Do you think “pros” come out the womb like that? It takes hard work. All ready enough divisions. Show up and shoot. If not getting a participation trophy makes someone feel bad then maybe a sport that gives them out might be better for their confidence. Lol
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Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
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Best way to kill the sport is sandbagging the crap out of it. Next best way is equipment creep to the point that the sport is unrecognizable from the original intended purpose. Stock car racing would be a great example. Moonshiners showcasing their skills against each other turns into something else completely. I suppose it doesn't kill the sport that way necessarily, but it surely changes it.
When you have eliminations and qualifications, pro and am golf have both, it eliminates the need for a handicap. You can't pay to play against the pros.Pro golf has a handicap system? Don’t make me laugh. Amateur golf using a ‘handicap’, but never in a major amateur event, e.g. US Amateur. I’m definitely not a beginner shooter and will be showing up, for my first match, w/an ex-course rifle in a PRS style/type stock that is sub 1/2 moa rifle. No ZCO (), but thats not an issue. And no, it won’t weigh 22 lbs. My point, w/high power, is it makes no sense to have a virgin shoot against a pro.
I mean obviously you’re too dense to see what I’m saying . No everyone shouldn’t get a trophy but you shouldn’t be rewarded for stepping down a division to stomp the noobs
So we’re calling names now? Lol
And it’s not stepping down shooting regional matches. It’s shooting matches.
Lol wasn’t name calling, and I’m entitled to my opinion that I don’t think pros should take prizes from regional matches when they don’t pay for their guns or components or whatever the limit of their sponsorship is against people who are shooting a lower division and do pay for their stuff. Ya I get it once upon a time they did, but they have moved past that now you can beat up on the ams when they go pro
And I’m entitled to my opinion from shooting this sport before the PRS was a wet dream of an idea and watching it get torn up with pro and am and this and that division etc. Go shoot a match. Have fun. That’s what it’s about.
The MDS guys have also suggested a weight-based system to sort shooters, fairly recently actually. I believe Caylen said that he’d split it at like sub-10 lbs, then again at like 16 or 18 lbs and over. His argument was that there is a much bigger difference between a 10-lb gun and a 12 than there was between a 12 and 16 or 18, I forget which he said.
Which is what @Diver160651 is suggesting. You’re suggesting a top-tier shooter would outshoot a mid-tier even if they used mid-tier equipment, by which I think you mostly mean cost rather weight. I think mostly folks agree with that statement, but a top shooter with an UL hunting rig versus a mid-pack shooter running a gamer gun might not play out the same. And any gun that rings in sub-10 with scope, mount, sling, any gamer plates, and bipod is quite light indeed. If it attaches to the gun during a COF then it goes on the scale.
Oh, and Caylen’s other point was that CF barrels make it much easier to shed weight, but they don’t help much below 10 lbs.
I'm sure a lot of folks will totally disagree but I think this obsession about trying to make all these classes and restrictions to try to ensure more people can be "winners" is a dead end logic loop.
The most enjoyable matches I ever shot were 400 yard Open benchrest matches a local range used to put on.
The rules were simply nothing over .338 and no rail guns and nobody helping you or spotting for you when you are up to shoot.
2 relays of 10 minutes to shoot 10 rounds at a grid of clay pigeon targets of different sizes and point values, in switching gusty wind conditions.
$50 buy in, and a small payout with bragging rights.
Both times, I showed up to shoot my .308 off the dirt, prone with a Harris bipod and a rear bag against others who were winching custom shooting benches to the line with benchrest rifles on high end mechanical rests. I had no illusions of winning but that made no difference to my enjoyment. Both times I came in around the 25th out of 50 range and had a great time and was pretty proud of my performance for how little prep I had.
Most all the other competitors had a great time as well.
The most enjoyable matches I ever shot were 400 yard Open benchrest matches a local range used to put on.
The rules were simply nothing over .338 and no rail guns and nobody helping you or spotting for you when you are up to shoot.
2 relays of 10 minutes to shoot 10 rounds at a grid of clay pigeon targets of different sizes and point values, in switching gusty wind conditions.
$50 buy in, and a small payout with bragging rights.
Both times, I showed up to shoot my .308 off the dirt, prone with a Harris bipod and a rear bag against others who were winching custom shooting benches to the line with benchrest rifles on high end mechanical rests. I had no illusions of winning but that made no difference to my enjoyment. Both times I came in around the 25th out of 50 range and had a great time and was pretty proud of my performance for how little prep I had.
Most all the other competitors had a great time as well.
For you guys wanting different classes based on weight of the rifle, just go shoot the NRL Hunter Series. You'll soon realize, the top shooters still finish on top with a lighter rifle, and the middle of the road shooters still finish somewhere in the middle.
Precision rifle is too small to get huge divisions. The production class is a joke. Why try to split it more? Do cash payout based on finish. Top tier/ 33%/66% down. 70%/17.5%/12.5% of the pot. Keeps the midlevel guys with some return and takes the pressure off of the sponsors. If any sponsors want to donate product, raffle it.
Precision rifle is cool, but it is not the end all for a rifleman. It gives an opportunity to practice, in depth, the function of a weapon, in very a restricted space. Use the other matches to get other exposure. NRL hunter, RTC team, Guardian, and multiple club level engagements.
We are not a huge community and opportunity for shooting is right now at a very high level. Support your local endeavors and talk to your MDs. Trying to make one thing fit everything will end up like an attempt to build one rifle to do everything. The rifle will be good, but not excel at anything.
Precision rifle is cool, but it is not the end all for a rifleman. It gives an opportunity to practice, in depth, the function of a weapon, in very a restricted space. Use the other matches to get other exposure. NRL hunter, RTC team, Guardian, and multiple club level engagements.
We are not a huge community and opportunity for shooting is right now at a very high level. Support your local endeavors and talk to your MDs. Trying to make one thing fit everything will end up like an attempt to build one rifle to do everything. The rifle will be good, but not excel at anything.
I don't think classes feed the "participation" trophy mindset, I think people like it as a measure of their progress. At our local matches we don't even bother with them though. Yeah you get hammered by the GM guys, but they also help us slow losers out quite a bit. I mean, we are there to have fun and shoot. We know who the big dogs are. ANd we give them total shit for it too!
Here was my intro to rifle shooting vs intro to handgun:
Handgun: "Bring your handgun--don't buy anything. Do you have/need a holster? Do you have enough mags?"
Rifle: "Get a 6 BRA Impact Action and 3 bags. Prepare to shoot multiple barrels per season."
Notice a difference? That's a problem.
Here was my intro to rifle shooting vs intro to handgun:
Handgun: "Bring your handgun--don't buy anything. Do you have/need a holster? Do you have enough mags?"
Rifle: "Get a 6 BRA Impact Action and 3 bags. Prepare to shoot multiple barrels per season."
Notice a difference? That's a problem.
The problem is you have to learn who to listen to and that is hard on forums sometimes. The people giving that advice to a new rifle match shooter have probably been shooting the sport a couple years and trying to work their way up the ladder in the sport and repeat what they were told by similar people when they started. I would never tell a new shooter to do that as it's BS advice. Actually gave one some advice today on Facebook and there were plenty of those other answers also. Nothing wrong with the those guys doing what they want but the advice sucks for a new shooter.
It was an in-person 'intro to PRS class' sponsored by our local club
.Was also told I needed to know dope out to 1000 yards despite having 0 access to a 1000 yard range.
Local sample of 1. But compared to the other shooting sports its was a steep battle to get into PRS. Too bad to don't listen and am stubborn as F
Compare that to our local USPSA group who will literally shout down anyone giving that kinda of stupid advice and throw needed equipment at new shooters like holsters/mags/etc... Its a universal mantra DONT BUY NEW GEAR COME AND SHOOT WITH US FIRST.
If you are seeing it as well, it says there is a problem with PRS entry.
It was an in-person 'intro to PRS class' sponsored by our local club
Was also told I needed to know dope out to 1000 yards despite having 0 access to a 1000 yard range.
Local sample of 1. But compared to the other shooting sports its was a steep battle to get into PRS. Too bad to don't listen and am stubborn as F
Compare that to our local USPSA group who will literally shout down anyone giving that kinda of stupid advice and throw needed equipment at new shooters like holsters/mags/etc... Its a universal mantra DONT BUY NEW GEAR COME AND SHOOT WITH US FIRST.
If you are seeing it as well, it says there is a problem with PRS entry.
If they said that at an intro class that is all sorts of wrong. You do need to know data but with the ballistic programs now that’s not a problem. Where I lived in CT I only had a 400 yard range so all my data was run off programs. It’s workable but the whole caliber and needs stuff is bad.
It’s not hard to get into shooting these matches. Have a rifle, scope, ammo and run some data and you can go shoot. People get all worried when they see these guys who give bad info to beginners. Could happen in USPSA too if you look on sites and see people saying you need an STI and all these expensive mags and belt rigs when you can take your Glock out and have fun. I try and do what I can when I see the other advice but it is what it is.
everyone i've ever talked to about their first match gets told bring a rifle with a MV and an app. dont worry about the restof the gear. if needed we even chrono them day ofIt was an in-person 'intro to PRS class' sponsored by our local club
Was also told I needed to know dope out to 1000 yards despite having 0 access to a 1000 yard range.
Local sample of 1. But compared to the other shooting sports its was a steep battle to get into PRS. Too bad to don't listen and am stubborn as F
Compare that to our local USPSA group who will literally shout down anyone giving that kinda of stupid advice and throw needed equipment at new shooters like holsters/mags/etc... Its a universal mantra DONT BUY NEW GEAR COME AND SHOOT WITH US FIRST.
If you are seeing it as well, it says there is a problem with PRS entry.
if your matches are different the problem isnt with PRS its the range/MD
This is the wrong application- The 10lbs/16lbs and open /pro (and only open pro as a season final), are not about the top shooters. The top shooters will always win, but it does take away the incentive for some of them to shoot the less competitive production or tac divisions as several do today. Your NRL Hunter is a poor example as the emphasis on speed between shots is not the same, the game is different, just as our Team UKD is a different beast.
This allows people to enter the sport with lower-cost gear, shooting against others with similar gear without an arms race. It keeps the silly "production/pro" manipulation of the production class, which is a complete cluster, under control. It promotes those wanting to have sponsors to move up to the open/pro division as at the end of the year that's what will have all eyeballs.
The NRL Hunter with their power factor and weight are doing something right, but the PRS/NRL regular matches can do more to both maintain the game they have and encourage an easier path by reducing the barrier to entry.
This is all BS anyway, PRS is Shannon's game and until he wants to listen, nothing said here is worth the words written.
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PRS will continue to be a clusterfuck for as long as people in it insist on differentiating between "sponsored/pro" shooters (what a bullshit label anyway) and "amateurs"
ETA: add prize tables to the above list.
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When i took my Intro to Precision rifle class at K &M they helped you set a good zero, chrono'd 10 shots, then helped you get dope out to 1200 yards while correcting your bad habits. Then they went forward with the rest of the class such as positional and movers.
That's good they have that range. Not everywhere does. Also different conditions will change that data but good to have a baseline.
no youre right, but they showed you how to use your app and true your data with real world dope so that you could go elsewhere and correct as you needed, it was a good class learned alot.
I've been trying to shoot in matches since late 2019. Thus far i've only shot a single match (non-PRS), the biggest challenge for me has been to find a slot open in regional PRS matches. Always sold out. A central registration website for all PRS matches would defiantly help. Practiscore is ok, but it often links to other registration sites. Each match has their own signup process, and it's difficult to keep up and monitor them all. It seems like the stars have to align with checking the various websites at the right time, when the registration window is open, and before it's full. That's in addition to the normal troubles of finding components, arranging travel, work schedules, etc. From a new guy prospective, it sure takes a lot of effort and luck just to participate in this game.
Unfortunately facebook seems to be the best place to keep up to date on regional matches and various shooting events in my area. Otherwise its Practiscore.
Setting a reminder on my phone has helped me with this. Yeah it sucks you have to drop what you are doing and take 3 minutes to sign up. If it’s something really want to do then you have to stay ahead of the crowd
It takes about 1 minute to set up a free Practiscore account. Its not rocket science
There is a page with all the regional matches on their site.
Precision Rifle Series - Central Region
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.
www.precisionrifleseries.com
And it's up to you to know when the matches are and register in a timely manner. Matches don't fill near as fast as they used to. Used to be minutes they were full. Now you usually have a few weeks.
I have a free practiscore account. I've found that it is rocket science. The centerfire matches in my area often link to other websites for registration, some link to Facebook. It's not as simple as logging in on practiscore and signing up. I've seen some that are that way, but always full.
The firearms community and tech aren't connected at the hip, that is for sure. Picking a hosting site for most of this stuff that supported the constitution and not supporting the big tech overlords when we could avoid it would be a good start. I have found the old guys slow to change, and I count myself among them.
If you follow the clubs you are interested in shooting, its not that hard.
Very true. It’s pretty easy to do. Maybe they should make it a timed stage at a match and maybe people will learn how to do it. Lol
When we decided to start having precision rifle matches at our range, we struggled with whether or not to try to get them affiliated with one of the national series/leagues. The main pro for us was the perception that it would bring more shooters.
We decided to just keep it low key, low pressure. Not to say the stages were easy, some of them were pretty challenging. We had a modest prize table for our first match, with some national level sponsors, but most sponsors were local.
We told ourselves we'd be happy if 30 or so shooters showed. We ended up having 73 total. We're on track to hit more than a hundred for this upcoming match. The feedback that we got from the first one was overwhelmingly positive. Dudes had a good time. We had some of the national level competitors there, and they seemed to really enjoy not having to worry about their points.
I think we'll probably stay unaffiliated long term. I've never been a MD for an affiliated match, but I'm positive that it has to add a level of complexity that I just don't think we want to deal with.
Just my two cents.
We decided to just keep it low key, low pressure. Not to say the stages were easy, some of them were pretty challenging. We had a modest prize table for our first match, with some national level sponsors, but most sponsors were local.
We told ourselves we'd be happy if 30 or so shooters showed. We ended up having 73 total. We're on track to hit more than a hundred for this upcoming match. The feedback that we got from the first one was overwhelmingly positive. Dudes had a good time. We had some of the national level competitors there, and they seemed to really enjoy not having to worry about their points.
I think we'll probably stay unaffiliated long term. I've never been a MD for an affiliated match, but I'm positive that it has to add a level of complexity that I just don't think we want to deal with.
Just my two cents.
That's a stage ill never see because I can't get into a match. I know for sure im not the only one having trouble finding and/or getting into a regional match. You guys seem to be in the know. I'm like that with golf, I know where every game in town is every week. Others have no idea. It's breaking into that cycle that's the hard part. For example, you guys probably know that match x is coming up in month y so you make a point to start looking for registration to come open and you know where to look. If you forget, your shooting buddy sends you a text to remind you or ask if you are going this year. Folks like me have no idea, it's a guessing game and we don't know anyone.
It's unfair for you guys to treat folks like me like we are stupid just because it don't come as easy for us. Once I find a way to get into a few matches and im sure id feel the same way. Just know that as an outsider, it's not easy. Post asked for feedback, that's mine.
Nobody is saying you’re stupid. Taking a little bit of time and go on the PRS website, find the matches in your area and see when they open up. Also, look at the shooting ranges in your area and see when and what type of matches they hold.
Once you have all that information, find out how they register shooters. From there, its up to you to keep track of the rest.
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No one said you are stupid but you are just way over thinking it. Click on the link I posted above, click the region you are in and it lists all the matches. In the match link it gives you contact info and sometimes registration info so you can contact the MD if there isn't any registration info. Sometimes it's not there because registration is not open yet. Put reminders in your phone to check them if you need to.
You are in TN so you are southeast region. Here are your matches.
Precision Rifle Series - Southeast Region
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.
www.precisionrifleseries.com
Alright, really preciate the help. I've been doing the process you described for a long time, except contacting MDs directly. I guess I just assumed they wouldn't be responsive, glad to hear that's not the case. I'll stay at it. I've got some other guys having the same trouble, ill be sure to pass this along to them as well. Thanks again.No one said you are stupid but you are just way over thinking it. Click on the link I posted above, click the region you are in and it lists all the matches. In the match link it gives you contact info and sometimes registration info so you can contact the MD if there isn't any registration info. Sometimes it's not there because registration is not open yet. Put reminders in your phone to check them if you need to.
You are in TN so you are southeast region. Here are your matches.
Precision Rifle Series - Southeast Region
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.www.precisionrifleseries.com
I feel it would all be more sustainable if the LR. Precision Rifle Comp. community did more to Insintivise, promote and Reward more for realistic, practical, common and less forgiving shooting platforms, calibers, equipment etc….. A lot Less for overly common, expensive/heavy and forgiving platforms that are unpractical for most anything other than Benchrest and positional/supported benchrest/PRS/NRL etc….. Reward and support caliber power factors, lower shot counts/shot impacts and less use of other shooters information/data sharing on/between stages… NRL hunter is a step in the right direction but in need for some fine tuning to truly bring more people into a practical competive scene…. Bring back more training/marksmanship skills into the comps and less of the Gaming… FYI I have, use and train with all of this equipment and am consitently going backwards with the idea less is becoming more in many ways…. The elites sniffle at me but the common folk love me….
I agree with you, but what do you consider gaming? If a hunter uses the equipment he carries in the field to make a successful shot, and it's used in a new way that's unorthodox to others, is that gaming?
Also, as far as rifle weight, I think that's all relative. For example, a 100-lb young girl may think a 12-lb rifle is heavy, especially if she's out of shape, and has to hump it a long distance. A 220-lb man who is 6-2 and in great shape may think a 16-lb rifle is light. I'm of average size and weight, but in really good shape. I live at 8000-ft, and routinely hike, snowshoe, snowmobile, at high elevations. My legs and lungs are still strong and young, and humping a 16+ lb rifle through the woods is no big deal for me as I do it often.
Also, as far as rifle weight, I think that's all relative. For example, a 100-lb young girl may think a 12-lb rifle is heavy, especially if she's out of shape, and has to hump it a long distance. A 220-lb man who is 6-2 and in great shape may think a 16-lb rifle is light. I'm of average size and weight, but in really good shape. I live at 8000-ft, and routinely hike, snowshoe, snowmobile, at high elevations. My legs and lungs are still strong and young, and humping a 16+ lb rifle through the woods is no big deal for me as I do it often.
Lots of good discussion. I recently got into PRS 22rm shooting (early 2021). My reason, Ammo is cheaper than the rest, I can compete, I get to learn to shoot comps, learn dope and scope use, shoot at distance. And just have fun. We have a huge group of shooters at our club. We have a couple sponsored shooters. But they help everyone out. Offer advice on different ways to shoot stages. But they practice a lot and are fast. I’m just looking to improve and get better and faster. But the first thing I had to do was get my dope and gun dialed in. Anyone who doesn’t, will be discouraged real quick and feel it’s just wasting ammo. I told myself to get the dope figured out before running another comp. Finally did. But my first two comps, were rough. Anything out past 100 yds was a crap shoot. The Free ballistic apps I tried were useless. Finally bought a Kestrel and all is right in the world. Rifle is dialed in now. It was all a process and I’ve learned a lot to finally feel I can compete and misses will be on me and not the set up.
JBM works pretty well for data. I have never actually sat at the range and got data for my .22 but have used JBM and have won matches with it. Put in good data and it's pretty close.
JBM Never used it but just checked out their site. Lots of good info to enter. Some guys like and use strelok pro. I Know the kestrels are pricey but I’m glad I got it. It has additional features on it that are nice.
I use the Simplified version. All the inputs you need and nothing you don't. LOL
jbmballistics.com
JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Simplified)
jbmballistics.com
Less statist fudd shit.
Like not allowing a “brace” and requiring gun registration to make it a “SBR”. That’s fudd boot licker stuff.
Like not allowing a “brace” and requiring gun registration to make it a “SBR”. That’s fudd boot licker stuff.
???
What in The Hell are you on about?
I use the Simplified version. All the inputs you need and nothing you don't. LOL
JBM - Calculations - Trajectory (Simplified)
First time shooting an ELR 22LR match, I used JBM with the simplified version. I won the match and set a course record. Obviously everything fell into place for me that day.
Now that I've read all 349 posts...
It seems like the overarching consensus for improvement in summary are:
Better processes - more simplified and consistent rules for function designed to be shooter friendly. Club matches being designed with a emphasis on new shooters (less stages/rounds with a emphasis on mentorship), regional/national matches are a test of skill but you compete directly against your peers for a chance for a class win based on skill level.
Changing the definition of production to mean actually factory produced rifles to be inviting to new shooters (excluding Firearms assembled from custom parts) and removing the price limits. If you want a Christensens get one, if you want to shoot a Ruger RPR shoot it, if you have Dad's Remington 700 sps-dm shoot that too, and if you're balling and you like AI's then rock out. Production should mean Production, not "semi-custom" included.
Change the scoring standards to a points per hit plus time bonus standard as noted by @lowlight from 3GN practices. Par times of 2-3 minutes seems solid with a max time of 4-5 minutes. Rewards faster proficient shooters without penalizing new shooters. (Consideration for time penalties for misses under this as well)
For skills consistency and prize tables establish a formal classification system to stratisfy skills. Also allows for rewarding all skill levels and a true building up of the sport. (Time and Hit Percentage Ratio as a graded system, perhaps)
Stages designed with effort, variation and creativity to be new shooter friendly and still be a challenge for top level shooters. Frank has mentioned a good way to do this is to design stages that have a big target(s) (2-3 moa) and a small target(s) (1-1.5 moa) incorporated into each stage design. Rather than having different course of fire in a match for different skill levels. Additionally as with all other action sports bring back more movement. This tests the shooters ability under stress and time, but it balances practical rifle builds versus gamer rifle builds. Another item, is bringing back traditional aspects of marksmanship, to include seated and kneeling unsupported.
This all makes sense and brings inline what has made all the other shooting sports successful.
It seems like the overarching consensus for improvement in summary are:
Better processes - more simplified and consistent rules for function designed to be shooter friendly. Club matches being designed with a emphasis on new shooters (less stages/rounds with a emphasis on mentorship), regional/national matches are a test of skill but you compete directly against your peers for a chance for a class win based on skill level.
Changing the definition of production to mean actually factory produced rifles to be inviting to new shooters (excluding Firearms assembled from custom parts) and removing the price limits. If you want a Christensens get one, if you want to shoot a Ruger RPR shoot it, if you have Dad's Remington 700 sps-dm shoot that too, and if you're balling and you like AI's then rock out. Production should mean Production, not "semi-custom" included.
Change the scoring standards to a points per hit plus time bonus standard as noted by @lowlight from 3GN practices. Par times of 2-3 minutes seems solid with a max time of 4-5 minutes. Rewards faster proficient shooters without penalizing new shooters. (Consideration for time penalties for misses under this as well)
For skills consistency and prize tables establish a formal classification system to stratisfy skills. Also allows for rewarding all skill levels and a true building up of the sport. (Time and Hit Percentage Ratio as a graded system, perhaps)
Stages designed with effort, variation and creativity to be new shooter friendly and still be a challenge for top level shooters. Frank has mentioned a good way to do this is to design stages that have a big target(s) (2-3 moa) and a small target(s) (1-1.5 moa) incorporated into each stage design. Rather than having different course of fire in a match for different skill levels. Additionally as with all other action sports bring back more movement. This tests the shooters ability under stress and time, but it balances practical rifle builds versus gamer rifle builds. Another item, is bringing back traditional aspects of marksmanship, to include seated and kneeling unsupported.
This all makes sense and brings inline what has made all the other shooting sports successful.
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