Rifle Scopes We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norwiscutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I currently own a PR, and have seriously been contemplating the possiblity of purchasing a 5-25, put will now be looking in other directions. The only reason for giving PR a chance in the first place was because of Scott and his recomendation. It was very hard to justify PR when a PM II was right there as an alternative. We are very fortunate to have many great options at the high end of the scale, so not purchasing from PR is really not much of a loss at all. </div></div>

Wanna sell it? Cheap?
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Lower price doesn't hurt one's image, and higher price doesn't assure quality. ATI, your products "image" was compromised, but not by Scott. There was underminning going on; again not by Scott!
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was gonna pull the trigger on a PR....", " I was getting ready to buy a PR...", "I'm going SB now..." blah blah blah. All bullshit troiling IMO. Same shit as, "man, good snag! If I was only sooner.." or " God, someone please buy this before I jizz in my pants!". Retarded. </div></div>

If anything your posts seem to be more of the trolling variety..
Unless you know me, you have zero idea on what I was or am going to do or what I can or can not afford.

So how about you take your trolling to another thread, where you can praise your scope and the scumbag of a company that produced it.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Scott,
I had the pleasure to meet Chris Thomas' father Dick. He was a true artisan when it came to optics. But after his passing Chris has rode his fathers coat-tails in the industry. You could call up Dick and go to his shop and he would answer your questions etc. Chris on the other hand is an ASS. So I hope that this situation turns around for you. I know that everyone on this forum supports Liberty Optics. You sir are top drawer. So that kind of customer service will shine above all.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was gonna pull the trigger on a PR....", " I was getting ready to buy a PR...", "I'm going SB now..." blah blah blah. All bullshit troiling IMO. Same shit as, "man, good snag! If I was only sooner.." or " God, someone please buy this before I jizz in my pants!". Retarded. </div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tch2fly</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SierraCharlie</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am offering low dollar bids on all PR 3x15's and 5x25's. I don't care if the box is missing, damaged, or even IF there aren't parallax markings. I SHOULD reduce my offer by 25%, but won't, as I know how hard it is to get rid of these pieces...let me know. </div></div>

I'm with Netranger. As a matter of fact<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> I'm paying $1,000 for all those shitty new and like new Premier scopes. You can contact me by IM or email. I'm only taking the first 30 so hurry up!</span></span>

SC </div></div>

Why would I sell to a low-ball offer ... I think I should ask a <span style="font-weight: bold">premium price</span> for a used PR scope obviously ATI is laying down the law and everyone will have to pay list price on new PR scopes causing the value of used to rise as well
wink.gif
</div></div>

You're thinking way too logically here man, with the laws of economics and all. Mphew. I'm just trying to help those that want to throw their PR's in the trash; consider me a "recycler".</div></div> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Norwiscutter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I currently own a PR, and have seriously been contemplating the possiblity of purchasing a 5-25, put will now be looking in other directions. The only reason for giving PR a chance in the first place was because of Scott and his recomendation. It was very hard to justify PR when a PM II was right there as an alternative. We are very fortunate to have many great options at the high end of the scale, so not purchasing from PR is really not much of a loss at all. </div></div>

Wanna sell it? Cheap?</div></div>

How many more posts are you going to put in this thread netranger6 ???? You are really beginning to look like the retard in this
laugh.gif
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

It's kind of my point Sand. Being, it's easy to chime in and get peoples panties all wadded up with a few strokes of the QWERTY. And yes, I like "Franks and beans, Franks and beans!!"
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

MAP must be for milking Government Contracts.

I guess it would be hard to explain why the U.S. Government paid more for a scope, than a person who could walk in and buy one off the shelf.

But doesn't that happen quite often, with the US Gov.?

Of course it could also be for milking consumers that associate price with quality.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wanna sell it? Cheap? </div></div>

How much will it be worth after PH goes out of business?
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Since I'm not a Lawyer, I am not gonna argue about MAP pricing and the fine print.
Lets be honest PR and all the other scope companies know that their scopes are being sold for less than MAP pricing every day, and they don't have a problem with it. Why? Because it moves product and helps them increase market share.
Now that Scott has worked to build a great customer base for them they seem to think they "don't need him any more" and want to pull a chicken shit stunt like this, that's the part I have a problem with, that's why I suggest <span style="color: #CC0000">We Boycott </span> PR and ATI and maybe they will learn some manners.
SScott
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I will post something in this thread at the risk of someone bashing my post as "retarded". Honestly I dont give a rats ass. More for the benefit,though unlikely since the dollar rules with alot of companies, that someone from Premier will notice actions like this do not sit will with some. I have a preorder on a PR Hunter that I am going to cancel after reading what I read here. Although I never purchased from Liberty Optics I have had the pleasure of dealing with vendors that post on this site and all have been great transactions with great people. It is an unfortunate situation and after learning this a#$hole type sh(% is going on I dont care to deal with PR at all. Have a good day everyone.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wanna sell it? Cheap? </div></div>

How much will it be worth after PH goes out of business? </div></div>

I wouldn't care if the price was right. Good product, and I'll find someone to service it if the SHTF scenario, but it won't, as PR doesn't rely solely on SH for sales...at least I hope they don't, plus it would look great next to my counter sniper.
smile.gif
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sunnyside Scott</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <span style="color: #CC0000">We Boycott </span> PR and ATI and maybe they will learn some manners.
SScott </div></div>
Doubt it; at best you'll get some cheesy explanation / apology w/ no substance and they will continue to do business in the same manner. That seems to be the history of...!
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ArmaHeavy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Wanna sell it? Cheap? </div></div>

How much will it be worth after PH goes out of business? </div></div>

I wouldn't care if the price was right. Good product, and I'll find someone to service it if the SHTF scenario, but it won't, as PR doesn't rely solely on SH for sales...at least I hope they don't, plus it would look great next to my counter sniper.
smile.gif
</div></div>

It won't matter after they are out of business and you've moved on to the latest "gotta have". I admire your dedication to the brand, but Scott was more dedicated to them then you are.
smile.gif


And no more jokes about my beloved Counter Sniper scopes. It's quality recycled aluminum cans and coke bottle bottoms that make it an eco-friendly deal at a reasonable MAP price of $5000. I'd consider becoming a dealer, but another guy had his arms cut for giving a customer a free, quality Bounty lenswipe.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Curious as to why Scott/LO was seemingly "targeted" in this debacle? Only asking as someone previously mentioned ATI doing some checking up on their dealers.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

The minimum price should be the invoice price that left the factory when the item was shipped.

Few dealers would lose money and sell below invoice. If they did, they wouldn’t be in business long. However, some dealers are content with making less money, having return customers and increased sales by word of mouth endorsements. In this case it sounds like the vendor preferred happy customers. Maybe the mfg could take a lesson from the vendor.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe Premier should have stated that their optics will be sold at $XXXXX cost and place that in a contract?</div></div>

again, we haven't seen if this was the case or not. what if it was in the agreement and all of you are dog piling on premier because someone didn't read premier's vendor policies? i haven't read premier's vendor policy, have any of you that say you will never buy from premier again? how many manufacturer/distributors have similar vendor policies in your every day lives that you <span style="font-weight: bold">never hear about</span>?
</div></div>

That is easy, non, zero. Because I obviously had not heard of it.

<span style="color: #FF0000">So what is the difference between price fixing and this form of MAP? Is it just that this is not an agreement with other optics sellers, makers to sell optics at a specific price? I'm not a lawyer so I'm asking.</span>
To me the big deal is with the loyalty as I percieve it. Whatever they want to charge for their scopes is their business and will also have a determination on whether I buy one of their optics or not. However I will not buy from someone that I can not trust and someone who utilizes what I deem as sorry tactics. This could have been handled in a professional manner which in my opinion it was not.

</div></div>

i am not a business person or a lawyer. hell, i barely graduated high school but, i think price fixing is when the majority of the manufactures conspire together to keep prices inflated (or manipulated in any way), not when a manufacture tells a dealer what they can sell their product for.

map at face value is minimum advertised pricing. that is not to say that the manufacture/distributor and the dealer have not entered into an agreement that they will not sell lower than that price. i feel before (obviously too late now) we criticize anyone, we need to know what the agreements were.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe Premier should have stated that their optics will be sold at $XXXXX cost and place that in a contract?</div></div>

again, we haven't seen if this was the case or not. what if it was in the agreement and all of you are dog piling on premier because someone didn't read premier's vendor policies? i haven't read premier's vendor policy, have any of you that say you will never buy from premier again? how many manufacturer/distributors have similar vendor policies in your every day lives that you <span style="font-weight: bold">never hear about</span>?
</div></div>

That is easy, non, zero. Because I obviously had not heard of it.

<span style="color: #FF0000">So what is the difference between price fixing and this form of MAP? Is it just that this is not an agreement with other optics sellers, makers to sell optics at a specific price? I'm not a lawyer so I'm asking.</span>
To me the big deal is with the loyalty as I percieve it. Whatever they want to charge for their scopes is their business and will also have a determination on whether I buy one of their optics or not. However I will not buy from someone that I can not trust and someone who utilizes what I deem as sorry tactics. This could have been handled in a professional manner which in my opinion it was not.

</div></div>

i am not a business person or a lawyer. hell. i barely graduate high school but, i think price fixing is when the majority of the manufactures conspire together to keep prices inflated (or manipulated in any way), not when a manufacture tells a dealer what they can sell their product for.

map at face value is minimum advertised pricing. that is not to say that the agreement between the manufacture/distributor and the dealer have not entered into an agreement that they will not sell lower than that price. i feel before (obviously too late now) we criticize anyone, we need to know what the agreements were. </div></div>

Thanks. I thought that was what it was but I wasn't 100% sure which is why I asked.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stefan73</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks. I thought that was what it was but I wasn't 100% sure which is why I asked. </div></div>

if you are really curious, i encourage you to look it up. i am definatly no lawyer or businessman but that is the way i understand it.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's kind of my point Sand. Being, it's easy to chime in and get peoples panties all wadded up with a few strokes of the QWERTY. And yes, I like "Franks and beans, Franks and beans!!" </div></div>

Don't ask, don't tell has not been lifted yet. So keep your "Franks and Beans" to yourself please.
shocked.gif
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Curious as to why Scott/LO was seemingly "targeted" in this debacle? </div></div>

From what has been posted so far, cause another PR vendor got butt hurt.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marku</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im really more interesed on how this thread is going to affect Premiers sales? With this forum being ranked #1 among tactical and long range shooting on the internet, I would say most sales start off right here on Snipers Hide for Premier.

With everthing else in the world going up in price from the grocery store to the gas tank, Premier might have shot themselves in the foot. This may sway more people to shoot Nightforce or USO which typically is just a tad cheaper in price. What im getting as is Scotts deals might have swayed people away from Nightforce to take the "Step up" to Premier. Premier might just hung themselves </div></div>

Stupid should hurt and if Premier is too stupid to run a business, they deserve the results.

MAP is fine when it is ADVERTISED...when it becomes AUTHORISED...screw them. Business models that have to artificially inflate their prices are doomed to fail long term. Someone can always build the same product cheaper...and will.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Whoa, 7 pages in less than 24 hours... all full of "Now I will never buy one" or "Canceled my order" or "Will sell mine now" etc etc etc .

I'll add to it, I will steer anyone who asks me about the high end scopes away from Premiere and towards this thread.

Even if I could afford one I would go elsewhere. Best of luck in the future Scott and I'll check you out for my next scope.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I'm on the fence about this.

About MAP, that is. The way LO got treated is a bit extreme and I don't agree with it.

Almost every reputable manufacturer in this industry abides by MAP policies (Even the NF that everyone here pushes so much), as do many other industries. I had to abide by MAP when I had an automotive parts business, and I felt that it was *usually* a good practice.

For me:

1) MAP prevented Joe6Pack from undercutting everyone in the business and from spamming his name by being okay with a $15 mark up. Joe6pack working out of mommas basement has virtually no overhead. Joe6pack usually goes out of business, but not before undercutting everyone in the industry for a year. After Joe6pack folds up, Joe4pack springs up taking his place to continue the cycle.

2) MAP allowed me to make a profit to actually help pay for my business - advertisements, employees (albeit, I only had 2), website upkeep, purchasing, etc etc. (not to mention put a couple dollars in my pocket at the end of the day)

3) MAP (decent profit for reseller) gives incentive for a reseller to actually push the manufacturers product and essentially work as an extension of advertising and customer service for the manufacturer.

4) MAP allows for a primo product (Premier, Nightforce, etc) to have a higher profit margin for everyone in the business. As a reseller, don't you want more profit on a Nightforce than a Barfska? It just makes sense.

5) MAP violations still exist if someone can simply hop on google and type "cheapest Premier scopes" and get directed to a SH link that suggests "Just call dealer X and he will hook you up with a 30% discount!"

6) MAP is not price fixing - I suggest looking up the definition.

The 'free market' arguments are being made by people who have obviously never owned a business in the newer world market of internet sales. Without MAP, you would likely see all your favorite resellers pack up, forcing the manufacturer to handle all sales and customer service. Personally, I prefer to deal with a reputable, knowledgable, and friendly reseller, rather than the manufacturer.

On that note, I still believe the way Premier ultimately handled this was horrible...at the very least, they should have given their loyal customer (Liberty) a warning or a slap on the wrist. Cutting him out completely is going off the deep end and potentially hurts Premiers reputation in the community that has been supporting them from the beginning.


 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

The math in this whole scenario is very simple if you ask me.

I have had dealings with Liberty Optics and would most deffinately use their services again if given the opportunity.

ATI sound like a bunch of assholes.

The sheer volume of responses in this thread vs how longs it been up puts it as the number one hot topic I have ever seen on the hide.

I think this has done shitty things for Premier so this is their problem. If they want to do that to a good vendor and act like children about it by not returning phone calls, then suffer the consequences and lose business from it.

This is just another reason why I will stand by Nightforce as my prefered choice.

FU Premier, you dogged out on a brother and will lose valuable business from it.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

In the long run I think this thread will do just as much harm to LO as it will do to Premier/ATI. LO deals mainly in tactical optics and this is a tactical geared forum. Many of the tactical manufactures most likely patrol this forum and in some cases are active members . All of these guys have MAP nowadays and LO has a reputation for being the go to guy for getting something cheaper than MAP. LO has broadcasted Premier/ATI’s business with Scott but he has also revealed his own practices to all future potential manufactures. I doubt they will want to sell to LO as they don’t want to be forced into the same scenario as Premier/ATI was. His ability to pick up future products will adversely be effected. For everyone saying they’re going to get something else from Scott it may be inadvertently impossible.

This is just a bad deal all around.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Well so much for that purchase, will go with US Optics now instead... That type of behavior is not tolerated when it comes to spending MY money. I'll be sure and print this off and post it at both shooting clubs. No one should deal with this, therefore I shall post it for them to see for themselves....

Boycott them...
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LO has a reputation for being the go to guy for getting something cheaper than MAP </div></div>

And *THAT* is where you and the rest of Scott's competitors are wrong. I would venture that Scott has a small percentage of faithful customers due to his looking out for our pocketbooks. But the majority of us, and I'll speak for us (the rest will chime in, or already have...) are loyal to Scott because he cares about us. He takes the time to make sure we get the right product, and when that doesn't work out, he'll fix it even if it costs him personally. He takes time with us on the phone (or personally) to listen to us, understand our needs and fill them appropriately.

Scott cares about people. I know this, because I know him, personally. He is an ethical person and that steers his business. He cares about each one of his customers and is not in it to make a quick internet buck. And that, I would conjecture is the issue here. Scott's competitors apparently don't want to put that much work into their business. It's a LOT of work to develop relationships. If they can get Scott out of the way, they can lower the bar. Scott is an annoyance because he harkens back to the old days, when people really got to know each other and business was done on a handshake.

This is not just an attack on Liberty Optics or Scott Berish. It is another shot at the way we used to be. The value we put on relationships in business and (as others have said) a free market managed by gentlemen, not the legal fine print.

John
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Further thought...I can understand if the company wants to price like that.. but it's flat out the way they went about throwing Liberty Optics to the wolves that is intolerable.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MtGoat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Correct me if I am wrong but MP is not legl in the "free market economy" hence the MAP policies.
Pat </div></div>

Pat this a great question and I think a source of confusion in this thread.

As I understand it, illegal collusion would be if 4 of the 5 top manufacturers came together and set price so as to create a scheme that injured the 5th or in some way cheated / defrauded the consumer.

That isn't what is happening here.

As I understand the situation we have manufacturer A selling to stocking dealer B under the terms of a non exclusive agreement to represent manufacturer A. That is a private agreement that is not subject to anti trust laws.

We'd need to read what the agreement actually states to know for sure, but the strong inference from the portion of the email in the OP to the stocking dealers effectively said - if you want to sell our goods - you need to charge MAP. It is also likely that the agreement specifically states that no notice of termination is required and that such termination can be effectuated without cause or for minimal cause. There may even be some form of default and remedy provision within the agreement favoring the manufacturer.

General thoughts:

A) Everyone that is bagging on PR - how many of you have invested in your own company and gone out and set your own nuts on the line? How many of you same folks bemoan US companies for going off shore? Or US manufactured product market erosion b/c of perceived failures in trade regs (dumping of steel or timber come to mind). Ask yourself - given the narrowness of the market at the top, and given the fledgling nature of PR's endeavor, coupled with some of the rockiness they have experienced - wouldn't expect them to enforce MAP in an effort to guarantee success? Be consistent in your thoughts about American business - PR has the right to do this and the right to enforce it. Don't like it, don't buy it.

B) Someone hit the nail on the head - in essence, strong enforcement of MAP generally favors a product that is not capable of securing the same value in the market place if relegated to pure competitive forces.

C) Personally, I think the OP should be altered to reflect the fact that it is very possible PR IS in the right on this matter.


*I am not an attorney*

Good luck </div></div>

I just remember when the shoe was on the other foot a number of SH members stepped up for PR and backed them 100% in an assorted number of ways. memories seem to be short but as has already been pointed out PR has not responded. Hopefully this can be worked out and all back to "normal"....time will tell.

It still seems to me that price fixing or compelling a retailer to sell for a certain price falls well into the gray area or is illegal but I believe my Business Law books are long gone to try and find the references I seem to remember.

It seems that there should have been some dialog before the contract was terminated. As you pointed out the fine print is where the details of the contract are defined and only those involved know the details.

Again hopefully this was just a misunderstanding and things can be worked out.

Pat
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Do we ? I mean it's not like it matters. To me what matters is the way it was done. Where is the loyalty.. Liberty showed their loyalty. ATI are a bunch of dirt bags. Really a sting operation?

With some people in this thread stating that our actions don't matter... Really... Well if this thread can hurt them financially. They and the other manufactures will take notice.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

On June 28, 2007, the Supreme Court overruled Dr. Miles, discussed below, holding that such vertical price restraints as Minimum Advertised Pricing are not per se unlawful but, rather, must be judged under the "rule of reason." Leegin Creative Leather Products, Inc. v. PSKS, Inc., Slip Op. No. 06–480 (Decided June 28, 2007).[4] This marked a dramatic shift on how attorneys and enforcement agencies address the legality of contractual minimum prices, and essentially allowed the reestablishment of resale price maintenance in the United States in most (but not all) commercial situations.

In Dr. Miles Medical Co. v. John D. Park and Sons, 220 U.S. 373 (1911), the United States Supreme Court affirmed a lower court's holding that a massive minimum resale price maintenance scheme was unreasonable and thus offended Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act. The decision rested on the assertion that minimum resale price maintenance is indistinguishable in economic effect from naked horizontal price fixing by a cartel. Subsequent decisions characterized Dr Miles as holding that minimum resale price maintenance is unlawful per se - that is, without regard to its impact on the marketplace or consumers

Guess Miles v Parks it was over-turned.

Pat
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I was one of the original posters to this thread and wow...it has sure taken off. I am sure people feel very strongly about Liberty Optics and MAP pricing. The funny thing is that in the optics market this seems to very prevalent. Try finding a Nightforce Optic for less than MAP. American business is kind of funny on pricing. I can barter all I want with a car salesman on buying a car (MSRP - who buys at that) but can't do it for optics. I can barter when I buy a house but I can't when I buy clothes in a store. So what do we do, we go around and look for the best prices on items and shop there. I believe that was what Sam Walton was after. Lower prices but selling at high quantities.

I, as a consumer, chose who I want to spend my money on and with. I have dealt with Scott at Liberty Optics and I like the way he conducts business so I choose to go to him for my optics. He knows he is not the only optics dealer and he has to do some things to entice customers to buy from him. He also knows that Sniper's Hide has lots of guys that are willing to spend big bucks on their toys so he wants to take care of us; it is all about the volume. He is willing to take less for an optic if he can get more people to buy from him. That is the retail game. Wal-Mart plays it every day.

After what I have seen and read I didn't like the way ATI and Premier did this sting so I chose not to buy products from them. My choice as well as others here. You read and take a stand. <span style="color: #FF0000">Money talks in business</span>
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Either way the caselaw falls at the moment, it's telling that Premier's business practices are borderline illegal in the US, and illegal in much of the rest of the world. Says something about their character, and ways of doing business...
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LO has a reputation for being the go to guy for getting something cheaper than MAP </div></div>

And *THAT* is where you and the rest of Scott's competitors are wrong. I would venture that Scott has a small percentage of faithful customers due to his looking out for our pocketbooks. But the majority of us, and I'll speak for us (the rest will chime in, or already have...) are loyal to Scott because he cares about us. He takes the time to make sure we get the right product, and when that doesn't work out, he'll fix it even if it costs him personally. He takes time with us on the phone (or personally) to listen to us, understand our needs and fill them appropriately.

Scott cares about people. I know this, because I know him, personally. He is an ethical person and that steers his business. He cares about each one of his customers and is not in it to make a quick internet buck. And that, I would conjecture is the issue here. Scott's competitors apparently don't want to put that much work into their business. It's a LOT of work to develop relationships. If they can get Scott out of the way, they can lower the bar. Scott is an annoyance because he harkens back to the old days, when people really got to know each other and business was done on a handshake.

This is not just an attack on Liberty Optics or Scott Berish. It is another shot at the way we used to be. The value we put on relationships in business and (as others have said) a free market managed by gentlemen, not the legal fine print.

John </div></div>

^^^^^^ This.....is 100% accurate and my experience in dealing with Scott and Lorraine both.He also makes himself available after normal business hours,don't see that too often either.He has earned my loyalty.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Hey, the Hide is a family.

It irks me that this Terry Dean guy pretended to be a Hide member to do this to Scott.

Anyone got the rules on that? Any legal recourse available?
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevlars</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well Crap ... and I was going to purchase one for an expected rifle ... with that response from ATI ... I will never purchase a Premiere scope or ANYTHING from ATI--

I hope Hide members also "Boycott" this behavior-- There are other optics that are as good or better out there.

I hope things work out for you guys. </div></div>

F'n roger that! After buying from dealing with Scott @ Liberty Optic's, I told myself I would only be buying from him so long as he had that product. Total professional with next day delivery.

For Scott,

Don't stress Premier brother. They are not to popular around this camp fire anyhow. Stay around here and research what's is working best for the masses and go with it. Steiner seems like a good replacement for your Premier product line. Other than that Vortex, S&B, Valdada, Hendsoldt and Nightforce seem to be doing very well.

Nightforce is comming out with their new scope before to long. I will buy one off of you as soon as you get them in.

Don't stress it Scott. Your salesmanship and professionalism is still second to none.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Take care and God Bless.
Respectfully,
Sv</span>
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^^^^^ This.....is 100% accurate and my experience in dealing with Scott and Lorraine both.He also makes himself available after normal business hours,don't see that too often either.He has earned my loyalty. </div></div>
Such a Gosh damn backstabbing business I swear to God. It's to bad even a great person Like Scott has to deal with bs like this. I will say this; if Scott does not carry it, I WILL NOT BUY IT period.

Don't stress it Scott! After reading through this thread, it seems like many of us have your back brother! Screw those @$$hole c@ksm0ker's!

<span style="font-weight: bold">Take care and God Bless.
Respectfully,
Sv</span>
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I have read a lot of the posts here and I can't say I disagree with to many. I will say this that Scott is a stand up guy and helpful in my experience with him. I have talked to him on the phone quite a bit and even if I'm not buying he will always give me info.

MAP can be understandable but as a scope maker if I get my money on the scopes that I send out why would I care ? When should it become a fact that "Oh because of that invoice its given our product a bad name"?!?!?!?!? WTF??? Seriously????? One thing is for DAMN sure that if my product is top of the line its not the MUTHA FUTHA money that has to dictate that at all. Another words I can make a piece of SHIIIIIITTTTTTT product and put a MAP way up there and expect that the price will help it sell ??? Once people get my piece of shit product they will see the piece of shit it is and that will be final. Now if the product works and the company stands behind it sell the product itself will sell not the MOT&*#&#(&^#FU*%&*@#G PRICE !!!!!!!!!!!! Scott should have been given a Notice to change what he is doing before being suspended as a Dealer for PR but has been done is done.


Hope the for the best for you Scott


Regards Aron-
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Bought an Acog from LO and Scott. He did a great job and sent it out right away. Fast shipping and good service. Wont buy a Premier just because now.

BUT

I refuse to wear the knee-pads like the rest of you guys........

smile.gif
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

F*ck um Scott you have plenty of other fine optics to sell to loyal clients. I am super happy with the service you gave on my purchase and will again at some point just ask you what should I get for this. You suggestion to me was dead on perfect and I appreciated your service. PG
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Jrob: Excellent post!!! I agree 100% that this is attack on level of support and business ethics.

Even if we forget MAP/price fixing/fairness/manufactures/cartels/whatever we still have dirty, dishonest entrapment and in the end a company which obviously doesn't think ethics, good customer base is something they would like to see in their dealers. They've chosen cutthroat, unethical, conmen to represent and sell their products over business with integrity, great customer relations and above all honesty.

Remember the cooking of frog? Well same goes for consumer rights and if you guys accept such practices, such practices you'll get. But i think that vast majority of people here have enough brains to see through this and will no accept such shit. For those devil advocates who just can't help themselves i suggest taking a dollar or three and throw them away as that's exactly what will happen if customers accept any kind of behavior from dealers or manufacturers - remember free market economy is tug of war between parties not directed economy.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was gonna pull the trigger on a PR....", " I was getting ready to buy a PR...", "I'm going SB now..." blah blah blah. All bullshit troiling IMO. Same shit as, "man, good snag! If I was only sooner.." or " God, someone please buy this before I jizz in my pants!". Retarded. </div></div>

Do you hear that whistling noise? It's getting louder and louder like something falling through the air.... it's wait.... the resale value of your Premier scopes...

In all seriousness, I do understand your frustration. I bought my Premier scope shortly before the rumor mill about Premier being on the precipice of bankruptcy hit these forums. I had bought my Premier from Scott and when i called him about everything he was honest and straight with me, said if I was that worried he'd see me right about the scope but said I should wait it out. I did, Premier didn't go bust and I was able to sell my scope (I preferred the Hensoldt) at a small profit even.

Scott was a MAJOR contributor to Premier's early success if only for the high number of scopes he put into the market. By doing so word got out, more people were able to look through their buddy's Premier to see for themselves the glass and heft of them. And then Premier brags about making an example of Scott. Instead they should have called Scott BEFORE he got the letter, should have warned Scott that ATI don't play nice and should have looked out for Scott and been loyal to him in the manner he was to them... Chris Thomas didn't even return his messages. A simple phone call and some basic decency would have prevented a lot of stupidity.

I doubt Premier's latest example of Public Relations Holocaust will effect the second hand market of their scopes (no money is going to Premier so why should it), but it deserves to dent their new scopes sales and judging by all the posts here, it probably will. In fact, I'd be interested to see how far up the Google list this thread makes it when someone Google's "Premier Heritage Scope"... talk about unintended consequences.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was gonna pull the trigger on a PR....", " I was getting ready to buy a PR...", "I'm going SB now..." blah blah blah. All bullshit troiling IMO. Same shit as, "man, good snag! If I was only sooner.." or " God, someone please buy this before I jizz in my pants!". Retarded. </div></div>

Do you hear that whistling noise? It's getting louder and louder like something falling through the air.... it's wait.... the resale value of your Premier scopes...

In all seriousness, I do understand your frustration. I bought my Premier scope shortly before the rumor mill about Premier being on the precipice of bankruptcy hit these forums. I had bought my Premier from Scott and when i called him about everything he was honest and straight with me, said if I was that worried he'd see me right about the scope but said I should wait it out. I did, Premier didn't go bust and I was able to sell my scope (I preferred the Hensoldt) at a small profit even.

Scott was a MAJOR contributor to Premier's early success if only for the high number of scopes he put into the market. By doing so word got out, more people were able to look through their buddy's Premier to see for themselves the glass and heft of them. And then Premier brags about making an example of Scott. Instead they should have called Scott BEFORE he got the letter, should have warned Scott that ATI don't play nice and should have looked out for Scott and been loyal to him in the manner he was to them... Chris Thomas didn't even return his messages. <span style="font-weight: bold">A simple phone call and some basic decency would have prevented a lot of stupidity.</span>

I doubt Premier's latest example of Public Relations Holocaust will effect the second hand market of their scopes (no money is going to Premier so why should it), but it deserves to dent their new scopes sales and judging by all the posts here, it probably will. In fact, I'd be interested to see how far up the Google list this thread makes it when someone Google's "Premier Heritage Scope"... talk about unintended consequences.</div></div>

That my friend is something long gone in todays society
eek.gif
sad but true. They would rather work behind someones back and let the loyal person die for a couple of extra dollars that they might get from the mo*&^& FU%#*$ING SNITCH! Really sad world. Like jrob said its not the handshake business of the olden days anymore its about deceiving people for money.
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

If it wasnt for the IDIOT ACT.. sorry PATRIOT ACT... Liberty Optics
should have gotten a new customer...
seems to be a nice guy...
 
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: netranger6</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"I was gonna pull the trigger on a PR....", " I was getting ready to buy a PR...", "I'm going SB now..." blah blah blah. All bullshit troiling IMO. Same shit as, "man, good snag! If I was only sooner.." or " God, someone please buy this before I jizz in my pants!". Retarded. </div></div>

Isnt it more retarded to go for PR over S&B, bottom line?