The war in Ukraine and Donbas

[Lightning8]

I aint saying Russia would beat us in a conventional war.. not at all. I think we'd roll them up.

But speaking purely in terms of arty- can/could/does Russia outpace and outnumber us in artillery and shell production and deployment/usage?

I would like to hear more details about "we'd roll them up". Are you a War College grad, SAMs grad, similar? At some point, war is a numbers game along with a quality kicker - have you looked at the US military in terms of how many no kidding deployable Soldiers and Marines are available? Combat ready aircraft and ships? How many munitions are available? How may shipyard, tank factories, aircraft manufacturing facilities are up and running?

US military has been fighting 3rd world countries and terrorists since before 9-11. How many of our leaders - officers and NCOs - have thorough training on fighting peers or near-peers in a 3rd World War type scenario?

 

[Lightning8]

in some ways, WW2 is a template.

for as good as the German military machine was, the combined weight of the world's economy crushed them. there are all kinds of specific examples of how that played out, but in short we the Allies outproduced them, replaced our losses faster than they could destroy our material, and pushed them to the breaking point before they could recover from the previous blow.

Russia has a decent military despite it's lack of funding. But we outspend them more than 10-to-1. They wouldn't be able to keep up.

How much of the 10-1 military spending goes to "Readiness". How much time does our military spend on training to fight peer or near peer adversary? How much of that 10-1 spending is on a) sexual harassment, b) BLM, c) LBTQ whatever, d) renaming posts and so on. As one of my favorite Infantry Captains said in a BS briefing 20+ years ago - "What does this have to do with killing?". How much of the US military budget has to do with "killing"?

 

[Darayavaus]

How much of the 10-1 military spending goes to "Readiness". How much time does our military spend on training to fight peer or near peer adversary? How much of that 10-1 spending is on a) sexual harassment, b) BLM, c) LBTQ whatever, d) renaming posts and so on. As one of my favorite Infantry Captains said in a BS briefing 20+ years ago - "What does this have to do with killing?". How much of the US military budget has to do with "killing"?

unfortunately if our politicians thought that more material was needed to grind Russia into dust, they would just raise our taxes again and again until nobody could afford food or clothing.

Amazing how our founding fathers stood up against a single digit tax on their prosperity, but now we work like slaves to fund the bureaucracy

 

[Lightning8]

unfortunately if our politicians thought that more material was needed to grind Russia into dust, they would just raise our taxes again and again until nobody could afford food or clothing.

Amazing how our founding fathers stood up against a single digit tax on their prosperity, but now we work like slaves to fund the bureaucracy

Actually, they are not raising taxes they are merely printing money and thereby causing inflation which arguably is a tax but majority of American do not comprehend or care.

A better point is that the current military budget is not focused on "killing" which is ultimately the primary tool of the US military to meet its #1 mission of securing the Homeland.

 

[232593]

I would like to hear more details about "we'd roll them up". Are you a War College grad, SAMs grad, similar? At some point, war is a numbers game along with a quality kicker - have you looked at the US military in terms of how many no kidding deployable Soldiers and Marines are available? Combat ready aircraft and ships? How many munitions are available? How may shipyard, tank factories, aircraft manufacturing facilities are up and running?

US military has been fighting 3rd world countries and terrorists since before 9-11. How many of our leaders - officers and NCOs - have thorough training on fighting peers or near-peers in a 3rd World War type scenario?

You bring up a good point WRT Sustainment, almost a decade ago I read a paper out of the War College that asserted we could do a WW2/peer conflict for very long due to a lack of replacement capacity for key systems. Is that still the case now? No idea, hope not.

And I’m pretty sure you’re correct regarding WW3 planning experience. Maybe a handful of CW5s and GOs now?? If that. And those that are were oriented to a conflict with the USSR in Europe and the Atlantic. Not sure if similar experience exists for a conflict at that scale with the CHICOMs and the Russians.

 

[Lightning8]

Not sure if similar experience exists for a conflict at that scale with the CHICOMs and the Russians.

I suspect the Russians are now very well trained in modern force on force with their current adventure in the Ukraine.

 

[Mr.BR]

Propaganda machine is quite effective and convincing folk that they are un against incompetent subhumans has been on air 24/7 since day one.

 

[232593]

I suspect the Russians are now very well trained in modern force on force with their current adventure in the Ukraine.

I suspect you’re right. Matter of fact they have probably used this to find the stress points in their system and in the process of fixing it.

They damn sure better have fixed their wet gap crossing doctrine, training, and execution.

 

[Lightning8]

I suspect you’re right. Matter of fact they have probably used this to find the stress points in their system and in the process of fixing it.

They damn sure better have fixed their wet gap crossing doctrine, training, and execution.

Modern "peer on peer" fight is tough and complicated. Lots of moving parts in breaching obstacle belts, wet gap aka river crossings and so forth. 25 years ago - US Army trained extensively at NTC on Heavy Brigade force on force fighting using Combined Arms techniques - 25 years is a generation ago for the military.

 

[Mr.BR]

Hang on 'Ghost of Kiev' Brandon is preparing another 10billion$ .

 

[Ichi]

An interesting point of view here...

Colonel Douglas Macgregor: If NATO Goes Toe-To-Toe With The Russians NATO Will Lose

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Even CNN is now admitting that the counteroffensive seems to have stalled

https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/08/politics/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-briefings/index.html

Slowly the narrative is shifting. They need this over before the next election cycle.

 

[Ichi]

 

[Sako man]

So.. did this guy basically say the Russians have better shit. Pretty sure McGregor said a year ago that a gaggle of leopards was not going to make any difference. The leopards had shown some weaknesses during the Turkey coup attempt, and in Turkeys battles with Dash, and the Kurds.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Modern "peer on peer" fight is tough and complicated. Lots of moving parts in breaching obstacle belts, wet gap aka river crossings and so forth. 25 years ago - US Army trained extensively at NTC on Heavy Brigade force on force fighting using Combined Arms techniques - 25 years is a generation ago for the military.

I aint a expert. Just my gut feeling/opinion - with obviously some good ol patriotic bias thrown in.. I think in a non-nuclear "all out" war with Russia, our air(and naval) power would be a bit too much for them to handle. If they could stop us from gaining air superiority, things would get ugly for sure. The sheer amount of artillery Russia has been able to bring to bare is impressive... outright overwhelming.
Problem is I don't know if theres such thing as "all out" non-nuclear war. And to "beat" Russia(whatever that looks like- aside from marching on Moscow and consequently nukes getting thrown around), it would take a nationwide conscription level effort. And going up against Russia in their own backyard, after they've now fortified all their positions along the front with significant defense in depth, manned by now grizzled veteran hardboiled sons-a-bitches... it'd be a helluva learning curve adapting to that battlefield situation. Casualties like we ain't seen since WW2...

I aint a supporter of gaytoe NATO or this tard moneypit meatgrinder, but like it or not, it looks like we'll have overt boots on the ground there sooner or later. Hopefully it dont spell the end of all of us.

 

[Darayavaus]

So.. did this guy basically say the Russians have better shit. Pretty sure McGregor said a year ago that a gaggle of leopards was not going to make any difference. The leopards had shown some weaknesses during the Turkey coup attempt, and in Turkeys battles with Dash, and the Kurds.

he said the Panzers are overly complicated and prone to breaking down.
lol. where have I heard that before?

 

[Lightning8]

Nothing remarkably wrong with the Leopard2 - video just lays out the environment that is faced in a modern peer to peer fight. Mines, AT weapons, attack helicopters, artillery - that potentially will destroy or disable any fighting vehicle.

The "logistics" issue is real - the more modern and sophisticated the weapon system - the more sophisticated is the "logistics tail" to support these modern weapon systems. Expect to see "contractors" just behind the battlefield keeping all these complicated weapon systems operating, expect to see rebuild facilities popping up in neighboring countries.

 

[Eostech]

So.. did this guy basically say the Russians have better shit. Pretty sure McGregor said a year ago that a gaggle of leopards was not going to make any difference. The leopards had shown some weaknesses during the Turkey coup attempt, and in Turkeys battles with Dash, and the Kurds.

Leopard 2 is a good quality tank, considering that Saudi Arabia has probably lost more M1s to houthi rebels than the total number of leopards ever destroyed in combat it really depends on how the tanks are used.

The media played up tanks as a wonder weapon for Ukraine and they promptly got driven into a well fortified minefield, any tank ever made would have suffered the same fate.

Technology does however progress and there are active kill systems the will destroy missiles, thus presumably drones and even kinetic penetrators as well as advancements in reactive armour.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Leopard 2 is a good quality tank, considering that Saudi Arabia has probably lost more M1s to houthi rebels than the total number of leopards ever destroyed in combat it really depends on how the tanks are used.

The media played up tanks as a wonder weapon for Ukraine and they promptly got driven into a well fortified minefield, any tank ever made would have suffered the same fate.

Technology does however progress and there are active kill systems the will destroy missiles, thus presumably drones and even kinetic penetrators as well as advancements in reactive armour.

It's much easier to win the blow you up race than the you can't blow me up race.

Tanks are almost about to become obsolete these days if your enemy has decent anti-tank missiles, mines, defenses and drones or air assets.

The Ukrainians taught the Russians that lesson good and hard in the first year of the war with all the stuff we gave them.
The Russians got the point and are teaching the lesson to all the US stooges in the EU that are sending tanks.

 

[mosin46]

not an expert either but i think non nuc against russia is a big problem for US and/or nato. biden and the left have run out,kicked out most of our experienced,motivated troops and leaders. getting violent and brave during an uncontested blm riot is quite different from the sacrifices needed by US,GB,germany,japan,russia in WW2. miley and the current bunch of trans are not patton,manstein,yamashita,vatutin,nimitz etc. and it seems to me,that the russians have learned well and applied lessons from WW2. massive artillery like bagraton,defense in depth like kursk,the value of the counterstroke and they have learned that clearing mine fields with infantry is counterproductive. looks like the ukes have missed some of those lessons. we don't have close to the war making industrial power we had in 1944. moving an army from US to europe not the same as WW1/2. crossing the atlantic (or pacific) likely to be hotly contested and expensive. oh,it will be a short war? hitler and tojo thought same in 1939-41. plus how many division equivalent al queda,cartel,chinse fighters plus home grown gangs could be turned loose here? in ww1,ww2,vietnam,korea,iraq,afganistan we were pretty safe domestically for the most part. no longer and that doesn't count even non nuc missles,EMPs,etc.

 

[Eostech]

It's much easier to win the blow you up race than the you can't blow me up race.

Tanks are almost about to become obsolete these days if your enemy has decent anti-tank missiles, mines, defenses and drones or air assets.

The Ukrainians taught the Russians that lesson good and hard in the first year of the war with all the stuff we gave them.
The Russians got the point and are teaching the lesson to all the US stooges in the EU that are sending tanks.

I don’t entirely agree, almost every drone strike we’ve seen has been from another drone, ie the finder drone. That is an obvious weakness that can be targeted in multiple ways and something like the Israeli trophy system should deal with missiles, drones and artillery (not that detonating a 155mm shell in close proximity is going to be great.)

IFVs are already heavily used and auto-cannon calibers are getting bigger, auto-cannons can counter drones and helicopters running fancy electronic protection. (see the video of the Ukrainians trying to shoot down a KA-52 with an anti tank missile?) Current IFV’s lack the elevation and finding/targeting systems for this role however.

Lastly we have maybe 400k Ukrainian casualties so while a big metal box might be a target, it sure beats dying due to a tiny flake of shrapnel passing through your heart as an infantry soldier.

In the first day of the battle of the Somme the British took almost 60,000 casualties, infantry against artillery and machine guns doesn’t really work.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Lastly we have maybe 400k Ukrainian casualties so while a big metal box might be a target, it sure beats dying due to a tiny flake of shrapnel passing through your heart as an infantry soldier.

Well it seems the Ukranian stooges are doing plenty of that dying stuff, in a big metal box or on their feet, don't seem to matter.
It doesn't appear that their tank crews have any kind of survival rate...

 

[Sako man]

Well it seems the Ukranian stooges are doing plenty of that dying stuff, in a big metal box or on their feet, don't seem to matter.
It doesn't appear that their tank crews have any kind of survival rate...

To be fair, most tank crews get years upon years of training. I am betting that most of the Leopard crews had nothing more than some cursory training for a month or two. Doesn't matter how awesome the equiptment is at that point. These guys are getting sent to their certain deaths. I know as well the Russians have employed tactics from WW1 where by many Ukrainian tanks get stuck in a modified ditch, crude but effective.

Sadly we fucked around, and the Ukrainians have found out.

 

[sharac]

Sadly we fucked around, and the Ukrainians have found out.

Western civ. in general fucked around too much and for too long and it is in the process of finding out. Dynamics (for now) is just too slow for general lemming population to realize. Some do get it, some have had it for long time and some will get it as their hide gets next in line for skinning.
I followed with keen interest air power since 1990ish and had plenty o'discussion with similar "keen followers" from the US and UK about those "Soviet" gimmicks like cobras, high AOA, helmet mounted sights, thrust vectoring, serviceability, maint. vs flight hours, No. of sorties possible with one particular airframe etc... Now 30 years later i watch videos of aim9x slewed to HMD, F18 with high AOA nose authority, F22 with trust vectoring and all being sold as pinnacle of aerospace industry research and some kind of western domination in this sphere.
Problem with advertising is that in the west it has morphed into a way of life and for most there is no distinction between commercial on TV and reality hence such emotional responses from various persons when discussing technicals or stuff that is absolutely unrelated to one person that would warrant emotions.

Did you notice narrative change from "our supplies and weapons" will help Ukies fight and defend homeland to our technical equipment and know how simply cannot be effective due to Ukies being inept, unable to perform according to our training and how they don't have ownership of the sky/AD capability? Same things that several unbiased experts have been talking about since start of the SMO and initial incursion into the Ukie land. When Russians pulled in the north fanboys were shouting and cheerleading and now Ukies are to blame. IF anything Ukies have shown that (regardless of hatred as motivator and general nazi ideology) they are capable and competent soldiers who do quite well with limited resources that they have. And if you were to replace Ukies with American soldiers (don't know exactly where to find 300-500k capable from ~1,2M available but i digress) they would not fare much better especially considering potential inability of USAF to dominate skies. For all out war with general mobilization now we're talking a complete disaster for the west as average Joe would require two seats on a heavy lifter like C5 making logistics quite a nightmare, also MREx2 at least to keep Joe happy and well fed.


PS: Basic trench width i think would not be able to accommodate "the flow" of average Joe or Jane and would probably cause plenty of Benny Hill moments in the heat of battle.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Western civ. in general fucked around too much and for too long and it is in the process of finding out. Dynamics (for now) is just too slow for general lemming population to realize. Some do get it, some have had it for long time and some will get it as their hide gets next in line for skinning.
I followed with keen interest air power since 1990ish and had plenty o'discussion with similar "keen followers" from the US and UK about those "Soviet" gimmicks like cobras, high AOA, helmet mounted sights, thrust vectoring, serviceability, maint. vs flight hours, No. of sorties possible with one particular airframe etc... Now 30 years later i watch videos of aim9x slewed to HMD, F18 with high AOA nose authority, F22 with trust vectoring and all being sold as pinnacle of aerospace industry research and some kind of western domination in this sphere.
Problem with advertising is that in the west it has morphed into a way of life and for most there is no distinction between commercial on TV and reality hence such emotional responses from various persons when discussing technicals or stuff that is absolutely unrelated to one person that would warrant emotions.

Did you notice narrative change from "our supplies and weapons" will help Ukies fight and defend homeland to our technical equipment and know how simply cannot be effective due to Ukies being inept, unable to perform according to our training and how they don't have ownership of the sky/AD capability? Same things that several unbiased experts have been talking about since start of the SMO and initial incursion into the Ukie land. When Russians pulled in the north fanboys were shouting and cheerleading and now Ukies are to blame. IF anything Ukies have shown that (regardless of hatred as motivator and general nazi ideology) they are capable and competent soldiers who do quite well with limited resources that they have. And if you were to replace Ukies with American soldiers (don't know exactly where to find 300-500k capable from ~1,2M available but i digress) they would not fare much better especially considering potential inability of USAF to dominate skies. For all out war with general mobilization now we're talking a complete disaster for the west as average Joe would require two seats on a heavy lifter like C5 making logistics quite a nightmare, also MREx2 at least to keep Joe happy and well fed.


PS: Basic trench width i think would not be able to accommodate "the flow" of average Joe or Jane and would probably cause plenty of Benny Hill moments in the heat of battle.

Speaking of benny hill tunes...

 

[W54/XM-388]

Sadly we fucked around, and the Ukrainians have found out.

Those evil Ukrainian fascists deserve everything they are getting and more.

The Ukrainian government was all in with the Xidens on destroying our democracy and infiltrating our country.
Hell the Ukrainians have their own propaganda and pressure groups over here working overtime to attack anyone speaking the truth.

The Evil the Ukrainian government does in their own country makes Putin look good by comparison, and you have to be really evil to make Putin look good HA!

 

[theLBC]

 

[GreenGO Juan]

 

[232593]

This is will generate a response

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[Lightning8]

To be fair, most tank crews get years upon years of training. I am betting that most of the Leopard crews had nothing more than some cursory training for a month or two. Doesn't matter how awesome the equiptment is at that point. These guys are getting sent to their certain deaths. I know as well the Russians have employed tactics from WW1 where by many Ukrainian tanks get stuck in a modified ditch, crude but effective.

Sadly we fucked around, and the Ukrainians have found out.

What is the length of the average enlistment? 3 years? The NCOs may have "years upon years" of tank training but the crews are in constant turmoil with turnovers due to schooling (NCOs), injuries, discharges, transfers, etc. Add to that now pregnancy leave and trans surgeries - not a lot of stability in any crew whether tank or ship.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

What is the length of the average enlistment? 3 years? The NCOs may have "years upon years" of tank training but the crews are in constant turmoil with turnovers due to schooling (NCOs), injuries, discharges, transfers, etc. Add to that now pregnancy leave and trans surgeries - not a lot of stability in any crew whether tank or ship.

2 year enlistment, what a joke

Army expands short-term enlistment options

The U.S. Army has expanded its two-year enlistment options, making it easier for individuals who may not be comfortable making a four- or six-year commitment.

recruiting.army.mil

 

[Terry Cross]

The U.S. will be the first to deploy nukes in a peer/near peer conflict.

The U.S. has systematically weakened our entire force structure and is susceptible to a non-nuclear ass beating.

Huge drop in the physical and mental condition of our average military personnel as planned and executed by the powers that be.
Our adversary militaries are not fucking off valuable training time and resources to focus on gender equality, feelings and climate change.

I think our "tip of the spear" teams are still 110% but they will quickly take casualties ( mostly from piss poor top-down decisions ) that we do not have the pipeline to replenish.

Huge drop in MIC capacity to surge production of bread and butter items like small arms ammo, artillery, medical, mobile armor and even distilled petrol. . . . *Maybe we could buy our SPR back from China if we end up in a fight?
So even if we could muster the fieldable military manpower, we couldn't sustain their ability to defend or fight.

No backup or legacy systems while putting all eggs in one basket of reliance on GPS, data linked networks and other easily denied assets that would cut the legs out from under our effectiveness.

Public not willing to accept huge numbers of casualties even in an all out conflict.
I could go on for paragraphs . . . .

If the fuck heads running our country (nobody has a clue who that is ) get us into a head-to-head, non-proxy shooting war either on purpose or via incompetence we could easily be in an irrevocably bad situation within days or a week. Once that happens, the artificial face of our government will need to save face and hit the panic button.

At the point that our leadership intellectually justifies deployment of smaller tactical nukes, the same incompetent motherfuckers will try to act surprised when it is answered by multiple large artificial suns blossoming on something we consider important.


Either covertly as a false flag catalyst or overtly because we are losing, we will be the first to use things we shouldn't.


./

 

[Longshot231]

If this doesn’t frost your balls…

 

[GreenGO Juan]

This is will generate a response

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

According to TASS it was fireworks.

Sergiyev Posad plant blast caused by industrial mishap — authorities

"The blast was caused by a violation of technological processes," Sergey Pakhomov specified

tass.com

Then another article say-

MOSCOW, August 9. /TASS/. The Zagorsk optical and mechanical plant in Sergiyev Posad outside Moscow, despite its name, produces mainly pyrotechnics, Moscow Region Governor Andrey Vorobyev told reporters after the explosion that occurred in an adjacent area, according to the plant.

"We are inside the optical and mechanical plant, but this plant has long had nothing to do either with optics or mechanics. Here mainly pyrotechnics are produced," Vorobyev said.

The governor specified that the epicenter was "located exactly where the pyrotechnics are assembled."

"The rubble is being cleared up, and it is substantial," Vorobyev said. "The version about a drone has not been corroborated by law enforcement bodies as of now," Vorobyev emphasized, adding that there could be some people trapped under the rubble.

Sergiyev Posad plant makes pyrotechnics, governor clarifies after incident

The version about a drone attack being behind the explosion was not confirmed

tass.com

 

[Lightning8]

What is the length of the average enlistment? 3 years? The NCOs may have "years upon years" of tank training but the crews are in constant turmoil with turnovers due to schooling (NCOs), injuries, discharges, transfers, etc. Add to that now pregnancy leave and trans surgeries - not a lot of stability in any crew whether tank or ship.

I will add that since 9-11 and the Global War on Terror - tankers did not tank, arty did not arty, and so forth as the Army needed some form of Light Infantry/MP/Civil Affairs task organization to rotate in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan. The classic "force on force skills" vanished as for 10-20 years Army did not practice them plus all available funds consumed on GWOT and stuff for GWOT. As experienced leaders retire they are replaced with very experienced GWOT leaders who did very little of their "MOS" specific skills like Armor, Artillery, etc. Add to that the Army kept restructuring for a GWOT rotations which meant Brigades got smaller and less capable in order to have more "BCTs" to rotate in and out. The Combat Arms force multipliers like artillery and combat engineers were reduced.

What is Russia using to stop the Ukraine counteroffensive - lots of combat engineer emplaced obstacles overwatched by lots of artillery.

 

[232593]

According to TASS it was fireworks.

Sergiyev Posad plant blast caused by industrial mishap — authorities

"The blast was caused by a violation of technological processes," Sergey Pakhomov specified

tass.com

Then another article say-

MOSCOW, August 9. /TASS/. The Zagorsk optical and mechanical plant in Sergiyev Posad outside Moscow, despite its name, produces mainly pyrotechnics, Moscow Region Governor Andrey Vorobyev told reporters after the explosion that occurred in an adjacent area, according to the plant.

"We are inside the optical and mechanical plant, but this plant has long had nothing to do either with optics or mechanics. Here mainly pyrotechnics are produced," Vorobyev said.

The governor specified that the epicenter was "located exactly where the pyrotechnics are assembled."

"The rubble is being cleared up, and it is substantial," Vorobyev said. "The version about a drone has not been corroborated by law enforcement bodies as of now," Vorobyev emphasized, adding that there could be some people trapped under the rubble.

Sergiyev Posad plant makes pyrotechnics, governor clarifies after incident

The version about a drone attack being behind the explosion was not confirmed

tass.com

One source was reporting it as UK drones. IDK??

 

[GreenGO Juan]

One source was reporting it as UK drones. IDK??

I don't either.

Not that I trust tass with out question, but a building that houses explosives blowing up from an accident would not surprise me.

Also, that plant is located the other side of Moscow, about 40miles. If it was an Ariel strike, it would be the deepest strike yet of this conflict.

Thats around 350 miles from the Ru UKR border.

Not sure the cause, but it definitely blew up.

 

[fpgt72]

If this doesn’t frost your balls…

We did it before, for the british.

 

[mosin46]

total deaths? is the number of uke deaths believable? number thrown around is 350-400k,wonder how long this can last. we had about 420k,GB 380k,germany 5.5k,ussr 8 million,japan 2.1 million military deaths. civilian deaths in addition huge in europe,china etc. i know pops are higher so lower % but don't see how ukes can continue to absorb those numbers. globalists are happy anyway and losing a country they own might be OK for them if profits and plans continue going their way.

 

[fpgt72]

I am firm in the I have less then zero clue what is actually going on. I don't think any of us do. I question everything I see.

I do have a feeling that IF the Ukes are shooting "bombs" at Moscow that will not sit real well. A toddler that is pushing you finally gets annoying and you push back. He lands on his ass and runs screaming I gonna tell my dad.....dad being Joe.

The "west" does have experience the Russians and double the Chinese don't have. Last "big" deal the russians got messed up in was in the 80's, and that killed the USSR. China has scuffles with India and Vietnam and they don't come off real well. It is one thing to have all that stuff, it is another to keep it running for two weeks in the field.

I do think one thing however, this is very possible of getting very out of hand.

 

[Longshot231]

We did it before, for the british.

The difference was the Lend Lease agreement which was enacted and sign into law by congress and FDR. Private arms were voluntarily sent to England.

While I don't agree with it our elected congress critters have let Poopy Pants send them money and weapons which was not unlike Lend Lease of WWII.

What I don't like about this is that confiscated firearms are being sent to the Ukraine. That's the major difference.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

The "west" does have experience the Russians don't have.

I do think one thing however, this is very possible of getting very out of hand.

I don't think we have the experience anymore. The last major tank battle we had was in 1991. I don't know anyone still serving from then. I am sure maybe someone, I just don't know them as that was 32 years ago. We fought goat headers and insurgents over the last 20 years; we walked away looking bad. So, a lot of guys got out and others who are good at there jobs want out now too. Recruiting is so bad that they had to come up with a two year deal for people and they still can't make the numbers, not even close. The woke Army is destroying itself and young men who would normally join want nothing to do with it.

Things do seemed to be getting out of hand, so I hope I am wrong about the current military readiness.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

I don't think we have the experience anymore. The last major tank battle we had was in 1991. I don't know anyone still serving from then. I am sure maybe someone, I just don't know them as that was 32 years ago. We fought goat headers and insurgents over the last 20 years; we walked away looking bad. So, a lot of guys got out and others who are good at there jobs want out now too. Recruiting is so bad that they had to come up with a two year deal for people and they still can't make the numbers, not even close. The woke Army is destroying itself and young men who would normally join want nothing to do with it.

Things do seemed to be getting out of hand, so I hope I am wrong about the current military readiness.

The last major "tank" battle was F-111's bombing the shit out of Iraqi tanks. Look up the stats between F-111, and A10's. In total 3,300 Iraqi tanks(armored tracked vehicles) were destroyed. F-111 took out over 1500 of them A-10 was around 900. That is literally over 2/3's of the tanks destroyed to just 2 of the airforces platforms.

We have shifted away from Tank on Tank. It's going to be aircraft and long range precision muntions bombing tanks out side of surface to air defense range.

 

[theLBC]

 

[232593]

The last major "tank" battle was F-111's bombing the shit out of Iraqi tanks. Look up the stats between F-111, and A10's. In total 3,300 Iraqi tanks(armored tracked vehicles) were destroyed. F-111 took out over 1500 of them A-10 was around 900. That is literally over 2/3's of the tanks destroyed to just 2 of the airforces platforms.

We have shifted away from Tank on Tank. It's going to be aircraft and long range precision muntions bombing tanks out side of surface to air defense range.

All good points, however tanks still have valid role in combined arms doctrine.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

Poland sends extra troops to Belarus border – DW – 08/08/2023

Poland is stepping up border security in response to alleged provocations by Belarusian border guards. The presence of the Wagner mercenary group further complicates the situation.

www.dw.com

 

[GreenGO Juan]

All good points, however tanks still have valid role in combined arms doctrine.

Yeah, but they way they are being employed, charging across mined open fields into heavily defended positions, is border line suicide.

 

[232593]

Yeah, but they way they are being employed, charging across mined open fields into heavily defended positions, is border line suicide.

No argument there.

 

[Mr.BR]

 

[Im2bent]

Polandjust sent 3,000 soldiers to the Belarus border...

Must need to change a light bulb..... buh bum tish