Action wrench is not as good as a simple torque wrench... There's definitely a market for quick barrel change LA, currently the only options are the 6k up highend factory rifle. No custom action in this category. Hope Joel will change his mind.
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Terminus Actions
- Thread starter Joel Russo
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Ummmm. I put my torque wrench on my action wrench...
he means torque wrench on the cross bolt allen key thing after snapping hand tight
If you mean the color than maybe. Call Joel and ask him. You might need to wait until the next batch is machined. I saw this photo on their Facebook site.
I don’t think he does. He quoted a guy saying Joel told him he uses an action wrench and torquing just over hand tight.
I made a mistake, should say an inch-pound torque screwdriver instead of a torque wrench.
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I believe that was his point. While torquing an action with a torque wrench and action wrench may not be a huge deal, it doesn't compare with the ease and simplicity of being able to spin your barrel on hand tight, then use a torque screwdriver to secure (as you can on the Zeus or an AI).
No. But the testing is pretty definitive. I'll always torque my barrels to no less than 80 ft/lbs.
@Joel Russo is there a difference in bolt lift/ closure between the Zeus and the Apollo? I’m leaning towards the Apollo because I don’t need a quick change system and an integral lug and rail doesn’t matter much to me.
All the tests that show poi shifts when the side of a barrel gets a decent wack and isn’t torqued.
I've had a Vector, and own a Zeus. Chambered a dozen barrels for these actions, competed with a number of shooters also shooting these actions. Never heard anyone having a POI shift because a barrel got banged on a prop or dropped.
Again, what tests are you talking about? If it was a post on a thread that some guy told you about - that's not a test. Peddle that crap somewhere else.
I’m still Digging for more.
www.snipershide.com
Why so much worry about switch barrel rifles that do not require a barrel vise and action wrench?
Guy and gals, We have seen a lot of interest in "switch barrel" rifles over the last year. A lot of the setups we have seen are cool and seem to work ok. At Kelbly's we have been producing true switch barrel rifles since 1981. Our actions are setup to run barrels interchangeably, with the...
www.snipershide.com
In that case, you should video yourself giving your barrel a decent wack and repeating zero.
why did ARC suspend Barloc sales?
I tried to order one the other day and was told by ARC guys there not selling them right now. He said reports of POI change if the barrel is struck. I would have figured the amount of positional shooters, hunters, yahooos here it would have shown up here with an issue. I'm gathering my parts...
www.snipershide.com
Switch Barrel Technology
I went with the switchlug. It's almost most finished up, I'll post an update one I get it . For me I wanted a system that I could use with the action and chassis I already had plus to be able to swap barrels without removing the the action or the scope. heres a pic my smith posted on FB.
www.snipershide.com
Interesting... I've banged my barrel off plenty of stuff with my zeus and never had any shift. My wrist snap must be 80 ft-lbs. I should add it to my resume.
OK, two posts from Ian Kelbly, and one thread on the ARC Barloc.Switch Barrel Technology
I went with the switchlug. It's almost most finished up, I'll post an update one I get it . For me I wanted a system that I could use with the action and chassis I already had plus to be able to swap barrels without removing the the action or the scope. heres a pic my smith posted on FB.
The Barloc - I think you are conflating the Barloc with a shouldered hand tight system like the Vector/Zeus. The Barloc is a device between the barrel and the action. I'm not entirely familiar with it, but it's not relevant to whether a hand tightened shouldered barrel will have POI shifts if it gets a "decent whack".
Ian Kelbly's posts - He said the chamber pressure on a barrel not torqued properly "causes minor POI shifts on target" because "this amount of pressure on hand tight barrels will cause a barrel to separate from the face of the receiver marginally and then the elastic properties of metal cause the barrel to slam back into the receiver face." He goes on to say that proper barrel torque is "100-150 foot pounds of torque".
I'm sure Ian is a knowledgeable guy, but even taken at face value, that's completely different that what you're saying about the Vector/Zeus system being susceptible to POI shifts if the barrel is "whacked". And nowhere is there any mention of conclusive testing.
If you're here to say Ian Kelbly says "The only way to have extreme consistent accuracy is to have a shouldered barrel that is torqued at 100-150 foot pounds of torque." - then just say it.
I’m here to say a barrel tenon is essentially a critical fastener.
Wack one and see.
If there were issues with these quick change systems, the reports would be way more widespread and easy to find as there are quite a few in use...
I ran a quick change system, 400 rounds over 4 days in Alaska. 10 in/lbs set screw, hand tight the barrel. I didn't lose zero. I didn't go around wacking my rifle, but it was sitting in the back of a truck bouncing around to the range. Wasn't in a hard case.
I have a Terminus Zeus, primary match cartridge 6BRX
Have used it with "hand tight" and torqued barrels.
No issues including when banging the crap out of it during PRS stages with either fitting method.
I choose to use action wrench and tried a range of torques - have settled on 40ft.lb with set screws then locked.
You can feel that 40ft.lb(55Nm) gives a slight crush fit and takes a solid pressure to release a barrel after say 300rounds.
No idea why a torque of 80-100 would be used, it is really quite hard to release a barrel at 40ft.lb. But just cause it works for me....
I choose to use a torque wrench all the time now purely cause 58000psi in front of my face says "know, don't guess that barrel is fitted well".
Re headspace as some have asked, does it matter on a crush fit versus hand fit in a Zeus/Vector?
Maybe I'm wrong but as long as the bolt closes on the tenon, if you are fireforming my understanding is you are creating your own unique cases for you chamber so why sweat 0.001-0.002".
Being silly but say your chamber was reamed 10 or 20though longer than mine. You'd simply be creating a Dasher/BRX+20
Think of all that extra powder capacity and MV........ : )
FWIW
Zeus is in MPA BA Comp and runs perfectly with AICS mags with MPA Mag Block fitted in chassis
Have used it with "hand tight" and torqued barrels.
No issues including when banging the crap out of it during PRS stages with either fitting method.
I choose to use action wrench and tried a range of torques - have settled on 40ft.lb with set screws then locked.
You can feel that 40ft.lb(55Nm) gives a slight crush fit and takes a solid pressure to release a barrel after say 300rounds.
No idea why a torque of 80-100 would be used, it is really quite hard to release a barrel at 40ft.lb. But just cause it works for me....
I choose to use a torque wrench all the time now purely cause 58000psi in front of my face says "know, don't guess that barrel is fitted well".
Re headspace as some have asked, does it matter on a crush fit versus hand fit in a Zeus/Vector?
Maybe I'm wrong but as long as the bolt closes on the tenon, if you are fireforming my understanding is you are creating your own unique cases for you chamber so why sweat 0.001-0.002".
Being silly but say your chamber was reamed 10 or 20though longer than mine. You'd simply be creating a Dasher/BRX+20
Think of all that extra powder capacity and MV........ : )
FWIW
Zeus is in MPA BA Comp and runs perfectly with AICS mags with MPA Mag Block fitted in chassis
It appears you're here to throw shade on a system you have zero experience with and don't even have anyone else's personal experience with the system to back your opinion up....
Not exactly.
Watch Ted’s interview with Caylen on the Modern Day Rifleman Summit. He says he’d prefer 150ft/lbs of barrel torque as well. He’s also a mechanical engineer. He knows about critical fasteners. He made the Barloc because people wanted it. He knew what it’s shortcomings were before it was ever released, and stated them, but provided for a market. I don’t think Joel will say any different between his two designs. It’s all relative to your expectations.
Watch Ted’s interview with Caylen on the Modern Day Rifleman Summit. He says he’d prefer 150ft/lbs of barrel torque as well. He’s also a mechanical engineer. He knows about critical fasteners. He made the Barloc because people wanted it. He knew what it’s shortcomings were before it was ever released, and stated them, but provided for a market. I don’t think Joel will say any different between his two designs. It’s all relative to your expectations.
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Has anyone replaced their bolt knob with either the round or hour glass knob? Turns out that the magpul pro 700 chassis won't fold over the original bolt. Was hoping that one of the two may allow it. Looking for dimensions. I like the action too much to use a different action, and I like the chassis too much to use a different stock/chassis.
I have the round and the one you have, I do no think that it would work any better. It is just as long. Are you looking to transport when folded? could just take the bolt out? I am not sure any other action would be any better, but I am not familiar with the chassis you have. I can tae a picture of them next to each other when I get home.
Some of the issue is that the Zeus bolt is straight rather than swept. I threw a Defiance action in and it fits as it should. I bought the chassis because it does a bolt side folding. If either of the alternatives to the factory bolt were slightly narrower it may work. I originally was looking at the ball knob anyway to mimic the AI bolt knobs (sort of). I'm looking for a measurement on the ball one from the seam (were it meets the bolt lever/arm) to the bottom of the ball and the max width. Same for the hour glass one. TY I appreciate it!!
My Terminus Zeus is on its way here. Have a 6 Dasher barrel and it will go in a KMW Sentinel.
TT Diamond to make it go boom.
As for folding chassis, I know there are some lefties in this world (my goofy wife) but why would anyone design a folder without hinging it the opposite direction of the bolt?
TT Diamond to make it go boom.
As for folding chassis, I know there are some lefties in this world (my goofy wife) but why would anyone design a folder without hinging it the opposite direction of the bolt?
Not sure what you mean? Are you saying folders should fold away from the bolt or only the bolt. Benefit of folding over the bolt is the over all width is reduced and the bolt is secured. The magpul chassis actually can be swapped to hinge either way and set up for right or left use.
I do not have the hour glass one, but will get some measurements later today.
All AI folders that I have, rifles and chassis, fold left and IMO folded is folded. Maybe some later models of AI do fold over the bolt handle but I like the old AW. You're increasing width when folded no matter which way it goes.
I see no advantage to folding over the bolt in my case.
There will be per his podcast with PRM. Call Joel, he's easy to talk to.
Yes folding increases width no matter what, but folding over the bolt negates the extra width of the bolt if folded to the opposite. Its all preference. AI AX fold over the bolt as seen her on my ax...
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