Rifle Scopes We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

#151
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Tag cause I have to see how this plays out, but also I do see hide members being a band of fellow shooters that work together for a common goal (funny sounds like something we all heard at basic) \
Loyalty goes a long way on this site because most of us lived by it in military or LE or we are just country boys that have a since of right and wrong and no matter how legal or great an idea MAP violates that, and the actions taken against Scott has rubbed us wrong.
I use SB's and was on the fence about premiers for a new comp rifle but now that will never be.
To you people defending map, this is America where good products are priced high because they are worth it, not some commy BS about market control (lol i really impressed myself with the communist reference there ha)
 
#152
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Scott, ironic to see this after just contacting you yesterday wondering why Premier was off your site. I was all set to buy an LT, but no longer feel the enthusiasm.

Let's get this straight. Despite what a few have said, the product is good. But I think Premier has made some serious missteps in getting their products to market (one of the reasons they lost out to Leupy on the 1-8X USMC contract...and there's an example of taxpayer gouging if there ever was one!). They still do not have the rep that S&B, NF, Hensoldt or USO do. So to screw one of their first and best dealers is worse than Chris' "nunya" PR debacle.

If Premier was smart, they'd shitcan ATI and hire Scott to distribute their scopes. Also, in this day and age, why really worry about MAP and retail distribution? Scopes like these never show up in regular sporting goods stores anyway. Be like SWFA and direct-sell the product and if dealers want to carry it, let them charge what they may. The computer industry does fine selling hardware without a bunch of middlemen.
 
#153
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ceylonc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Am I the only one who just noticed that the 'Hide has a new member as of today...

ATI
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=52985

Zero posts yet but hopefully they will find something meaningful to contribute...

Hang in there Scott, you run a class shop. </div></div>
Maybe they can chime in with their .02?
 
#154
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TheOneTwo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ouch, this is going to get ugly for Premier. In a way I almost feel bad for Premier. Almost.

Good for you Scott, way to do the right thing. </div></div>
Don't forget this clown http://www.gbstumpp.com/philo.html Terry Dean.

That is another place I would not have anything to do with.

Just my .02
 
#155
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullshit on this thread is amazing.

I fully support MAP, and I think that if Liberty Optics printed a lower price on an invoice, then Liberty screwed up. Special discounts like for the Hide should be done only over the phone, or in company coupons. (ie, enter "ILOVESH" for a 10% discount on your order, etc etc)

<span style="font-weight: bold">MAP keeps product value up for companies, and it seems just about everyone on here is a consumer, no inventors/product developers/business managers. Yall need to see it from the other side of the coin, below MAP pricing HURTS THE COMPANY AND THE PRODUCT.</span></div></div>

Can you explain this? If all companies pay the same for a product, selling less than MAP only cuts into the dealers profit, does it not? The part of MAP that seems ridiculous to myself, is that the market does not dictate it. The company makes up a price they feel the product is worth and puts it out there with a MAP. What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price. That would eliminate the issues.
 
#156
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GasLight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The problem isn't JUST Premier or their dealer/distributor network. This happens to be one of the more extreme cases, and will end up causing some speed bumps in Scott and Premier's businesses. The real problem though is corporate America. We don't live in capitalist America anymore. It is easy to complain and bitch about what these big companies are doing to us, but they keep rolling... The power still lies with the people, unfortunately it seems that not enough care anymore. For every person who thinks this is shitty business on the part of Premier, there are 10 who want to be cool and have the same scope the USMC uses... Go figure, its the same WalMart, eBay, PayPal story all over again, someone gets big enough and they call the shots, the sheeple with follow all it takes is some marketing </div></div>

+1 I would also add that it is good to see how many of us are upset. But the big question is how many of us will take time out of our day to write ATI, PR, and Stumpp to let them know how we feel. And how many will really make them feel the hurt with our $$$?

This is what really counts! Those that are upset and do nothing but add a post to this thread just make things worse because no voice is heard and no changes are made. This concept is also what is wrong with our political system. We have all the power to change things but most aren't willing to sacrifice, time, money and comfort. Sad but true.
 
#157
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

What a low down, backstabbing, underhanded thing to do. What happenned to being on the same damn team. Ill NEVER own any other Premier Heritage Product.. I now regret buying what I have.

IMO: Premier should be thanking you for doing such a great job Scott.

Im so disgusted that I am speechless.

Dont worry Scott, we will all buy some other scope from you.

The hell with them.
 
#158
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullshit on this thread is amazing.

I fully support MAP, and I think that if Liberty Optics printed a lower price on an invoice, then Liberty screwed up. Special discounts like for the Hide should be done only over the phone, or in company coupons. (ie, enter "ILOVESH" for a 10% discount on your order, etc etc)

<span style="font-weight: bold">MAP keeps product value up for companies, and it seems just about everyone on here is a consumer, no inventors/product developers/business managers. Yall need to see it from the other side of the coin, below MAP pricing HURTS THE COMPANY AND THE PRODUCT.</span></div></div>

Can you explain this? If all companies pay the same for a product, selling less than MAP only cuts into the dealers profit, does it not? The part of MAP that seems ridiculous to myself, is that the market does not dictate it. The company makes up a price they feel the product is worth and puts it out there with a MAP. <span style="color: #FF0000">What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price.</span> That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

i haven't seen it posted here but this may or many not have been in their agreement. this little bit of information would be good to know <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> the dog pile gets started.
 
#159
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I'm withholding comment until this thread has been hot for 24 hours. The other side deserves a chance to say their piece.
 
#160
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I think Premier just devalued it's own scopes by doing this.

Might as well be the new Counter Sniper.
 
#162
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Can you explain this?</span> If all companies pay the same for a product, selling less than MAP only cuts into the dealers profit, does it not? The part of MAP that seems ridiculous to myself, is that the market does not dictate it. The company makes up a price they feel the product is worth and puts it out there with a MAP. What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price. That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

Yes, easily.

The company DOESNT CARE what the scope sells for to the customer. You're right, selling less only cuts into dealers profits, the scope maker still makes the same amount of money whether the scope is overpriced or on clearance.

It doesn't change anything about how the scope is advertised to OTHER POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS.

The reason for MAP is, it tells everyone in the industry that the scope is worth XXX number of dollars. Whether person 1, 2 or 3 all bought it for more of less doesn't matter, those are individual deals. The scope company just wants to make sure that the INDUSTRY values their scope at least at a certain price (MAP), so that the scope retains an image of that much quality.

If someone started printing prices that showed those scopes for half price, then people would wonder if the scope is only worth that much, and not be willing to pay full price.


High prices have the ILLUSION of quality, thats how Countersniper scopes are sold.
laugh.gif
 
#163
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm withholding comment until this thread has been hot for 24 hours. The other side deserves a chance to say their piece. </div></div>

I would love for both parties ATI and GB Stump to chime in on this one.

I am still on Scott/Liberty Optics side on this one, and I highly doubt I can be converted. Mainly because of the cry-baby way Stump did his deal!! To hell with MAP and I hope both ATI and GB Stump and Assoc. feel the impact of the backdoor deal they did to Liberty Optics.

Who here on Snipershide, who has ever talked to Scott can say they felt like they were done wrong?! I sure in the hell know that I cant.

Take care of the people that care of you!!

Anxiously waiting for ATI and Stump to chime in on this one, especially since Stump is supposedly a member here.
 
#164
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price.</span> That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

They can't.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i haven't seen it posted here but this may or many not have been in their agreement. this little bit of information would be good to know <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> the dog pile gets started. </div></div>

That's not, what if the scope is discontinued, replaced, recalled, or the store goes out of business? Then they're stuck with inventory that is either not worth the asking price and/or needs to be sold immediately.

Besides, imagine the privacy/paperwork issues with distributors requiring stores to send in their sales prices for a certain item.
 
#165
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Also guys keep in mind that MANY other good, upstanding companies are reading what you're saying.

I sure would like to hear their opinions on this.
 
#166
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price.</span> That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

They can't.
</div></div>


Yes they can, and they already did.

<span style="font-style: italic">1) Minimum Advertised Price is not a benchmark by which to offer a discounted price; it is the price the consumer should expect to pay. We expect Premier Dealers to foster that concept by exhibiting a price on their advertising and marketing materials and websites, and that price should be not less than MAP. The practice of displaying statements such as “call for price” or “call for best price” is not deemed to be acceptable.</span>



Good luck
 
#167
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

What a REAL Eye-Opener! Set-up a guy who was there for you when you were down. Stick-it to him when you are up. Premier loses the military contract to Leupold. KARMA IS A BITCH!

Thanks Scott for continuing to provide Great Products and Outstanding Customer Service to all of us who lay-down our Hard-Earned Cash in this Very Expensive Sport!!

Everyone should Fire-Back at Premier/ATI with their wallets,
and Support Scott/Liberty Optics!!!
 
#168
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mo_Zam_Beek</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="color: #FF0000">What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price.</span> That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

They can't.
</div></div>


Yes they can, and they already did.

<span style="font-style: italic">1) Minimum Advertised Price is not a benchmark by which to offer a discounted price; it is the price the consumer should expect to pay. We <span style="color: #FF0000">expect</span> Premier Dealers to foster that concept by exhibiting a price on their advertising and marketing materials and websites, and that price should be not less than MAP. The practice of displaying statements such as “call for price” or “call for best price” is not deemed to be acceptable.</span>



Good luck </div></div>

I was going to stay away from Mo because he sounds like a lawyer, but no where in the above quote did I see "Will Sell For" or "Will Pay", all I saw was "expect". I expect to see some Social Security money when I get to the appropriate age, will I?, probably not. No where in ATI's rule #1 does it say that the consumer will pay MAP. "We expect Premier dealers to foster that concept by exhibiting a price on thier advertising and marketing materials and websites, and that price should not be less than MAP." No where did I see "Will". If I were to call any dealer that had a price listed on thier marketing/advertising materials...that is the price I would expect to pay, good on any dealer for helping the consumer to keep a little extra in their pocket.

Ex. of Will and Expect
1. I will not buy anything related to ATI or Stump. This means it isnt going to happen.

2. I expect I will not buy anything from ATI or Stump. Leaves some wiggle room.

expect; to look forward to; regard as likely to happen; anticipate the occurrence or the coming of: I expect to read it. I expect him later.

will; (used as a verb) takes an infinitive without to or an implied infinitive
 
#169
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<span style="font-weight: bold">Can you explain this?</span> If all companies pay the same for a product, selling less than MAP only cuts into the dealers profit, does it not? The part of MAP that seems ridiculous to myself, is that the market does not dictate it. The company makes up a price they feel the product is worth and puts it out there with a MAP. What companies really need to do is tell dealers they cannot, under any circumstance, sell below XYZ price. That would eliminate the issues. </div></div>

Yes, easily.

<span style="font-weight: bold">The company DOESNT CARE what the scope sells for to the customer</span>. You're right, selling less only cuts into dealers profits, the scope maker still makes the same amount of money whether the scope is overpriced or on clearance.

It doesn't change anything about how the scope is advertised to OTHER POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS.

The reason for MAP is, it tells everyone in the industry that the scope is worth XXX number of dollars. Whether person 1, 2 or 3 all bought it for more of less doesn't matter, those are individual deals. The scope company just wants to make sure that the INDUSTRY values their scope at least at a certain price (MAP), so that the scope retains an image of that much quality.

If someone started printing prices that showed those scopes for half price, then people would wonder if the scope is only worth that much, and not be willing to pay full price.


High prices have the ILLUSION of quality, thats how Countersniper scopes are sold.
laugh.gif
</div></div>

But, in this case, they do. LO didn't advertise the price, he sold it at a lower than MAP price. And stop bagging on the CS. It has some kind of lens coatings that I cannot pronounce. And I be good at readen.
 
#170
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mm509</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I was going to stay away from Mo because he sounds like a lawyer, but no where in the above quote did I see "Will Sell For" or "Will Pay", all I saw was "expect". I expect to see some Social Security money when I get to the appropriate age, will I?, probably not. No where in ATI's rule #1 does it say that the consumer will pay MAP. "We expect Premier dealers to foster that concept by exhibiting a price on thier advertising and marketing materials and websites, and that price should not be less than MAP." No where did I see "Will". If I were to call any dealer that had a price listed on thier marketing/advertising materials...that is the price I would expect to pay, good on any dealer for helping the consumer to keep a little extra in their pocket.

Ex. of Will and Expect
1. I will not buy anything related to ATI or Stump. This means it isnt going to happen.

2. I expect I will not buy anything from ATI or Stump. Leaves some wiggle room.

expect; to look forward to; regard as likely to happen; anticipate the occurrence or the coming of: I expect to read it. I expect him later.

will; (used as a verb) takes an infinitive without to or an implied infinitive </div></div>


i guess then if a dealer sells for less than the manufacture/distributor <span style="font-style: italic">expects</span> them to, they <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> no longer sell to that dealer.
 
#171
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

300sniper you are correct. That is the nice part of being an American-having the constitutional right to do what you want to with you product. I agree, but Scott paid them for thier products, so technically it is now property of Liberty Optics, unless he was merely leasing thier products from them, where ATI still maintains ownership of the said product.

I do agree that ATI does have the right to no longer fulfill orders to Liberty Optics, and that is fine. They just could have gotten to that point in a more tactful manner, rather than sending in a CHEESE EATING RAT.
 
#172
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But, in this case, they do. LO didn't advertise the price, he sold it at a lower than MAP price.
</div></div>

Well see, that's where the "tiny mistake" comes in. By printing the lower price, even on a sold invoice, its documentation in the industry of a cheaper product.

For a $100 MAP product, an invoice that reads:
______

$90 Scope

Total: $90
______

is a violation, while an invoice that reads:
______

$100 Scope

%10 discount for coupon code "ILOVESH"

Total: $90
______

is not. The problem is not the selling point, the problem is the scopes price. The scope looks less valuable on the first receipt.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And stop bagging on the CS. It has some kind of lens coatings that I cannot pronounce. And I be good at readen. </div></div>

laugh.gif
Daz right, and the super secret hidden military contract.
 
#173
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I dont own one and never will.

Right now theres so many great scope that are just hitting the market or will soon be on the market that are just as good as Premier.

Setting someone up for failure is absolute BS
 
#174
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
But, in this case, they do. LO didn't advertise the price, he sold it at a lower than MAP price.
</div></div>

Well see, that's where the "tiny mistake" comes in. By printing the lower price, even on a sold invoice, its documentation in the industry of a cheaper product.

</div></div>

This tiny mistake part is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.

Just a method of shifting some of the blame to the good guy, or attempting to justify straight up dirty behavior.

Whether or not Scotty violated the letter of the law, he did not violate the spirit of it. And there is no way anyone is going to convince me that PR and whomever else is involved is not just plain shady. In attempting to drop a gotcha moment of Scotty, and thereby putting themselves in a position to more easily charge us more, they fucked themselves.

No two ways about it, that behavior is just shady and they inadvertently outed themselves as dirtbags and if anything, increased Soctty's rep amongst his devoted customer base.
 
#175
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I was strongly considering a Premier for my next optic. After seeing this and how they treat their vendors, I can't imagine that they would treat a customer much better if push came to shove. I think I will pass and get something else.

Scott has always treated me fairly and whenever I need anything I call him first. He is a stand up guy and should be treated better than this. If you have to run stings to keep your vendors in line, you've done something terribly wrong.
 
#176
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

ATI 's address and contact info as listed on the Premier website.

3045 Robie Street, Suite 113
Halifax NS B3K
902-454-6384
[email protected]

NOVA SCOTIA I thought they couldnt have guns in CANADA what they need glass 4?

International price fixing?? Someone contact the Montana US Attorneys Office and ask if any Federal laws have been broken by ATI's rat conduct?


Drop them a nice constructive email letting them know how you feel
 
#177
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Premiere, so worried about their reputation and value, should be willing to buy back all Premiere scopes sold through liberty right? Are you ready to start printing checks Permiere? Im ready to return product! I value the relationship the vendor has with the manufacturer because he's the one with the voice and will get me service if need be. Now that he is cut off I no longer feel supported with this product and whish to return it.
 
#178
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullshit on this thread is amazing.

I fully support MAP, and I think that if Liberty Optics printed a lower price on an invoice, then Liberty screwed up. Special discounts like for the Hide should be done only over the phone, or in company coupons. (ie, enter "ILOVESH" for a 10% discount on your order, etc etc)

</div></div>

Apart from you liking to throw your money away which is up to you (hey if you love paying way more and it makes you feel special, have fun I won't stop you). Your logic there leaves a bit to be desired. Liberty optics exactly abided by advertising the manufacturer's requested miminum advertised price, they even quoted it to the customer. Then when the customer asked them for a special discount due to being a hide member, they verbally gave him one. Then once the sale was concluded, they provided an accurate invoice with the shipment of the item.

So what are you suggesting? They start printing false invoices for the customers with bogus information? I'm sure that would go over really well with the IRS

The invoice is supposed to be an accurate record of what was delivered and the end total that was paid, it is not an advertisement.

The idiots at PH got the same amount of money from Scott no matter what he sold it for. How on earth are you claiming that this is "hurting them", it's simply about being evil and wanting others to screw over the customers. Minimum selling prices are illegal in alot of the world and maybe we need to try to get similar laws passed here.

You seem to think Consumers magically have money that just appears in their wallets? Maybe for you? But for most of us we are very familiar with trying to earn a living and offering a competitive value for either goods or services. If I agree to sell you xxx widgets at xxx price apart from wanting to rip people off over pride and saying who is the most expensive retail item, I have made the same profit for the items regardless of what you sell it to the next buyer for.
 
#179
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

What a cocky, shitty reasoning Premier is using, I cannot understand why they put up with an act giving the fact that customers are already starting ro raise questions concerning their quality..

Schmidt & Bender gets my money in the future as well it seems...
 
#180
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Here is the contact info for the price fixer/enforcer anyone who wants to get his side of it. Off his website, lists all his sponsor companies too.

TERRY L. DEAN
President
243 East Main Street
Elbridge, NY 13060
TEL 315.689.5247
MOBILE 315.729.3525
FAX315.689.5249
[email protected]
Territory
New York State, Pennsylvania (Northern)
 
#181
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<span style="font-size: 20pt"><span style="color: #FF0000">READ THIS ENTIRE POST IF YOU WANT TO QUOTE ME IN THIS THREAD.</span></span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This tiny mistake part is neither here nor there as far as I am concerned.

Just a method of shifting some of the blame to the good guy, or attempting to justify straight up dirty behavior.

Whether or not Scotty violated the letter of the law, he did not violate the spirit of it. And there is no way anyone is going to convince me that PR and whomever else is involved is not just plain shady. In attempting to drop a gotcha moment of Scotty, and thereby putting themselves in a position to more easily charge us more, they fucked themselves.

No two ways about it, that behavior is just shady and they inadvertently outed themselves as dirtbags and if anything, increased Soctty's rep amongst his devoted customer base.

</div></div>

You guys are all kinds of F'ed up.

Violated the letter but not the spirit? So you don't think anyone should get hammered for jaywalking then huh... The law isn't a "spritual" guidance, its a set of steadfast RULES.

I really don't see how you guys are all pissed off at Premier for this whole episode, I would be mad at ATI only.



Here's the common sense summary of what happened, which many of you seem to not get:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]Premier, just like everyone in the industry, set a MAP on their scopes to preserve their image of quality & high-end optics[*]Premier had someone in their company do a spot-check to make sure everyone was doing the right thing (not only completly acceptable, but something to be expected from any company work a d@mn.)[*]Premier found someone working for ATI, who works for them, violating the rules[*]Since there's a hierarchy, they don't deal with the ground level, they go to ATI and chastise them for selling below MAP[*]ATI gets chewed out for a second, and then fires the guy below them who screwed up, and then set the notice to everyone involved (including the guy at Premier), to make themselves look better, and give the impression that they fixed the problem.[/list]

So <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Premier </span></span>doesn't sound like it did anything wrong.

They spot checked, found a problem way down the line, and had the middleman fix it. That's EXPECTED.

So all yall b!tching about Premier, stop & think for a second. How about this:

- If a Company Commander spot checks a squad and finds one of the privates didn't bring all his gear, he doesn't grill the private. He goes to the Platoon Leader & Platoon Sergeant, and smokes the sh!t out of them, and tells them they better square their men away. Then, the PL & PSG go back and punish the private, LATER.

So, by your all logic, did the Company Commander set the private "up for failure"? Hell NO.

^ This makes perfect sense, because it took a MONTH for Liberty to hear about it, remember, the guy said he turned in the receipt a MONTH ago. In that timespan, ATI was probably getting chewed out, and figuring out what to do to to get back on Premiers good side.

Rather than warn/chastise/correct Liberty Optics on their mistake, they fired them. ATI DID, NOT PREMIER. Premier probably expected their employee (ATI), to chastise Liberty. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">The fact that Premier was CC'd on the termination notice email shows that they weren't involved in that decision.</span></span>



<span style="color: #FF0000">So long story short, all you people ragging on Premier and saying "i aint buying der stuff no morez", STFU.

Premier didn't fire a great hard working guy, Premiers EMPLOYEE (ATI) fired a great hard working guy.

Premier, running spot checks on their employees, ISNT SHADY OR BEING A DIRTBAG.</span>


And no, I have nothing to do with any company involved, nor own any Premier scopes. <span style="font-size: 14pt">But Premier isn't the bad guy here people, its the middleman.</span>
 
#182
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The bullshit on this thread is amazing.

I fully support MAP, and I think that if Liberty Optics printed a lower price on an invoice, then Liberty screwed up. Special discounts like for the Hide should be done only over the phone, or in company coupons. (ie, enter "ILOVESH" for a 10% discount on your order, etc etc)

</div></div>

MAP is minimum ADVERTISED price.

How else are they going to give someone an invoice. Under price are they going to print "click here to see price"?

As long as the below MAP price isn't visible on their website or ads they should be good. There was a huge thread on this on ar15.com, and the guys from magpul agreed with me on an argument over MAP and their magazines.
 
#183
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Perhaps a letter from each of us to each of his clients would be in order, letting them know what we think of the company they are associated with and perhaps suggesting they drop them like a hot rock before they spend twice as much on PR trying to undo the harm done.
 
#184
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

So what are you suggesting? They start printing false invoices for the customers with bogus information? I'm sure that would go over really well with the IRS

The invoice is supposed to be an accurate record of what was delivered and the end total that was paid, it is not an advertisement.</div></div>

You ijit, putting a COUPON on an invoice doesn't make it "false". All Liberty should have done was put the full price of the scope on invoice, and THEN ADD SOME KIND OF DISCOUNT (STORE CREDIT, COUPON, ETC).

But they obviously DIDNT, they lsited the scope with a lower price and included NO COUPON.
 
#185
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The idiots at PH got the same amount of money from Scott no matter what he sold it for. How on earth are you claiming that this is "hurting them", it's simply about being evil and wanting others to screw over the customers. </div></div>

It hurts them by making their scopes look cheap. How do you not understand that???

If you sell Ford Mustangs, and you start selling them for $5,000 less than everyone else in country, then people are ALL going to want to order their Ford Mustangs from you, cutting out all other dealers, and giving everyone the impression that Ford Mustangs should ALL cost $5,000 less.

THEN, future sales will drop. So its DOES hurt them.
 
#186
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

KSwift, drop the BS.

Premier have full freedom who they affiliate themselves with, if they decide ATI should run their agency they're also responsible for how this company treats their customers, and I havent heard a word about Premier trying to apologize for ATI's behaviour..
 
#187
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

If Premier wants to declare war on one dealer, they may win that battle. But if they take on the ENTIRE SNIPERSHIDE ARMY, well they may just get into a fight they cannot win.
 
#188
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You seem to think Consumers magically have money that just appears in their wallets? Maybe for you? But for most of us we are very familiar with trying to earn a living and offering a competitive value for either goods or services. </div></div>

You arrogant a$$hole, it's none of your business but no, the Army doesn't stuff my pockets, and I'm just as familiar with trying earn my living as "most of us".

Yet, I also recognize that some people earn their living by a product which has a reputation & price point to uphold.
 
#189
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

KSwift said:
"Violated the letter but not the spirit? So you don't think anyone should get hammered for jaywalking then huh... The law isn't a "spritual" guidance, its a set of steadfast RULES."

AHH no jaywalkers shouldnt get hammered in my opinion... easy there Himler,... oh and I roll through red lights at 3 a.m. with no cars around for miles, it happens , the spirit of the law exists... in my example its safety that matters not blindly sit at a light to follow the law for laws sake... to feel like a boyscout??? And Im in law enforcement so save the lecture been around too long to listen to the blind faith steadfast crew....... No offense but I thought your jaywalker example needed a lil perspective
Click to expand...
 
#190
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This behavior seriously undermines the value of the product in the eyes of the market and is particularly disruptive and damaging to the market distribution structure of Dealer and Stocking Dealer pricing....... </div></div>

I'm pretty sure they (PR/ATI) did just that with this whole episode..... They're rep as a company is now in the shitter, they're base clientel has diminished, and no matter how good a product is the customer has the final say if they wish to spend thousands of dollars on a product produced and supported by douchebags..... Or buy the other guys product that doesn't go out of thier way to fuck over their people...

I stand by my original statement, PR can go EADYFC....

JJ
 
#191
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: W54/XM-388</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The idiots at PH got the same amount of money from Scott no matter what he sold it for. How on earth are you claiming that this is "hurting them", it's simply about being evil and wanting others to screw over the customers. </div></div>

It hurts them by making their scopes look cheap. How do you not understand that???

</div></div>

No it hurts them because the end customers now understand that they are treating their resellers like crap, use sting operations to flush out anyone who believes in a free market pricing... Very chinese and cheap to me.
 
#192
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: woodspider</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I roll through red lights at 3 a.m. with no cars around for miles, it happens , the spirit of the law exists... in my example its safety that matters not blindly sit at a light to follow the law for laws sake... to feel like a boyscout??? And Im in law enforcement so save the lecture been around too long to listen to the blind faith steadfast crew....... No offense but I thought your jaywalker example needed a lil perspective </div></div>

So you're saying that no ones ever been hit by a car who ran a red light in the DARK OF NIGHT because they didn't see the person? I would say no, <span style="text-decoration: underline">people like you have accidently killed people</span>.

I sure hope every time you run those red lights in the darkness, you're VERY observant and your headlights are bright as hell.

No offense either, just another perspective.
laugh.gif
 
#193
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Exactly...ATI didn't act in a vacuum...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cazorp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KSwift, drop the BS.

Premier have full freedom who they affiliate themselves with, if they decide ATI should run their agency they're also responsible for how this company treats their customers, and I havent heard a word about Premier trying to apologize for ATI's behaviour..
</div></div>
 
#194
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

I own a PR 3-15 and at this point in the discussion I will refrain from any commentary about the quality ... good or bad. I think it is an unfortunate situation for Scott and leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth about ATI/PR practices.

I will say that if ATI had its way ... I wouldn't own one; it would have been too expensive for me to purchase.
When I got in the market for a "high-end" optic, I did my research and found that PR had the features that best suited my needs so I started looking for a dealer. I was budgeted at $2-2200 for rings and scope and a new PR had a list price that simply put it out of reach. I missed every used one that came up here and so I started looking for another brand that would come close to my requirements ... oh well I can't afford a McLaren F1 right now either
wink.gif

Then one day, during a scope discussion, someone said they had purchased a PR for less than list so I started CALLING dealers (not just looking at list on the web pages)and low and behold EVERY SINGLE DEALER I TALKED TO OFFERED ME A REDUCE PRICE and like most of us I took the best deal. I did end up over my budget but decide to cry once and move on
grin.gif


Realizing that I do not meet the standard set for by ATI, if they or PR would like to refund my entire purchase price I would be happy to give them back the scope so it can be sold to someone more deserving (read as - higher tax bracket) than me.
 
#195
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

What I wonder is who initially complained? I don't believe Premiere would do this out of the blue, there must be some other vendor that was upset because they wanted to sell PR at MAP and not have to compete. So they complained, and the crappy set up to frame LO started.

So you have to ask yourself - who has the most to gain from not having to compete with LO?
 
#196
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CRab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly...ATI didn't act in a vacuum...

</div></div>

I disagree with that guess completely. I think ATI did.

You two didn't seem to have the time to read my full post above, so I'll say it again:

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The fact that Premier was CC'd on the Termination Notice email and Premier hasn't yet responded to Liberty makes it sound like they heard about this the same time Liberty did.</span></span></span>
 
#197
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

Scott/LO, I didn't read all the banter in this thread but figured I'd chime in to you specifically. This is what the third time (that you've posted about) you've been bitten by companies and SH/fake-SH's members for your awesome pricing. Seems like there comes a point when you have to put your interests above cutting a few members a deal. Sucks but your customer service will keep people coming back despite the lack of a deal.

Side note: I'm sure the Premier guys are reading this thread too being that they used the site as a way to bait you into giving a discount so that can't help any future relations with them or other companies either.

-Cheers bud, still waiting for ya to come back my way to tour the breweries...
 
#198
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cazorp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... and I havent heard a word about Premier trying to apologize for ATI's behaviour..
</div></div>

Yes, but they haven't backed ATI either.

<span style="font-size: 17pt">I fully expected Premier to return LOs phone calls & hop on this thread and say,

"Hang on everyone, we just learned about this situation, stand by, working on it."

</span>
But until they say SOMETHING one way or the other, you can't blame them for this. For all we know, they're about to fire ATI and find a new distributor.
 
#199
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BapZander</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I wonder is who initially complained? I don't believe Premiere would do this out of the blue, there must be some other vendor that was upset because they wanted to sell PR at MAP and not have to compete. So they complained, and the crappy set up to frame LO started. </div></div>

You're probably right, and that's how communist countries like Soviet union were run back in the days, where the free market didn't existm and you created crap like your own exchange rates, food prices, availability etc etc.. is that what we consumers want?

If Liberty can attract customers the other resellers should ask themselves "how can I up my game" rather than start bitching and moaning to ATI or Premier..
 
#200
Re: We no longer sell Premier Heritage riflescopes

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KSwift</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CRab</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly...ATI didn't act in a vacuum...

</div></div>

I disagree with that guess completely. I think ATI did.

You two didn't seem to have the time to read my full post above, so I'll say it again:

<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">The fact that Premier was CC'd on the Termination Notice email and Premier hasn't yet responded to Liberty makes it sound like they heard about this the same time Liberty did.</span></span></span> </div></div>

I Dont care when PR found out about it they are still the manufacturers and they should have stood up and contacted ATI and told them to pull their heads in. if PR has not done this and appoligised to Scott and LO they deserve all they get. yes i own a PR scope and have reccomended them in the past but now i have a very bad taste in my mouth and feel like sending it back to them and will not tell anyone else about them. i have been recoemnding them on all of the top range long range rifles we build and people listen to the person building their custom rifle on what they should and should not use for the optics. PR will no longer be mentioned by me and i was slowly saving up for another one but not any more. And we are NF dealers here in Australia and i still reccomended people contact Scott at Liberty to get their scope the last guy payed MAP and was extremly happy with his purchase and amasing customer service.

This is just a shitty thing to do to a stand up guy and company that as others have said have bent over backwards to promote their product and get as many out there to the end user. I purchased the very first ones and was realy pissed when they were advertised later with a lower MAP and that was of their own doing and they devalued their own product and did not see anything wrong with it. i would like to see the gutless ass that did this come in and chime in and ATI now being a member should they be blacklisted for using the Hides name to do this to a board sponsor??????
 
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