Thinking out loud, a reticle for the OEM crew

[Lowlight]

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WInd dots JP{GFGHJCXVJKP{HGCXVK{}GCXV{}GCXP{}+XZCJPGFCXJP{}GFCH}|GCXV

 

[dirthead1]

@Jack Master LOVE the reticle! It's easy on the eyes and provides plenty of hold overs. I absolutely hate reticles that have .2 wind marks that alternate above and below the main stadia line. For some reason, it just does not mesh with my eyes and kind of gives me a headache. Just my personal preference.

Also, I kind of like the circle around the floating dot. Makes it much easier to see the center point on lower power. I could go either way on that, but overall, I love the reticle design.

 

[Jack Master]

Would you shoot this reticle? let us know what you think.

So after talking with frank and having a quick design meeting this is where we ended up. We added 2 small wind dots at the 1 mil holdover. This tree will handle most centerfire cartridge wind calls up to 20ish mph winds but still keep the reticle cleared up around the center aiming point.

We also kept the center circle. It draws the eye to it quickly as well as gives a defined 0.2 aiming cross to the right and the left of the center dot. It will also make the reticle easier to use on lower powers.

This reticle design is intended for newer shooters. We need something simple without the bells, whistles, and whizzbangs. I think we are getting there.

 

[dirthead1]

Would you shoot this reticle? let us know what you think.

So after talking with frank and having a quick design meeting this is where we ended up. We added 2 small wind dots at the 1 mil holdover. This tree will handle most centerfire cartridge wind calls up to 20ish mph winds but still keep the reticle cleared up around the center aiming point.

We also kept the center circle. It draws the eye to it quickly as well as gives a defined 0.2 aiming cross to the right and the left of the center dot. It will also make the reticle easier to use on lower powers.

This reticle design is intended for newer shooters. We need something simple without the bells, whistles, and whizzbangs. I think we are getting there.

View attachment 7594065

View attachment 7594066

Winner! And not just for the new shooter. I am not a competitive shooter or a new shooter. I like this reticle a lot. I’m going to be purchasing a new scope soon (probably a TT or another ZCO). If this reticle was offered from either of them, I would buy it.

 

[DellaDog]

Yes, but not a fan of the center circle.
IMO, if you make the center dot .06-.07 there’s no need for the circle.
You won’t like it when shooting paper. March tried something similar (an enclosed, open center) and it was a bust.

 

[Lowlight]

The circle draws your eye and gives you a finer .2 aiming point a the edge,

As well on lower power the circle will be easier to pick up as it draws the eye in

 

[Eustice]

The only difference I would make is more above

You need at least 4 Mils at the top,

Good reason is the Kestrel Speed Drop, if you can't dial the offset you can use the reticle but you need a hold under

Hold under are useful for a lot of stuff

Speed drops?!?! I heard someone say we should throw that fucking shit in the trash.

The reticles Jack Master posted look to be very useful. Not overly cluttered. What I would like to see would be about 2-4 mils above the horizontal with .2 marks or .1 mil marks alternating sides for Mil-ranging. Or a grid off to a corner with .1 mil marks offset. Like on a Nightforce Mil-R reticle. There’s an inverted T with 2 mils up and 1 Mil left and right with .1 mil marks. That works well for Mil-ranging without cluttering the rest of the reticle.

 

[Lowlight]

It's at the top of the 4 Mil mark, super easy

 

[jinxx4ever]

not a fan of the circle but i would b willing to give it a try

 

[Lowlight]

Think about lower power,

you are running and gunning 12x is better than 25x, so you'll want something to highlight that area

with some reticles even today I have to turn the illumination on to see this stuff better,

this is a ENTRY LEVEL Reticle

 

[jinxx4ever]

Think about lower power,

you are running and gunning 12x is better than 25x, so you'll want something to highlight that area

with some reticles even today I have to turn the illumination on to see this stuff better,

this is a ENTRY LEVEL Reticle

good point

 

[Lowlight]

and it's just different enough from the rest to not have issues with assholes who want to cry something was copied

everything has been copied

 

[opeagle]

I do like the circle. I do think that many center dots are smaller than they should be and like others pointed out are difficult to use at anything but almost max power.

 

[264win]

Love that reticle. Would buy it in just about any scope.
Like the circle as well, for ffp optics it really does help on lower power.

 

[dirthead1]

The more I look at it, the only slight change I would make is to move the section on the wind stadia with .1 mil increments in toward the center so that it’s visible at the high magnification. Maybe between 5 and 6 mils. If I’m going to measure with that section of the reticle, it will probably be at high mag.

 

[Lowlight]

You have no clue,

The thick stadia becomes the aiming point, you obviously don't shoot like the rest of use because you make no sense

if you are 80x maybe it's messed up on lower power, but 25x vs 12x your description makes little sense

these lines aren't super thick

 

[Lowlight]

most of us are shooting steel not Paper target trying to see lines on the page

 

[Lowlight]

The March I see with a circle is a 80x to like 42x so you have a giant swing to manage

I don't see a March reticle with a similar circle and a dot

 

[Lowlight]

Ok I saw that one,

Apples and Oranges

they have 3 Circle style reticles I saw

 

[winniedonkey]

Gen 2 mildot with floating dot, some wind holds for a few mils on the vertical axis.

 

[StrayDog]

@Jack Master I like the circle, I'd shoot it.
It's what Leica shoulda done with their PRS PRB: made the circle .2 wide with a .03--.04 dot in the center, well done.

 

[Steel head]

Would you shoot this reticle? let us know what you think.

So after talking with frank and having a quick design meeting this is where we ended up. We added 2 small wind dots at the 1 mil holdover. This tree will handle most centerfire cartridge wind calls up to 20ish mph winds but still keep the reticle cleared up around the center aiming point.

We also kept the center circle. It draws the eye to it quickly as well as gives a defined 0.2 aiming cross to the right and the left of the center dot. It will also make the reticle easier to use on lower powers.

This reticle design is intended for newer shooters. We need something simple without the bells, whistles, and whizzbangs. I think we are getting there.

View attachment 7594065

View attachment 7594066

Clean and simple
I like it.

 

[Bart]

Keep the circle, put it in a scope and sell it to me!

 

[blackblue]

My completly rookie opinion I like the circle.

 

[DellaDog]

“Apples and Oranges”

Concur.

I found the reticle I was referring to and it’s considerably smaller than I remembered and the one above.
I retract (and deleted) my clueless observations.

 

[Mike Casselton]

View attachment 7593858
View attachment 7593859

Your subtensions at 1 mil above and up to 4 mil are in 1/4 mil. Was that on purpose?
It also looks like the 1-4 above are only .8 mil total size.

0-1 mil above is the same as everything else.

 

[rhsc]

I agree with this too.
Who is holding over 10 mils? Why would you hold 10 mils when you could dial it
6 mils gets 308s to 700yds and 243s out to 800 yards.

I really think this is enough tree in the competitive world

This would be my final design at this reticle.

This reticle has 4 mils above the horizontal main stadia with 0.1 milling bars in the top mil.
I kept the 9 mils of tree height but trimmed the edges of the tree a bit to limit the width. Could add a 10th line the same width as 8 mil if needed.
Circle or no circle is a big question. Some will hate it, some will like it. I could really go either way. I think the circle would make the reticle more useable on lower powers.

0.2 hash marks are 0.1 above and below the main stadia. (0.2 mil total)
1 mil hash marks are 2.5 mils above and below the stadia (0.5mil total)
Center dot is 0.05mil (3/16" at 100yds) - this could be changed if needed. (0.085 would be a 308 bullet at 100yds)
Tree dots are 0.1 at the full mil and 0.5 at the 1/2 mil

I struggle with not having something at the 1mil hold over tree mark. Adding just a 1 mil and 1/2 mil dot might help this area but I know Frank wants it open.

View attachment 7593903View attachment 7593904

Just an FYI, but your concept without the center circle is similar to Sightron's MIL-HASH-H reticle -



Still not sure yet which one I prefer, but it's darn close. I really like your open top design. Well done, sir.

 

[kennyg]

Nice work Jack, I like it. I would pick the option with the center circle. If someone like SWFA put this in their fixed power line of scopes, I think they would sell a lot of them.

 

[gonzaga]

One of my favorite reticles is the NF MLR2, but I wish there was a hold in between the .5 mil and the cross hairs, and a .75 hold too.
I like the circle idea mentioned above.
Good aiming reference especially if your rifle is a dual purpose weapon...

 

[koshkin]

Jack's reticle looks very reasonabe.

A couple of general comments: thin circle in the center might be pushing the limits of lithography. Depending on the scope design there is a limit on how thin of a line you can make in terms of angular units.

When I needed to make a reticle for a sub-$1k scope, I came up with a design that became Meopta's MRAD (attached).

If I were to revisit it, I would extend the vertical a little higher. Since that design came about, I started adding a reference point about 4-5 mrad above center (March reticles I designed are more recent, but are also aimed at a fairly high end user).

Another change I would make is remove some of the half-mrad dots. Maybe only keep the ones near the center so that the tree looks less cluttered.

If you guys think this will work, I can sketch one up.

The center dot in this one is 0.06mrad and the four short 0.2mrad long hashes are there so that when you go to lower power it looks like a small cross. If it is just a dot I tend to lose it.

The way the dimension on this one are, it is intended for something like a 5-25x, 6-24x, 5-30x, etc riflescopes and the base dimension is 0.2mrad.

For something like a 3-12x or 4-16x, I would probably go with a more sparse tree that is based on 0.5 mrad instead. Jack's reticle is near perfect for that if the lithography can pull it off and if it is not too thin on low power.

ILya

 

[Jack Master]

Your subtensions at 1 mil above and up to 4 mil are in 1/4 mil. Was that on purpose?
It also looks like the 1-4 above are only .8 mil total size.

0-1 mil above is the same as everything else.

Damn! Yep. I'll fix that tomorrow morning. Thanks for catching it.

 

[gonzaga]

How do we sign up to be the testers of these new scopes.
I'll volunteer....just saying

 

[Jack Master]

Just an FYI, but your concept without the center circle is similar to Sightron's MIL-HASH-H reticle -

View attachment 7594191

Still not sure yet which one I prefer, but it's darn close. I really like your open top design. Well done, sir.

The only thing similar between that one and ours is the 0.2 hashes on the horizontal stadia. Everything else is different. Above is different and the tree below is WAY different.
I see some pretty big differences. The biggest being the more open tree we are doing with just the full and half mill dots rather than the 2 tenths. This is so you can see you bullet impact better. And we limited the tree to what shooters might actually use. Who uses a 2 mil wind hold at 1 mil holdover? that's a 35mph wind with a 308.

 

[rhsc]

The only thing similar between that one and ours is the 0.2 hashes on the horizontal stadia. Everything else is different. Above is different and the tree below is WAY different.
I see some pretty big differences. The biggest being the more open tree we are doing with just the full and half mill dots rather than the 2 tenths. This is so you can see you bullet impact better. And we limited the tree to what shooters might actually use. Who uses a 2 mil wind hold at 1 mil holdover? that's a 35mph wind with a 308.

Seriously, calm down. I see all those differences too. Just wanted to point out that you haven't really re-invented the wheel and if you are thinking about patenting your design you might run into some difficulty.

As someone who's most serious focus is on hunting, I really like what you did with your reticle as it's a good, clean, simple design. Friend, we're not that far apart.

 

[jLorenzo]

Like this. View attachment 7593720

mil number right next to the vertical stadia is retarded. What if your holding over and need .2-.5 on the right side of the stadia? your holding right on a number. This drives me crazy with the vortex stuff.

 

[Alpine 338]

@Jack Master I like where your reticle has evolved, except the circle. I would increase the size of the floating dot, or maybe make it a floating circle (donut) .05 to 0.1-mil diameter with a very tiny dot in the center? With a FFP, it will have a precise dot at higher power, and at lower power it will look like a bigger dot.

Even though I personally favor .5 mil hash marks over .2 mil, I can live with the simplicity you have designed into it.

Your design for the Christmas tree aspect of the reticle is the best, and most simple I have ever seen, as having an uncluttered view is important, and most Christmas tree reticles obscure your view. My favorite reticle so far with tree is the Tremor 2 because of its uncluttered view compared to most others.

My favorite reticle is the original MSR, and for me it almost perfect.

 

[jLorenzo]

This one is almost perfect except Im not crazy about the dots on the main windage stadia, would rather have hash marks. I like the chevron because at the tip its infinitely small.

 

[Meety Peety]

@Jack Master just for curiosity's sake could we see what it looks like with no circle but with hash marks at the .2?

 

[Slab74]

For someone who is just getting into this stuff, I really like the boxed in center dot. I have a sightron that has a center dot and I like it. I own a Nightforce that has a floating crosshair and I would prefer a dot. This whole experiment is based on lower end scopes, so high end guys will not be using them. This means that newbies like me need a useful reticle that draws the eye to the center and is clear enough to be useful to people who want to get started in longer range shooting. Shooting long range is a process, so something that helps people along without breaking the bank would be a positive thing. Don’t kill the process by asking too much for the targeted buyer.

 

[Khlit]

Something like the zcomp mpct3 reticle without the fatal funnel would be pretty awesome im a fan of the hollow dots but would probably not use them in the main vertical stadia and go with a more traditional approach.

​

 

[Dobermann]

@lowlight: Thanks for kicking this off!

I appreciate that it's an 'entry level reticle' ... my only .02 would be a wish that it only appeared on scopes with strong reliability/repeatability - I reckon it would be really important to not tarnish the reticle in a less-than reliable overall scope design.

Something simple but bombproof would work for me - such as the tried and tested SWFA or the old NXS lines ... seems like part of the issue with the rash of new OEM scopes is not only the clunky reticles, but also the lack of reliability, because that's not what most brands have wanted to prioritise in the past ...

 

[DJL2]

I don’t own a ton of optics...most of them don’t have a Christmas tree and that doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I’m shopping for another right now, it probably won’t have a Christmas tree. If I’m the target market, or perhaps a little above it, you can skip the tree...or simplify it to the point that it doesn’t make me cringe when I look through the scope. I don’t need a flash back to math class every time I put a gun on target.

As a general thing, I think most trees have waaaaaaay too much height/depth. If I wanna hold for a 1600 yard shot using my 50 yd zero, they’re perfect. Except that’s f’ing stupid. The guy that just made a 4000+ yd impact stated he was holding in space....seeming to imply that you can shoot stuff roughly three miles away without a tree and using significant hold over/off.

ETA:
I think @Jack Master puts forth some pretty useable options here...this thing really gained speed, feels like they all dropped in there in the time it took me to type this. I like the simplicity of those designs.

 

[erwos]

I can understand the logic having a royalty fee for an official "SnipersHide Christmas Special" branded reticle, but if you want to really change the industry, you're better off coming up with some exceptional reticles and then just licensing them out royalty-free.

 

[flyfisher117]

A reticle like that is exactly what I am searching for in my next scope..
Currently using an old Vortex EBR 2C. Love the simplicity but hate the half mil hash marks on main elevation and windage. Then in the christmas tree they switch to 1/4 mil windage dots.

 

[Lowlight]

Jack's reticle looks very reasonabe.

A couple of general comments: thin circle in the center might be pushing the limits of lithography. Depending on the scope design there is a limit on how thin of a line you can make in terms of angular units.

When I needed to make a reticle for a sub-$1k scope, I came up with a design that became Meopta's MRAD (attached).

If I were to revisit it, I would extend the vertical a little higher. Since that design came about, I started adding a reference point about 4-5 mrad above center (March reticles I designed are more recent, but are also aimed at a fairly high end user).

Another change I would make is remove some of the half-mrad dots. Maybe only keep the ones near the center so that the tree looks less cluttered.

If you guys think this will work, I can sketch one up.

The center dot in this one is 0.06mrad and the four short 0.2mrad long hashes are there so that when you go to lower power it looks like a small cross. If it is just a dot I tend to lose it.

The way the dimension on this one are, it is intended for something like a 5-25x, 6-24x, 5-30x, etc riflescopes and the base dimension is 0.2mrad.

For something like a 3-12x or 4-16x, I would probably go with a more sparse tree that is based on 0.5 mrad instead. Jack's reticle is near perfect for that if the lithography can pull it off and if it is not too thin on low power.

ILya

I don't like your reticle you have design flourishes which waste time and distract

we can drop the circle too many crying

Ted Drop the circle

 

[Lowlight]

This one is almost perfect except Im not crazy about the dots on the main windage stadia, would rather have hash marks. I like the chevron because at the tip its infinitely small.

If this is peoples idea of perfect we have no hope LOL

wow ...

 

[Bantam1]

The circle makes a lot of sense at lower power in the FFP. I like the reticle and find it to have everything you would need for most applications. Simple and efficient.

 

[Lowlight]

Today it only takes a few loud voices to ruin something

so rather than have it, better to just remove it

 

[Secant]

Plot didn't come out super clean, but here's a first go at it.

 

[Jack Master]

To @koshkin point the lines might have to get thicker than what I have drawn them to make the lithography work. Each of the reticles below have a thicker line weight to simulate what this will look like.

Circle or No Circle (or Box or Point)​

I want you guys to see the reticle at lower power to understand what that center circle is doing for a 1st focal plane. Each of the views we have been looking at are about 16x (12 mils wide) and then 25x (8mils wide)

Remember this is a design for OEMs that ENTRY LEVEL! not top 20 Competition users. Fellas the will be hunting with thier optics too. As a Brand new Shooter looking for your first scope what did you look for?

From the comments I see new shooters say they like the circle and competition snobs hate it.

Here are 3 examples of what we could do. Circle - 0.2 Hash mark (Box) or just the end of the line (point) on 8 or 10x

Circle 8-10x​

Box 8-10x​

Point 8-10x​

Circle - 25x​

Box 25x​

Point 25x​

In the end the center circle is a fine aiming point on lower magnifications, its a 0.2 reference at higher magnifications. No one likes it because its not what you are used to seeing. You might have though different on Day 1.