get away with much.
Cheers,
Sirhr
In the UK, not many
In continental Europe, just about every single one of them.
You want to talk militarization of the police? The French Gendarmerie Nationale and the Italian Carabinieri are MILITARY forces policing their citizens.
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I have personal experience with Western Europe. They're armed for a damned good reason.
D
Deleted member 10043
Guest
Cops are on too much of a tactical footing. It is very complicated but our own military knows how much damage can be caused by a single innocent casualty. We don't train civilians what to do when an armored up platoon comes banging on their door. The police are peace officers and not fucking Vikings. It is going to get to the point the police are going to get into a firefight with some innocent people all because the police started it with their fucking panicky bullshit that can be mistaken as a fucked up ambush. This bullshit happened at your house you just going sit there and not return fire while your innocent family member is bleeding out on the front porch? I would have perceived it as an assault on me and mine. It is like turning on a switch.
Q
QuickNDirty
Guest
I'm not looking for a big blue wall. I'm looking for answers to questions only an old fart like you can provide. Maybe you get the wrong impression from some of the stuff I write regarding my stance on police and so forth, but I assure you I'm a fan of police, and the idea of policing.
Several of my close family are cops, and many more are as close to family as you can get before I stop thinking about marrying their daughters. My father retired after 40 years, and is still working for CALEA (35 years IIRC). He's got a yellow rose on his license plate because a guy he was trying to arrest for beating the shit out of his girlfriend took off in the woods and my father started to chase him. He caught up to the guy who was much larger than him, and that guy kicked his ass, grabbed his 357 magnum and shot him through the right lung. He still has about 2/3 of that lung, and the dull brown undershirt he was wearing, which used to be white. His partner killed the guy shortly thereafter. He was driven to the hospital in a hearse, cuz the EMT handling that call at the time was also a mortician.
I am not, however, under the impression that police officers are infallible. I was pulled over in November by 6 officers in 3 vehicles as I was pulling away from a gas pump. I had no fucking idea what was going on. Two officers from the vehicle behind me started to approach my jeep from either side, and I got out and asked the one on my side "What the hell is going on?" He asked for my ID, I gave it to him. He passed it to another officer after taking a quick glance. I asked again, "What the hell is going on?" and he replied, "Your vehicle matches the description of a vehicle that was being driven by someone that just stole some grills from the lowes, do you have any drills in the vehicle?" I replied, "No sir...? What is the description of the vehicle?". He replied, "A white jeep." Now, my white jeep is white in a lot of places, but 'white jeep' is not how I'd describe it and I pointed out many of the unique features that common folks would probably include in their description of MY white jeep. He said, "That doesn't matter. Do you mind if I pat you down real quick?", I said, "Sure, go ahead."
He did not check 12'oclock. I bitched at him about that. I told him to search 'detainee suicide handgun' on youtube which is a video about a man that was arrested, searched, and placed in a room for questioning where he proceeds to pull a full-size 1911 out of his pants and shoot himself in the head. It could have been worse. Check 12'oclock.
That officer was always somewhat pleasant, but he tried to be a dick, too.
He asked if he could search my vehicle, I declined by saying, "I do not consent to searches".
He asked why I am declining about 20 more times, to which I responded, "I do not consent to searches".
He asked, "If you don't have any drills in the jeep, why won't you just let us search it so we can go and find the actual guy?", to which I responded, "I do not consent to searches"
He then said, "Well I'm going to have to escalate this then", I didn't say anything.
He asked if he looks at the store parking lot video, would he see my jeep there, and I said, "You can review all the video feeds down the highway all the way back to the next town and see my jeep THERE, going the speed limit".
He said, "Ok, get out of here."
I said, "Thank you, officer." and got the fuck out of there.
That's a simple thing, the frisk. It has tremendous consequences if not done well. The issues discussed in this thread are much larger than that, and revolve around policy and the people that make the policy. THAT is what I'm asking you about. Policy down here is fucked up in a lot of cases, and I suspect it's probably fucked up in a lot of other places, too. Maybe a lot of it has to do with diversity quota type things, or who knows what, but that's why I ask you questions. Maybe you know, or maybe your town has a population of 35 and the closest thing to policy is free donuts on Friday and don't call Sgt. Mike between 5:15 and 5:25AM because that's when he takes his morning shit. Maybe it's fucking perfect where you're from, and the rest of us could learn a thing or two from the way y'all do shit.
Really sucks about the wife beater, though. Got kind of an opposite example with another good friend that killed himself over time from a bad opioid addiction. He'd already been fired for it, but the press made him out to be a stellar individual (which he was, for the most part), and some in the ranks didn't think he should have a police funeral with the procession and whatnot, but chief set everyone straight and the public never had a clue. Very sad funeral, I knew that whole family well, really shit circumstances.
So, thanks for the response. I'd also appreciate it if you hit on some of my questions in post #90 on page 4. I can do magic with phones and computery type things, but I dunno how to link a post.
BTW, what year did you retire?
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QD. I retired on Dec 1, 2016.
I looked at post 91 (somene must have deleted something.... but you were watching a spikehorn at the beginning of it...) And your question at the end is right on. What was the whole situation? I head some of the 911 call... but have not 'studied' the response as indepth as some here. But I gather that everyone came in lights blazing and it was an all-hands evolution.
And I don't know what the Wichata (was it?) SWAT's sop is... but they are undoubtedly not first on scene. They show up after every patrol car in the area arrives. And, no, they don't show up like a nice stealthy raid on a drug-house might.
I can say that a lot changed in my 13 years. One of which was that in active-shooter situations (this would probably have been considered active-shooter, since the 'caller' said he had hostages and was going to kill them) response changed massively. C. 2004, the arriving officers were told to hold the scene, wait until enough officers showed up to create an entry team and secure the outside before going into a building. That got people killed... because the active shooter was still active. That changed to a policy where you went in, alone if needed, if the shooter was active. Because it was found that if even one responder showed up, it was likely to save lives in that most of the shooters would either kill themselves or their focus would be diverted to survival against an armed threat, not continuing to attack hostages.
The downside of this is that while there is a basic set of responses you can work with... there is no longer a big window for planning. No command trucks in the first moments and negotiators and people hailing on loudspeakers and sending in phones on robots... all of which makes great TV but is probably not happening in the first minutes of an incident in Kansas. Active shooting has meant active response.
This is why I don't want to rush to judgement. And, perhaps, police procedures will change after this one. The self-criticism drill on this (held by departments everywhere) will result in some new knowledge, new procedures and new ideas for dealing with this. To make sure it doesn't happen again. Which, unfortunately, it will, probably. Because some new twist will arise.
As for my department... yup, small. <30 officers. But in a resort town that attracts all kinds of folks. From billionaires to fugitives. We're a town of 3500 that becomes a small city of 20,000 every weekend. And many are here to see if they can drink enough. Plus mutual aid to another 7 departments in the largest county in the state we worked in a 700 square mile jurisdiction. Doesn't seem like a lot... but it is. With an opoid crisis and where everyone has multiple firearms in the home (which ensures very, very low break-in rate). And on any night, that 700 square miles was covered by about 10 officers/troopers and a game warden. We all learn from each other, BTW.
Last, and this has always been something that pissed me off... was Army's point about doing little things like changing tires or helping someone get their car unstuck. Because that's' the sort of thing that we all want to be able to do. Guess why, at least in our neck of the woods, we can't? Because the insurance companies that provide liability insurance to cities and towns... won't allow it. So the edict from the Town Council and the Town Manager... and the whiny insurance agents that insure them... is that no public employee can change a tire, tow a car, help push it out of a snowbank... nothing. Why? So that we don't get sued if the wheel falls off three days later. Or the owner claims we scratched his BMW while pulling it out. Or the owner continues on their merry way in an ice storm and has a fatal crash... guess who gets sued. The department that put him back on the road in a dangerous ice storm. So instead of doing stuff that we'd love to do... stuff that makes us look good... and we can do easily and safely... we get told that all we can do is sit in a cruiser with the lights going all blinky and wait for a tow truck. While looking like idiots. And making citizens pay a tow driver $100 for something we could have done as a service in minutes. And made everyone happy. Well, except the politicians... and the insurance agents... and I suppose the tow truck lobby. But, hey, lower insurance premiums mean lower property taxes. And that's what everyone screams for. Until they have a flat. And we can't help them. Then they say it's the officer's fault for never getting out of their cruiser and that we're not interested in helping the public. What would I rather be doing? Writing a ticket?.... or making someone's day by changing a tire? Changing the tire every time... that's the "and Serve" oart. And everyone smiles at the end of it. Except the insurance guy with the bow tie and the spread sheet. So next time you see an officer sitting in a cruiser NOT changing a tire... ask yourself whether he wants to be sitting there... or would rather, at that particular moment, be the hero in blue with the tire iron and jack? And whether the real 'a**hole" isn't sitting behind a desk at a government office polishing their resume and telling people "But look, I saved the town $500 a year in insurance... " while costing the citizens tens of thousands in towing charges. I presume tow-truck drivers who now all seem to drive Audi's and BMW's will disagree... And this may not be the case everywhere. But it's true state-wide here... because we have one insurer. And the stuff they dictate will make your hair curl.. And not just about changing tires. About training... about hours. About hiring. It's appalling in so many ways... Again, is the problem with the police... or the out-of-control government and lawyer-happy state of affairs that we now have.
I liked Army's comment... I don't feel Oppressed... I feel Encroached-upon. Damn that was right on!
Anyway, lots of what we 'know'... we don't. Until we've been in someone else's shoes.
Cheers,
Sirhr
I looked at post 91 (somene must have deleted something.... but you were watching a spikehorn at the beginning of it...) And your question at the end is right on. What was the whole situation? I head some of the 911 call... but have not 'studied' the response as indepth as some here. But I gather that everyone came in lights blazing and it was an all-hands evolution.
And I don't know what the Wichata (was it?) SWAT's sop is... but they are undoubtedly not first on scene. They show up after every patrol car in the area arrives. And, no, they don't show up like a nice stealthy raid on a drug-house might.
I can say that a lot changed in my 13 years. One of which was that in active-shooter situations (this would probably have been considered active-shooter, since the 'caller' said he had hostages and was going to kill them) response changed massively. C. 2004, the arriving officers were told to hold the scene, wait until enough officers showed up to create an entry team and secure the outside before going into a building. That got people killed... because the active shooter was still active. That changed to a policy where you went in, alone if needed, if the shooter was active. Because it was found that if even one responder showed up, it was likely to save lives in that most of the shooters would either kill themselves or their focus would be diverted to survival against an armed threat, not continuing to attack hostages.
The downside of this is that while there is a basic set of responses you can work with... there is no longer a big window for planning. No command trucks in the first moments and negotiators and people hailing on loudspeakers and sending in phones on robots... all of which makes great TV but is probably not happening in the first minutes of an incident in Kansas. Active shooting has meant active response.
This is why I don't want to rush to judgement. And, perhaps, police procedures will change after this one. The self-criticism drill on this (held by departments everywhere) will result in some new knowledge, new procedures and new ideas for dealing with this. To make sure it doesn't happen again. Which, unfortunately, it will, probably. Because some new twist will arise.
As for my department... yup, small. <30 officers. But in a resort town that attracts all kinds of folks. From billionaires to fugitives. We're a town of 3500 that becomes a small city of 20,000 every weekend. And many are here to see if they can drink enough. Plus mutual aid to another 7 departments in the largest county in the state we worked in a 700 square mile jurisdiction. Doesn't seem like a lot... but it is. With an opoid crisis and where everyone has multiple firearms in the home (which ensures very, very low break-in rate). And on any night, that 700 square miles was covered by about 10 officers/troopers and a game warden. We all learn from each other, BTW.
Last, and this has always been something that pissed me off... was Army's point about doing little things like changing tires or helping someone get their car unstuck. Because that's' the sort of thing that we all want to be able to do. Guess why, at least in our neck of the woods, we can't? Because the insurance companies that provide liability insurance to cities and towns... won't allow it. So the edict from the Town Council and the Town Manager... and the whiny insurance agents that insure them... is that no public employee can change a tire, tow a car, help push it out of a snowbank... nothing. Why? So that we don't get sued if the wheel falls off three days later. Or the owner claims we scratched his BMW while pulling it out. Or the owner continues on their merry way in an ice storm and has a fatal crash... guess who gets sued. The department that put him back on the road in a dangerous ice storm. So instead of doing stuff that we'd love to do... stuff that makes us look good... and we can do easily and safely... we get told that all we can do is sit in a cruiser with the lights going all blinky and wait for a tow truck. While looking like idiots. And making citizens pay a tow driver $100 for something we could have done as a service in minutes. And made everyone happy. Well, except the politicians... and the insurance agents... and I suppose the tow truck lobby. But, hey, lower insurance premiums mean lower property taxes. And that's what everyone screams for. Until they have a flat. And we can't help them. Then they say it's the officer's fault for never getting out of their cruiser and that we're not interested in helping the public. What would I rather be doing? Writing a ticket?.... or making someone's day by changing a tire? Changing the tire every time... that's the "and Serve" oart. And everyone smiles at the end of it. Except the insurance guy with the bow tie and the spread sheet. So next time you see an officer sitting in a cruiser NOT changing a tire... ask yourself whether he wants to be sitting there... or would rather, at that particular moment, be the hero in blue with the tire iron and jack? And whether the real 'a**hole" isn't sitting behind a desk at a government office polishing their resume and telling people "But look, I saved the town $500 a year in insurance... " while costing the citizens tens of thousands in towing charges. I presume tow-truck drivers who now all seem to drive Audi's and BMW's will disagree... And this may not be the case everywhere. But it's true state-wide here... because we have one insurer. And the stuff they dictate will make your hair curl.. And not just about changing tires. About training... about hours. About hiring. It's appalling in so many ways... Again, is the problem with the police... or the out-of-control government and lawyer-happy state of affairs that we now have.
I liked Army's comment... I don't feel Oppressed... I feel Encroached-upon. Damn that was right on!
Anyway, lots of what we 'know'... we don't. Until we've been in someone else's shoes.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Sirmechanic, I get everything you are saying about changing procedures. As a matter of fact I was one of the critics of the police cowering behind trees while that nut (in some university in Va.?) kept killing students. Yet I can not quite make the step from hiding behind a tree to shooting a man who has threatened no one. If I were seated on the jury (most unlikely) this officers best chance of turning murder down to manslaughter would be to claim that it was an accidental discharge while showing great remorse.
Diver, I get what you're saying, and I'm not arguing with you. But let me ask you (and everyone) this:
How many AR's are you/is anyone aware of, that they "just go off"? Not unlike the premise of a Rem 700 firing upon the bolt being closed because of a 'bad trigger' setting. Is there a rampant AR style firing issue that I'm not aware of? Point of that question is, can we/should we REALLY attempt to shift the blame to an inanimate object and open the doors to "it was the rifles fault"?
Or was it perchance the extra gravitational pull acting upon the sear from the nearby-flying meteorite that COULD have done it?
Yes, what I'm asking is partly ridiculous, and partly serious at the same time. Just throwing it out there. And yes, this is an absolutely atrocious situation.
Sean, that is very well put. In this case an AD might have been caused by the officer applying more pressure to the trigger than he realized, not by a malfunction of the weapon. In a stressful situation (which this was) it can be very easy to be stronger than you realize. The procedure should be not to put your finger on the trigger until the choice had been made to fire. So my analysis would be that this, if believed, might move murder to manslaughter.
On the Remington 700, I personally witnessed one fire as the was closed. The shooter did not have a finger on the trigger, and we were not able to duplicate it.
Diver, to go along/run with your statement then, (which I agree), then I too will jump on the bandwagon of another who stated years ago that "Accidental Discharge AD" should be globally renamed "Negligent Discharge ND" because negligence has a cause and responsibility. One where it can be 'ascertained' and agreed-upon, as opposed to "well, scientifically speaking, it COULD have been the extra gravitational pull of..... "
This is not to sway the discussion away from the topic of the thread. This is only intended to discuss ONE SMALL POINT of the discussion in this thread. But there is one word that culminates absolutely every aspect of every microscopic action, view, and effect of this situation.
RESPONSIBILITY.
There are so many PEOPLE who are RESPONSIBLE for so many different ACTIONS here that it is quite staggering as to the complexity of the situation. My only prayer is that it isn't all boiled down to 'one' person, and everybody else gets off with lesser charges/immunity/whatevertheflavoroftheweekis and whatnot.
It all starts with the TWO gamers,,,, the one who stated the wrong address.... AND the one who CALLED IN the wrong address,,,, and the snowball cascades downhill from there.
This is not to sway the discussion away from the topic of the thread. This is only intended to discuss ONE SMALL POINT of the discussion in this thread. But there is one word that culminates absolutely every aspect of every microscopic action, view, and effect of this situation.
RESPONSIBILITY.
There are so many PEOPLE who are RESPONSIBLE for so many different ACTIONS here that it is quite staggering as to the complexity of the situation. My only prayer is that it isn't all boiled down to 'one' person, and everybody else gets off with lesser charges/immunity/whatevertheflavoroftheweekis and whatnot.
It all starts with the TWO gamers,,,, the one who stated the wrong address.... AND the one who CALLED IN the wrong address,,,, and the snowball cascades downhill from there.
While we are talking about responsibility how about the gaming company that allows people to gamble on their platform.
no jumping on a band wagon here, to disagree or make excuses for what your eyes are telling you from the video is being disingenuous with yourself and others. The only thing I am waiting on to see from the police is their weak ass excuse as to why this trigger puller is not in jail right now while they investigate?
At this point LEO should be asking themselves if civilians should have reasonable fear of harm or death during any police civilian encounter and if are both sides equally justified in any action they might take, not justified according to a cop or prosecutor but reasonably justified to a jury. I bet in Kansas right now, it would be hard to convict someone of shooting it out with the police. At this point we are verging on anarchy because there is no trust in justice.
At this point LEO should be asking themselves if civilians should have reasonable fear of harm or death during any police civilian encounter and if are both sides equally justified in any action they might take, not justified according to a cop or prosecutor but reasonably justified to a jury. I bet in Kansas right now, it would be hard to convict someone of shooting it out with the police. At this point we are verging on anarchy because there is no trust in justice.
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At this point we are verging on "unintended consequences" when anarchy starts. Anarchy will bring on an unwinnable firefight to a lot of good people. Hello Iraq insurrection in the USA.
Right now, whether you believe it or not, Constitutional Due Process and 18 civilians still have the chance to do the right thing and are standing between good and not good. And constitutional due process can be a waiting game that's really tough to stand by for, sometimes... but, it's still in charge, not anarchy.
Right now, whether you believe it or not, Constitutional Due Process and 18 civilians still have the chance to do the right thing and are standing between good and not good. And constitutional due process can be a waiting game that's really tough to stand by for, sometimes... but, it's still in charge, not anarchy.
That's a great write up on how the pencil pushers and bureaucrats have messed things up so badly to the ruining of polite society.
The answer however is that the good people on all sides need to speak out publically and often and demand changes.
Start with the Police coming out publically and telling everyone the problem over and over till it gets enough traction among the "good citizens", you know every time you are sitting waiting, explaining that you could have this done for free, but due to xxxx it's going to be an hour and $100 .
Then push significant tort reform to block lawyers profiting from people being decent.
It can be done, not long ago Texas did some very significant tort reform for medical & other general government / insurance stuff and it did make a lot of difference.
The people need to get back to telling the corporations, lawyers and bureaucrats what they can and cannot do, rather than the other way around.
One of the biggest issues these days is because of the way we have let our laws get mucked up, nobody seems to care about who is actually responsible, just who has the biggest pocket that they can sue for some made up stretching the limits of logic chain of causality. (Too bad they won't let us use that same logic for crime and terrorism control).
Due process has been bastardized and undermined, that shooter should be in jail, not on paid vacation. When you have two sets of laws you have no law at all. Sorry but equal protection under the law also means equally responsible under the law, that shooter should be jailed while the investigation is carried out. He should be held to the same standard as a civilian.
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You and I agree once again... even though it may not sound that way some times.
I err to the side of legislative reform while enough of us older "gentlemen" still live and can try to motivate flyover to get out en-mass and vote, ala 2016....
Rather than see an iraq insurrection event come here, because I have seen the unintended consequences b4 and I know what will come. partially because in my previous life (ha), I trained a large number of those who will be putting said insurrection down. I know exactly what they are going to do. We really don't want to go there....
Sure put the officer in jail while they conduct the investigation. Charge him. Lots of cops go to jail for fucking up. Nothing new.
Unintended might be that those you trained wont be putting anything down but leading it.
Whatever makes you think the same or worse won't done to theirs?
It's real easy to be a badass in a foreign country when your family is thousands of miles away. It's a whole 'nother matter when they are within easy reach of your enemy.
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Lots of people who murder other people get put into jail after they are arrested, they usually are only arrested if they make bail.
Not talking about a foreign country......... I'm talking about U.S.A... I think you have missed or misinterpreted something in the "easy to lose specifics over internet screens, typed word vs spoken word".
I think J HUsky is talking about his experience training counterinsurgency troopers, my contention is if they are Americans and are observing like I am I think they will in leadership positions of the fight to take back the republic, not putting down an insurgency. Insurgency and CI warfare is brutal, I don't think this gen is any better than my gen or the gen before , actually I think prior generations were better because they are more violent, quicker, when needed, and didn't have these pussies from the academies and politicians who hand cuff troops with imaginary law of war so they feel better about themselves. I personally think DC will get sacked and everyone inside 495 destroyed inside two weeks once the trigger point is reached. If you live near there you should move now.
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It is two separate things. What the two gamers did and what the police did. The gamers created the scenario. And what the police did. The latter being a complete failure in training that resulted in a panic response. The only thing the police did correct was arrive at the address that was called in. After that they fucked up. All things relevent if this was an training exercise the police would have failed and a do over. The gamers defense is going to be they had the reasonable expectation that the police would realize it was a sick prank call once they arrived and scared the shit out of everyone. That they relied on police reputation of proper training and calm and not panic response. The gamers are in the least amount if total fuck up beyond recognition here. But not by much.
