Rifle Scopes Totally disgusted with Leupold

[ranger1183]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

My question regarding scopes might open a Pandora’s box but I think some clarifications need to be made.

In what <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">COUNTRY</span></span> are the parts made for each of the following scope companies. This is for tactical scopes only, not hunting scopes.

Burris:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

Bushnell:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

Horus Vision:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

IOR:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

Leupold:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

NightForce:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other Internals

Nikon:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other Internals

Pentax:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other Internals

Schmidt and Bender:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

Super Sniper:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other Internals

Trijicon:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other Internals

US Optics:
Lens
Tube
Knobs
Other internals

 

[ScottyS]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Every couple of years this comes up.

As soon as the Vari-X III's started getting called "Mark 4's", with nothing different than a price tag, we knew it was over.

Leupold used to be product-driven, now they are marketing driven. The CS sucks, the website sucks, the products suck. And the list prices are akin to rape charges.

I like how every time this topic recycles, there are less and less kool-aid drinkers around, the juice must be weeding them out.

 

[Asm1]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I reread what your originaly post said and I would be upset if I bought mark4 binos and they said made in china and I would be very upset if my mark4 scope's have china parts in them.

Leupold needs to ADDRESS this issue here on this thread, they are aware of this thread because i sent them a link they will be looseing another customer if they dont prove your questions wrong on the mark4 scopes terry,Not from my haveing problems with there scopes,but i dont like to be hoodood with A USA flag waver's company selling china crap..


Terry what scopes you looking to replace the MARK4's on your future packages ?

 

[Terry Cross]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

ASM,

I went back and checked my typing on the first post. The binoculars should have been called "Tactical", not Mk 4. However,the scopes were Mk 4 but I failed to write that. I have edited the exact description to reflect this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Terry what scopes you looking to replace the MARK4's on your future packages ? </div></div>

I'm not even going to go down that road on this thread. While that is a fair question, I do not want to turn this into Leupold vs. brand X. I also ask that others refrain from that within this thread. If Leupold chose to build a scope to compete or beat brand X at an affordable price, they could certainly do it.

My personal "spec" packages are not going to ship with scopes. Never planned to. However, complete packages going to agencies will be spec'd out by the agencies themselves in many cases. If asked for assistance in the matter, I will give them a range of companies and models to choose from including Leupold. However I will make sure that they have as much information as possible prior to them making a choice.

I am going to order 6 Leupolds this week to go on rifles for a Highway Patrol because that is what they chose prior to asking for my input.

 

[mauritz45]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BillHPBT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I looked at a new US Optics ST-10 just this past week for $1,080 if I recall. You can do a lot of good work with a good 10x scope AND keep your hard earned dollars in this country! </div></div>


and that, ladies and gentlemen, is the gods honest truth--cam

 

[Anthony C]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

ok i have a question now. I have a Tasco SS 16x on a 5R and am relatively happy. That said all of my huntiung rifles sprt Leupolds either Vari XII ir VXII's. I can see a signifnat improvement in the Leupold over the SS and was considering a Mark 2 in 6.5x20 (think is the power range). In any event some of the Leupolds are in Midway in the high $600 to $700 range. Any recomendations on a Leupold (US MADE) alternative. Requirements woiuld be variable power upto to atleast 15x and price range no more than say $800.00 and optics like or better than Leupold.

 

[Asm1]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Terry Cross</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ASM,

I went back and checked my typing on the first post. The binoculars should have been called "Tactical", not Mk 4. However,the scopes were Mk 4 but I failed to write that. I have edited the exact description to reflect this.

Terry what scopes you looking to replace the MARK4's on your future packages ?I'm not even going to go down that road on this thread. While that is a fair question, I do not want to turn this into Leupold vs.brand X. </div></div>



I can respect that Terry..

 

[JRose]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

ASM,

I went back and checked my typing on the first post. The binoculars should have been called "Tactical", not Mk 4. However,the scopes were Mk 4 but I failed to write that. I have edited the exact description to reflect this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Terry what scopes you looking to replace the MARK4's on your future packages ? </div></div>

I'm not even going to go down that road on this thread. While that is a fair question, I do not want to turn this into Leupold vs. brand X.

I can respect that Terry.. </div></div>

Your qoute-fu stinks! LOL

 

[Asm1]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JRose</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ASM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

ASM,

I went back and checked my typing on the first post. The binoculars should have been called "Tactical", not Mk 4. However,the scopes were Mk 4 but I failed to write that. I have edited the exact description to reflect this.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Terry what scopes you looking to replace the MARK4's on your future packages ? </div></div>

I'm not even going to go down that road on this thread. While that is a fair question, I do not want to turn this into Leupold vs. brand X.

I can respect that Terry.. </div></div>

Your qoute-fu stinks! LOL </div></div>

Yes but i have edit FU FOOL!

edited LOL with smiley face so you know i am not mad

FOO..

 

[banshee sws]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

i was told by a fellow member about Terry's thread on Leupold optics ;

Lowlight refers to Leupold's breaking at an alarming rate with military shooters and civilians when they still use them . . .

what are the breakages?

this is a great post ; however lots of us own Leupolds so i am curious what is going on specifically ?

just saying they are breaking , unfortunately tells me nothing . . .

what should i be looking for ? are there certain breakages that are happening more than others ?

thanks in advance -

 

[OFIS]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

heartbreak: to find out i diddnt get what i thought i was paying for.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i was told by a fellow member about Terry's thread on Leupold optics ;

Lowlight refers to Leupold's breaking at an alarming rate with military shooters and civilians when they still use them . . .

what are the breakages?

this is a great post ; however lots of us own Leupolds so i am curious what is going on specifically ?

just saying they are breaking , unfortunately tells me nothing . . .

what should i be looking for ? are there certain breakages that are happening more than others ?

thanks in advance -

</div></div>

George, maybe I need to start a thread with a running count, I bet Leupold would love that.


Breakages,

Most common turrets going down, as well they spin freely. The soldier with the M110, it stopped turning at 12MOA with their package and system. Rifle was brand new. Zero stops on the M3 knobs break. as well turrets will back out of their sockets, silver starts to show.

Also we see they won't hold zero, ask Jack, he arrived at Rifles Only with a brand new one and every day was frustrated because the rifle would be significantly off zero with no known cause. He sent it back to Leupold and they put it on their machine and found no errors in the scope, then they took it too their range and what do you know, it wouldn't work. Its starts small and grows, shifting zero.

Canted reticles, some that get worse and start to tip over.

Mainly they lock up and stop adjusting properly. You'll suddenly only get about 1/4 of the use out of them. We see on the line same rifle, same scope, Army purchased system where slowly guys start to run out of elevation, some get to 1000 yards, some top out at 700, some stop turning all together. There is no consistency especially after heavy use.

I think that about sums it up, if I run across anything else I will start a tally.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Fuck it, start a tally thread and sticky it. I think they need to know. And, more important, they need to know that we know.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<--- Warning DISSENTER

This thread has become comical.

Pissed b/c it is made in China and people thought it was made in the USA - who failed to ask the question?

Pissed b/c the quality isn't on par with what they thought it should be - who bought it? Who didn't demand money back after sending it in? Who didn’t sell it?

Pissed and thinks a Leupold rep should appear HERE and grovel - Wow..... those are people who think they are really special, and think this place means something to Leupold - pull your head out before you suffocate.

Pissed b/c you still want to think Loopy means better than Super Sniper (insert name here). Get over it - it doesn't

Pissed b/c you think Leupold should care more about you and your little niche than all the millions of FUDs that need their 3x9 with a Boone and Crocket reticle to take their 120 yard broadside shot at a buck, and who will then relive the experience 5,287 times while half liquored up and telling everyone within ear shot that a real FUD shoots a Loopy. Contrast that with niche shooters like the ones found here – a lot of shit from a lot of manufacturers gets broken. Some folks around here purposely try to break things b/c they realize it’s no good if it isn’t reliable. And every 12 months there is a new super mondo high zoot optic that = supremacy and Loopy is never mentioned in the same breath. FUDs don't shoot. FUDs don’t read independent reviews. FUDs don't break gear. FUDs don't know the difference. There are 1,000 FUDs for everyone who fancies themselves as something other than a FUD.

Overlooking the beauty of the free market system - if Loopy chooses to sacrifice long term success for short term profit on the backs of the ignorant - A. Don't be ignorant, and inform your friends. B. Understand that they are creating opportunity in the market place for any other company that wants to step up - and THAT is the best part about this country - opportunity.

Last week I spoke to a Leupold rep while on his FUD route (a local sporting goods store) – he made it pretty clear with the shrug of his shoulders – Leupold kicks out some substandard shit sometimes, esp with the canted reticles; but since there is little they can do about it directly, he wanted to pump their CS. When asked about the 1/10 MIL thing – he said it has been discussed and shot down numerous times b/c of both the cost of tooling up and more so b/c that isn’t the meat of the market for them. Ta Da – we aspire to cater to the FUDs. And frankly – they do a very good job of it.

Don’t like it? Don’t buy it.

Good luck

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

+1

 

[858]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ScottyS</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The CS sucks...

</div></div>

How long does it take S&B to fix a problem? I can walk into Leupold, hand them my scope, and get it back in a week all while being treated politely and professionally. Maybe S&B (or any other foreign manufacturer) has a much lower failure rate but good luck if you're in a pinch for time.

What's the difference between buying a scope from a foreign manufacturer and buying a scope from a manufacturer that outsources some, or all, of its manufacturing? I'm trying to understand some of the moral superiority in this thread but am having a tough time.

Also, there seems to some people who want to compare Leupold to USO, S&B, and NF when Leupold really isn't even competing in that market segment.

We could also discuss the freebies that helped get the latest and greatest into the lime light but I somehow think that topic won't win me an internet popularity points.

The only saving grace to this thread is that If you don't like a product you don't have to buy it.

 

[teknikallysekure]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

To be fair the competition before last I won a pair of 400$ binos donated for free by Loopy, and I'm pretty happy with 'em so far.

At the last comp I shot in they had donated a laser range finder.

They may not be well loved, but they seem to show the shooting community some love. I dunno what kind of presence they have at the bigger matches cause I suck to hard to shoot in those, but they seem to throw in kickdowns to the smaller local ones that aren't anything to shake your nose at.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I have to say you're completely wrong, in the tactical market they absolutely compete with S&B, USO, NF, et al.

The military uses all of them with no consideration towards price with the end user, its usually part of a package, and frankly, it is 100% about percentages. Failure rate is key, like someone said these are not going on Dad's deer gun, they are going into combat. How about when a guy sees a problem to be solved at 600m and the scope stops working at 12MOA, or he thinks he turns it back to zero in the middle of the night and the zero stop doesn't work and its not where he thinks he left it. On that level it is 100% in competition with superior brands.

Sure, you can say the foreign scope will take longer to repair, but really, they take 3X the punishment and have 10X less failures. So the odds and percentages are in your favor buying a higher priced tactical scope. And longer repair times only work for civilians, the government usually has spares. So that repair time back to Germany doesn't work for the guy on the ground, only for Bob in the backwoods.

I think I need to start taking pictures of all the "spare" Leupold scopes carried by units. Maybe that will press the point home. And believe me they use them.

This idea you're saving something spending $1200 instead of $2400 in the tactical market is false at best. Percentages of failures is what matters, and frankly is all that should matter especially when being used by people in harms way.

 

[Graham]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...If you don't like a product you don't have to buy it.</div></div>Not 'having' to buy their product is not a solution, it's a description of the problem.

 

[500grains]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

If Leupold stuff is going to be made in China then I am done with it. I would prefer open sights than a scope made in China.

 

[858]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

LL, are we discussing the civilian market or the military market? It looks to me like both are being intermingled in this thread but in my mind there is a distinction. Obviously you are discussing the military side but my response was to someone commenting on the civilian side.

I'd like to know the total percentages of scopes you see. Its obvious that if one manufacturer maked 10X more than any other company that you would see more failures even if their failure rate was identical.

 

[858]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...If you don't like a product you don't have to buy it.</div></div>Not 'having' to buy their product is not a solution, it's a description of the problem. </div></div>

Please, most of the responses in this thread are the same whining that goes on on every internet forum. If you don't like Leupold, or any other company, then the problem is self correcting when you don't buy their product.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LL, are we discussing the civilian market or the military market? It looks to me like both are being intermingled in this thread but in my mind there is a distinction. Obviously you are discussing the military side but my response was to someone commenting on the civilian side.

I'd like to know the total percentages of scopes you see. Its obvious that if one manufacturer make 10X more than any other company that you would see more failures even if their failure rate was identical.

</div></div>

They are identical... as there is no distinction between the two in terms of Leupold's product.

And frankly, we see less and less Leupold's on the civilian side, and yet the failures are still higher than any other maker. We see more S&B, NF, and USO than we do Leupold. On the Military side we see more Leupold but as I said, the failure rate is about 2 to 5 failures per class of 20. You're welcome to do the math.

Now to compare the same, in some military classes we have an even split of NF and Leupold, the NF's far outshine the Leupold and don't break. In fact more and more of the SOCOM stuff is being replaced with NF over the Leupold, especially in the Mk series.

Civilians have a choice, military people don't. And more and more people are choosing not to go with Leupold for exactly these reasons.

The most recent civilian issue I can recall was Jack (above) one of the only Leupold's in the class and it hurt his ability to operate because it gave him trouble from day one. A brand new scope. I think he was one of only two Leupolds in the class so 50% failure rate, 9 other students, 8 with different scopes had no issue.

Finally I would put the number of precision rifle classes, student's, and systems we see against anyone in the country in terms of shear numbers. I would bet the only ones who could compete with how many people we see in the precision rifle field is only comparable to the military and their sniper classes. So I see a lot of them, week in and out.

Debating that your 1 or 2 10 year old Leupold scope has been "working" great for you holds only very little weight in the big picture, especially when you look at percentages of failures across a broad spectrum.

I have 12 S&B scopes, I have had 1 issue and I don't exactly treat that well. So bad in fact that most people cringe at my treatment of them. I paid for all of them and was willing to do so for 1 reason.. I have had only had 1 failure, it was in 2004. Have I see others get broken, sure, but so few and far between it makes it a safe bet. The same goes for my NF, "I" haven't hurt one yet out of the 6 or 8 I own. Apples and Oranges, I don't think so, cause at the end of the day, whether I use it or a grunt in Iraq, its all part of the same thing.

 

[Graham]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please...the problem is self correcting when you don't buy their product.</div></div> The problem doesn't change whether you buy the product or not.

Add Leopold to Harley-Davidson, McDonalds, Coca-Cola, and Levis: The success of these brands has nothing to do with selling the best product. In fact, their corporate approach does not even involve winning consumer confidence through choice. Mac McDonald himeslf said "If you gave people a choice, there would be chaos." He meant that the point of strong branding was to remove choice entirely.

The irony is that Leopold, like the others, knows that it will exist strongly in the market whether you buy it or not. That is because the positioning of the brand relies on mythology rather than strength of product. To the extent that people imitate other people - and there are far more of those people in the marketplace than any other - the problem will not self-correct.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><--- Warning DISSENTER
Pissed b/c it is made in China and people thought it was made in the USA - who failed to ask the question?

Pissed b/c the quality isn't on par with what they thought it should be - who bought it? Who didn't demand money back after sending it in? Who didn’t sell it? </div></div>

Just so you know, I am pissed. I am not pissed because it is made in China, I really could give two shits where it is made. I prefer to buy American if I can, but I am a free market kind of guy. If another country can produce a better product, the US company needs to get off its ass and compete. Thats the way I see that.

I AM pissed because Leupolds are not competeing with a product of similar caliber. I personally don't give a shit about that. I don't buy them anymore. I could also give two shits if they are on every rifle in the country that will only shoot a dear.

The reason I AM pissed is because they are VERY OFTEN sold to our government and police forces. That pisses me off because (for whatever reason, political, igrorance etc.) these agencies don't know any better. They think Leupold is a great product that has proven itself through history. The problem with that is that PEOPLE ARE USING THESE AND HUMAN LIFE IS AT STAKE! They are being sold a bill of goods that is bullshit, and Leupold knows it.

The men and women behind these pieces of shit do not have the choice to replace it with a NF or USO.

The Spec. Ops. community is using Leupolds less and less, and for good reason. The regular units and police forces are behind, but I fucking hope that very soon they will realize it too.

So, in summation, yeah, I am pissed. Leupolds are forced on people that depend on them. Leupolds quality should be top knotch if they continue to sell the these agencies. But it is not, and they know that. They don't give a shit, and I am pissed about that.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Oh and as to the "we want a to sign up so we can bitch at him" comment:

There are reps from other companies on here that are very helpful. Whether you know it or not, this is the best community on the web for people that know this and do this for a living. There are people on this forum that are industry leaders. There are people on here that take lives and save lives using the equipment we are discussing. Hell, the guy that started this thread is like Morgan Stanley, when he talks, you damn well should listen to what he says.

I don't want a Leupold rep to bitch to, I want one to give a shit. This is the best place in the world that someone can bounce stuff back and forth with real professionals. And they don't even have to get off of their ass to do it.

 

[marku]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Growing up Leupold to me was the top of the food chain. Their Mk4 line was the scope that everyone judged tactical scopes at. I switched to USO and S&B because Leupolds tactical line just didnt appeal to me anymore. All they are is a VX3 with adjustable turrents without the gold ring. There all to worried about recticles, and being able to mount a scope lower to the barrel without higher rings. There to worried about aesthetics and "Perception"(Which is the most important thing in corporate America. See they can make you think your buying a quality product because of the name on it. However they could be selling you a piece of crap. Which within the past 5 years is what they are doing.

 

[Asm1]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

LL

With the amount of scopes you see going down that ALRAMS me with leupold products,even if my experiance has been good its not worth the chance for me after hearing what you have seen..


Glad to here the NF do well,I'm not suprised at all from what I have put them threw ive owned 10 or better now.

My 1st S@b PMII was my last it had the worst out of the box ( brand new ) problems and inspection failures along its build I ever had from any scope ive owned went in for warranty work 3 times.Now I am sure I got a lemon and every one else got a good one,BUT that lemon was sour I can still tast it!..

Bang for the buck NF is the best IMHO...

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<-- Remains a dissenter.

Graham – doesn’t matter if ‘not purchasing it is merely a symptom of the problem’ or not. Unless you own / run Leupold it really doesn’t concern you. That is probably the funniest part of this whole thread – the same people that would bitch about government intervention and 50% ownership of GM by the tax payer are getting wound up b/c Leupold wants to pursue a business practice that doesn’t conform to their person view. Tough luck. Start your own company. Otherwise don’t buy it.

Gugubica – as for being pissed about China / quality – see above. As for being pissed that they are being sold to LE and MIL and lives could be at stake – OK again, it is a business decision on the part of Loopy. Instead of being pissed at Loopy for making a substandard product for the application – it be a hell of a lot more appropriate to be pissed at the responsibility party for these entities that chose Loopy in the first place. And as for reps from Loopy – must have been before your time – they have been here, and why would they stay? People throw tomatoes, they take the feedback back to Loopy and Loopy says ‘No’. Again, this niche isn’t what drives Loopy. People need to stop assuming that because it is of interest to them it is of interest to another. More importantly they need to get it through their head that private companies don’t owe anyone dick. They have the autonomy to produce whatever good or service they want. You either buy it or you don’t.

LL – sounds like the MIL (at least at the SOCOM level) is already working it out. They know Loopy is shit and from what you have written sounds like they are phasing them out. It will take a while to work them out of the system. Having watched the government allocation process in other areas for a while now – once it gets to the point of near universal recognition that Loopy suffers from gross failure, it would highly unlikely that Loopy would secure additional contracts for a good long time.

Without intervention the market system works. If a company produces an inferior product at an inflated price the demand curve falls. I advised someone just last week to buy an NF over a Loopy b/c of threads from here and elsewhere. The consumer has to do their homework for the market to work effectively.

Good luck

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I really do hope that they can remain in and do well in the hunting market. I wish the best for them there. But, if they do not care about the tactical market (and they don't) then they should get out of the tactical market. That's all I am saying.

If they continue to produce the same level of product they have been, I think they will pull the tactical market and concentrate on the hunters (eventually they will have to because it will be un-profitable). I think we have already started to see this with there un-willingness to adapt to the market i.e. 0.1 mil knobs.

The only thing keeping them in the tactical market (IMHO) is that they are still getting government contracts. Of all the markets to NOT slack in, that would be the one.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Some You guys act like you-all aren't the ones attacking the Leupold reps when they show up. 99% of time I have met with them prior and sat down to talk them about the issues. They are generally all really nice guys and start off trying to do what ever they can to make changes.

Unfortunately, what you all perceive as being driven off the site unwilling to help is nowhere near the truth. In every case they are no longer working for Leupold. So it really has nothing to do with what is said to them here, they get it, its more to do with their place within the organization.

Next time one comes around attempting to link up with the community here, try acting like you want the help. I may have strong opinions about stuff, and it may come off harsh in writing, but believe me when I say, I at least talk to these guys and offer what I see as solutions in return. I don't bitch to hear myself talk, I bitch because I am fan of this stuff and like to see the bar raised regardless of the company name.

 

[Ghost1941]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

All good opinions, however he made a good point in the original post. How is it they keep raising the price higher and higher when the quality is getting lower and lower. The profit margin must be ridiculous.

At least they still have decent customer service.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I've tried to stay out of this thread as I don't know what I can add, that has not already been said. I'm not going to defend Leupold, nor attack them. Leupold made a business decision, for whatever reason, and I presume the logic of it made sense, to them anyway.

We as buyers also make business decisions, on what to buy and what to pass on by, and our reasons do not have to be logical, though it helps. In the early 70's I started into shooting. When I could afford it, I bought Bausch & Lomb scopes. I thought they were the best, and at that time they were. Then they bought Bushnell (or Bushnell bought them?), and Bausch & Lomb just faded from the scope business.


I then turned to Leupold in the late 1970's. They were made in the USA, were reliable, and made both lightweight and rugged optics. What always impressed me about the company, was it's fine customer service. Even more impressive was Leupold's modularity. You could buy a scope, and change reticles, or add turrets, and get your scope refinished. And their warranty was second to none.

I don't know how many Leupold scopes I've owned; 50 maybe 75. And I never had a dog. In between I also have bought Bushnell's, Nikon's, Zeiss, and Burris and although some have been fine, I always kept the Leupold's and found some reason or another not to like the others I've bought.

In the last 2 months, I bought 2 new Leupold VX-III's plus a Falcon Menace 10x42T. There is nothing wrong with the Leupold's so far, but I don't think I've ever been more impressed by a "cheap" scope, than I have with the Falcon.

I have also sold a VariX-III. In retrospect, after reading this thread, and thinking it over, I think that if I had a do over, I would not have bought those two new VX-III's, and nor would I have sold that older VariX-III.

It now looks like Leupold is starting the long slide into the corporate graveyard. It's going to get crowded in that graveyard, as GM and Chrysler will be there soon, alongside with what was once a great american electronics industry, shipbuilding industry, and a host of others.

Right now I feel as if I lost an old friend. One who hunted and shot with me for many years. I'll get over it quickly and move on to another brand, just like I did with Bausch & Lomb.

But I cannot help but feel that America's great years are behind us, and not in front of us. And I don't think I'll get over that feeling anytime soon.


Bob

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I bitch because I am fan of this stuff and like to see the bar raised regardless of the company name. </div></div>

Agreed completely. I am taking this a little to personal becuase I was once a Leupold fan (I mean that was what any good rifle should aspire to have gracing it). I really do want the company to succeed. I just wish they would get it together before they alienate a huge group of future sales. I know the tactical market is not large in itself, but being on millitary weapons sells scopes to other markets. If they don't want to be in the tactical market, fine. But the tactical market bleeds into other shooting related markets. It's just like racing, car companies put a ton of money into racing. Not because they want to sell stuff to racers, but because it is a form of advertising. Same with a scope. If someone thinks it is good enough for the Army, it must be top of the line.

How good is it for business when the boys come home and tell all there friends and family (likely the hunting market) that their Leupolds went down on them at a huge rate. The fact that Leupolds adorn US military weapons is a HUGE part of their public perseption. If the guys using them wind up talking bad about them, it will have a ripple effect.

I hope I did not come off as wanting a rep to be here. I really don't care and I understand the reasons why they have come and gone. But when some one posts that something is wrong wth their NF, it is really reassuring when a rep of NF posts saying "call me, I will take care of it" a few posts down.

 

[gugubica]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Well said Bob. I think that is the exact reason people are so heated about this brand.

 

[okiefired]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

Just a few comments.

Very good thread, very depressing. I have long been a Leupy fan but I have seen quality fade in the last several years. 95% of us simply dont have the oportunity to see or experience what folks like Lowlight and Terry C. do but I dont doubt what has been said. The reports of those kind of failure rates from a 100+yr old US company that our military depends on and our fathers and grandfathers harvested game with when we were all kids......well, it just hurts. Like a lot of US companies these days, sounds like Leupold needs to make some upper level management changes.

I've always found it interesting that when looking for a comparison to Leupold, it has usually been USO, S&B or Nightforce. When comparing pricing, its obvious that USO and S&B should be superior....and they are. Lower level NF's are priced pretty close to upper level Leupy's but looking at across the board all model pricing, NF's are conciderably higher....at least those I've looked at. Older MK4's and VXIII's are still a good value IMO and I'll continue to buy them when I can afford them but I've never been dedicated to any one make or model in anything.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marku</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Their Mk4 line was the scope that everyone judged tactical scopes at. I switched to USO and S&B because Leupolds tactical line just didnt appeal to me anymore. All they are is a VX3 with adjustable turrents without the gold ring. </div></div>

I've seen this said several times here and it simply is not true. There are differences of which a few are; a reinforced spring system in the erector, thicker walled scope tubes and etched reticles. Differences that would add to the durability of any scope.

Come on Leupold. Be an example to other US companies. Do it right and get your shit together. If you dont, we'll look elswhere for optics in this price and I promise you this will include hunters of this country also.

Just incase anyone gives a shit.

okie

 

[Falar]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I don't know why anyone would buy a Leupold anymore anyway. NF doesn't cost that much more and is MUCH better IMO. If you want better than that you can bring the bigger bucks and get a truly custom FFP scope from USO.

 

[858]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why anyone would buy a Leupold anymore anyway. NF doesn't cost that much more and is MUCH better IMO. If you want better than that you can bring the bigger bucks and get a truly custom FFP scope from USO. </div></div>

I bought a brand new 3.5-10X40mm MK4 M1 at the end of last year (probably my last one too) for $850. I would happily buy a comparable NF if they were closer in price but as it stands they are $500 apart.

Just to be clear I agree fully with Terry Cross.

 

[Falar]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why anyone would buy a Leupold anymore anyway. NF doesn't cost that much more and is MUCH better IMO. If you want better than that you can bring the bigger bucks and get a truly custom FFP scope from USO. </div></div>

I bought a brand new 3.5-10X40mm MK4 M1 at the end of last year (probably my last one too) for $850. I would happily buy a comparable NF if they were closer in price but as it stands they are $500 apart.

Just to be clear I agree fully with Terry Cross.

</div></div>

When I bought my 3.5-15x56mm NXS I paid around 1400 or so. The Leupold 4.5-14x56 w/Illuminated reticle was nearly 1200. I think it was close enough to justify going with the NF.

 

[Daniel Barham]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

The first scope I purchased was a Redfield. After that I moved up to a Leu Mk4 M1 16x. A real MK4. At the time, I thought I had the best that was made. I was wrong. I will say it tracked and I used it in rough weather without any issues. The glass just sucked when I compared it to anything else in the same price range. Never had a problem with Leupold other than they don't make something I want anymore.

 

[deersniper]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 858</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't know why anyone would buy a Leupold anymore anyway. NF doesn't cost that much more and is MUCH better IMO. If you want better than that you can bring the bigger bucks and get a truly custom FFP scope from USO. </div></div>

I bought a brand new 3.5-10X40mm MK4 M1 at the end of last year (probably my last one too) for $850. I would happily buy a comparable NF if they were closer in price but as it stands they are $500 apart.

Just to be clear I agree fully with Terry Cross.

</div></div>

When I bought my 3.5-15x56mm NXS I paid around 1400 or so. The Leupold 4.5-14x56 w/Illuminated reticle was nearly 1200. I think it was close enough to justify going with the NF. </div></div>

Same here, I was going to buy a Ill. TMR 4.5-14x59 for around 13-1400. Got a slightly used NF 3.5-15x50 for either 1150 or 1250. Much better/more durable / moa/moa scope for less money. Have since bought a new 2.5-10x32 and a used 5.5-22x56. Nightforce is all I will buy for my better rifles now.

Bought the NF 2.5-10 because the elevation turret unscrewed out of the scope body on my Mark 2 3-9x40. I was on a hunt, and that got to me pretty bad.

Had a 3.5-10x40 Tactical, that has had the illumination break multiple times.

Haven't had any failures besides those 2.

-dan

 

[marku]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

There using the dual spring erector system on all VX-L scopes which is the same system they use in the tactical line. Im not for sure about tube thickness cant find anything on that.

 

[Graham]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In every case they are no longer working for Leupold... they get it, its more to do with their place within the organization.</div></div> Yup. Except in one case: SSGT G didn't even take the job (and it was a good offer, too). He re-enlisted instead - A prudent decision; and a class act.

 

[huntler]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I used mk4's until I bought a .50 bmg that came with a swarovski, after that I was done with leupold. Then I discovered US optics (1994). I have only bought US optics, Leica and S&B since. I got a 20x super sniper on a rifle I bought and I must say it is at least as good as any Leupold Mark IV that I owned.

I'll go ahead and say it... They are over priced junk and I can't belive people still buy them with all of the better choices for less or simler money.

 

[Dirknar]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

All I can say is Ive never had a bad Leupy.Ive had a few and Ive got 2 mk4's right now and they've been good to me.. Thats ALL I know..

I just bought another Leupy Mk4 6.5-20x50 TMR from BigRiverTactical..for 1159.. The similar NF 5-22x50 is 17-1800 dollors. I just got a chance to look through a NF tonight at the range and It was sweet glass but the price point IS much higher.. I keep seeing ppl saying that NF isnt that much more.. YES it is.. 6-700 dollors more, is a lot of money. Heck its another gun..

thats all. Not much to add to the debate.. although I wish Leupy would do MOA/MOA..

 

[idpasteve]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

when I Built my New 700p- i looked at
the Mark 4 8.5- 25 @ 1399.00...

The Nightforce 5.5 - 22 was 1560.00

For 161.00, knowing I had a scope that was
repeatable, tracked, and rugged.... Not a
tough decision-
I went with the Nightforce

 

[okiefired]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marku</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There using the dual spring erector system on all VX-L scopes which is the same system they use in the tactical line. Im not for sure about tube thickness cant find anything on that.
</div></div>

If thats refering to what I said, you'll have to argue that with Leupold. Thier reps gave me the info I quoted last year via e-mail, I've never actually disasembled one to see for myself. I will say that to me there is definately a difference to the feel of a VX3 and a MK4 when twisting the knobs and I've never punished a VX3 like I have a MK4 so I dont know for sure if they'll hold up as well or not, maybe you have.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntler</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got a 20x super sniper on a rifle I bought and I must say it is at least as good as any Leupold Mark IV that I owned. </div></div>

That statement alone makes it hard for me to give credit to anything else you have to say. Not taking up for Leupold, if thier quality is going down then to hell with them, we'll buy elsewhere. But I've spent quite a bit of time with 4 or 5 SS's just down the road. Thier turrets are mushy and audibles almost non detectable. Adjustments are somewhat vague and sometimes anything more than a decent tap finds you searching for 0. None of these attributes can be given to the older MK4 I own.

Well, I've seen these Leupy bashing's come and go, I think I'm done with this one. Wheres that thread on those Falcons..............

okie

 

[1911.it]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

"It now looks like Leupold is starting the long slide into the corporate graveyard. It's going to get crowded in that graveyard, as GM and Chrysler will be there soon, alongside with what was once a great american electronics industry, shipbuilding industry, and a host of others."

Unfortunately this hits the nail right on the head. With the onslaught of foreign competition from the asian market mnay American maufacturers just don't give a sh*t anymore. So sad when you consider American manufacturing might and resolve during and just after the WWII years.

Thankfully some manufacturers in the USA scope market still care and produce quality products made in the USA. <span style="font-weight: bold">My money for stuff I care about </span>almost always buys US and German made products. No Asian or Indian products or services for me thank you.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

There are several that expressed the exact point that I was making - I, just like they did bought Loopy that was a couple hundred more than brand X but several hundred less than brand Y. The initial gamble was how is it out of the box? - passed. Big gamble is how does it do over time? - TBD.

That right there is the business decision that Loopy made - they knew I couldn't afford brand Y but was willing to strectch beyond brand X. And when I shoot, there are no lives on the line. That IS most of the market. If that isn't you, you should do more home work.

I don't find fault with Loopy, as a business decision it is a good decision. The above describes the widest breadth of shooters regardless of how serious they see themselves.

Good luck

 

[Moose]

Re: Totally disgusted with Leupold

I can't speak for the new Leupold scopes,but i have owned 3 Mark 4 scopes for a number of years and am very happy with them.If Leupold is putting out a shit product now they are out of the minds.