Just FYI, I made 4 of the matches at River Bend since you posted this. Thank you.
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Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
- Start date
3 Gun, IDPA, and USPSA have all turned into equipment races. I competed heavily in all of those for 15+ years. PRS is not alone.
All your reasons for NOT shooting PRS are exactly reasons why you should PRS: because you have not clue what a PRS match is.
So a little update for y'all. I've shot a couple more matches since I posted, and I think one of the problems with the matches is these weapon mounted ballistic+LRF devices. Obviously people are shooting with their own rifles, so there will be differences, but these in particular gives a pretty distinct advantage over those who are not using one.
I think these weapon mounted ballistic solver+LRF integrated devices that are becoming more common, and are even built into the scopes in some cases, are probably are going to need their own category. Its harder to compete with someone when they have a target acquisition set up that is so streamlined. It would be like the rifle equivalent of red dot vs iron sight categories on a pistol.
Not as big of a concern for PRS, since everybody gets the ranges. But for detect/range/engage style matches, I think it's something to consider.
I think these weapon mounted ballistic solver+LRF integrated devices that are becoming more common, and are even built into the scopes in some cases, are probably are going to need their own category. Its harder to compete with someone when they have a target acquisition set up that is so streamlined. It would be like the rifle equivalent of red dot vs iron sight categories on a pistol.
Not as big of a concern for PRS, since everybody gets the ranges. But for detect/range/engage style matches, I think it's something to consider.
You mean those Wilcox lasers that cost 10k that I have seen..... like 3 times? In 2 years of shooting NRL hunter and other field matches?
I have seen plenty of people win using sub 1k LRFs and sub 2k LRF Binos. It's not the gear, it's having your shit together with the gear you do have.
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I feel like similar arguments were made when red dots first came out for pistols. You see one or two of them now, but as more companies start to create these integrated devices, like this one:
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...ks-an-optic-for-next-generation-squad-weapon/
Free market will do its thing, the price will come down, and you will start seeing them a lot more in the civilian market. When was the last time a competitive shooter didn't use a Kestrel or Ballistics solver to get their DOPE? They're everywhere now. Tech evolves, the sport evolves with it. I'm just looking at trends.
This thread asked for new shooter perspective. That's what I'm trying to give, and maybe I'm wrong. I'm not the greatest shot for sure, but if I don't have to juggle between finding a target with my binos, lazing it, checking my dope for it, and then finding the target in my scope...and have it all that in a single press of a button? You can't tell me that's not a better system. At a certain point it's more than convenient, it's just plain better.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...ks-an-optic-for-next-generation-squad-weapon/
Free market will do its thing, the price will come down, and you will start seeing them a lot more in the civilian market. When was the last time a competitive shooter didn't use a Kestrel or Ballistics solver to get their DOPE? They're everywhere now. Tech evolves, the sport evolves with it. I'm just looking at trends.
This thread asked for new shooter perspective. That's what I'm trying to give, and maybe I'm wrong. I'm not the greatest shot for sure, but if I don't have to juggle between finding a target with my binos, lazing it, checking my dope for it, and then finding the target in my scope...and have it all that in a single press of a button? You can't tell me that's not a better system. At a certain point it's more than convenient, it's just plain better.
Dude what matches are you shooting because all that blabber has nothing to do with PRS. There are no weapons mounted laser rangefinder ballistic solvers. LOL You know the range to all the targets and have time to get your data ready. You really need to figure what you are talking about as you are way off here.
I’m curious about the competitions you’ve been shooting, where the combined optics/LRF/solution are a strong differentiator in performance. And @Rob01 apparently shares my curiosity lol
And I actually can make an argument that the current tech that combines all of those is inferior. The main civilian offering, the Sig BDX suite of products, suffers so significantly on optical quality that many elect to skip even the 10k binos (which are flat-out excellent when it comes to the LRF/UI portion) and go to the Swaro EL Range or Leica Geovid 3200.COM / Pro glass. I can’t think of a single person running the Sig BDX scope, I imagine because the optical quality isn’t up to the task and also because the drop indicator is only good for the last rangefinder result; that format won’t work with a typical find/range/engage multi-target spread (such as NRL Hunter).
People who would cheerfully drop $10k to buy points at their next few national-level matches (PRS, RTC, CD, or NRL Hunter) are aware of these offerings and aren’t using them, so I really am interested to hear where that tech is a stand-out advantage in the current competitive space.
He is talking about NRL Hunter/Compeition dynamics/Rifle men team challenge/ field style matches where it is blind.
You walk up to the stage, find the targets, range them, get dope, and then go build a position to shoot them in a order given to you all within an limited amount of time.
The current best solution is usually something like sig or leica binos that you can use to range give you the dope, write it down, and then go to work on the rifle.
Example:
Ok I get that and have shot similar matches but I still don’t see what he is complaining about and the example as being a major issue.
I think you're right. He seems to be talking specifically about Team Safari, RTC, Mammoth and other team based find/range/engage matches (including the team division in NRL hunter). Both guys having a WMRF can be a significant advantage in those matches in terms of both saving time and confirming the correct target between team mates.
I don't think a WMRF would really be any better than a good set of range finding binos in Steel Safari or the NRL Hunter individual divisions. But it can be a game changer when shooting with a buddy.
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the minute someone comes in and wipes the field clean and does it consistently with a WMLRF you'll see a rule change
no different of an argument than reloaded 22LR solids...but that never really became an issue because cost and brass and blah blah isn't worth it
no different of an argument than reloaded 22LR solids...but that never really became an issue because cost and brass and blah blah isn't worth it
I think the 22LR reloaded ammo ban was a dumb rule that stifles innovation.
.... the top guys are shooting $4000 22lrs with $4000 scopes on them, with swaros, RRS tripods, leica range finders, kestrels, shooting lab tested lot ammo that costs 40cents+ a round....
If someone wants to do all of the work (and money) to see if reloaded 22LR ammo could even provide a marginal benefits I would say power to them.
I didn’t realize they banned it, but fully agreed, that seems mighty short-sighted or worse. People can handload CF ammo or buy factory, no reason the same can’t be true of RF.
They banned it in open.
And if they are worried about the steel then just give a velocity limit that's fine.
I said it was like that. Not exactly that. Nothing to do with open or the divisions but a similar rule against them like limiting velocity in Tac.
Tell that to the MDs who buy the steel.
And if there were that many that wanted to use hand loaded .22 then they could make their own division for it like “People with too much time on their hands” division. Lol
I'm with you on this one. Open should allow it, MDs should be allowed to forbid it at their discretion if steel life is a concern. But that's not a reason to ban it across the whole discipline, and honestly if handloads appreciably outperformed, it might lead to factory offerings of modernized 22LR projectiles. Let the game experiment and innovate, we'll be better for it.
Okay, I’m going to go out on a limb here as a NRL22/PRS22 match director. I have no problem with hand loading copper solids and using them on my steel. At this point I do not see that either the advantage nor the steel problem is an issue. I think innovation and forward thinking is important.
If it turns out that this really is a game changer, then good! Let us change and allow it as modified or super modified. Sounds like bullshit, but call it whatever you want. Auto racing changed to allow for innovation and ingenuity. Other sports need to learn to do so in order to stay on top.
We will have to do the same or we can stifle innovation and improvement. Choices.
Okay…rant over. Carry on.
Some kind of rule whereby if you are a champion of some kind, be it national or regional or whatever, you cannot compete in the same way for a set period of years, at least two.
Or something if you are a PRS Champion you can compete the following year but in Quantified Performance with an AR and vice-versa.
This comes to mind as I watch the Olympics and I am bored to death by repeat good medal winners.
-Stan
Or something if you are a PRS Champion you can compete the following year but in Quantified Performance with an AR and vice-versa.
This comes to mind as I watch the Olympics and I am bored to death by repeat good medal winners.
-Stan
I shot two of those matches before I realized the entire format is stupid. I am driving 600 miles to shoot, not to look for targets or play on my phone's ballistic app. That they can even still get people to show up and shoot those matches is a remarkable feat of marketing. The terrain and environment is awesome, but the looking for targets on the clock/establishing dope on the clock is beyond stupid.
Different strokes and all. I prefer NRL hunter and field style matches. Square range, known distance is boring to me.
Prize tables should be a random draw using the list of shooters. Prize tables based on match placement mean 10% of shooters claim 90% of prizes. Those shooters are already chronically committed. The 90% are the ones that the target audience. I almost always win local matches, but if that’s only a medal, the last place shooter can get the nice prize.
That's your problem right there.
It’s not stupid, it’s just a more complete test of the skills that go into using a rifle in the field.
Though I’ll admit that what I’ve heard about CD holding matches over and over again without moving targets around was pretty stupid, if true (and supposedly they’ve fixed that going forward).
For me, Find, Range, & Engage matches are a lot more enjoyable than PRS. At a PRS match the RO shows me all of the targets, reads the ranges, and I get to watch 10 other dudes shoot at them (and collaborate with each other to come up with their wind calls & stage plans) before it’s my turn to shoot. It was fun for a couple of years, but now it’s just tedious and boring. And the amount of crybaby bullshit from guys who think it’s nascar is sometimes irritating.
The rush I get from shooting blind stages and relying solely on my own skills to find and hit targets is much better, precisely because it’s hard. The feeling of accomplishment I get from shooting a blind stage clean is also a lot higher than when cleaning a stage at a PRS match.
PRS has its place. For me and some of my shooting buddies that place was learning to shoot well enough that I could move on to UKD field matches. For others PRS is a perfect fit, and good for them.
I wouldn't even be opposed to hiding the targets in the shadows and making us range and dope our own targets on every stage. Where it crosses the line for me is making someone do that "on the clock." A shooting competition is about delivering the shots, not about trying to figure out how fast a person can read their ballistics app. For me, it needs to be about the marksmanship and all of the time "on the clock" needs to be spent delivering the shot.
I don't drive 600 miles to have a "complete test of skills that go into using a rifle 'in the field.'" In fact, I don't even know what "field" you're talking about. I don't have a sniper fetish despite the name of this website. The only "skill" I'm looking to test is delivering a shot to the target under whatever conditions are mandated. If you want me to range the targets off the clock, fine, I have verified DOPE at any distance I'd shoot any of my rifles. But making competitors do that on the clock and then using that to create time pressure ruins the shooting part of the competition for me, which is ALL I care about. Especially nowadays where a laser rangefinder gives you a precise range estimation, range estimation is no longer a skill and is simply running an appliance. Shooting from awkward ass positions at 2 MOA targets in the wind and under time pressure is plenty challenging.
I get zero rush from "blind" stages and after nearly 20 years doing this, I can't see the fascination. You want a blind stage? Enter the lottery and pull an elk tag. You can hike in the mountains, spend nearly all your time glassing for targets "on the clock" and if you're lucky enough to have an opportunity to take a shot, your entire marksmanship challenge will be that one shot. Bonus is that you might get something cool to mount on your wall and you'll certainly have something to eat. If that's your idea of fun (spending a ton of money and time to maybe get nothing at all), you'll love it and you'll get plenty of exercise in the process.
I have never shot PRS. The entry fees alone suggest it's not for me.
Games are fun when they are fair and challenge the things competitors want to see. Having shot a lot of shooting sports, there are a lot of things that I've learned are not games I wish to compete in, e.g., shoving shotgun shells in a magazine tube, looking through binoculars in hopes of finding the hidden targets, walking through a "stage" not knowing what or where the targets are or what the shooting challenge is, walking through a stage and memorizing the stage design so I don't forget to shoot certain targets, etc. The most fun games for me are the simple ones where it comes down to whether you have the skill to consistently put the points on the board or not. Even the best rifle shooter I know missed quite a few targets yesterday, all it takes is the right time pressure and difficult enough shooting positions. Those games will show you who has the skills to stay calm and deliver the shot and who doesn't.
You're all welcome to your opinions and this is mine. I don't want to shoot your blind stages, I don't want to reload a shotgun on the clock, I don't want to look for targets when I came to shoot, I don't want to shoot against people who know where the targets are because they shot your other event earlier this year even though the stages are supposed to be "blind," and I'm getting to the point where I don't want to pay your entry fees so that the people at the top can get all the donated prizes. I'd rather show up and shoot for plaques only or have the donated stuff given away at random. After all, the winners and the losers all had to pay to get there, house themselves, develop their loads, practice, etc.
I think the next frontier for me might even be a rifle game where they limit the equipment you're allowed to use, as in, you get 1-2 shooting bags and a bipod and nothing else.
Based on that ranting wall of text, you're most likely right. Those sorts of matches probably aren't for you, and would be a waste of your time and probably only a source of great frustration for you.
But your inability to comprehend why others might enjoy them doesn’t make the format or the folks who shoot it stupid.
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You would be surprised how many people can't range a target reliably, even when ranging them really isn't difficult at all and there is zero excuse for errors. I've done it before, figured out exactly why, & modified my process.
No one is pulling dope from a ballistics app on the clock. Some will use the AB in their binos, but everyone has hard incremented dope on their arm
NRL Hunter may be a game for some, but it's an educational effort for others. A substantial % of people showing up to NRL Hunter matches want to test the skills needed to hunt ethically and effectively at long ranges in an environment that confirms abilities and exposes weaknesses. It does a pretty good job of that. Most people, even life long hunters, don't realize how much they suck. Once they do, they either give up, or they put in effort to improve.
Never going to happen. Sponsors/donors would stop giving products to prize tables if they started seeing grown men who dropped 76 out of 80 shots walk away with their $1800 suppressor cert or $900 ballistics device in hand. I'm unlikely to ever podium @ an NRL Hunter match, but I'm strongly opposed to participation trophies for adults as a matter of principle
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It’s a raffle for the price of a match fee. There are only 2-3 valuable prizes on the tables I see. A “grown man who dropped 76 points” needs to prove himself worthy? Sounds like the typical group of elitists. I guess I should mock the local guys I beat every match. I’m starting to ciesrly understand the miserable attitude I get from some “jersey shooters”.
You don’t get it. I’ve gotten lots of free stuff. Getting locals out to participate and engage is the problem where I am. Me and 2 other shooters telling everyone else they suck means they are not coming back. Circle jerks only bring in one type of person after their first try.
The problem is most likely you..not everyone else you have a problem with. There are just as many If not more assholes not wearing a jersey at a match as those who do.
Buddy, you’re going to need a seatbelt and helmet for the rest of my opinions
Joking aside, I do think what you’re describing is more accurately called a raffle than a participation prize, but I’m still not in favor of it.
I’d definitely be ok with asking sponsors to reduce their value of product donations by a certain $ amount and then sending that $ amount to the MD to have nicer shirts, bumper stickers, strippers… wait
Im lazy and suck but want rewards like the people who have dedicated years and spent untold tens of thousands of dollars to be able to perform.... sounds like socialism to me
Don’t forget when people sign up for a match most of them don’t give a shit about prizes
The PRS model doesn’t need to change. I’d wager that there are less than 1000 shooters nationwide that regularly attend 2day matches. Those matches are staying full. Hell, our local match limited registration to 80 shooters (because it was regularly drawing 90-100+ for an 8 stage 1 day match) and it fills FAST. But, 80-90% of the shooters are the same shooters every month. Matches are full, shooters are (mostly) happy.
PRS (and all of the other precision long range rifle disciplines) are merely tiny stagnant puddles sitting next to very small ponds…
PRS (and all of the other precision long range rifle disciplines) are merely tiny stagnant puddles sitting next to very small ponds…
I’d like to see PRS COF the day before, but I realize that’s asking for a lot from club match MDs & having COF the night before, rather than the morning of, wouldn't actually change too much for me.
Eventually tech will probably make this an easier option for MDs. The waypoint features that are increasingly common in LRF binos would make it easy to log targets according to the COF into an app, type out COF instructions with target identifications, then push to shooters and/or print out.
Eventually tech will probably make this an easier option for MDs. The waypoint features that are increasingly common in LRF binos would make it easy to log targets according to the COF into an app, type out COF instructions with target identifications, then push to shooters and/or print out.
There is supposably an app that is getting developed/beta tested from prs that will push the cof to everyone. I think they want to get away from paper but it's just another thing to carry and then you gotta carry extra battery packs and deal with connectivity since half the ranges have no cell signal.
I appreciate having the CoF the day/night before, it lets me build out range cards. Some MDs will build out stages that have 8 or more target ranges, sometimes across very significant pans, and this is a HUGE time sink during stage prep to put together all the dope and wind info. Honestly I'd prefer not to see these stages, as they can either gum up the works of match flow, or cause the first several competitors in a squad to shoot a stage without fully being prepared; however, if MDs want to put them out there, it would be wise to advertise the target ranges in advance.
Not sure why having the CoF means needing to carry another thing, with battery packs no less; my phone's charge is more than capable of lasting a day's shooting, and I can download PDFs of the CoF beforehand, no cell service at the range required.
Not sure why having the CoF means needing to carry another thing, with battery packs no less; my phone's charge is more than capable of lasting a day's shooting, and I can download PDFs of the CoF beforehand, no cell service at the range required.
If you folks who think prizes are not enough and costs are too much, for PRS and NRL matches check out this rifle silhouette match in Mexico. Glad it’s theirs and not ours. I really would SERIOUSLY Question attending a match where they charge a C note to handle each box (brick?) of my ammo, I usually carry three 50 round boxes for a one day match. (One for pre practice, and two for the match)
well that would be $5.36 USD, making the match under $11 and the hotel $3.50
but...it's in another country. so no one should be surprised it has some extra expenses
Good point, but this was a post by an American listing what it would cost Americans.. I take it for face value considering the penalties that Mexico imposes on anyone bringing any type of firearm across the border. (Unless you are a US government then, you’re free to give anything to anybody, anywhere at anytime.). (As long as you are not a conservative0
Nope but we sure would appreciate a lower match fee instead of subsidizing a pointless prize table when we already showed up with what we have and need.
As for looking for targets and using a range finder as a match skill, I'll continue to sit that one out. Good thing I shot USPSA for 19 years so I learned what a fair set of rules and matches look like. I couldn't be more thankful for that, having shot all kinds of other sports.
Match fees don't go to support a prize table, as prizes are donated by sponsors and not purchased by MDs. The only exception I'm aware of are the few matches that pay out cash prizes to some of the top finishers, in which it's stated up front that a portion of the match fee goes to a jackpot.
The rules of NRL Hunter series matches, and most other find-range-engage format matches, are completely fair. The fact that you don't see the value in learning to find or range targets for yourself under pressure doesn't mean that the format is unfair or lacking in value for other people. It just reflects your preference for square range games where everything is spelled out for you ahead of time. And those types of games are perfectly fine and often of great value in their own right.
If anything, as others have stated, these matches have value beyond being a competition, as they provide guys with a venue to test themselves as hunters without the need to kill or clean an animal. A typical NRL Hunter match will provide 16-20 mock hunting scenarios over the course of a weekend, with each being an opportunity for a guy to practice the shooting portion of a hunt and to vet his rifle system and support gear without the worry of wounding an animal because of an error in wind, range, or marksmanship.
