Thorroclean & Bronze Brush Bore Cleaning Result.

[Ronin22]

Anyone that’s concerned with bore/barrel cleaning has read or read parts of the quite dynamic but turned a bit dumpster fire thread @Frank Green put out about abrasive product use for barrel cleaning. There’s been a couple other threads pop up lately in addition.

I get that Frank had a valid concern & appreciate his thoughts & advice on the matter. What I got from the thread is Frank didn’t have a control barrel by which to fully support the hypothesis that abrasive cleaners ruin barrels.

Back in 23’ I got a new Benchmark barrel and began cleaning from the start with Thorroclean. I cleaned after 5,20,50,100rnds and then every 100rnds thereafter. Throw in some end of season cleanings too.

The barrel has been cleaned with Thorroclean about 12-15 times in 1000-1200rnds. Dewey no harm oversized for caliber brushes. That takes out the carbon ring same time as the bore cleaning.

So, I wanted to experiment with a pristine new custom barrel, cleaned with standard process of barrel cleaning, not some weirdo with a drill.

Here is the before/new barrel groups, the first 15rnds fired, 3 five round groups out of the barrel:

10rnd group fired last week and after the 12-15 cleanings & 1000rnds with Thorroclean:

 

[oldrifleman]

What a twitt, Frank has seen more of that shit in a year than you will ever think about. Adding another thread to justify your love Affair with this crap is showing need for endless attention. Another ignore in the books

 

[Ronin22]

What a twitt, Frank has seen more of that shit in a year than you will ever think about. Adding another thread to justify your love Affair with this crap is showing need for endless attention. Another ignore in the books

I’m glad you are ignoring. It would be nice to have a reasonable & adult conversation about the matter without you.

You’re right though on one point, I do have a love affair with the product because it’s an absolute game changer vs all other cleaning products on the market. When I find something that works good, I’ll get the word out.

 

[KYAggie]

Do you have pictures of the bore when it was new and pictures now? We can see it shoots well, but what’s the bore look like? . Sarcasm font off…..

 

[DM1975]

Thanks for the info. I’m gonna have to give it a try myself. It is funny to see people’s minds close up about it though. Not only that but also come to the thread just to insult you and then make a proclamation about ignoring the post lol.

 

[Ronin22]

Thanks for the info. I’m gonna have to give it a try myself. It is funny to see people’s minds close up about it though. Not only that but also come to the thread just to insult you and then make a proclamation about ignoring the post lol.

Granted none of us are bonafide scientists, but at least trying to adhere to even the most modicum of the definition will help keep clarity.

 

[DM1975]

View attachment 8654607

Granted none of us are bonafide scientists, but at least trying to adhere to even the most modicum of the definition will help keep clarity.

Negative! Earth is flat, the pyramids were built by aliens, and ThorroClean will ruin your barrel. How dare you question things!

 

[Ronin22]

Negative! Earth is flat, the pyramids were built by aliens, and ThorroClean will ruin your barrel. How dare you question things!

Cause I call a spade a spade

 

[Frank Green]

Well per se we/I didn’t have a control barrel….

Guys in the shop have wrecked their own barrels with an abrasive and a brush. Ask Mark in the office. He currently holds two world records in BR and has held others. He will tell you for fact… at a match he cleaned his new barrel one time with a brush and Iosso bore paste and going back to the line for the next relays… it didn’t shoot the same. Got back to the shop and we bore scoped it…. Yep… damaged.

Also we’ve seen plenty of barrels that came in from customers and the damage is pretty blatant.

Also you can use an abrasive cleaner too much/be to aggressive and basically your polishing the bore smoother and smoother which can lead to a copper fouling situation. Usually once that starts…. You can’t reverse it.

 

[Frank Green]

Again guys it goes back to…. What your using and how your using it that we don’t have any control over. One guy used a different brand or a different technique vs the next guy.

Just too many variables.

 

[mark5pt56]

View attachment 8654607

Granted none of us are bonafide scientists, but at least trying to adhere to even the most modicum of the definition will help keep clarity.

Based on the above, it appears Frank and crew have it covered, especially from the match experiences and sheer volume at the shop. The last time I checked, he is using the English language.

 

[Ronin22]

Based on the above, it appears Frank and crew have it covered, especially from the match experiences and sheer volume at the shop. The last time I checked, he is using the English language.

If I didn't think he had it covered I wouldn't buy his barrels! I'm not saying Frank doesn't know what he's doing, but the question remains why isn't my barrel toast? Is there a certain procedure that's ruining barrels with abrasives, or the type of abrasive used? This isn't a "Call out" thread for chest beating and smooth brains to stomp in and think they have to defend something or someone. Again, I reiterate that it would be good to apply the principles of the scientific method to form conclusions based upon the testing & evidence to identify any harmful variables in this cleaning method.

 

[Frank Green]

I have pic's on my flash drive but it's at home. I have the customers barrel here and it's one of them I use for a show and tell. I/we have a few here that we keep for show and tell.

Anyways it's a 308win barrel. Our barrel. The gunsmith that built the gun for the customer was Pierce Eng. and they reached out to me when the barrel wouldn't shoot all of a sudden. The customer cleaned the rifle one time... with Witch's Brew and a brush. He took a full .001" of material out of the bore of the barrel. Barrel only has 500 rounds on it. Now junk.

Dave Tooley and I have talked about this a lot. He has a Lilja 30cal barrel he fitted up for a customer in 30BR. The gun shot 1/2" groups at 200 yards. Shot a total of 250 rounds on it. The shooter cleaned it one time with Flitz and a brush. Now it would only shoot 2" groups at 200 yards.

So......

 

[Ronin22]

I have pic's on my flash drive but it's at home. I have the customers barrel here and it's one of them I use for a show and tell. I/we have a few here that we keep for show and tell.

Anyways it's a 308win barrel. Our barrel. The gunsmith that built the gun for the customer was Pierce Eng. and they reached out to me when the barrel wouldn't shoot all of a sudden. The customer cleaned the rifle one time... with Witch's Brew and a brush. He took a full .001" of material out of the bore of the barrel. Barrel only has 500 rounds on it. Now junk.

Dave Tooley and I have talked about this a lot. He has a Lilja 30cal barrel he fitted up for a customer in 30BR. The gun shot 1/2" groups at 200 yards. Shot a total of 250 rounds on it. The shooter cleaned it one time with Flitz and a brush. Now it would only shoot 2" groups at 200 yards.

So......

So, what am I doing right that this barrel has survived 10-12 cleanings with Thorroclean? Not only survived, but still shooting bug holes. That is what I'd like to identify and possibly separate from the one & done toast jobs. Is it that Thorroclean used as instructed is a safe abrasive?

 

[Frank Green]

So, what am I doing right that this barrel has survived 10-12 cleanings with Thorroclean? Not only survived, but still shooting bug holes. That is what I'd like to identify and possibly separate from the one & done toast jobs.

That's the million dollar question I cannot answer.

Why does one guy not have a problem but the next guy does?

Are you using a bronze brush or a nylon brush?



A ammo maker called me last year some time.... and his exact words were...."Hey we are trying to cut down on scrubbing time (cleaning)." What do you think about using a stainless steel brush and even an abrasive. I said.... Don't do it. Your asking for it! Then I said... on 2nd thought... knock yourself out. You will be buying double the amount of barrels!

Another bullet maker told me.. if they feel the need to clean a barrel with an abrasive (think they use JB if I recall correctly) only one guy... again only one guy is allowed to clean the barrel with the compound. All the other guys in the ballistic lab are not allowed to touch the stuff.

 

[OREGUN]

The thing about the scientific method and experimental design are that it/they include control groups and experimental groups and more importantly, test the results against generally accepted statistical analysis methods to determine the significance of the results. So what you have there, in the absence of any such controls or analysis, is anecdotal evidence.

What are you doing right? Possibly nothing except getting lucky.

Can your result be reproduced by another experimenter? We don’t actually know because you didn’t control enough variables and communicate those controls to us (another aspect of experimental design and the SM). Is your result provocative of additional experimentation? Only anecdotally because your data set is so small as to leave significant doubt regarding any conclusion you posit and your test therefore fails to advance our understanding (in other words, we have to start all over again to learn anything real).

It’s cool that you shot three small groups and used thorroclean. It sounds like you are being reasonable and gentle in your methods which it also sounds like SOME of the barrel-damagers weren’t. Do whatever you want with your barrels and your abrasive cleaners. Best of luck to you in your quest to maintain a spotlessly clean barrel.

 

[Potsy]

My .22BR Bartlein has around 1300 rounds on it. It started acting screwy.

Now my cleaning regimen is not the most disciplined or regular. I figured I had a carbon ring.

Gave it a thorough going through with Hoppes (to start getting the chunks out) Bore Tech Eliminator and Bore Tech Carbon remover. Then took it to a buddy of mine who has a bore scope.

No discernable carbon ring, but the middle third (more or less) of the barrel was nasty. He had been using Thoro Clean on his (with no ill effects) and we used it on mine. It drug out garbage the vaunted Bore Tech hadn’t touched. Got it very clean.

Haven’t done much more with it than foul it and re-zero (.3 at 100 is about as good as I can hold, and that’s what she did), and play with it to 300 (been stupid windy here). Seems okay so far.

I don’t think I’d Thoro Clean on routine cleanings, but for getting out stubborn chunks every thousand rounds, it seems like an option. I have an AR barrel that is crying out for this treatment.

I will say I followed the Bore Tech instructions a few times over and let it sit over night on that barrel and patches were coming out close to white. Color me unimpressed. I’m now on the hunt for something better (and, yes, cleaning more often wouldn’t hurt either).

 

[Tokay444]

Well per se we/I didn’t have a control barrel….

Guys in the shop have wrecked their own barrels with an abrasive and a brush. Ask Mark in the office. He currently holds two world records in BR and has held others. He will tell you for fact… at a match he cleaned his new barrel one time with a brush and Iosso bore paste and going back to the line for the next relays… it didn’t shoot the same. Got back to the shop and we bore scoped it…. Yep… damaged.

Also we’ve seen plenty of barrels that came in from customers and the damage is pretty blatant.

Also you can use an abrasive cleaner too much/be to aggressive and basically your polishing the bore smoother and smoother which can lead to a copper fouling situation. Usually once that starts…. You can’t reverse it.

Maybe that one barrel was just bad and super soft. Was that the only time he had ever cleaned a barrel in that manner?
I do understand a smoother surface resulting in more friction.

 

[Frank Green]

Maybe that one barrel was just bad and super soft. Was that the only time he had ever cleaned a barrel in that manner?
I do understand a smoother surface resulting in more friction.

No it was not soft at all. Also it's not the only time we've seen it happen.

 

[Frank Green]

No it was not soft at all. Also it's not the only time we've seen it happen.

We've been lucky a few times where we gave the barrel a light finish lap and was able to stop the fouling and the barrels would then hold accuracy with no issues. I'll tell you though we have a 50/50 chance in saving one. It's not a guarantee.

 

[Frank Green]

Can your result be reproduced by another experimenter?

Good point.

I use this pic a lot. The shooter was honest and told us exactly how he was cleaning the barrel. Using KG2 bore paste, a bronze brush and how often.

Not only did two gunsmiths (one of whom installed the barrel for the customer) replicate his process and we did as well.

End result was the same.

 

[Ronin22]

The thing about the scientific method and experimental design are that it/they include control groups and experimental groups and more importantly, test the results against generally accepted statistical analysis methods to determine the significance of the results. So what you have there, in the absence of any such controls or analysis, is anecdotal evidence.

What are you doing right? Possibly nothing except getting lucky.

Can your result be reproduced by another experimenter? We don’t actually know because you didn’t control enough variables and communicate those controls to us (another aspect of experimental design and the SM). Is your result provocative of additional experimentation? Only anecdotally because your data set is so small as to leave significant doubt regarding any conclusion you posit and your test therefore fails to advance our understanding (in other words, we have to start all over again to learn anything real).

It’s cool that you shot three small groups and used thorroclean. It sounds like you are being reasonable and gentle in your methods which it also sounds like SOME of the barrel-damagers weren’t. Do whatever you want with your barrels and your abrasive cleaners. Best of luck to you in your quest to maintain a spotlessly clean barrel.

Can I hire you to talk to my ex-wife like that!? That level of condescension is on point!
I also recall there being bias control in experimentation, so if you think my ongoing experiment & observations are total trash then what must you think of Frank's conclusion? BTW, I've a barrel being chambered as we speak. I plan to keep the same cleaning method. With whom do I report my processes to so that my next barrel can be considered a proper experiment by which to draw conclusions?

 

[Ronin22]

Good point.

I use this pic a lot. The shooter was honest and told us exactly how he was cleaning the barrel. Using KG2 bore paste, a bronze brush and how often.

Not only did two gunsmiths (one of whom installed the barrel for the customer) replicate his process and we did as well.

End result was the same.

View attachment 8654892

You mention other products, but is there any evidence that specifically Thorroclean caused damage? We could be comparing peaches to bananas here! Lol

 

[KYAggie]

Good point.

I use this pic a lot. The shooter was honest and told us exactly how he was cleaning the barrel. Using KG2 bore paste, a bronze brush and how often.

Not only did two gunsmiths (one of whom installed the barrel for the customer) replicate his process and we did as well.

End result was the same.

View attachment 8654892

Looks almost as bad as my factory Savage barrel did before I ran Tubbs bullets down it. It shoots a little bit better and fowls a little bit less now, but I’m not sure it was worth the effort. My experience has been, so far, that the more I pay for a barrel, the easier it is to clean. I haven’t had to use JB and Kroil on any of my custom barrels, I only use Boretech Eliminator, CR4, and Slip2000EWL for lube, and they are a dream to clean. I have been known to use JB, sparingly and only on a Kroil soaked patch with a jag, not a brush, on my Savage and Faxon quality barrels. I almost never use a brush, even nylon, even on the lower quality barrels.

@Ronin22 I was half serious half joking about bore scope pictures. I would love to see a before and after use pics if you have them. The joke part was because so many people freak out about how their bore looks and it doesn’t really matter unless the rifle is shooting patterns instead of groups.

 

[Ronin22]

Looks almost as bad as my factory Savage barrel did before I ran Tubbs bullets down it. It shoots a little bit better and fowls a little bit less now, but I’m not sure it was worth the effort. My experience has been, so far, that the more I pay for a barrel, the easier it is to clean. I haven’t had to use JB and Kroil on any of my custom barrels, I only use Boretech Eliminator, CR4, and Slip2000EWL for lube, and they are a dream to clean. I have been known to use JB, sparingly and only on a Kroil soaked patch with a jag, not a brush, on my Savage and Faxon quality barrels. I almost never use a brush, even nylon, even on the lower quality barrels.

@Ronin22 I was half serious half joking about bore scope pictures. I would love to see a before and after use pics if you have them. The joke part was because so many people freak out about how their bore looks and it doesn’t really matter unless the rifle is shooting patterns instead of groups.

Oh no, I was picking up what you were throwing down, I was laughing with you! Last night I cleaned it and I'll try to get some photos showing anything of merit either way. Though, as your joke is ironically right, the thing sure don't shoot like there's any damage!

 

[KYAggie]

Oh no, I was picking up what you were throwing down, I was laughing with you! Last night I cleaned it and I'll try to get some photos showing anything of merit either way. Though, as your joke is ironically right, the thing sure don't shoot like there's any damage!

Neither does my 1898 30-40 Krag, it shoots great, not like your barrel, but for open sights and cheap bullets, it’s amazing. Looking at the bore with a bore scope would take years off most guys on the hide’s lives, it’s remarkable rough. One never knows until one sees.

 

[Ronin22]

Neither does my 1898 30-40 Krag, it shoots great, not like your barrel, but for open sights and cheap bullets, it’s amazing. Looking at the bore with a bore scope would take years off most guys on the hide’s lives, it’s remarkable rough. One never knows until one sees.

I went through a milsurp phase in the 2000s. I got really lucky with most having shiny bores, but there were a couple that blew me away how well that shot all dark and pitted! Presently, I am a glutton for punishment and don't shy away from Savage barrels with all their copper mining concentric chatter rings through the bore. I've got a couple that bug hole like mad. That actually shakes my belief that copper is the culprit of bad precision. How the hell can a Savage barrel shoot so well then? LOL

 

[37L1]

You mention other products, but is there any evidence that specifically Thorroclean caused damage? We could be comparing peaches to bananas here! Lol

I don't think there is anything one could say that would change your mind. It's been working for you, that should be good enough.

I've used it but only on an aging barrel to keep it going longer. The firecracking made it a copper mine but that freaking thing would shoot. Go figure. . . 3,500 on a Bartlein 6.5 Creedmoor and it was still going when I pulled it off, didn't want it to finally give up the ghost in a match, but I've still got it if I ever get the notion to put it back on, LOL.

 

[OREGUN]

Can I hire you to talk to my ex-wife like that!? That level of condescension is on point!
I also recall there being bias control in experimentation, so if you think my ongoing experiment & observations are total trash then what must you think of Frank's conclusion? BTW, I've a barrel being chambered as we speak. I plan to keep the same cleaning method. With whom do I report my processes to so that my next barrel can be considered a proper experiment by which to draw conclusions?

Bud, you’re the one who trotted out the scientific method for your one-off “test”. I don’t think Mr. Green’s data is scientifically valid either but he’s not making that claim. Keep doing whatever you want. The fact that you think that one barrel (this one or the next) produces some kind of generalizable test result that could inform any broad population of barrel-cleaners tells us everything we need to know. All we see is that you had some success using some unknown process involving Dewey rods and Thorroclean to clean a specific Benchmark barrel using only 100 yard group size (and not even particularly noteworthy groups) as the measure of success….with pictures as evidence instead of a description of the process that might helps us validate your claim. Cool. Thanks for stirring up this stupid topic again.

 

[Edds]

What is being debated, damage caused by a brush or damage caused by an abrasive?

 

[Ronin22]

Bud, you’re the one who trotted out the scientific method for your one-off “test”. I don’t think Mr. Green’s data is scientifically valid either but he’s not making that claim. Keep doing whatever you want. The fact that you think that one barrel (this one or the next) produces some kind of generalizable test result that could inform any broad population of barrel-cleaners tells us everything we need to know. All we see is that you had some success using some unknown process involving Dewey rods and Thorroclean to clean a specific Benchmark barrel using only 100 yard group size (and not even particularly noteworthy groups) as the measure of success….with pictures as evidence instead of a description of the process that might helps us validate your claim. Cool. Thanks for stirring up this stupid topic again.

Really, what is your hourly rate? My ex-wife was good, but you are fucken great!

 

[Ronin22]

What is being debated, damage caused by a brush or damage caused by an abrasive?

I don't even know anymore! LOL
I supposedly have the perfect storm to ruint a barrel, over sized bronze brush and Thorroclean and I'm an anomaly because as one of the most unluckiest guys in the world, I got lottery winning lucky all of a sudden and this system is working for all my barrels. 6-7 barrels over a near 2yr timeframe. I can't mention the others because I didn't think they were a clean canvas to observe since they all had been shot and cleaned with a plethora of cleaning products prior. The barrel I presented, however, has only seen Thorroclean.

Would I use the products Frank spoke about that ruined barrels, fuck no I am not. His testament is enough to scare my ass away from those! Thorroclean though I think is getting a bad rap as it's being lumped in with other abrasives that are bad stuff.

...and that is my hypothesis.

 

[hlee]

Granted none of us are bonafide scientists, but at least trying to adhere to even the most modicum of the definition will help keep clarity.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Ronin22]

Speak for yourself.

I'll believe you're a bonfire scientist, though I am no physimachist, based upon that stoic response. Because if you were an engineer, you'd definitely tell us and then support the claim with a TLDR 10 paragraph post demonstrating you are an engineer. A scientist though, would love to hear your take on this.

 

[buckleboy]

Granted none of us are bonafide scientists, but at least trying to adhere to even the most modicum of the definition will help keep clarity.

Our grammarian friend would like to point out that that “none” is singular. So your sentence should read “…none of us is a bonafied scientist…”
See how bored I am? And, no, I’m not for hire to correct your ex.

Fwiw, ThorroFlush and a patch works for me most of the time. ‘Twould have to be a nahstee tube to break out the ThorroClean.

 

[Ronin22]

Our grammarian friend would like to point out that that “none” is singular. So your sentence should read “…none of us is a bonafied scientist…”
See how bored I am? And, no, I’m not for hire to correct your ex.

Fwiw, ThorroFlush and a patch works for me most of the time. ‘Twould have to be a nahstee tube to break out the ThorroClean.

So, a narcissist, a scientist, and an English teacher walk into a bar...

 

[DM1975]

The douchebaggery is strong here today.

 

[Ronin22]

The douchebaggery is strong here today.

Today!? lol

 

[DM1975]

Today!? lol

They might lock you in a tower or throw stones at you for challenging their belief system.

 

[Frank Green]

You mention other products, but is there any evidence that specifically Thorroclean caused damage? We could be comparing peaches to bananas here! Lol

KG2, Thorroclean, Witch's Brew, Flitz etc....

Use an abrasive in conjunction with a brush for sure a bronze brush and the damage will happen. It's a matter of time.

 

[Ronin22]

KG2, Thorroclean, Witch's Brew, Flitz etc....

Use an abrasive in conjunction with a brush for sure a bronze brush and the damage will happen. It's a matter of time.

Well fuck. I will report back when that time comes. For science, if anything! Lol

 

[Ronin22]

For posterity:
Pretty impressed with the JGS reamer and PVA chamber job. Outside of the fire crackling beginning, that is some smooth entry of the lands.

About 12" down the bore:

About 20" down the bore:

I don't see any damage. Target don't show damage.

 

[TheNarrator]

 

[Turkeytider]

Just wondering if Ronin22 is on the Thorroclean marketing department payroll yet. If he’s not, he should be.

 

[Mauser48]

If you're starting with a barrel that clean and cleaning every 100 rounds I don't see an abrasive being necessary to get it clean again.

 

[Ronin22]

If you're starting with a barrel that clean and cleaning every 100 rounds I don't see an abrasive being necessary to get it clean again.

I strive to maintain a consistent bore state as much as possible.

 

[jthor]

I've completely stopped using abrasives to include thorrowclean, for one reason only, consistency.

During the 2024 PRS season I ran into an issue where about 70-100 or so rounds into a match my velocities would spike 30-50FPS.
This happened at
- THS
- 2024 Finale

In talking to other well regarded PRS shooters in the series, one of which now makes barrels, It boiled down to the fact abrasives smooth down the fire cracking that causes your "barrel break-in speed up". This is why you will see velocities increase again around 70-100 rounds as the fire cracking builds back up after using abrasives. You are essentially having to do barrel break-in all over again everytime you hit a barrel with abrasives. Since this discussion I stopped using abrasives and only use solvents. The issue has not popped back up at any 2 day or 1 day match I have been to since; 700+ rounds later on the barrel. If you clean with solvents often then carbon rings don't happen as long as you aren't trimming your brass too short.

 

[Nik H]

Some more anecdotal information

1. I have one of @Frank Green barrels. It is a 400BB Heavy Palma in 6.5 CM. Dave Tooley chambered it for me.
2. I don't believe in break-ins and just shot it.
3. It has 2,500 rounds of factory ammo through it. I use a 50-50 split between Hornady 140 grain ELDM and FGMM 130 grain Berger OTM.
4. My cleaning regimen is absurdly simple. I clean it every 200 rounds or when the rifle will sit for a while.
5. I use KG1 carbon remover and a bronze brush, and end the process by applying a light coat of KG4 gun oil.

I don't know what the bore looks like and couldn't care less. The barrel shoots as accurately and consistently today as it did on day 1.

 

[rdsii640]

So, what am I doing right that this barrel has survived 10-12 cleanings with Thorroclean? Not only survived, but still shooting bug holes. That is what I'd like to identify and possibly separate from the one & done toast jobs. Is it that Thorroclean used as instructed is a safe abrasive?

I have used thorroclean and I have noticed no difference since I have started using it. I'm nobodies expert but I have had no issues with it.

 

[jthor]

To illustrate this barrel speed up after using abrasives, here are some screen shots from THS in July of last year through day 1 and 2. While this speed up doesn't take as many rounds that initial "barrel break-in" does, its still present and repeatable with abrasive use. Since quitting the use of abrasives this had not repeated itself.

Start of day one

Middle of day 1

Start of day 2