Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?

[Ensemble]

Andrevius thank you for the summary. You're a better man than me, I wasn't about to read through 300+ posts. I think I'm one of the common shooters you guys are trying to attract. I'm not a shooter by trade and am a newbie to the sport and shooting in general. In fact I bought my first rifle right here on sniper's hide a year ago. I'd like to share my experience of my first match with you guys so you can see it from my perspective.

I finished my first competition about a month or two ago. An NRL 2 day hunter competition. I jumped in the deep end for sure. NRL had the option of doing skills division, but of course I wanted to compete and see how I'd do against all the veterans. Didn't plan to win anything, just wanted to try and not zero any stages. I felt that was a pretty reasonable goal for me to set being a new shooter. I zero'd 5/16 stages. Some on time, some just not getting a good range on the target and missing it, some pure stupidity. It was demoralizing for sure, and in hindsight, I probably should've done the skills division. But you don't know what you don't know and I thought I had prepared enough lol.

The event was about a 4-5hr drive from me. Relatively short compared to a lot of these, but definitely a trip. Here's the expenses:

Gas: $140
Ammo: $200
Entry fee: $250
Lodging: $140

All told that's $730 and while I didn't expect to do great, and I wasn't last place, it was a tough cost to eat. However even being near last place I was able to get a nice prize (free horn. ultrasonic cleaner MSRP $799). The prize table was great in that respect, but paying all that money only to zero about 1/3rd of the stages was depressing.

The community was great too, a guy even gave me one of his shooting bags for keeps after giving me some shooting tips. It's definitely a nice community.

Here are a couple things I think could be useful.

If there was a way to incorporate the shooter being able to ask for an assist/hint/help on the stage at cost of a point penalty, while still being able to shoot it on the clock, that might be useful, especially for find/range/engage types where there's a lot more skills needed to complete the stage. Like a handicap, lower tier, higher # of assists allowed or lower penalty for using one.

Secondly, having a bare minimum or recommended gear list posted for the event would be extremely useful. You can say "we'll help you, just come shoot" but no one wants to look stupid or unprepared in front of a bunch of strangers, especially when most of them are professional shooters. And plus, I don't want to travel 5-6 hours on a hope and a prayer that if there's something I missed, a stranger, in a community I don't know, will have it available to loan out. I'm spending too much money to be comfortable taking that risk. You can't just go observe one of these on the weekend unless you're really lucky to live next door to one. It would be good assurance for a new shooter to know that if they bring at least what's on the list, they'll be able to do the event, even if not optimally.

I RO'd for a couple matches before entering for one so I wasn't completely oblivious, but most probably won't. Those are my thoughts. Hope they are useful at least. Please take them with a healthy dose of salt.

I definitely plan to compete again. After licking my wounds I learned a ton and especially on what I should've focused my practice on.

 

[KnowNothing256]

Andrevius thank you for the summary. You're a better man than me, I wasn't about to read through 300+ posts. I think I'm one of the common shooters you guys are trying to attract. I'm not a shooter by trade and am a newbie to the sport and shooting in general. In fact I bought my first rifle right here on sniper's hide a year ago. I'd like to share my experience of my first match with you guys so you can see it from my perspective.

I finished my first competition about a month or two ago. An NRL 2 day hunter competition. I jumped in the deep end for sure. NRL had the option of doing skills division, but of course I wanted to compete and see how I'd do against all the veterans. Didn't plan to win anything, just wanted to try and not zero any stages. I felt that was a pretty reasonable goal for me to set being a new shooter. I zero'd 5/16 stages. Some on time, some just not getting a good range on the target and missing it, some pure stupidity. It was demoralizing for sure, and in hindsight, I probably should've done the skills division. But you don't know what you don't know and I thought I had prepared enough lol.

The event was about a 4-5hr drive from me. Relatively short compared to a lot of these, but definitely a trip. Here's the expenses:

Gas: $140
Ammo: $200
Entry fee: $250
Lodging: $140

All told that's $730 and while I didn't expect to do great, and I wasn't last place, it was a tough cost to eat. However even being near last place I was able to get a nice prize (free horn. ultrasonic cleaner MSRP $799). The prize table was great in that respect, but paying all that money only to zero about 1/3rd of the stages was depressing.

The community was great too, a guy even gave me one of his shooting bags for keeps after giving me some shooting tips. It's definitely a nice community.

Here are a couple things I think could be useful.

If there was a way to incorporate the shooter being able to ask for an assist/hint/help on the stage at cost of a point penalty, while still being able to shoot it on the clock, that might be useful, especially for find/range/engage types where there's a lot more skills needed to complete the stage. Like a handicap, lower tier, higher # of assists allowed or lower penalty for using one.

Secondly, having a bare minimum or recommended gear list posted for the event would be extremely useful. You can say "we'll help you, just come shoot" but no one wants to look stupid or unprepared in front of a bunch of strangers, especially when most of them are professional shooters. And plus, I don't want to travel 5-6 hours on a hope and a prayer that if there's something I missed, a stranger, in a community I don't know, will have it available to loan out. I'm spending too much money to be comfortable taking that risk. You can't just go observe one of these on the weekend unless you're really lucky to live next door to one. It would be good assurance for a new shooter to know that if they bring at least what's on the list, they'll be able to do the event, even if not optimally.

I RO'd for a couple matches before entering for one so I wasn't completely oblivious, but most probably won't. Those are my thoughts. Hope they are useful at least. Please take them with a healthy dose of salt.

I definitely plan to compete again. After licking my wounds I learned a ton and especially on what I should've focused my practice on.

I really like the idea of a recommended minimum gear list, that's fantastic. Glad to hear you walked away with a solid prize, and that you've maintained a positive attitude on the competition, deep end for sure! I'm headed to my first NRL Hunter match in a couple weeks too, good on you for just going after it; I eased into the game with some local NRL22 matches, but wind is gonna be an interesting added dimension...

 

[Killer Deal]

Andrevius thank you for the summary. You're a better man than me, I wasn't about to read through 300+ posts. I think I'm one of the common shooters you guys are trying to attract. I'm not a shooter by trade and am a newbie to the sport and shooting in general. In fact I bought my first rifle right here on sniper's hide a year ago. I'd like to share my experience of my first match with you guys so you can see it from my perspective.

I finished my first competition about a month or two ago. An NRL 2 day hunter competition. I jumped in the deep end for sure. NRL had the option of doing skills division, but of course I wanted to compete and see how I'd do against all the veterans. Didn't plan to win anything, just wanted to try and not zero any stages. I felt that was a pretty reasonable goal for me to set being a new shooter. I zero'd 5/16 stages. Some on time, some just not getting a good range on the target and missing it, some pure stupidity. It was demoralizing for sure, and in hindsight, I probably should've done the skills division. But you don't know what you don't know and I thought I had prepared enough lol.

The event was about a 4-5hr drive from me. Relatively short compared to a lot of these, but definitely a trip. Here's the expenses:

Gas: $140
Ammo: $200
Entry fee: $250
Lodging: $140

All told that's $730 and while I didn't expect to do great, and I wasn't last place, it was a tough cost to eat. However even being near last place I was able to get a nice prize (free horn. ultrasonic cleaner MSRP $799). The prize table was great in that respect, but paying all that money only to zero about 1/3rd of the stages was depressing.

The community was great too, a guy even gave me one of his shooting bags for keeps after giving me some shooting tips. It's definitely a nice community.

Here are a couple things I think could be useful.

If there was a way to incorporate the shooter being able to ask for an assist/hint/help on the stage at cost of a point penalty, while still being able to shoot it on the clock, that might be useful, especially for find/range/engage types where there's a lot more skills needed to complete the stage. Like a handicap, lower tier, higher # of assists allowed or lower penalty for using one.

Secondly, having a bare minimum or recommended gear list posted for the event would be extremely useful. You can say "we'll help you, just come shoot" but no one wants to look stupid or unprepared in front of a bunch of strangers, especially when most of them are professional shooters. And plus, I don't want to travel 5-6 hours on a hope and a prayer that if there's something I missed, a stranger, in a community I don't know, will have it available to loan out. I'm spending too much money to be comfortable taking that risk. You can't just go observe one of these on the weekend unless you're really lucky to live next door to one. It would be good assurance for a new shooter to know that if they bring at least what's on the list, they'll be able to do the event, even if not optimally.

I RO'd for a couple matches before entering for one so I wasn't completely oblivious, but most probably won't. Those are my thoughts. Hope they are useful at least. Please take them with a healthy dose of salt.

I definitely plan to compete again. After licking my wounds I learned a ton and especially on what I should've focused my practice on.

100% I appreciate your added insights. I took the time because I have a vision to create my own range for membership and to host competitions and while I'm working and putting money away. I want to take the opportunity to do things right or the best way they I can figure out.

I know there's no way to please everyone but if I can really focus on the middle 66% I'm happy. That's the life Blood of competition and the shooting sports in general.

Pretty bold jumping right into a 2 day match as well, by the way. It's a humbling experience. My first match without any coaching .... 1 impact and like 79 misses talk about mortifying. Haha someone probably should of jumped in and threw me a bone, but it is what it is. I'm a capable shooter now but I want to create something special and unique that can be a destination venue of sorts for all the action shooting sports but my main focus is long range precision shooting because I can only focus on so much and do it excellently.

Keep at it and welcome to the journey.

 

[Rob01]

Andrevius thank you for the summary. You're a better man than me, I wasn't about to read through 300+ posts. I think I'm one of the common shooters you guys are trying to attract. I'm not a shooter by trade and am a newbie to the sport and shooting in general. In fact I bought my first rifle right here on sniper's hide a year ago. I'd like to share my experience of my first match with you guys so you can see it from my perspective.

I finished my first competition about a month or two ago. An NRL 2 day hunter competition. I jumped in the deep end for sure. NRL had the option of doing skills division, but of course I wanted to compete and see how I'd do against all the veterans. Didn't plan to win anything, just wanted to try and not zero any stages. I felt that was a pretty reasonable goal for me to set being a new shooter. I zero'd 5/16 stages. Some on time, some just not getting a good range on the target and missing it, some pure stupidity. It was demoralizing for sure, and in hindsight, I probably should've done the skills division. But you don't know what you don't know and I thought I had prepared enough lol.

The event was about a 4-5hr drive from me. Relatively short compared to a lot of these, but definitely a trip. Here's the expenses:

Gas: $140
Ammo: $200
Entry fee: $250
Lodging: $140

All told that's $730 and while I didn't expect to do great, and I wasn't last place, it was a tough cost to eat. However even being near last place I was able to get a nice prize (free horn. ultrasonic cleaner MSRP $799). The prize table was great in that respect, but paying all that money only to zero about 1/3rd of the stages was depressing.

The community was great too, a guy even gave me one of his shooting bags for keeps after giving me some shooting tips. It's definitely a nice community.

Here are a couple things I think could be useful.

If there was a way to incorporate the shooter being able to ask for an assist/hint/help on the stage at cost of a point penalty, while still being able to shoot it on the clock, that might be useful, especially for find/range/engage types where there's a lot more skills needed to complete the stage. Like a handicap, lower tier, higher # of assists allowed or lower penalty for using one.

Secondly, having a bare minimum or recommended gear list posted for the event would be extremely useful. You can say "we'll help you, just come shoot" but no one wants to look stupid or unprepared in front of a bunch of strangers, especially when most of them are professional shooters. And plus, I don't want to travel 5-6 hours on a hope and a prayer that if there's something I missed, a stranger, in a community I don't know, will have it available to loan out. I'm spending too much money to be comfortable taking that risk. You can't just go observe one of these on the weekend unless you're really lucky to live next door to one. It would be good assurance for a new shooter to know that if they bring at least what's on the list, they'll be able to do the event, even if not optimally.

I RO'd for a couple matches before entering for one so I wasn't completely oblivious, but most probably won't. Those are my thoughts. Hope they are useful at least. Please take them with a healthy dose of salt.

I definitely plan to compete again. After licking my wounds I learned a ton and especially on what I should've focused my practice on.

Believe me you guys getting into the sport now have a huge advantage with tons of write ups, youyube videos and thousands of posts here on the Hide not to mention having one day matches as an option. Now this isn't a "when I was young we walked up hill both ways to school in the snow" post but my first match I drove 8 hours to it and it was going in cold for a 2.5 day match where you had to range all your targets with the scope. It was fun and got me hooked and my next match was a plane flight to south TX for 5 days and the first SH Cup and it took off from there. This was years before the PRS or NRL was a wet dream. I got hooked and practiced and shot matches when I could. I traveled all over the country doing it taking time off work and paying for flights, cars, hotels etc. Cheap? Nope but it was my hobby and I had a blast doing it with my friends. And you will make friends eventually at matches. Don't feel like you need a list of people going into a match who will help you. You don't. Go and have fun. It's a sport and hobby and not life or death. I am bringing a new shooter to a smaller one day match this weekend and we will see if he likes it or not. I think he will.

My point is that this is a sport that some get into and love and some get into and like but don't put much effort into and some get into and find it's not for them. Only you can figure out which you are. Shooting matches is not going to make you better. Watching the sport definitely won't but you can do it with the thousands of videos out there now without leaving your couch and get an idea on gear. Practice will make you better. You shot a match and learned your weak spots and what you need to work on and what you need to upgrade in gear. Do it. Practice and then when you go to your next match you will be more prepared and do better hopefully.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Still a time issue for me. timing out on almost every stage and only shooting 60% of a match sucks. the last match I shot my squad was full of fairly new shooters and they all timed out.

it kinda feels like if you went to play golf and had to stop playing each hole once you reached par. not playing the entire hole regardless of how terrible your score is would suck.

 

[Lowlight]

This was why I wanted to consider par times plus extra time to help

If stages were 5 minutes, you could say, Stage 1 has a 2 Minute par time, you get 100% of the points, after 3 minutes you lose one, etc, but you would get to shoot everything

You can actually work it in both directions, if you have a stage with a 3 minute par time, after 4 you lose a point but under 2 you can gain a point, or whatever number the MD wants to use, 2.30 etc,

as a side note, I started timing out a bit too, getting old, slowing down, not in a hurry cause I don't care really, but normally my hit count is higher the slower I go, I might time out for one or two shots, but normally I hit better.

Time management is a trick, how you manage your gear, etc, all matters,

 

[Rob01]

Still a time issue for me. timing out on almost every stage and only shooting 60% of a match sucks. the last match I shot my squad was full of fairly new shooters and they all timed out.

it kinda feels like if you went to play golf and had to stop playing each hole once you reached par. not playing the entire hole regardless of how terrible your score is would suck.

And that is the point where people either quit, see they need work and put in the effort and practice to get better with time management and movement, or just say screw it and hit what they can in that time. It’s the shooters choice.

 

[Lowlight]

There are things the series could be doing to help

There are no resources for a new shooter beyond what individuals do themselves for self-promotion. That alone is great, there is a lot of content out there, however, the series does nothing to promote new shooters or help shepherd them along

The GAP Grind is just a big churn and burn money maker, jamming 400+ shooters in one place and moving them through at warp speed, it does nothing positive for the individual but is a big revenue driver.

It's really poorly designed and implemented consider all the experience out there

 

[sleeplz]

There are things the series could be doing to help

There are no resources for a new shooter beyond what individuals do themselves for self-promotion. That alone is great, there is a lot of content out there, however, the series does nothing to promote new shooters or help shepherd them along

The GAP Grind is just a big churn and burn money maker, jamming 400+ shooters in one place and moving them through at warp speed, it does nothing positive for the individual but is a big revenue driver.

It's really poorly designed and implemented consider all the experience out there

Can you run your own league or match that shows us how it’s really done? Ideas are easy, execution is everything.

All these ideas on 8 pages are great, but how many people in these 8 pages decided to run their own match with the rules they like?

 

[W54/XM-388]

Can you run your own league or match that shows us how it’s really done? Ideas are easy, execution is everything.

All these ideas on 8 pages are great, but how many people in these 8 pages decided to run their own match with the rules they like?

Perhaps you missed the part about how the PRS owners actively worked to destroy anyone else hosting matches and doing underhanded things to destroy any competing series?

It's kind of hard to build something better when another party that mostly cares about money for themselves, but has the recognized name, is busy trying to destroy you so they can keep all the money and glory for themselves...

 

[Lowlight]

I am doing some stuff with Chris moving forward, but minor

But my honest answer to that question is, NO...

I am not running anything anymore, beyond this place and my classes. I don't even run the SHC, I let the RTC do it.

The truth is, they ruined me for competition. I have no competitive drive, and the desire to step up and take the reins is gone. Over the years they have worked very hard to suppress me, my matches, and my reach. I am a bit tired of it so I can not so quietly fade into the background and give them some of their own actions back at them,

I am opening up my range for Chris to use to experiment, with the idea that bigger plans will move to places like Cameo to execute. We are brainstorming in the background and making some small incremental changes. You don't really notice because they have a tendency to attack, if we can slip the changes in without them noticing something might get done.

If you think about it, the Missouri MoST series started off with my ideas posted on here during a transition period. This is more so for someone to implement on their own.

Another example is the WYCO league, they are regional doing great matches, and not afraid to work outside the box. Seriously though I talk to people and they are generally afraid. They believe because of the propaganda if they are not affiliated with a LEAGUE they will not get shooters.

the WYCO people were approached by the PRS, I asked what they offered, and the answer was nothing, they told the league their affiliation alone will grow their numbers and pay them offsetting the costs to join the PRS. My advice was to stand alone

But no, I am too busy and not interested in taking over any of this

 

[sleeplz]

Perhaps you missed the part about how the PRS owners actively worked to destroy anyone else hosting matches and doing underhanded things to destroy any competing series?

It's kind of hard to build something better when another party that mostly cares about money for themselves, but has the recognized name, is busy trying to destroy you so they can keep all the money and glory for themselves...

I did miss that part. So the answer is to give up and complain? But never make any changes?

If lowlight started matches up in Colorado, with the rules he wants other organizations to follow, would you shoot it?

 

[b6graham]

I did miss that part. So the answer is to give up and complain? But never make any changes?

If lowlight started matches up in Colorado, with the rules he wants other organizations to follow, would you shoot it?

I would. i like shooting matches. and soon...finally...CO will be my home state

 

[Lowlight]

As an example, I just ordered 3 Metal Barricades, 3 tank traps, new targets to include negative targets,

We are going to build something but it will be a laboratory

The lab will put out content and give you examples and options, but others need to set up

 

[sleeplz]

I am doing some stuff with Chris moving forward, but minor

But my honest answer to that question is, NO...

I am not running anything anymore, beyond this place and my classes. I don't even run the SHC, I let the RTC do it.

The truth is, they ruined me for competition. I have no competitive drive, and the desire to step up and take the reins is gone. Over the years they have worked very hard to suppress me, my matches, and my reach. I am a bit tired of it so I can not so quietly fade into the background and give them some of their own actions back at them,

I am opening up my range for Chris to use to experiment, with the idea that bigger plans will move to places like Cameo to execute. We are brainstorming in the background and making some small incremental changes. You don't really notice because they have a tendency to attack, if we can slip the changes in without them noticing something might get done.

If you think about it, the Missouri MoST series started off with my ideas posted on here during a transition period. This is more so for someone to implement on their own.

Another example is the WYCO league, they are regional doing great matches, and not afraid to work outside the box. Seriously though I talk to people and they are generally afraid. They believe because of the propaganda if they are not affiliated with a LEAGUE they will not get shooters.

the WYCO people were approached by the PRS, I asked what they offered, and the answer was nothing, they told the league their affiliation alone will grow their numbers and pay them offsetting the costs to join the PRS. My advice was to stand alone

But no, I am too busy and not interested in taking over any of this

WYCO is killing it. But even they can’t implement some of the wants that are in this thread.

My point is instead of wishes, that energy can be spent where someone in this thread runs series/match.

Imagine Prs telling you how you should run your website. Fuck that, you run your rules and implement what you want. If people don’t like it, they can go to Facebook.

 

[Rob01]

I did miss that part. So the answer is to give up and complain? But never make any changes?

If lowlight started matches up in Colorado, with the rules he wants other organizations to follow, would you shoot it?

Well step up then! You got the answers. Put them to work.

 

[Lowlight]

If and when we execute this, you will only see one thing a year from me, maybe two

I changed the RTC SHC to the Sniper's Hide Challenge so I can use the Sniper's Hide Cup in our experimentations, that was by design.

You have to look at what Chris Way is doing and influencing, he will be the one to watch moving forward,

I am being straight up, they burned me out, and I have no interest in stepping up, because people, including those who have commented here, have folded. Many saw the exact same thing as me, at the exact same time, and made the exact same comments I make to me back, but refused to stand in the light and repeat the claims.

Lots of cowardice out there, people are happy to wash rinse repeat

If you think people are not paying attention I will say you are wrong. I have been contacted by PRS MDs, they do it on the sly and ask me for advice to change things. I always tell them to start small, create a signature stage and build on that... if you do 10 stages mix in 3 that go outside the box. The same problem arises, they can't implement enough things because they fall outside the rules.

People have to be willing to take a risk, that means a group (Like WYCO) needs to step up and stand above the rest and say, when we need changes we make changes and having 100 people show up is not a reason not to change but a reason too change. Most feel if they have an ass in the seat they are doing it right, well that is no longer the case. You can still bore a 100 asses.

 

[Rob01]

The emperor has no clothes. That is what MDs don’t understand.

 

[Lowlight]

I think many do, but enough people scare them into thinking they need the PRS name attached

If someone randomly announced a match, with a decent COF, in a place not known for PRS matches and outlined some changes and how things would be different, I don't think they would have a problem filling it up.

The reason matches dont' fill today is repetition, they are either more of the same, and out of the way, or not unique enough to gain interest.

Look at a place like Cameo today, people saw what they have to offer and everyone is running from both sides of the country to show up. Because the location creates a unique challenge and any COF is bound to be interesting due to the views.

 

[sleeplz]

Well step up then! You got the answers. Put them to work.

I’m not the one complaining…. If someone was touching your car, would you start an internet thread or do something about it.

These complaint threads have been going on for years and I remember the demise of Prs was imminent. Yet the gap grind still has 400 shooters every year, NRL couldn’t really address a lot of the snipershide ideas, and Prs spread to the west.

 

[Rob01]

I’m not complaining either. I could give a rats ass about the PRS. That people think they need them and actually pay them to keep track of their scores amazes me. I shoot what I want when I want. Don’t pay anyone but the MD. It’s the MDs who need to figure they can run matches by themselves like they did for years before 2012.

 

[Lowlight]

People are sheep is what I just read

I would agree, the numbers are all smoke and mirrors, however, if you constantly put them on repeat, that is all people can say, the complaints help slow their takeover and give people information to make better decisions

Changes have been made, in small meaningful ways, just not to a large degree, but then again smaller changes are often more meaningful

The fact that we have a lot more "regional" series is also telling, while the NRL has dropped centerfire for the Hunter and NRL22 is marker, it's also created smaller groups doing things better for their community

So what I have read is stop complaining ... why is it better yet or repetitive and contrived ?

 

[Lowlight]

If I show you how many emails I have from PRS MDs around the world in fact who just throw their hands up and say they are stuck in a box, you'd probably be surprised at who contacts me, and how many. In the end I respect they feel they need it, but they really don't.

They know the Series has no concern, the series wants credit but offers nothing, the MDs see this but many feel the money they make blunts the harm. If you pay $400 to the PRS and bring $10k to $15k in a match the changes become secondary. Any way you slice it, Matches make money, how you manage the costs is the function of the property.

Even in renting property, we are talking $300 for entry, $45 is rent for the property, and you can sponsor t-shirts, food, etc, so a well-done match can bring in a fair amount

Money is the driver and mediocre matches are the results. But when mediocre is all you got, it looks pretty good

 

[Lowlight]

@sleeplz

Since you are here and don't like complaints, tell me

What has the PRS done to GROW THE SPORT ?

Name the program ?

And don't tell me the GAP Grind, that this is not a program that is just a match, one I have shot several times. In fact early on I was asked to shoot it because many of the PROS refused to show up when it wasn't a points event. They had to manipulate it to give guys something in return to even attend.

 

[sleeplz]

@sleeplz

Since you are here and don't like complaints, tell me

What has the PRS done to GROW THE SPORT ?

Name the program ?

And don't tell me the GAP Grind, that this is not a program that is just a match, one I have shot several times. In fact early on I was asked to shoot it because many of the PROS refused to show up when it wasn't a points event. They had to manipulate it to give guys something in return to even attend.

I’m not sure how they’ve grown the sport. But they sure have grown their bank accounts and continue to be successful. I call that a clue.

We ask questions on what they’ve claimed all we want, but like it or not, they continue to profit. I really could care less in anyway. It doesn’t bother me as this is just a hobby.

If MDs decide that making money is more important then changes, that’s the MDs decision.

Anyone here that wants change should make the changes themselves. That’s my main point. Don’t be a talker, be a walker.

Lowlight, if I complained about your website; you would laugh and still do your own thing. Just like the prs.

 

[Lowlight]

Lowlight, if I complained about your website; you would laugh and still do your own thing. Just like the prs.

I get told how to run my business every day, nothing new there,

I think there is a fair difference, I actively change and attempt to make the user experience better.

I have "Reinvested" my money in SH and make every attempt to "payback" the community in what I consider a variety of ways sorry you don't see that

I also get taken advantage of a lot ... many people offer to ride my coattails

How many companies made their bones on this site and were given the preferred treatment only to walk away?

Even Shannon was given a free slot to post advertisements to "grow K&M" and when I removed that, because he was taking advantage I was the bad guy... When I informed K&M that their free period of several years was over they had to pay like any other company they refused. So they were removed, then Shannon reach out when his numbers dropped and wanted back on and offered to pay me anything to get back on. I said no...

But I do attempt to improve the experience I think that alone is different, in fact, part of the automation on here is to remove me from the equation to limit any bias.

Do you ever wonder why I am doing classes with other groups out there? Not just SH training, seems odd I would volunteer to promote a competitor

Same with the podcast, I help most who ask, and what they will pay me is never my question, if I believe in the endeavor I will show up on my dime and help

 

[Rob01]

I am. I walked away from the PRS years ago and haven’t given them a dime. My PRS number is 48. I joined the first year and that’s enough for me.

 

[Lowlight]

Heck even the Scout shit was done with a motive to help bring precision shooting alongside mainstream sports

Both sides dropped the ball, Scout and PRS, but since nobody wants to recall, I signed in Oct, in Jan we had SHOT SHOW with a PRS event that was held the weekend prior.

I asked Scout to bring a camera crew on their dime, we filmed parts of the event, and then at the end, I did Hero Videos for any PRS member that wanted a Spinning Hero Shot.

We included their sponsors a rundown of equipment, it was all done for nothing

Unfortunately, the Scout software was second-rate shareware and most of those guys jumped from SH to FB, and all that went away. But my plan was to use Scout resources, and being a "sports site" I was hoping to place PRS shooting next to football and baseball so when you saw one you also saw the other.

Scout lied and left me out in the cold despite having the second biggest numbers on their platform, as well their software upgrade was subpar, however, everything was done with an eye on promoting shooting competitions alongside the mainstream sports

So @sleeplz while you may think we do nothing but complain, over the years we have attempted to step up and make changes

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

I have no plans to shoot anything but WYCO and WPR matches for the foreseeable future. I have shot club matches with these guys for years before Luke and Pete started the two leagues. They are doing it right, and I can shoot shoot most of both leagues' venues within a couple of hours drive. I think that will be a very important point moving forward.

 

[Rob01]

Saturday I am going to shoot the Coastal Outlaw Precision Rifle match held by Alliance Outdoors here in NC. Heard it was a fun match and they even have a prize table. But, but, but how could they do that without the PRS?!?!? Don't all matches get their prizes from the PRS??!?! LOL

 

[SanPatHogger]

How about if there were options? I've only shot 2 precision rfle matches, both 22.
There are guys there that kill it, make it look easy.....
What if there were 2 sets of rules for the same stage?
The guys that are badasses get 2 minutes to shoot a stage, each hit is 4 points, put enough targets out there that they will have a hard time without timing out. Then the other guys shoot, a hit is 3 points, but they get 3 minutes?
Maybe not exactly like that. Maybe 2 classes, fast and slow. Just make sure that they guys who are new at least get to shoot the whole thing.
USPSA has the hit per time, or time per hit factor. The guy who runs through fast but hits nothing looses. The guy who goes real slow but hits all A's does ok. The guy who can rip through the stage and make most of the hits wins.
I'm new to the competition part of shooting but having shot both USPSA and a match that I think has PRS type rules and seeing how they work it might be cool to combine the 2 somehow.

 

[SanPatHogger]

I see this was said in post 356.... Par times.

 

[D_TROS]

Can you run your own league or match that shows us how it’s really done? Ideas are easy, execution is everything.

All these ideas on 8 pages are great, but how many people in these 8 pages decided to run their own match with the rules they like?

I started running matches. Eastern CO. Second match was last sat. Will have a match the first sat of ea month for the rest of the year except June (will be shooting steel safai)

My favorite match ea time is Raton NM monthly (possibly due the terrain but it is very uniqu and fun) so I modeled after that. 10 stages. 6 targets per stage. one shot per target.

I like alot of ideas here. Want to make it fun but also challenge. I also have been shooting since before the inception of the PRS. I have mixed feelings on how things are currently ran and dont think that the management only cares about $$ but I will admit it has become extremely stagnant/repetitive.

Anyway, come out and shoot my match I think you will enjoy it. I like the idea of a time crunch handicap but not sure ive seen the right answer.

O think I will try:
Finish under 1 min get +1 bonus pt
Finish over 2 min get -1 deduction pt

As to having 1-3 stages outside the box I think is tough as practically everything has been tried nut I would say MD's dont do a good job making major matches fun again (MMFA ha), but I do implement a "mental" aspect to ea stage in my match (far to close, no dialing, no bipod, etc etc)

Anyway, see you out there!
DT

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

there are ways that they can make it better but It doesnt appear they want to. in my limited experience talking with MDs it seems like the attitude for newbies is "good luck" and "get your feet wet" while the matches are designed around challenging the top competitors. everyone else is just really jumping into the deep end to find out if they sink or swim.

I would be curious on seeing the numbers around retaining new shooters.

 

[D_TROS]

there are ways that they can make it better but It doesnt appear they want to. in my limited experience talking with MDs it seems like the attitude for newbies is "good luck" and "get your feet wet" while the matches are designed around challenging the top competitors. everyone else is just really jumping into the deep end to find out if they sink or swim.

I would be curious on seeing the numbers around retaining new shooters.

MY EXACT pet peeve about what matches have become...winners hitting 60-70% which invariable puts the loser at 10-30% which flat out isnt going to retain them. I want last place hitting 50% at worst..and if there is a 3 way tie at the top at 99% im perfectly happy with that.

Hitting steel is fun. And I cant believe how much pushback I get for this concept.

of course how to implement. I think double target sizes is a bad idea...too expensive for MD's. But perfectly acceptable to have 8/10 stages where a clean sould be doable and 2-4 stages where 50% would be a tough score...again things MD's should know.

There should be requirements for MD's ie be a shooter for at least 2 years. match description ran over by the BOD of all MD's, etc etc.

Las Vegas crew always put on the best fun matches because they had major involvement from their club from ea member designing stages then talking it over and most impotantly having their members be RO's and not a brothers cousins uncle kids that can be pushed over.

little things add up

hmmmm
DT

 

[ma smith]

MY EXACT pet peeve about what matches have become...winners hitting 60-70% which invariable puts the loser at 10-30% which flat out isnt going to retain them.

This is exactly the main problem with current matches. Shooting steel is binary (yes/no).

With paper targets, even un-competitive shooters walk away with a record of mistakes, if not scores, you can get the feedback and learn. When shooting steel, the responsse is binary. Under 50%, you would get very limited feedback purely in terms of information.

This doubly true at 20-25% levels, etc.

IMHO to fix this are to create more feedback to the shooters... not necessarily higher scores, more points, or more prizes.

The problem for MDs is that feedback in LR shooting needs either more steel or live spotters, and both are hard to add without operational complexity or expense. Again, purely operational consdierations, putting aside ego/scoring/ etc.

IMHO there are a couple variables, some talked about here...

(1) More time...
(2) Bigger targets...
(3) Spotters calling shots...

So question for the group, is how to increase training feedback of PRS type stages without consdiering prizes/points/ego/rankings?

Which of the above are most cost effective, logistically scalable, etc?

 

[sleeplz]

MY EXACT pet peeve about what matches have become...winners hitting 60-70% which invariable puts the loser at 10-30% which flat out isnt going to retain them. I want last place hitting 50% at worst..and if there is a 3 way tie at the top at 99% im perfectly happy with that.

Hitting steel is fun. And I cant believe how much pushback I get for this concept.

of course how to implement. I think double target sizes is a bad idea...too expensive for MD's. But perfectly acceptable to have 8/10 stages where a clean sould be doable and 2-4 stages where 50% would be a tough score...again things MD's should know.

There should be requirements for MD's ie be a shooter for at least 2 years. match description ran over by the BOD of all MD's, etc etc.

Las Vegas crew always put on the best fun matches because they had major involvement from their club from ea member designing stages then talking it over and most impotantly having their members be RO's and not a brothers cousins uncle kids that can be pushed over.

little things add up

hmmmm
DT

I’ve been to a few of your matches. Blast to shoot but would you say your winners typically hit 99% of targets?

I remember a match where the winner hit 40% and he was explaining to the new guys, this was the hardest match he ever shot. Newbies were absolutely crushed and I never saw them come back. I’ll definitely continue to make my way out there but your not really doing the 99% hit rate with last place hitting 50%. Unless that’s new within the last 7 months.

 

[sleeplz]

Heck even the Scout shit was done with a motive to help bring precision shooting alongside mainstream sports

Both sides dropped the ball, Scout and PRS, but since nobody wants to recall, I signed in Oct, in Jan we had SHOT SHOW with a PRS event that was held the weekend prior.

I asked Scout to bring a camera crew on their dime, we filmed parts of the event, and then at the end, I did Hero Videos for any PRS member that wanted a Spinning Hero Shot.

We included their sponsors a rundown of equipment, it was all done for nothing

Unfortunately, the Scout software was second-rate shareware and most of those guys jumped from SH to FB, and all that went away. But my plan was to use Scout resources, and being a "sports site" I was hoping to place PRS shooting next to football and baseball so when you saw one you also saw the other.

Scout lied and left me out in the cold despite having the second biggest numbers on their platform, as well their software upgrade was subpar, however, everything was done with an eye on promoting shooting competitions alongside the mainstream sports

So @sleeplz while you may think we do nothing but complain, over the years we have attempted to step up and make changes

I’m not discounting anything you’ve done website wise. But if the complaint is Prs sucks and they’re money grabbers, then the fix is I’ll run my own league.

 

[Killer Deal]

This is exactly the main problem with current matches. Shooting steel is binary (yes/no).

With paper targets, even un-competitive shooters walk away with a record of mistakes, if not scores, you can get the feedback and learn. When shooting steel, the responsse is binary. Under 50%, you would get very limited feedback purely in terms of information.

This doubly true at 20-25% levels, etc.

IMHO to fix this are to create more feedback to the shooters... not necessarily higher scores, more points, or more prizes.

The problem for MDs is that feedback in LR shooting needs either more steel or live spotters, and both are hard to add without operational complexity or expense. Again, purely operational consdierations, putting aside ego/scoring/ etc.

IMHO there are a couple variables, some talked about here...

(1) More time...
(2) Bigger targets...
(3) Spotters calling shots...

So question for the group, is how to increase training feedback of PRS type stages without consdiering prizes/points/ego/rankings?

Which of the above are most cost effective, logistically scalable, etc?

I see what you're going for. Your feedback is the ability to hit the smaller targets on command. A stage design that gives you multiple different sized targets is the feedback. So it's 50-50 in one sense but it's variable in another if I hit or miss a 3 moa , 2 moa, 1 moa or smaller target at different distances. That the feedback on my gear and ability as a shooter. 1 moa target at a thousand yards is roughly a A zone on a uspsa target.

If spotters provide feedback for newer shooters with what happen down range that helps that process.

Interesting stage designs increases engagement. Coaching and mentorship grows shooters, active outreach and shooter friendly COFs grows the sport.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

MY EXACT pet peeve about what matches have become...winners hitting 60-70% which invariable puts the loser at 10-30% which flat out isnt going to retain them. I want last place hitting 50% at worst..and if there is a 3 way tie at the top at 99% im perfectly happy with that.

Hitting steel is fun. And I cant believe how much pushback I get for this concept.

of course how to implement. I think double target sizes is a bad idea...too expensive for MD's. But perfectly acceptable to have 8/10 stages where a clean sould be doable and 2-4 stages where 50% would be a tough score...again things MD's should know.

There should be requirements for MD's ie be a shooter for at least 2 years. match description ran over by the BOD of all MD's, etc etc.

Las Vegas crew always put on the best fun matches because they had major involvement from their club from ea member designing stages then talking it over and most impotantly having their members be RO's and not a brothers cousins uncle kids that can be pushed over.

little things add up

hmmmm
DT

main reason Im picky about what matches I shoot and only do a handfull a year even though I really like shooting them. I dont shoot 2 day matches, matches over $50, or super competitive matches. I dont have the time or resources it would take to get up to speed and get the full experience. As it stands I only shoot about 50rds out of an 80rd match anyway because of time.

 

[sleeplz]

I see what you're going for. Your feedback is the ability to hit the smaller targets on command. A stage design that gives you multiple different sized targets is the feedback. So it's 50-50 in one sense but it's variable in another if I hit or miss a 3 moa , 2 moa, 1 moa or smaller target at different distances. That the feedback on my gear and ability as a shooter. 1 moa target at a thousand yards is roughly a A zone on a uspsa target.

If spotters provide feedback for newer shooters with what happen down range that helps that process.

Interesting stage designs increases engagement. Coaching and mentorship grows shooters, active outreach and shooter friendly COFs grows the sport.

Seems easy. Can you implement this and I’ll shoot your match?

 

[JBoomhauer]

I see what you're going for. Your feedback is the ability to hit the smaller targets on command. A stage design that gives you multiple different sized targets is the feedback. So it's 50-50 in one sense but it's variable in another if I hit or miss a 3 moa , 2 moa, 1 moa or smaller target at different distances. That the feedback on my gear and ability as a shooter. 1 moa target at a thousand yards is roughly a A zone on a uspsa target.

If spotters provide feedback for newer shooters with what happen down range that helps that process.

Interesting stage designs increases engagement. Coaching and mentorship grows shooters, active outreach and shooter friendly COFs grows the sport.

I believe you may have shot a couple matches that I have CO-MDd on.

From my point of view, I will not offer unsolicited advice no matter how painful the stage appears for the shooter.

Certain people Do Not Want advise.

If you were to request advise it would be another story. If you are who I think you are, you have earned it the hard way.

Do not be afraid to ask for help and make it clear you are doing do. People will bend over backwards once they realize that input is requested and appreciated.

 

[Lowlight]

I’m not discounting anything you’ve done website wise. But if the complaint is Prs sucks and they’re money grabbers, then the fix is I’ll run my own league.

No it’s not that Is merely your biased opinion

There are plenty of new leagues out there another is not needed nor should they really be wanted - just as Rob noted why pay someone to keep your score ? Cause that is all the series does is keep a score and stand between you and sponsors

Having this site alone has done more positive than you can measure so clearly I see things in a way you don’t

You’re a tool and a troll really just a higher functioning one who is probably validated by his attendance in at a match because he nothing else.

Sorry things don’t move at your pace but there are equal and opposite forces trying to keep the status quo. That is an uphill battle - good thing the world isn’t fill with cowards and bystanders like you. It’s the guys who buck the system that succeeds

 

[Killer Deal]

I believe you may have shot a couple matches that I have CO-MDd on.

From my point of view, I will not offer unsolicited advice no matter how painful the stage appears for the shooter.

Certain people Do Not Want advise.

If you were to request advise it would be another story. If you are who I think you are, you have earned it the hard way.

Do not be afraid to ask for help and make it clear you are doing do. People will bend over backwards once they realize that input is requested and appreciated.

Haha, I believe so. I'd recognize that tree line in your photo any day.

Just to clarify. I have no complaints. The NE Region is doing things right, IMO.

When I first started 3 years ago everyone wrapped their arms around me and I asked for coaching and guidance at every match my first year and everyone was helpful and more than willing. I say my thanks often in the MMPRL FB group. My second year was the first time going solo and ohhh yeah definitely hard earned, but that was my decision and I own that hence why I went to a class with Mike Mayo and this year I'm doing the IOWA class this year with @lowlight.

I've only shot Snowball this year because I'm relocating to the Midwest. I shot well at Snowball so it's all coming together.

I want to start getting my feet wet co-MDing so that's why I read every comment in this thread so I can be a part of the improvement process and pulling people in just like everyone did for me at Alderbrook. That's an example to replicate for sure.

 

[sleeplz]

No it’s not that Is merely your biased opinion

There are plenty of new leagues out there another is not needed nor should they really be wanted - just as Rob noted why pay someone to keep your score ? Cause that is all the series does is keep a score and stand between you and sponsors

Having this site alone has done more positive than you can measure so clearly I see things in a way you don’t

You’re a tool and a troll really just a higher functioning one who is probably validated by his attendance in at a match because he nothing else.

Sorry things don’t move at your pace but there are equal and opposite forces trying to keep the status quo. That is an uphill battle - good thing the world isn’t fill with cowards and bystanders like you. It’s the guys who buck the system that succeeds

But look at all the leagues like wyco, they have yet to implement most of your ideas because they are too difficult to conduct.

-pay ROs and have them understand the rule set. (Money is tight, and having people enforce rules on their off time takes a special person)
-big/small plates for beginner/expert (requires more setup and money for plates)
-more time to engage equals less points (people would be out there until 8pm)
-matches costing $275, greedy! How could they!(lowlight, you started this trend…)
-the podcast where you talked down abc class with Phil was tough to listen to. Here they had a great idea and you were knocking it.

You want to cherry pick ideas and listen to an echo chamber, fine. Don’t listen to me and discount me as a troll. But you can’t ignore the models that are currently working and wonder why? If Prs is so terrible, why are they still going strong after all these years? Why are they spreading west?

 

[Killer Deal]

Certain people Do Not Want advise.

If you were to request advise it would be another story. If you are who I think you are, you have earned it the hard way.

Do not be afraid to ask for help and make it clear you are doing do. People will bend over backwards once they realize that input is requested and appreciated.

Since we're on the topic, if it's helpful for others. It's awesome to get immediate feedback when shooting from spotters, but one of the the reasons going into my second year I stopped for the on the clock help is I wanted to learn how to do it on my own. Not because I didn't want advise (definitely still need a lot).

It's certainly encouraging to get walked on target especially since I couldn't spot my own hits worth a damn at first, but I knew I'd have to learn how to do it as well. Some may want/need need it and should be encouraged to get that on the clock help whether it's shorter or longer, what ever the individual need is.

Now for myself, since I'm a prisoner of my own experience. After I shoot a stage now, I ask a couple people I look up to (the Tatem's,Johnsons, Jones ect.) How did my body position look? Moving in and out of position? Or anything that stood out. Things like that because that's at least what I've been able to identify as a weakness of mine and many are down and ready to help which is essential if we want the sport to continue to grow right.

But 100% some people want to do it their way and don't want advise. Which I think is foolish, but I get it as men it's hard because we come in feeling like we should already know all these things. So there will always be that. So again very grateful for the folks in the New England Region that have helped me become the shooter I am today. Now as I continue to grow as I shooter I want to be an active member who gives back to the community.

 

[Mormegil87]

Our MD and comminity here must be doing something right.

The BMC has sold out every year its been held. This year it sold out in 18 minutes. Our one day matches will sell out at 120 shooters with a wait list.

Maybe take a page out of our MDs book.

 

[Lowlight]

But look at all the leagues like wyco, they have yet to implement most of your ideas because they are too difficult to conduct.

-pay ROs and have them understand the rule set. (Money is tight, and having people enforce rules on their off time takes a special person)
-big/small plates for beginner/expert (requires more setup and money for plates)
-more time to engage equals less points (people would be out there until 8pm)
-matches costing $275, greedy! How could they!(lowlight, you started this trend…)
-the podcast where you talked down abc class with Phil was tough to listen to. Here they had a great idea and you were knocking it.

You want to cherry pick ideas and listen to an echo chamber, fine. Don’t listen to me and discount me as a troll. But you can’t ignore the models that are currently working and wonder why? If Prs is so terrible, why are they still going strong after all these years? Why are they spreading west?

Hahaha

You act like it’s an all or nothing - you voted for Hillary and abortions I’m sure

The world isn’t an all or nothing and nobody but you asshole are saying I need anything implemented. I have always contend on most things it’s 10% - a 10% change moves the needle in a meaningful way.

People claim This place is dying too and my numbers have never been stronger - people say a lot of dumb shit.

It only took 10 years to cross the Mississippi and having how many owners in how short a period of time is never a sign of strength. Before SH I did due diligence for the big NYC banks out of Greenwich. My name is still on the website.

The individual MD was always the star being taken advantage of, but people don’t care so things will stay stupid for longer

The SHC is still the longest running match after what 18-19 years must being doing something right - especially considering the changes I make that go counter to the matches interest

Trolls gonna troll though Neverwas

 

[mahlv]

Could be wrong, but I think the supply of new bodies to fill the coffers up for Shannon and the boys will run pretty thin, if not dry within a few years. With so many taking the bull by the horns and running their own matches, it's kinda obvious that prs sees the writing on the wall as well, that's the only reason my pea brain can come up with to explain the whole "you can only MD prs matches, and if you do any other nrl or whatever, then fuck you" deal. Never gonna please everyone, but blatant bullying tactics like that, along with the way some of these matches turn out with the "bros" getting 1st place due to crying over terminology after the fact etc, really makes me want to go contribute to that cause(observe my sarcasm please)

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Could be wrong, but I think the supply of new bodies to fill the coffers up for Shannon and the boys will run pretty thin, if not dry within a few years. With so many taking the bull by the horns and running their own matches, it's kinda obvious that prs sees the writing on the wall as well, that's the only reason my pea brain can come up with to explain the whole "you can only MD prs matches, and if you do any other nrl or whatever, then fuck you" deal. Never gonna please everyone, but blatant bullying tactics like that, along with the way some of these matches turn out with the "bros" getting 1st place due to crying over terminology after the fact etc, really makes me want to go contribute to that cause(observe my sarcasm please)

I’m no fan of anyone within PRS, but I can say that all the drama stuff is a very small percentage of what happens. That doesn’t excuse the drama or any bad decisions. But it’s not all that bad at most any match.

As well as normally, except in rare situations does anyone realize there was something afoot until after the match. And then everyone feeds into the drama. From both sides.