Thinking out loud, a reticle for the OEM crew

[Lowlight]

So, after looking that the Riton, Arken, et al, recently I really dislike some of the reticles they use.

I get asked by the OEMs all the time about a SH reticle and normally the thinking is, nah, I don’t want my stuff in low cost scopes, but then after mulling over it for a few days I was thinking, what if, we helped them early and they didn’t have to sweat a reticle

I am thinking a simplistic hold over, well laid out, I have a plan, but not overly complec, no trying to reinvent the wheel.

I know what it should like like, do you think they it would be something along with a minor fee, no Horus $400, more like $50 and call it good

If you think about it further, when IOR used Scott to design a reticle on here it‘s all those years ago, it’s still used today, this site did a floating dot before any other scope outside the few benchrest versions with a dot.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

If you are making a reticle for the masses I’d keep it really and I mean REALLY simple.

If I were shilling away I’d focus more on the marketing and less on the actual reticle.

 

[pmclaine]

Would be a great option for the people on a budget.

Some of my funnest rifles to shoot are

1)cheap scoped @ $300

2)capped turrets probably wouldnt return to zero if I moved the adjustments

3)have a simple mil reticle that to increase distance I zeroed at a hold under and dial down magnification to double the holds.

Great for steel not so great if you want to brag about groups.

 

[Lowlight]

When you look at what is out there on the low end, the Reticles are terrible

an actual reticle you can shoot with is needed

 

[Choid]

If there were something like this, I would definitely buy for any higher end 22 I have, at the minimum.

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

When you look at what is out there on the low end, the Reticles are terrible

an actual reticle you can shoot with is needed

Vortex used to have a really awesome budget scope. The 2.5-10 HSLR w the XLR reticle. MSRP was $899 but they could be had for $400 all day. It was a FFP Scope.

It was a LOT of scope for the money and I still favor that on my “cheap hunting rifle”

It has/had a great drop reticle that wasn’t overly complicated. I also like how the holdover was marked AND matched to the dial. A shooter could choose to hold over or dial.

The Horus, while great, is useless for the masses and prob intimidating as well.

 

[beretta_man11]

When we say simplistic, does that mean something that isn't a christmas tree and back in line with the NF moar but with a dot?

 

[GUNNER10]

When you look at what is out there on the low end, the Reticles are terrible

an actual reticle you can shoot with is needed

Considering a lot of the responses in regards to recticles in higher end stuff, one would think that they are terrible as well.

 

[godofthunder]

Vortex used to have a really awesome budget scope. The 2.5-10 HSLR w the XLR reticle. MSRP was $899 but they could be had for $400 all day. It was a FFP Scope.

It was a LOT of scope for the money and I still favor that on my “cheap hunting rifle”

It has/had a great drop reticle that wasn’t overly complicated. I also like how the holdover was marked AND matched to the dial. A shooter could choose to hold over or dial.

Wish they still offered that scope. I had one and got rid of it in part of a trade but wish I would have kept it.

 

[Ironman308]

Like this.

 

[RayDBonz]

The one Ilya did for March is very nice, the FML-TR1.

 

[Dairyboy]

I just went through a search of scopes in the $1000 range and alot have some just oddly designed reticles. One that I really really liked is the Athlon APRS6 reticle. All .2 mil with a nice floating center dot and a Christmas tree that isn't too cluttered. Something like this on lower end scopes would be great!

 

[sheepdog697]

Simple and affordable would be nice. Maybe keep in in the range that would allow people to still use it in production NRL22.

 

[Lowlight]

the Second one is nice but even easier still

none of the early OEMs have anything refined it takes them about years to figure out a basic reticle

 

[DellaDog]

The one Ilya did for March is very nice, the FML-TR1.

Agreed. That or the Minox Mr4. (without the additional .1 grid )

 

[Jack Master]

I just went through a search of scopes in the $1000 range and alot have some just oddly designed reticles. One that I really really liked is the Athlon APRS6 reticle. All .2 mil with a nice floating center dot and a Christmas tree that isn't too cluttered. Something like this on lower end scopes would be great!View attachment 7593756

I've shot this reticle (Athlon APRS6). I REALY like it. It was simple, intuitive, quick and easy to see through. There are very minor things I would change (delete) but its one of the cleanest simple reticles I have shot

 

[Lowlight]

Just remember we can use any example but there is a reason these companies are no using these reticles

So you have to change the design slightly and make sure it's not an exact copy

but overall, yes a super simple XMAS tree is the best option, my question why is it missing

 

[THEIS]

Just remember we can use any example but there is a reason these companies are no using these reticles

So you have to change the design slightly and make sure it's not an exact copy

but overall, yes a super simple XMAS tree is the best option, my question why is it missing

Hi,

My guess would be because they cannot keep up with production/sales now even though they are using the "pick and choose" reticle options available from the OEM houses.

The market hasn't driven them to need better reticles??

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[D̷e̷v̷i̷l̷D̷o̷c̷A̷Z̷]

Just remember we can use any example but there is a reason these companies are no using these reticles

So you have to change the design slightly and make sure it's not an exact copy

but overall, yes a super simple XMAS tree is the best option, my question why is it missing

Marketing, copyrights and Shotshow.

I’m sure your PM2 w the PF4 reticle still tracks and puts hits where they should go.

Trijocons ACOG reticle still works.

It’s all about the next big thing. You know that.

 

[Long Range 338]

So are you thinking more along the lines of a reticle for competition or more of a practical use? Because the Xmas tree style reticles are great for PRS style shooting, if a guy need an all around field use reticle I would choose differently (thinking something like a Gen 2XR vs MSR style reticles). Assuming new shooters with a limited budget too much information can be overwhelming.

 

[usmc45]

I have always seen these OEM's try and do tree stuff but its in 2nd FP MOA and they want to half ass match a specific cartridge to it. Personally I dont think they know much about shooting. They are just manufacturers trying to make something they "think" the market wants. I dont know anything about making scopes or reticles so it could just be a cost thing.

Nothing wrong with .5 MIL marks either. I'm thinking more P4FL with tree and only a few reference numbers say 2 and 4.

 

[DellaDog]

Nothing wrong with .5 MIL

That's actually my primary complaint with the older March FML reticle. I use it extensively and .5 is just too wide for comfortable, accurate holds. Not sure why .25 is not used.

My other complaint is .1 is just too big for the center dot. Ilya's new style is .075 I believe, which is much better.
(Though I think .06 would be perfect)

 

[MK20]

Make the Christmas tree just one mil spaced dots. Also, a 1.7 m ranging feature in the scope somewhere would be really nice.

 

[Jack Master]

This is where I would go with it.
The center circle is the change from the first to the 2nd. I think the Circle draws the eye in.
0.2 on the main stadia.
0.5 in the christmas tree below
Very few marks above the main stadia and is starts at the 2 mil mark like @lowlight wants

 

[Lowlight]

Look at the reticles we have seen in the last 6 months

the market drives price, not quality until the price sets the company up for success or not

The issue is we see a lot of bad option on the street and designs are not being driven by use but more on repeating the same old or trying to make it "look" useful by making it busy

they feel more is better and can't tell you why decisions are made

 

[Lowlight]

those are perfect that @Jack Master posted

 

[Lowlight]

The only difference I would make is more above

You need at least 4 Mils at the top,

Good reason is the Kestrel Speed Drop, if you can't dial the offset you can use the reticle but you need a hold under

Hold under are useful for a lot of stuff

 

[anotherwannabe]

Is it meant for hunters or PRS shooters? for a hunter .5 marks are probably good, for PRS with smaller targets .5 isn't quite enough resolution.

The other things i've never understood is why we have trees that go down to 10 mil of hold over and out 10 mils on wind. I think most guys prefer to dial one or the other, imagine the kind of wind you're facing to need 8 mils of wind at any hunting or even PRS distance (ELR maybe) where you also think that hold overs are going to get you a hit.

Just like making the top of the reticle clear, I think you could drop anything below 6 mils from the reticle all together and limit the windage to <=4 (maybe even 2). that would cover 99.99% of shots people take and expect to make a first round hit.

 

[Jack Master]

 

[Jack Master]

Is it meant for hunters or PRS shooters? for a hunter .5 marks are probably good, for PRS with smaller targets .5 isn't quite enough resolution.

The other things i've never understood is why we have trees that go down to 10 mil of hold over and out 10 mils on wind. I think most guys prefer to dial one or the other, imagine the kind of wind you're facing to need 8 mils of wind at any hunting or even PRS distance (ELR maybe) where you also think that hold overs are going to get you a hit.

Just like making the top of the reticle clear, I think you could drop anything below 6 mils from the reticle all together and limit the windage to <=4 (maybe even 2). that would cover 99.99% of shots people take and expect to make a first round hit.

I agree with this too.
Who is holding over 10 mils? Why would you hold 10 mils when you could dial it
6 mils gets 308s to 700yds and 243s out to 800 yards.

I really think this is enough tree in the competitive world

 

[littlepod]

I agree with this too.
Who is holding over 10 mils? Why would you hold 10 mils when you could dial it
6 mils gets 308s to 700yds and 243s out to 800 yards.

I really think this is enough tree in the competitive world
View attachment 7593860

I regularly hold 7-8 mils for NRL22. So I'd go to at least 8. We have stages that shoot 50yd - 200yd, with transitions, so I never dial for those stages.

 

[anotherwannabe]

Why those .1's out at 7 windage? or the heavy black lines way out? Do those help people get their head straight on horizon? They just obscure if not.

I hadn't thought about NRL22 - good point on windage if thats your game. A little different than a 6 creed

 

[littlepod]

Why those .1's out at 7 windage? or the heavy black lines way out? Do those help people get their head straight on horizon? They just obscure if not.

I hadn't thought about NRL22 - good point on windage if thats your game. A little different than a 6 creed

.1's are used for ranging. So accurate measurement of the width of a target in mils, and then do the math to figure out how far the target is. Unknown Distance stages have been popping up here and there in matches.

 

[skl1]

I have always seen these OEM's try and do tree stuff but its in 2nd FP MOA and they want to half ass match a specific cartridge to it...... I dont know anything about making scopes or reticles so it could just be a cost thing.

Call me jaded, but I think they're trying to make sure you buy a separate scope for each rifle rather than swap one around.

I think a useful minimalist Christmas tree reticle on a less expensive scope would be great.

 

[Jack Master]

Why those .1's out at 7 windage? or the heavy black lines way out? Do those help people get their head straight on horizon? They just obscure if not.

I hadn't thought about NRL22 - good point on windage if thats your game. A little different than a 6 creed

0.1 is for ranging
The heavy black line further out are for when the first focal plane scope is on 5x. Then these are like normal stadia line a a duplex reticle. They also help draw your eye in quickly on 10x. Not everyone shoots on 25x all the time

 

[Longshot231]

I don't know if my comments will help or not but will try anyway. Whenever I purchase hardware, I've always tried to get the equipment to fit the mission.

Almost all of us on this forum are into the long range precision shooting. To us that means trying to hit a cell phone at 1,000 yards. Okay, I might exaggerate a little.

Nevertheless, we've seen the guys that produce YouTube videos of their rifles hitting really big plates at 600 yards versus some guys trying to hit something the size of a soccer ball at a mile.

For the guy just wanting to make a really big steel plate ring does he really need the "Christmas tree" reticle? On the other hand, I'm ready to throw the scope in the trash if it doesn't have the "Christmas tree" that lights up when I need it. To me, the second focal plane scopes no better than cheap little 3/4" Weavers. Yet to someone else with a different application the second focal plane scope is exactly what they need.

So designing a one-size-fits-all reticle may not be as marketable as one may think. I think that designing several reticles to fit the different applications should be the way to go. Maybe I'm wrong but that's just my two cents worth.

 

[6.5SH]

I agree with this too.
Who is holding over 10 mils? Why would you hold 10 mils when you could dial it
6 mils gets 308s to 700yds and 243s out to 800 yards.

I really think this is enough tree in the competitive world
View attachment 7593860

On the who would hold bit given the target device is lower end optics that would likely have turret/erector reliability issues and imprecise clicks this would be exactly the case where holding would be better.

 

[BLKWLFK9]

I love the reticle that @Jack Master posted except for the outter ring around the center dot. Everything else is perfect and i would buy a $3k scope with that reticle.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I have a Cabelas Covenant 5 that I think I picked up for $300 on sale. It was purchased because I wanted something inexpensive to go on a Remington 783 in 223 for fun but the combo has really surprised me.

It's a good general purpose reticle that I find simple to show newbies how to shoot at distance with

 

[JakeM]

Remove the center cross and make it a dot. Remove the measuring grid on the right. Add a tree on the bottom from 2 to 8. On top, put a number at every mil mark.

 

[beretta_man11]

View attachment 7593858
View attachment 7593859

@Jack Master , I like the center circle. How big is the center dot? I've sold scopes in the past that had a good dot but only usable for me at 27-30x. I'd really like a dot that is perfectly visible at 12-14x.

 

[Jack Master]

This would be my final design at this reticle.

This reticle has 4 mils above the horizontal main stadia with 0.1 milling bars in the top mil.
I kept the 9 mils of tree height but trimmed the edges of the tree a bit to limit the width. Could add a 10th line the same width as 8 mil if needed.
Circle or no circle is a big question. Some will hate it, some will like it. I could really go either way. I think the circle would make the reticle more useable on lower powers.

0.2 hash marks are 0.1 above and below the main stadia. (0.2 mil total)
1 mil hash marks are 2.5 mils above and below the stadia (0.5mil total)
Center dot is 0.05mil (3/16" at 100yds) - this could be changed if needed. (0.085 would be a 308 bullet at 100yds)
Tree dots are 0.1 at the full mil and 0.5 at the 1/2 mil

I struggle with not having something at the 1mil hold over tree mark. Adding just a 1 mil and 1/2 mil dot might help this area but I know Frank wants it open.

 

[Lowlight]

Ya that reticle is about perfect with the changes

The circle part I can go either way because it has the center dot and it gives it better definition outside the direct center.

You don't want those connected lines like the Tac 10, those things block impacts

 

[Lowlight]

You can put one of the smaller dots at the 1 mil mark but just one or even .5 if you think about it, at that distance .5 is pretty good

 

[fdkay]

Just remember we can use any example but there is a reason these companies are no using these reticles

So you have to change the design slightly and make sure it's not an exact copy

but overall, yes a super simple XMAS tree is the best option, my question why is it missing

I would say, since the MP-8 was labeled the "Snipers Hide" reticle, that means you own it.
It is also my favorite, simple reticle.

 

[Lowlight]

ya the members designed it, we never had anything to do with it,

and I didn't want to be associated with IOR so I never stepped up, it was the forum membership which is really how it should be, but calling it a SH reticle when the site is trademarked is bullshit

 

[BLKWLFK9]

This would be my final design at this reticle.

This reticle has 4 mils above the horizontal main stadia with 0.1 milling bars in the top mil.
I kept the 9 mils of tree height but trimmed the edges of the tree a bit to limit the width. Could add a 10th line the same width as 8 mil if needed.
Circle or no circle is a big question. Some will hate it, some will like it. I could really go either way. I think the circle would make the reticle more useable on lower powers.

0.2 hash marks are 0.1 above and below the main stadia. (0.2 mil total)
1 mil hash marks are 2.5 mils above and below the stadia (0.5mil total)
Center dot is 0.05mil (3/16" at 100yds) - this could be changed if needed. (0.085 would be a 308 bullet at 100yds)
Tree dots are 0.1 at the full mil and 0.5 at the 1/2 mil

I struggle with not having something at the 1mil hold over tree mark. Adding just a 1 mil and 1/2 mil dot might help this area but I know Frank wants it open.

View attachment 7593903View attachment 7593904

Fuckin win, dude! Thats it!

 

[Dairyboy]

Now that's a great reticle!!

I come from a different shooting background and use high end PCP airguns shooting birds and ground squirrels long range. With a 50yd zero, 150yds is 10MIL already. And with a BC of .03-.04 for decent pellets having a Christmas tree reticle is extremely beneficial. And airgunners have grown exponentially with the shortage of ammo and firearms. Would be very popular among them also.

 

[Lowlight]

It is the perfect starting point

 

[rydah]

This would be my final design at this reticle.

This reticle has 4 mils above the horizontal main stadia with 0.1 milling bars in the top mil.
I kept the 9 mils of tree height but trimmed the edges of the tree a bit to limit the width. Could add a 10th line the same width as 8 mil if needed.
Circle or no circle is a big question. Some will hate it, some will like it. I could really go either way. I think the circle would make the reticle more useable on lower powers.

0.2 hash marks are 0.1 above and below the main stadia. (0.2 mil total)
1 mil hash marks are 2.5 mils above and below the stadia (0.5mil total)
Center dot is 0.05mil (3/16" at 100yds) - this could be changed if needed. (0.085 would be a 308 bullet at 100yds)
Tree dots are 0.1 at the full mil and 0.5 at the 1/2 mil

I struggle with not having something at the 1mil hold over tree mark. Adding just a 1 mil and 1/2 mil dot might help this area but I know Frank wants it open.

View attachment 7593903View attachment 7593904

That’s pretty close to perfect and what every scope manufacturer should have as an option.

I’d just have the wind dots all 4 mils instead of taper out. The ranging sub tensions be between 1-2 mils because nothing more annoying trying to measure a target and doing it on the edges of the reticle. Remove the numbers at the top and make the rest of the numbers a tad smaller. Otherwise it’s mint.