Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?

[lte82]

Every year, in this small town, there are a record number of ASA shooters that roll into town to compete. I think there was something like 2,000 shooters last year, and there will be that many or more here in about a month when the shoot takes place again. It's been this way for the past 10 years and it gets bigger every single year and it continues to grow.

You can't compare archery with PRS. You can literally hold matches indoors, in downtown Las Vegas, with hundreds / thousands of spectators that walk from their hotel, and can spend the day doing other things during the evenings besides shooting. Matches take MINUTES, not 8-10 hours / day. PRS matches are usually held out in the middle of nowhere due to the range and safety requirements, where there is nothing else to do. It's not spectator friendly. The matches are generally limited to < 200 shooters, not because more people don't want to shoot, but because you literally can't put more people on the range and still finish the match. I feel like the people comparing PRS to pro sports or sports that are super spectator friendly have never been to one or know how they even work.

 

[Lowlight]

You can't compare archery with PRS. You can literally hold matches indoors, in downtown Las Vegas, with hundreds / thousands of spectators that walk from their hotel, and can spend the day doing other things during the evenings besides shooting. Matches take MINUTES, not 8-10 hours / day. PRS matches are usually held out in the middle of nowhere due to the range and safety requirements, where there is nothing else to do. It's not spectator friendly. The matches are generally limited to < 200 shooters, not because more people don't want to shoot, but because you literally can't put more people on the range and still finish the match. I feel like the people comparing PRS to pro sports or sports that are super spectator friendly have never been to one or know how they even work.

You absolutely can... this is 100% the problem, people, like you ...

It's NOT THE COF it's the processes in places we are talking about

How fucking thick do you have to be to not understand this ... every sport is fan-friendly, I saw competitive Air Rifle on NBC Sports, shooting toys from 10 yards.

People are talking about the process, the fairness, the officiating dumbass get out of the FUCKING WAY you are blocking progress to support a dying system

 

[Lowlight]

People want repeatability, people want fairness, people want a system they can rely on ... none of that exists

You have a price tag on the production class, that is your minimum cost to entry, stupid

Sure you have a mix of people talking about the bullshit contrived stages, but people are complaining about the lack of governance which is why they are looking to other sports...

Governance, Rules, Officiating is what makes something A SPORT ... D'uh

Why there is no interest in making this a Sport is simple, the leaders don't want to give up their control. Everything that makes this a Sport will make them irrelevant to it. You can't manipulate the situation if you have to follow rules. In order to call it a Fan Friendly sport, you have to give the fans a process to follow assholes.

The very point you tried making, the Remoteness of the events is why it's absolutely fan-friendly... you just can't make it a contrived bullshit event. People will tune in to see what doesn't happen in their backyard. If I can walk out the door and see it, no big deal, but to hear about a cool deal, find it online or on TV, yes I am watching.

It's the fact it was never scaled, it was never designed to be a proper sport because it was always designed to feed the Chosin few vs ...

Nascar is fan-friendly, or was it at the beginning? watch a car from a mile away go in circles, never seeing what the driver is doing, sure sign me up...

You have no imagination and just want to make excuses because you are playing the game we are laughing at ... please spare us your insight.

 

[gasrat]

You can't compare archery with PRS. You can literally hold matches indoors, in downtown Las Vegas, with hundreds / thousands of spectators that walk from their hotel, and can spend the day doing other things during the evenings besides shooting. Matches take MINUTES, not 8-10 hours / day. PRS matches are usually held out in the middle of nowhere due to the range and safety requirements, where there is nothing else to do. It's not spectator friendly. The matches are generally limited to < 200 shooters, not because more people don't want to shoot, but because you literally can't put more people on the range and still finish the match. I feel like the people comparing PRS to pro sports or sports that are super spectator friendly have never been to one or know how they even work.

I was using archery as an example of structure and uniformity, nothing more. Every shooter in every class from Pro to Novice is on a level playing field, and the person whose at the top of the leader board when it is all said and done is the person who shot the best match that particular day. It wasn't the guy who was better at utilizing all the gadgets he was allowed to use during the match, because every shooter has to adhere to a strict equipment rule in every class. Anyone caught deviating from those rules will be pulled from their squad and sent packing. And that applies to any match held anywhere in the country that is sanctioned by ASA. When is the last time you saw a chrono pulled out at a PRS match? I personally have seen shooters pulled from squads during ASA events and required to shoot their bow through a chrono to check speeds. I've also seen guys sent home because their arrow was over the allowed fps limit. Drove 8 hours to get here....tough shit. Your breaking the rules, so you can drive 8 hours back home because you got DQ.

Apparently you have never been to an ASA event or any type of competitive outdoor archery event or you would have known a ASA event takes all damn day to complete. I'm not talking about Vegas Style shoots in a race to 300, which, yeah, take very little time. But even if I was, the same rules apply to each and every shooter. Yeah, they have a choice on which release they wanna use, either BT, Hinge, Thumb or Wrist. But their overall bow set up has to adhere to set guidelines and other than the release, and maybe sights, their speed, stabilizer length and other parameters have to be within the rules. The best shooter is who wins on that particular day. The ASA archery event here in Kentucky is actually a two day event for the pro shooters. Even the novice shooters will shoot two days or at least two different times during the day. So no, it's not completed in minutes.

I don't have a issue with shooters shooting whatever caliber they want. Using whatever scope they want. Hell, I don't have a problem with shooters using gamer products in a match. But you can't call it a level playing field when one match allows a shooter to use multiple shooting aids every stage while another range allows them to use nothing more than a bag and bipod when all the scores at the end of the day go into the same rankings. I'm of the latter crowd. I think it rankings should be based on shooting ability versus gaming ability.

Someone mentioned to get more people out, the sport has to be affordable. That would probably get more people out. But at the same time, competitive archery rigs cost thousands of thousands of dollars. To me, competitive archery isn't very much cheaper than competitive rifle shooting. But it's not the cost, it's how the matches are structured and the overall leadership, educational value etc. that goes along with the it.

 

[Lowlight]

Grow the Sport is a punchline

It's trusting the science ...

they have no interest in growing the sport ... that's just a catch-all line to shut people up or to make the repeater sound like he cares about the other guys

You have a group of hyper-competitive people who will sell out their Mom(s) to win, and they talk about adding competition, ya right, LOL They race to the prize tables to grab that piece of kit they can absolutely afford or probably get at a discount, yet they want more competition, by growing the sport, which has really only grown by accident

 

[gasrat]

I'll use another example. The person that told me this is a friend and was at the match. Not gonna say where the match was or who was running it, but it was a larger scale match. One squad of shooters whose names you won't see at the main top of lists shoots their stage in a downpour. I mean flat out frog strangler. They accept their points after completing the stage and move on to the next stage. Next squad rolls up that contains some well known shooters in the sport. From what I was told, and I do not know why the person would need to lie about it. The squad with some household name shooters in it were allowed to wait out the storm, THEN, they shot their stage. There is no way in hell that would happen at an ASA Archery event. If weather conditions become so bad that the match can't continue, all shooters are pulled from the range until the weather passes. That is the difference I'm talking about.

Yes, there are shooters that get talked about a lot in ASA because they are the top shooters in the world. But the flip side of that coin is, when they step foot onto a ASA range, they receive no special treatment whatsoever. They win matches or place on the board because they shot the best. Not because they are allowed to wait out a storm while other, less known shooters have to shoot while it's pouring.

 

[lte82]

You absolutely can... this is 100% the problem, people, like you ...

It's NOT THE COF it's the processes in places we are talking about

How fucking thick do you have to be to not understand this ... every sport is fan-friendly, I saw competitive Air Rifle on NBC Sports, shooting toys from 10 yards.

People are talking about the process, the fairness, the officiating dumbass get out of the FUCKING WAY you are blocking progress to support a dying system

I've shot competitively for 25+ years. Air rifle, small bore, service rifle, high power, f class, prs, nrl. Set national records, won trophies, etc. I've brought *many* people to the rifle sports, and trust me I want them all to grow. I can 100% guarantee I've attended more matches, shot more matches, won more matches, and have set more records than you, and I'm probably a decade younger. Which game am I playing that "we" are laughing at?

 

[lte82]

I was using archery as an example of structure and uniformity, nothing more. Every shooter in every class from Pro to Novice is on a level playing field, and the person whose at the top of the leader board when it is all said and done is the person who shot the best match that particular day. It wasn't the guy who was better at utilizing all the gadgets he was allowed to use during the match, because every shooter has to adhere to a strict equipment rule in every class. Anyone caught deviating from those rules will be pulled from their squad and sent packing. And that applies to any match held anywhere in the country that is sanctioned by ASA. When is the last time you saw a chrono pulled out at a PRS match? I personally have seen shooters pulled from squads during ASA events and required to shoot their bow through a chrono to check speeds. I've also seen guys sent home because their arrow was over the allowed fps limit. Drove 8 hours to get here....tough shit. Your breaking the rules, so you can drive 8 hours back home because you got DQ.

Apparently you have never been to an ASA event or any type of competitive outdoor archery event or you would have known a ASA event takes all damn day to complete. I'm not talking about Vegas Style shoots in a race to 300, which, yeah, take very little time. But even if I was, the same rules apply to each and every shooter. Yeah, they have a choice on which release they wanna use, either BT, Hinge, Thumb or Wrist. But their overall bow set up has to adhere to set guidelines and other than the release, and maybe sights, their speed, stabilizer length and other parameters have to be within the rules. The best shooter is who wins on that particular day. The ASA archery event here in Kentucky is actually a two day event for the pro shooters. Even the novice shooters will shoot two days or at least two different times during the day. So no, it's not completed in minutes.

I don't have a issue with shooters shooting whatever caliber they want. Using whatever scope they want. Hell, I don't have a problem with shooters using gamer products in a match. But you can't call it a level playing field when one match allows a shooter to use multiple shooting aids every stage while another range allows them to use nothing more than a bag and bipod when all the scores at the end of the day go into the same rankings. I'm of the latter crowd. I think it rankings should be based on shooting ability versus gaming ability.

Someone mentioned to get more people out, the sport has to be affordable. That would probably get more people out. But at the same time, competitive archery rigs cost thousands of thousands of dollars. To me, competitive archery isn't very much cheaper than competitive rifle shooting. But it's not the cost, it's how the matches are structured and the overall leadership, educational value etc. that goes along with the it.

I've never competed in archery, but it sure as hell sounds like fun. It's something I'm actually looking to get into just to change it up. I've just been in the rifle world for a LONG time, and I just haven't seen any sport or regulatory body or league be able to do what archery has done. Not saying it *cant* be done, but logistically it seems difficult. Again, I hope someone proves me wrong! I'm all for it if it can happen.

 

[gasrat]

I've never competed in archery, but it sure as hell sounds like fun. It's something I'm actually looking to get into just to change it up. I've just been in the rifle world for a LONG time, and I just haven't seen any sport or regulatory body or league be able to do what archery has done. Not saying it *cant* be done, but logistically it seems difficult. Again, I hope someone proves me wrong! I'm all for it if it can happen.

Archery is a great sport. Not just for adults, but for all ages. From senior class all the way down to Jr. Eagle. Kids make bonds and friendships that last a lifetime. And like competition rifle shooting, you do not have to be an athletic person to take up the sport. Archery has opened up a lot of door for kids who otherwise wouldn't have done anything. They weren't athletic enough, or had the build to play sports like basketball, football or many others. But archery has allowed them to make names for themselves and do something that makes them hold their heads up.

And it's structured and uniform all across the board. ASA has different rules than say, IBO, but they both adhere to their structured design. As impressive as some centerfire shooters are, you would be amazed at how skilled the world's top 3D archers are. There are guys out there that can look at a target, not knowing the exact distance of it, and they can put a arrow shaft in a circle the size of a quarter more times than not when they have to. And the other nice thing about it is you can walk up to them like any other person and talk to them like it's nothing. They will stop and sign kids autographs, take photos with them right in the middle of a match.

 

[lte82]

Archery is a great sport. Not just for adults, but for all ages. From senior class all the way down to Jr. Eagle. Kids make bonds and friendships that last a lifetime. And like competition rifle shooting, you do not have to be an athletic person to take up the sport. Archery has opened up a lot of door for kids who otherwise wouldn't have done anything. They weren't athletic enough, or had the build to play sports like basketball, football or many others. But archery has allowed them to make names for themselves and do something that makes them hold their heads up.

And it's structured and uniform all across the board. ASA has different rules than say, IBO, but they both adhere to their structured design. As impressive as some centerfire shooters are, you would be amazed at how skilled the world's top 3D archers are. There are guys out there that can look at a target, not knowing the exact distance of it, and they can put a arrow shaft in a circle the size of a quarter more times than not when they have to. And the other nice thing about it is you can walk up to them like any other person and talk to them like it's nothing. They will stop and sign kids autographs, take photos with them right in the middle of a match.

Yea archery seems almost like an art form, and I can see why it's grown so much. It's cool to see people succeed, both as a sport and individually like that. I'm just hoping one of my kids is left handed so I can share all of my equipment LOL. Otherwise it's going to get expensive getting them their own right handed guns and bows!

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

As a novice, The only thing I take issue with is "timing out" as I feel this is discouraging and robs novice shooters of valuable experience.

Why isnt PRS scored on time? Similar to other shooting sports. Fastest and most accurate is the top shooter.

Maybe the scoring system needs to evolve. Scoring has a lot to do with how a game is played.

 

[Lowlight]

I've shot competitively for 25+ years. Air rifle, small bore, service rifle, high power, f class, prs, nrl. Set national records, won trophies, etc. I've brought *many* people to the rifle sports, and trust me I want them all to grow. I can 100% guarantee I've attended more matches, shot more matches, won more matches, and have set more records than you, and I'm probably a decade younger. Which game am I playing that "we" are laughing at?

The greatest shooter nobody ever heard of, anytime you want to compare “numbers” let me know ?

I did more for this sport than most and here you are in the way

all that experience and still clueless amazing

 

[THEIS]

I've shot competitively for 25+ years. Air rifle, small bore, service rifle, high power, f class, prs, nrl. Set national records, won trophies, etc. I've brought *many* people to the rifle sports, and trust me I want them all to grow. I can 100% guarantee I've attended more matches, shot more matches, won more matches, and have set more records than you, and I'm probably a decade younger. Which game am I playing that "we" are laughing at?

Hi,

What is the name of your precision rifle forum?
What is the growth rate of your forum?
Can you send me over your media/sponsorship package details highlighting your forum/social media audiences?

The irony of you talking shit about who has done what, yet YOU are on HIS forum; lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Lowlight]

RIght,

When I read about "participants" who have done so much by participating in things others have created I have to laugh

It's like saying, I own a sports car, with this being your first experience with one:

Yep, he owns it, so he can say anything he likes about Ferrari, just don't ask him for driving advice.

More to building, creating, growing than just participating or being a warm body ... I show up at local matches too, stroll in, shoot my stages and go home, usually early, so yep, participating...

Do we need to talk about the Precision Rifle Courses & Students too or just competitions & competitors... I have influenced a lot of students and those students have stood up recurring events, so, proxy wars?

But let's not pretend the SHC isn't the longest consecutive match of this type that is still happening and has been longer than any other single event out there of this style. You can say Rifles Only has the longest-running events but they have changed names over the years. Or that the popularity wasn't built on here... hell the basic idea happened in our chatbox

I have a playground and you played a game on it ... cool story bro

 

[lte82]

Hi,

What is the name of your precision rifle forum?
What is the growth rate of your forum?
Can you send me over your media/sponsorship package details highlighting your forum/social media audiences?

The irony of you talking shit about who has done what, yet YOU are on HIS forum; lolol

Sincerely,
Theis

I'm not talking shit. I'm simply stating that my perspective is coming from 20+ years of shooting rifles competitively over multiple decades, for many organizations, I'm not just randomly coming up with this. I'm not in the "industry" and don't want to be. I enjoy this as a hobby, nothing more. I am not about to compare a forum to my business, or my business to yours, or to the guy that finances your business in whatever pharmaceutical world he lives in. I enjoy where I'm at in life, and I'm glad Frank is happy and you're happy and we're all happy.

 

[lte82]

The greatest shooter nobody ever heard of, anytime you want to compare “numbers” let me know ?

I did more for this sport than most and here you are in the way

all that experience and still clueless amazing

I don't disagree. I'm just a competitor, not in the industry, and don't want to be. I'm 100% down for being a part of something new and with new management and direction. Build it and I'd sign up. I'll put my money where my mouth is and say that whenever the first match is, I'll be there.

 

[Lowlight]

You're in the way...

Clearly, you have no clue how to "build" something ... you are simply playing the game others built for you, the fact you are happy with it means you are ignorant to the realities of what people are talking about

Point in case, every post you are telling people to stop talking about this and simply enjoy it,

You honestly have no business talking because nothing you said in any reply has been Positive, Helpful, or even Insightful

You are completely talking shit because if you are were relaying your experience in a positive way we'd find it compelling or worth discussing beyond pointing out how stupid you sound


all you offer is disagreement

 

[GPtuners]

The thing with individuals who want to dabble, this sport has been marketing it all wrong. By the PRS including numbers to equipment rules, they stopped the average Joe from showing up. You basically telegraphed, this is the opposite of your buddies golf weekend.

Yeah, I signed up for a match even though when I looked at the rules, they made about as much sense as a soup sandwich.

• Why did the production class raised the cost to $2500 for the rifle and the optics in 2021? For someone new to this game, it sounds like it's the top tier class. I would think that $1500 would be a better number for the rifle and the optic. That would have your Ruger PR, Thompson, Savage, and even the Sig chassis rifles in there. For the optic, that at least gets you into the FFP range with some level of tracking.
• And why is it that a chassis puts you into Open? There are $500 chassis out there now. If I buy a Remington 700 for $500, and drop it into a KRG Bravo, I still only have a $1000 rifle. But suddenly I'm in the same class as a full custom? Maybe Production should get renamed to Budget and have a cap on the total cost of the equipment. Call it $4000 for rifle/optics/bipod/bags. Then new shooters would at least be able to come in with minimum of gear and there's a good change they would be competing against themselves.

So he travels to a match closer to him, only to find out that the match is ONLY allowing shooters to use a bipod and one bag on every stage.

I noticed that as well. I want to get out there because it looks like fun, but I was wondering how those rules worked out. I thought it was because that match might not actually be an official PRS match.

 

[Rob01]

Why? Follow who makes the new “production” rifles and who they are friends with.

 

[gasrat]

As a novice, The only thing I take issue with is "timing out" as I feel this is discouraging and robs novice shooters of valuable experience.

Why isnt PRS scored on time? Similar to other shooting sports. Fastest and most accurate is the top shooter.

Maybe the scoring system needs to evolve. Scoring has a lot to do with how a game is played.

I think the time issue is to get the matches over is to move things along. I may be wrong on that though.

The Archery structure is that Johnny Crack Limb doesn’t have to shoot against the likes of Levi Morgan or Nathan Brooks. He can if he wants to, but he doesn’t have to. There is a class for him that is more his level of competition.

In PRS, if you shoot open, your shooting against the top shooters. There is nowhere else in open for you to go. TAC, Production, Gas Gun. Again, your shooting against the top shooters.

Should there be more classes? I don’t know the answer to that, but registering for open class and getting skull dragged every match turns a lot of people away IMO. Just my two cents anyway.

 

[gasrat]

Yeah, I signed up for a match even though when I looked at the rules, they made about as much sense as a soup sandwich.

• Why did the production class raised the cost to $2500 for the rifle and the optics in 2021? For someone new to this game, it sounds like it's the top tier class. I would think that $1500 would be a better number for the rifle and the optic. That would have your Ruger PR, Thompson, Savage, and even the Sig chassis rifles in there. For the optic, that at least gets you into the FFP range with some level of tracking.
• And why is it that a chassis puts you into Open? There are $500 chassis out there now. If I buy a Remington 700 for $500, and drop it into a KRG Bravo, I still only have a $1000 rifle. But suddenly I'm in the same class as a full custom? Maybe Production should get renamed to Budget and have a cap on the total cost of the equipment. Call it $4000 for rifle/optics/bipod/bags. Then new shooters would at least be able to come in with minimum of gear and there's a good change they would be competing against themselves.

I noticed that as well. I want to get out there because it looks like fun, but I was wondering how those rules worked out. I thought it was because that match might not actually be an official PRS match.

No. The match I shoot that restricts you to a bag and bipod is a sanctioned PRS match. I enjoy the match and had rather shoot matches like that.

 

[Rob01]

The sport has always had time limits. Even before there was a “PRS”. The now more standard 90 seconds is a good average. Some used to be 30-60 seconds. The 90 seconds teaches to make hits count and not fire rounds fast. I had shot a match that gave you 3 min and it felt like an eternity.

 

[Rob01]

@GPtuners does that surprise you? Optics went up too.

 

[GPtuners]

@GPtuners does that surprise you? Optics went up too.

Yes, but I'm also coming from a background of ZERO precision rifle experience. I didn't know PRS existed until maybe a month ago. It came up when I was looking for local places to shoot long range. I couldn't find any that didn't have long waits for memberships, but some local matches came up (at private ranges I'd never seen before). So my first time shooting past 125 yds is going to be in a PRS match.

So yeah, I think that both of those should have went down to $1500, instead of up to $2500. But that's also someone from the outside looking in. (also someone that had to purchase ELDM ammo from various members a couple of boxes at a time to even be able to shoot this event.)

 

[Rob01]

Yes, but I'm also coming from a background of ZERO precision rifle experience. I didn't know PRS existed until maybe a month ago. It came up when I was looking for local places to shoot long range. I couldn't find any that didn't have long waits for memberships, but some local matches came up (at private ranges I'd never seen before). So my first time shooting past 125 yds is going to be in a PRS match.

So yeah, I think that both of those should have went down to $1500, instead of up to $2500. But that's also someone from the outside looking in. (also someone that had to purchase ELDM ammo from various members a couple of boxes at a time to even be able to shoot this event.)

Hey everyone has to start somewhere. Get a good chrono number and go shoot. You will learn what you need from that point on at the match.

I agree about costs especially for production, which is supposed to be about the "new shooters" to "grow the sport".

 

[brianf]

I've shot competitively for 25+ years. Air rifle, small bore, service rifle, high power, f class, prs, nrl. Set national records, won trophies, etc. I've brought *many* people to the rifle sports, and trust me I want them all to grow. I can 100% guarantee I've attended more matches, shot more matches, won more matches, and have set more records than you, and I'm probably a decade younger. Which game am I playing that "we" are laughing at?

i shoot like shit so im not one to talk, but are you able to post some of the accolades that you state above.
id personally love to see the records that were set, maybe even a few pics of targets, trophy room/wall.

im a sucker for tiny groups at distance, i think only "ELR Researcher" is worse than me lol


id bet that if your consistently in the "top ten" we know some of the same people.

I have a few acquaintances up the food chain in different disciplines, maybe we run in the same circles?

thanks

 

[Lowlight]

I am switching to Par Times

Every stage will be 5 Minutes, then the individual stage will have a Par Time, like 3 Minutes

Shooter A completes the Stage in 3:30, his score is what he shoots, X hits equals Y Points

Shooter B completes the Stage in 4:10 his score is X hits equals Y Points, Minus 1 Point for being a minute over Par

Shooter C completes the Stage in 1:58 , his score is X hits equals Y Points Plus 1 Point for being a Minute under Par

The full minute will either reward you or minus you, but you won't be stopped for 5 minutes

2022 the SHC is changing bigly

 

[Lowlight]

The WyCo crowd, with Collin, Phil, Pete, et al, are doing Classifications too for prizes and scoring

So percentage-based, yes everyone shoots together but at the end, you are broken into classifications. That will let you create Classification Tables to reward shooters,

A = 85%
B = 65%
C = 45%
So on


You can all shoot together but then be split up to your table, so B can have a top prize too you just hit your table. I can put a top prize on each table and split it up

Silly stuff like that

 

[lte82]

Edit.

 

[Lowlight]

It works for me, so stop making it uncomfortable

That is what I read, over and over again, that the complainers are non shooters or in this case non participants, my follow up would ask, are those complainers never players, disgruntled players, potentially futures players or all of the above ?

I tend to listen when someone tells you why they do or don’t do something. If the answer is, because I don’t like what I read on SH you might want to ask why do I keep treading this or maybe address it. Stating, I don’t see it because I’m just here to have fun, so I tune it out, might work well for you, but others feel it should be addressed. Why not let them,

when the finales have self created drama you’re Joe Biden, and that needs to be fixed not ignored like the MSM is doing, rewritten for taste should not be an option

 

[brianf]

That’s some great awards to have at home...good job

 

[lte82]

It works for me, so stop making it uncomfortable

That is what I read, over and over again, that the complainers are non shooters or in this case non participants, my follow up would ask, are those complainers never players, disgruntled players, potentially futures players or all of the above ?

I tend to listen when someone tells you why they do or don’t do something. If the answer is, because I don’t like what I read on SH you might want to ask why do I keep treading this or maybe address it. Stating, I don’t see it because I’m just here to have fun, so I tune it out, might work well for you, but others feel it should be addressed. Why not let them,

when the finales have self created drama you’re Joe Biden, and that needs to be fixed not ignored like the MSM is doing, rewritten for taste should not be an option

Youre right. Everyone should be heard. I like your mindset and approach and wanting to recreate something. You helped found this entire sport and I don’t think myself or anyone else would disagree with that and I think a lot of people respect you for that. It’s cool that you and others want to do v2.0 or 3.0 and make it something even better that’s more inclusive and not just about the “select few”. I’m a nobody, I’m not “one of the chosen”, and to be honest I never want to be. Your direction is not going to cut me out of anything, I’m just gonna be that dude that shows up and brings his friends, pays the money, has some drinks around the fire, and goes home with lessons learned and a good experience regardless of winning or not. I’m literally your target audience. I don’t have to hate PRS to want to shoot your match. I would shoot it because it sounds like a good time and would teach me something new. I just think the two worlds can coexist. I feel like being made to choose one or the other is the issue. Why can’t we enjoy both? I’m 100% in the “I want to see something new” camp but I don’t understand why we have to destroy the PRS organization in order to make that a reality. I’ll stop posting in this thread... for real this time.

 

[gasrat]

Youre right. Everyone should be heard. I like your mindset and approach and wanting to recreate something. You helped found this entire sport and I don’t think myself or anyone else would disagree with that and I think a lot of people respect you for that. It’s cool that you and others want to do v2.0 or 3.0 and make it something even better that’s more inclusive and not just about the “select few”. I’m a nobody, I’m not “one of the chosen”, and to be honest I never want to be. Your direction is not going to cut me out of anything, I’m just gonna be that dude that shows up and brings his friends, pays the money, has some drinks around the fire, and goes home with lessons learned and a good experience regardless of winning or not. I’m literally your target audience. I don’t have to hate PRS to want to shoot your match. I would shoot it because it sounds like a good time and would teach me something new. I just think the two worlds can coexist. I feel like being made to choose one or the other is the issue. Why can’t we enjoy both? I’m 100% in the “I want to see something new” camp but I don’t understand why we have to destroy the PRS organization in order to make that a reality. I’ll stop posting in this thread... for real this time.

I don’t think anyone is trying to destroy it. I just feel there is a lot of people that would like to see more uniformity across the board. Maybe I’m wrong in my way of thinking. I’ll shoot PRS locally. Won’t be getting a membership, but will shoot matches. If I travel, it will be for field type matches from here on out.

 

[Lowlight]

I had multiple conversation with George and Shannon I am not shut off to anything

it’s not destroy all monsters - it’s let them fight

we want to adjust things not cancel them, the cancel side is the PRS proper they enjoy the status quo - it brings in a ton of cash and is formulated to work with minimum effort - which is our problem

we are hunting for solutions vs hoping to keep the status quo - we are not looking at the money but the experience- hence the difference

money wise less is more

 

[GPtuners]

I haven't been here long enough to tune my sarcasm meter to your wavelength- are you really looking at par times, or is that an example of going way overboard?

Either way, I feel a SH course will be in my future... I'm going to need some hands on knowledge after getting crushed this upcoming event...

 

[brianf]

In 2016 I had started working for myself, but really just shooting a ton of high power and service rifle and working enough to pay the bills. Pulled the trigger over 15,000 times in about 9 months, went to Camp Perry for two weeks and set a couple national records and won a ton of trophies. That pic is just my 2016 stuff from nationals. Doesn’t include regionals, state, or any other years. I won my first (unfortunately only lol) two day national PRS match less than two years after shooting my first match, but have picked up a couple top five trophies sporadically. I think I’ve got a trophy or two from some bigger regional / club championship matches. PRS is not something I practice, I just shoot it for fun. I guess that’s why I don’t really see why it’s so bad, it’s just a hobby and I don’t take it seriously. It’s a good excuse to see my friends and do something other than mow the yard. I think that’s where most of us are at with it, except for “tHe ToP ShOoTeRs” that are trying to make a career out of it I guess.

I still don’t see how me “proving” any of this makes me more or less relevant, as frank said I’m really just a competitor and don’t know anything or care to make a new sport. I would definitely be on board with trying something new, a new format, a new league, a new management team... I don’t care about the politics, I just like sending rounds down range and having fun with people I like.

Forgot in my reply..

I wasnt asking for validation of skill set.

Was truthfully intrigued by your experience

 

[Lowlight]

I am doing par times

 

[Rocketboy]

You can't compare archery with PRS. You can literally hold matches indoors, in downtown Las Vegas, with hundreds / thousands of spectators that walk from their hotel, and can spend the day doing other things during the evenings besides shooting. Matches take MINUTES, not 8-10 hours / day. PRS matches are usually held out in the middle of nowhere due to the range and safety requirements, where there is nothing else to do. It's not spectator friendly. The matches are generally limited to < 200 shooters, not because more people don't want to shoot, but because you literally can't put more people on the range and still finish the match. I feel like the people comparing PRS to pro sports or sports that are super spectator friendly have never been to one or know how they even work.

Shot Vegas. Vegas is 3 days, 90 rounds and by the time you practice and warm up, and start, you are at close to 3 hours. Shoot a national ASA... It's an all day affair to shoot 20 arrows. Outdoors... By the time the shoot off happens it has been a crazy long day. Archery is like watching paint dry as far as spectating. And I was a registered Pro for NFAA. I shot a lot of Senior USA, shot ASA and other 3d. I loved watching, but my wife would read a book. That is where the NRL posting youtube videos will help the sport! That is where you get the interest. It would be awesome if they would live stream! Then it would be next level.

 

[Starbuck]

I am doing par times

We are going to implement par times at the new Colorado Rifle Club Long Range Rimfire Match.

The match is six stages of 25-30 rounds each. We learned at a similar match that 3:30 was a good par time. The best shooters would finish at around 3:00, the mid-pack shooters would finish at 3:30, and the novices at 4:00.

So at the CRC Match, competitors will get a par time of 3:30. Finish the stage in 3:00 = +1 point. Finish between 3:30 and 4:00 = -1 point. Everybody times out at 4:00.

Seems like a win all around: The best shooters must stay on their game to get six extra points for the match. The intermediate shooters can usually finish on par, but maybe on a few stages they finish early and get an extra point, and maybe on a few others they need extra time so they take a few penalty points. The novice competitors can take 4:00 to complete all the stages and not time out, but it will cost them a few points, and provide a training incentive to reduce their time on future stages.

 

[DFOOSKING]

Just for clarification....its -1 point or +1 point per impact or added/subtracted from total score?

Just trying to play along and a little confused.

 

[Starbuck]

Just for clarification....its -1 point or +1 point per impact or added/subtracted from total score?

Just trying to play along and a little confused.

Added or subtracted from score for the stage.

Stage = 30 shots. If you clean the stage in the par time you get 30 points. If you clean it :30 or more under par your score would be 31. If you take 3:30 -4:00 to clean the stage, then your score would be 29.

This is new to me, so if there is a better way I am open to it. But, I want to keep it simple.

 

[Takashi]

Par time and points bonus/penalty is neat. That's your lever to force or un-force an accuracy standard. Only problem I see is 3:31 is the same "par time" as 3:59. You could play with these on a per-stage basis, whether you want to stress accuracy or go fast....Nice possibility there.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

If you're talking about revolutionizing the sport you might consider the way points are scored and its influence on how the game is played.

Why not do a time based point system similar to 3 gun? "Time Plus Points” scoring, or "Total Time" Scoring.

Understanding Scoring

3 Gun matches are generally scored one of 2 different methods. "Time Plus Points” scoring, or "Total Time" Scoring. The majority of matches these days are using www.Practiscore.com to manage...

www.soco3gun.com

Instead of guy taking the whole par time, they would be competing for fastest and most accurate. If you make accuracy and speed the name of the game, matches will naturally get faster, gear will change to reach speed and mobilty without all kinds of arbitrary restrictions.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is the 3 Gun Scoring formula from the LR Version they did for a while

3GN Precision Series Scoring


Many of you have asked about this so here it is. Before we dive in, I want to thank everyone who gave their input and time to develop this, especially Sean Murphy. This system was revised countless times and because of everyone's hard work I am very proud of it. Rather than publish the officially written rules, let me explain it step by step.


Please share this around.


-Precision Plus Scoring-


Shooters obtain points in 2 ways using this system. Target points (Precision), and Time bonus (Plus). Before anyone freaks out about the time part... relax and read on.


Target Points-


Every Rifle Target is worth 10 points, so if a stage has 10 possible hits the stage is worth a maximum of 100 target points.


Pistol Targets are worth 4 points total, steel is 1 hit and paper requires 2.


Time Points-


Time points are obtained by completing the COF before the par time. The shooters remaining seconds are divided in half and that is their time bonus. Example- Par time is 2:00, shooter completes COF in 1:30. That is 30/2=15 time points.


Time Points Limiter-


There is a time points limiter that does not allow any shooter to ever receive more time bonus points then 25% of their target score. This is to eliminate the ability for the competitor to speed through a stage and obtain a larger number of time points while sacrificing accuracy. Example- The shooter hits only 4 targets (40 points) but completes the COF in 1:00 on a stage with a par time of 2:00. That would be 60/2=30 Time points, but because they only scored 40 Target points the max time bonus they can receive is 10 points. The shooters overall score would be 50 (40 Target / 10 Time)


Why add time? The answer is pretty simple. We need to reward shooters who obtain the same level of accuracy but are able to do it in fast than others. Rather then reducing par times as shooters get better (which only hurts new shooters) we redesigned a scoring system. By scoring accuracy much higher than time and limiting the max number of time bonus points we maintain that this is primarily about accuracy but also reward shooters for being efficient. This system will also make it almost impossible to have ties as we can round use several decimal places.


Some Examples-


Example 1-


Shooter hits 8 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 8 Targets = 80 Target Points, 120-90=30 Seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus


Total Score is 95.


Example 2-


Shooter hits 4 targets and completes the COF in 90 seconds on a 120 par time stage. 4 Targets = 40 Target Points, 120-90=30 seconds x.5 = 15 Time Bonus


Because of the Control clause the max the shooter can recieve on time bonus is 10 points (40x.25=10)


Total Score is 50.

 

[Takashi]

If you're talking about revolutionizing the sport you might consider the way points are scored and its influence on how the game is played.

Why not do a time based point system similar to 3 gun? "Time Plus Points” scoring, or "Total Time" Scoring.

Understanding Scoring

3 Gun matches are generally scored one of 2 different methods. "Time Plus Points” scoring, or "Total Time" Scoring. The majority of matches these days are using www.Practiscore.com to manage...

www.soco3gun.com

Instead of guy taking the whole par time, they would be competing for fastest and most accurate. If you make accuracy and speed the name of the game, matches will naturally get faster, gear will change to reach speed and mobilty without all kinds of arbitrary restrictions.

I think that's the right thing to keep in mind--incentivize or give points to the goals you want to achieve.

In that light @lowlight what are the "objectives" or what do you want to quantify with your newer competition format?
Reward accuracy rapidly is the points + time bonus system
How do you negate the tactical benchrest aspect? Having to move around more than a handful of steps seems like a decent step

 

[Lowlight]

Movement, both during the stages and before and after

Having to carry your stuff, as an example I spoke to Gunsite when I was there two weeks ago, stage one would be movement from the Upper Parking Lot to the competition area... about 1.5 Miles to and from the cars

You can carry anything you like but you have to carry it.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Im just thinking if everyone has 4 minutes to shoot and they can use whatever gear they want they will naturally try to use as much gear and take as much time as possible.

If you make time a factor it now incentivises to using the minimal amount of gear and in the least time as possible.

 

[Lowlight]

That is the balance

Giving better shooters an incentive to shoot faster while giving slower shooters the opportunity to learn

You give the bonus point for speed while subtracting those under par... but still letting them shoot.

The bigger issue to fix is running out of time vs being under par,

 

[Rocketboy]

Shot an NRL 22 this weekend. It was nice the speed of 22 vs the speed of a centerfire. Only took about 2 hours to shoot 8 stages.

 

[jhunter]

Shot an NRL 22 this weekend. It was nice the speed of 22 vs the speed of a centerfire. Only took about 2 hours to shoot 8 stages.

How many shooters? I have seen some shit shows when over 120 shooters show up. 60-70 shooters and usually everything runs smoothly