Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?

[Casey Simpson]

Hi,

So in light of some of the other threads in regards to discussions of the precision shooting organizations, rules, procedures, methods, etc etc that are clearly NOT sitting well within the community members here.

I would like to task this thread to be a community talent pool to discuss the real importance of growing the sport.

My opinion is that we must put the growth of the sport over the growth of the industry. My thought process behind that is with growth of the sport the industry grows organically as to organizations pushing for growth of the industry without providing a way to grow the sport actually can cause the growth to become stagnant.

DISCLAIMER: I do not have the answers to some of the recently discussed issues but I am here to say that even though my livelihood is the industry....we need growth of the sport first and foremost.

Individual match participants must be increased in a manner to tap into the common man, woman, girl, transgender, etc etc without them being 1 match and out participants because of perceived equipment cost, perceived "I do not fit in", perceived "it doesn't make me a better shooter/hunter", etc etc.

It may come off as kind of opposite mentality and business model as some of my other discussions on my Hoplite Arms thread in which that business model is to go straight to the top in regards to top tier price and market but that really is different than what IMO needs to be done in regards to growing the precision rifle competition base. By growing that precision rifle competition base the law of numbers will grow some of them into big dollar purchasers.

From my side of the house I am requesting us industry folks get behind growing the sports base ahead of growing our industry market.
Not everyone is going to afford a Hoplite Arms rifle and that is ok with me but that does not mean I do not want to support growing the number of shooters that partake in a precision rifle match.
Not everyone is going to afford a RRS Tripod and head but that does not mean they should be discarded in regards to their importance of overall firearm ownership.

Sincerely,
Theis

I have competed with the rifle for forty-five years. My last game was field precision (some friends and I were gears in a big wheel who helped start PRS)

Here is my opinion. Stop offering expensive gear as prizes. It takes the fun out of the sport. It aggravates greed. It tempts marksmen to cheat, bribe, etc. there’s another problem with awarding expensive gear.

The marksmen with the most available time to drill, place high, and make the circuit. The same ones always win the gun. An expensive one! They’re getting a free gun to start with by the custom builders. The winner then will sell the prize gun for five thousand dollars ($5000 DOLLARS). The builder is happy with another gun out on the line. The builder is happy to donate the gun to the prize table. It’s a cycle.
Now, I’m referring to PRS matches.

Break it down: sporter rifle, light, heavy custom, caliber, optic; air gun: $200 air gun, $500 air gun…… (leave out pistol. People shoot themselves the the leg).

Pistol and revolver matches.
Do these too. New. Vintage. Separately.

Award a “certified true and correct” copy of the match results, by rank, by marksmen’s names. Take away the money and the politics.

 

[Casey Simpson]

I would have to take a few extra minutes to read through this, but initially:

The simple way I looked at a newer shooter vs a more seasoned shooter in terms of match course of fire was two ways, time and target size.

If the Pro Level shooter is doing 90 seconds, the new shooter should start about 2 to 3 minutes depending on the amount of movement from prop to prop. Speed can and does cause NDs with shooters, so slowing them down is a good thing. Maybe mix in 2 out of 20 stages that are 90 seconds, but that is a different animal, that is in regards to MD and Design. The Series and MD should be working hand in glove on the COF. The MD is representing the series, so helping and brainstorming to mix it up would be key in my mind.

Next is the easy way I see to fix this, Target size, if you do a 45% IPSC for a pro-sized target, do a 66% for the AM. If the target is 66% for the Pro do Full Sized for the AM. You basically have two targets at the stage, one big, one small. Mark them different and let the newer shooter use those. Part of the complaint is, Targets are expensive, if you want to host a match, there has to be certain sacrifices, like paying for a proper target package, if you can't afford it and the Series wants you to participate, they need to ship the targets to you. There should be certain standards with the COF, but also you want to give the MD the ability to highlight their skills. We always had 2 Highlight Stages, maybe it was the Helicopter, maybe it was a long stage that combined a bunch of movement with every element mixed in, the Handgun Drag. Then you look at staple stages, etc.

Growing the sport is about opening the door, we grew the sport, fast too. We did it with 2 matches a year and made those matches a destination. We were sold out in 1 Minute, we had waiting lists, and people attended for a full week in order to get training too. I set the $300 standard for match fees, I was the first to go over $250, because I could. Now that model has changed it should be lower cost.

Even like I mentioned in the podcast, Shadow Competitors, charge them 1/2 the price with no score. Show up, pay 1/2 learn something, no risk, no score sheet, keep your own score, but you can learn.

It's not hard, but you have to be willing to make sacrifices too. That is the missing element, someone asked in the other thread are these problems Ego or Lazy, to me, it's both. They are equally egotistical and lazy, when you consider what we "don't" see from them, it's total laziness.

Of course. But these discussions open awareness. Some variances in PRS, or not, marksmen and those working to be one, will gang- up and participate in an official match, or as friends and their friends, shooting across a field on a Sunday afternoon, and countless club matches, come out of these discussions.
So, the thread is not a waste of time.

Good hearing from you, Frank. I’m away from the sport in criminal trials so my wagon is loaded.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

My thought about sponsorship and professionalism. Sponsors need to have their products seen in a good if not great light. Used by men and women who win events. They need men and women who have dedicated themselves to the point that they have no real time to have a career path outside of the sport itself, thus professionalism.

In all modern sports there is a boom and then a bust. And like it or not, its going to happen to Precision Rifle. As the sport goes along, interest wanes. If interest drops too far, the sponsor will stop building the equipment needed to continue the sport. That's a big issue. But a lot of the '"bust" can be mitigated by keeping the many companies and media interested in the sport. How? First are the pros, men and women, who battle for the top spot, week after week. They build an interest base. A base that the media wants to feature...

So, the media by featuring the sport keeps it alive as long as the companies continue to profit from the sport, profit which is brought on by new shooters continuing to come into the sport and those new shooters first learned about the sport by seeing it featured on the media. Its a circle, break the circle and it dies.

It doesn't hurt that many. of the pros also make part of their living teaching the sport to others. and the circle continues.

Last word, before anyone cranks up about its the man not the gun or the equipment. Remember; quoting "the Right Stuff".

"No bucks; No Buck Rogers."

 

[Rob01]

You can probably count the “professional” shooters in PRS by your definition on one hand and not use all the fingers. Lol

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

You can probably count the “professional” shooters in PRS by your definition on one hand and not use all the fingers. Lol

True, folks who live by prs alone. but lots of folks take money and equipment and depend on that to keep on in the sport.

 

[Rob01]

True, folks who live by prs alone. but lots of folks take money and equipment and depend on that to keep on in the sport.

No you said that have no career path outside the sport. Most all have a career outside the sport.

 

[Kfive73]

Create a “limited” division. Limited to 2 bags max, no wind meter, no rear tripod support, no bags that attach to the rifle. Seems like a lot of hits are made using “niche” gear

 

[hlee]

True, folks who live by prs alone. but lots of folks take money and equipment and depend on that to keep on in the sport.

Industry subsidized hobby…

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I need to remind everyone that the fun of shooting steel is shooting steel, because shooting dirt is pretty much pointless because dirt is already pretty much dead. (Damned good pun I might add)

Anything that will make the sport harder for new people is going to do a lot towards killing the Future of the sport. it may be a “blast” to shoot a six or seven out of a hundred the first match or two, but after a while, if being able to improve is not reasonable, shooting a seven while the cool kids are scoring 70 and 80 percent gets real old real fast.

(Shooting dirt - Pointless - Unless making a wind call; which I too have done)

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Create a “limited” division. Limited to 2 bags max, no wind meter, no rear tripod support, no bags that attach to the rifle. Seems like a lot of hits are made using “niche” gear

Calling a wind meter "niche gear" when talking about precision rifle shooting....lol

 

[Kfive73]

Calling a wind meter "niche gear" when talking about precision rifle shooting....lol

I don’t think wind meter is “niche.” But I have seen a stage that was challenging everyone’s stability. Then a guy whipped out that Wiebad staircase looking bag, straddled it, and I think cleaned the stage. That’s the kind of “niche” I have in mind

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Good hearing from you, Frank. I’m away from the sport in criminal trials so my wagon is loaded.

I hope you are found not guilty.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

I don’t think wind meter is “niche.” But I have seen a stage that was challenging everyone’s stability. Then a guy whipped out that Wiebad staircase looking bag, straddled it, and I think cleaned the stage. That’s the kind of “niche” I have in mind

Then why in the world did you include a wind meter in the list of gear that you wanted excluded from your proposed limited class?

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

I don’t think wind meter is “niche.” But I have seen a stage that was challenging everyone’s stability. Then a guy whipped out that Wiebad staircase looking bag, straddled it, and I think cleaned the stage. That’s the kind of “niche” I have in mind

Rush Stair Bag

 

[Kfive73]

Then why in the world did you include a wind meter in the list of gear that you wanted excluded from your proposed limited class?

Try to push people to just read wind by eye. I know the target wind can be different than firing line wind, but a wind meter sure is helpful

 

[lash]

it may be a “blast” to shoot a six or seven out of a hundred the first match or two, but after a while, if being able to improve is not reasonable, shooting a seven while the cool kids are scoring 70 and 80 percent gets real old real fast.

No match is like this. You’re making up stuff to make a weak point look stronger.

 

[R_A_W]

Try to push people to just read wind by eye. I know the target wind can be different than firing line wind, but a wind meter sure is helpful

You seem aware that being competitive in PRS requires more than just measuring wind speed & direction at the shooter's position. Kestrels typically only provide a point of reference. FWIW, no one is stopping you... I've shot my last 6-8 PRS matches in NTx & OK without measuring wind once & my wind reading abilities have improved drastically.

There are a lot of other considerations, but prohibiting Kestrels or creating a "Kestrelless class" is really outside the scope of PRS anyways.

 

[Fig]

Guess what? The people who win don't win because of gamer shit. They win because they practice.

The ones, like me, who are middle of the pack practice AT THE MATCH. I don't have time to go practice, and because of that I know I'm not going to win a national match, QED. You're just not going to get really good without a lot of practice, period. I've been to a couple of clinics, and those made a big difference, but nothing is going to get you to the podium but practice and hard work. Yes, I do better every year, but it's because of the matches I went to where I actually practiced. That's a lot more expensive than going to a range where you can stretch it out, and some of us don't have that locally. If you've got a range where you can bang steel out to 1000 or 1200 yer fukin lucky.

The gamer shit is going to help someone who already shoots really well get another impact or two on a 200 round course of fire. It's really only for the guys who already can do it in their sleep with just a game changer. It's not worth bothering for most of us. Buy it if it makes you happy, but I've seen guys easily clean a tripod stage throwing their bag on the tripod and not using the arca rail, because they practice with the bag and are best with it.

You can argue about the prizes all you want, but eventually it will get to a level where there's real money, and it will totally change, and you'll be on here talking about how great it was in the old days where it was just shooting gear and it wasn't so cutthroat.

Quite frankly, I just have a blast at matches even knowing I don't really have a shot to win. I also really enjoy getting squadded with a stud shooter who cleans stage after stage. I cheer harder for them than I would at a home football game. Most people who shoot the two day matches are passionate about it if not highly skilled. That would be me.

 

[lash]

Guess what? The people who win don't win because of gamer shit. They win because they practice.

The ones, like me, who are middle of the pack practice AT THE MATCH. I don't have time to go practice, and because of that I know I'm not going to win a national match, QED. You're just not going to get really good without a lot of practice, period. I've been to a couple of clinics, and those made a big difference, but nothing is going to get you to the podium but practice and hard work. Yes, I do better every year, but it's because of the matches I went to where I actually practiced. That's a lot more expensive than going to a range where you can stretch it out, and some of us don't have that locally. If you've got a range where you can bang steel out to 1000 or 1200 yer fukin lucky.

The gamer shit is going to help someone who already shoots really well get another impact or two on a 200 round course of fire. It's really only for the guys who already can do it in their sleep with just a game changer. It's not worth bothering for most of us. Buy it if it makes you happy, but I've seen guys easily clean a tripod stage throwing their bag on the tripod and not using the arca rail, because they practice with the bag and are best with it.

You can argue about the prizes all you want, but eventually it will get to a level where there's real money, and it will totally change, and you'll be on here talking about how great it was in the old days where it was just shooting gear and it wasn't so cutthroat.

Quite frankly, I just have a blast at matches even knowing I don't really have a shot to win. I also really enjoy getting squadded with a stud shooter who cleans stage after stage. I cheer harder for them than I would at a home football game. Most people who shoot the two day matches are passionate about it if not highly skilled. That would be me.

Excellent post that reflects the reality of what is, not the fantasy where everybody gets to take home some awesome trinket just for attending.

I, like you, do not get to practice much at all except at my matches that I’m running. So not the most conducive environment for focus and success. As such, I accept the low to mid placements I end up at because I Know that I don’t practice and therefore don’t have unrealistic expectations.

All those bitching about gear and wanting to change this or that just because it doesn’t suit their situation are pissing up a rope.

You want to do better? Practice at being better. Practice often and with purpose. Go compete with your one bag, yes, I said one bag, and go with the intent to improve. Then practice what you sucked at until you don’t suck at it anymore.

Go to clinics where people actually watch what you are doing and know how to correct you and make you better. Leave your ego at home. Then practice what you learned until it’s second nature.

 

[Rob01]

Guess what? The people who win don't win because of gamer shit. They win because they practice.

The ones, like me, who are middle of the pack practice AT THE MATCH. I don't have time to go practice, and because of that I know I'm not going to win a national match, QED. You're just not going to get really good without a lot of practice, period. I've been to a couple of clinics, and those made a big difference, but nothing is going to get you to the podium but practice and hard work. Yes, I do better every year, but it's because of the matches I went to where I actually practiced. That's a lot more expensive than going to a range where you can stretch it out, and some of us don't have that locally. If you've got a range where you can bang steel out to 1000 or 1200 yer fukin lucky.

The gamer shit is going to help someone who already shoots really well get another impact or two on a 200 round course of fire. It's really only for the guys who already can do it in their sleep with just a game changer. It's not worth bothering for most of us. Buy it if it makes you happy, but I've seen guys easily clean a tripod stage throwing their bag on the tripod and not using the arca rail, because they practice with the bag and are best with it.

You can argue about the prizes all you want, but eventually it will get to a level where there's real money, and it will totally change, and you'll be on here talking about how great it was in the old days where it was just shooting gear and it wasn't so cutthroat.

Quite frankly, I just have a blast at matches even knowing I don't really have a shot to win. I also really enjoy getting squadded with a stud shooter who cleans stage after stage. I cheer harder for them than I would at a home football game. Most people who shoot the two day matches are passionate about it if not highly skilled. That would be me.

Yup. That is the bottom line. Practice is what wins matches. I know as I used to practice 3 days a week and I was always top 10 if not top 5 and won some 2-3 day matches back before PRS was even a thing but then as I got older and things changed I did not practice as much and I felt the difference and saw it on my placement. I still had fun and that is why I still shoot matches. If you aren't having fun then you shouldn't do it. It's a hobby.

 

[lash]

Yup. That is the bottom line. Practice is what wins matches. I know as I used to practice 3 days a week and I was always top 10 if not top 5 and won some 2-3 day matches back before PRS was even a thing but then as I got older and things changed I did not practice as much and I felt the difference and saw it on my placement. I still had fun and that is why I still shoot matches. If you aren't having fun then you shouldn't do it. It's a hobby.

Bingo!

 

[Fig]

Anyone else feel dirty posting in a thread "Theis" started?

 

[lash]

Anyone else feel dirty posting in a thread "Theis" started?

Yes, but sometimes I like it a little dirty…

 

[Rob01]

Anyone else feel dirty posting in a thread "Theis" started?

Not as dirty as the guy who quoted his 4 year old original post. LOL

 

[Kfive73]

My thought process behind limited gear really isn’t about winning at a class, but more about practical improvement as a shooter.

I think a lot of newcomers are hunters who want to improve their abilities. Limited gear would better mirror what you could bring into the field. But also have a real production class… Remingtons, tikkas, bergaras, etc. not the MPAs and GAPs. I think it would be more attractive to a guy showing up his first day and shooting against people with the same limitations in equipment that he has and not think “holy crap this is going to get expensive fast” when he sees all the high end stuff.

I don’t think a lot of guys show up thinking they will win anything (myself included) but it is fun to see where you stack up against others and monitor how you’re improving from match to match. If that makes any sense.

Also, PRS seems to be much more accessible than NRL in many places…. So you’re getting the somewhat practical situation shooting experience without traveling as far

 

[hlee]

My thought process behind limited gear really isn’t about winning at a class, but more about practical improvement as a shooter.

I think a lot of newcomers are hunters who want to improve their abilities.

Ban razers, quads, carts, and any other motorized/wheeled vehicle from the venue. Make the parking lot 5 miles from the pre-match brief. Require a minimum of 1km hike between stages. Make every stage a stalk. More points for shots taken from closer range.

Or, accept PRS for what it is and have fun shooting…

 

[Fig]

Also, PRS seems to be much more accessible than NRL in many places…. So you’re getting the somewhat practical situation shooting experience without traveling as far

That has not been my experience AT ALL. PRS requires two or three golf course sized pieces of land to run. NRL22 can easily be run on a 100yd square range if they use the A. course of fire. Just about any range can host an NRL22 match. There are only two or three in my whole state that are big enough to host a PRS field match.

 

[KnowNothing256]

That has not been my experience AT ALL. PRS requires two or three golf course sized pieces of land to run. NRL22 can easily be run on a 100yd square range if they use the A. course of fire. Just about any range can host an NRL22 match. There are only two or three in my whole state that are big enough to host a PRS field match.

He might’ve meant NRL, not NRL22. He didn’t say NRL22, anyway.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Yup. That is the bottom line. Practice is what wins matches. I know as I used to practice 3 days a week and I was always top 10 if not top 5 and won some 2-3 day matches back before PRS was even a thing but then as I got older and things changed I did not practice as much and I felt the difference and saw it on my placement. I still had fun and that is why I still shoot matches. If you aren't having fun then you shouldn't do it. It's a hobby.

What did you do when you practiced 3 days a week?

Shoot something resembling a real match?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

My thought process behind limited gear really isn’t about winning at a class, but more about practical improvement as a shooter.

I think a lot of newcomers are hunters who want to improve their abilities. Limited gear would better mirror what you could bring into the field. But also have a real production class… Remingtons, tikkas, bergaras, etc. not the MPAs and GAPs. I think it would be more attractive to a guy showing up his first day and shooting against people with the same limitations in equipment that he has and not think “holy crap this is going to get expensive fast” when he sees all the high end stuff.

I don’t think a lot of guys show up thinking they will win anything (myself included) but it is fun to see where you stack up against others and monitor how you’re improving from match to match. If that makes any sense.

Also, PRS seems to be much more accessible than NRL in many places…. So you’re getting the somewhat practical situation shooting experience without traveling as far

I'm guessing it would fall on the shoulders of (mostly volunteer) ROs to enforce these gear limits (no more than X number of bags, no tripods, no wind meters, etc.). You'd add the burden of having to know what class a shooter was in, having to determine if the gear they're using is allowed (and then potentially calling them out if something is amiss) to everything else the RO is already doing. And no RO has time to watch everyone in the squad to see if someone is illegally using a wind meter while prepping their dope for the stage, or to check to see if a guy illegally borrowed a bag from his buddy for this particular stage.

As for "holy crap this is going to get expensive fast," welcome to precision rifle shooting. When you consider the cost of ammo, match fees, and travel alone, the gear you're worried about (including the difference in cost between a Bergara and an MPA production rifle) is often only a small portion of what it costs to reach a level of basic competency. Even more so if someone actually commits to regular practice and wants to be competitive. The sooner folks realized how expensive participation can be, the better. I've seen too many guys drop several grand building a rifle to only afterwards realize they can't actually afford to play the game they built it for, and then end up dumping everything at a loss.

And just to beat on the Kestrel thing a bit more, the surest way to discourage a newcomer is to make a rule that prevents them from using a piece of gear that will actually help them learn to call wind and get more hits on target.

 

[Rob01]

What did you do when you practiced 3 days a week?

Shoot something resembling a real match?

Fundamentals. Shooting off props, sling shooting, hold overs and unders, moving from position to position and getting in solid shooting positions etc. Do one of two for a few hours each day.

 

[Fig]

National Rugby League?

 

[ECK]

If PRS would offer staff match option for RO’s I would definitely sign up to RO (and shoot more 2-day matches). I’ve been working USPSA matches for years, shoot early with staff, then work the main match (Section, Area and National matches). This year I started volunteering as RO for 2-day NRLH matches and had a great time shooting on day 1 and worked a stage day 2 & 3. Both times the weather on staff day was worse than main match day, but to me that’s just how the cookie crumbles.

 

[308pirate]

I'm guessing it would fall on the shoulders of (mostly volunteer) ROs to enforce these gear limits (no more than X number of bags, no tripods, no wind meters, etc.). You'd add the burden of having to know what class a shooter was in, having to determine if the gear they're using is allowed (and then potentially calling them out if something is amiss) to everything else the RO is already doing. And no RO has time to watch everyone in the squad to see if someone is illegally using a wind meter while prepping their dope for the stage, or to check to see if a guy illegally borrowed a bag from his buddy for this particular stage.

You mean like it's been done in USPSA for decades?

 

[Tx_Aggie]

You mean like it's been done in USPSA for decades?

The RO culture in USPSA is the best & most professional in the action shooting sports.

At the moment PRS doesn't have any sort of formal RO training or certification process, and most matches rely on volunteers of varying experience, some of whom don't shoot or at least don't shoot often or at a high level. At the last 2 day match I RO'd, I found myself paired each day with guys who had never shot a match of any sort and were volunteering because of an interest in learning more about the game. And we were short handed enough we were glad to have them. I'm sure a lot of folks would love to see some sort of standardization of RO training in PRS, particularly the more serious shooters, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Best case, usually at a Pro series match, you'll have 2 (or occasionally 3) ROs on a stage. One running the timer and ensuring the shooter stays safe, and the other spotting, keeping score, and calling the shooter order. If there's a third person they'll be calling roll and backing the spotter up on score keeping. With only 2 ROs, both are focused on running the stage and neither have the time to watch folks who aren't shooting to see if, as in the example above, someone is sneaking off to prep their dope in a way that some new rule has made forbidden.

Club matches often have one RO running the stage, with shooters expected to pitch in and help by either spotting and scoring their squad mates, or taking a turn running the timer & shooter. And a lot of club matches will still just ask squads to self RO, often with a more experienced shooter playing squad mom.

As for the gear thing, the only current gear restrictions in PRS are either caliber related (Tac class) or production class. And most production class rifles look just like open rifles at this point. Usually no one tells the RO what division or class they're shooting, because it's irrelevant in how the stage is run.

I suppose MDs could mark all of the "limited class" shooters on score sheets (or by marking their rifles somehow) so that RO's could enforce whatever arbitrary gear restrictions went along with that, but it would still be an additional burden on volunteers in a world where it's already often difficult for an MD to find the bare minimum number of RO's need to run a match.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

If PRS would offer staff match option for RO’s I would definitely sign up to RO (and shoot more 2-day matches). I’ve been working USPSA matches for years, shoot early with staff, then work the main match (Section, Area and National matches). This year I started volunteering as RO for 2-day NRLH matches and had a great time shooting on day 1 and worked a stage day 2 & 3. Both times the weather on staff day was worse than main match day, but to me that’s just how the cookie crumbles.

It would be great if PRS allowed RO's the same opportunity to shoot as NRL Hunter. Even if they were limited to a separate RO specific prize table.

 

[308pirate]

The RO culture in USPSA is the best & most professional in the action shooting sports.

At the moment PRS doesn't have any sort of formal RO training or certification process, and most matches rely on volunteers of varying experience, some of whom don't shoot or at least don't shoot often or at a high level. At the last 2 day match I RO'd, I found myself paired each day with guys who had never shot a match of any sort and were volunteering because of an interest in learning more about the game. And we were short handed enough we were glad to have them. I'm sure a lot of folks would love to see some sort of standardization of RO training in PRS, particularly the more serious shooters, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Best case, usually at a Pro series match, you'll have 2 (or occasionally 3) ROs on a stage. One running the timer and ensuring the shooter stays safe, and the other spotting, keeping score, and calling the shooter order. If there's a third person they'll be calling roll and backing the spotter up on score keeping. With only 2 ROs, both are focused on running the stage and neither have the time to watch folks who aren't shooting to see if, as in the example above, someone is sneaking off to prep their dope in a way that some new rule has made forbidden.

Club matches often have one RO running the stage, with shooters expected to pitch in and help by either spotting and scoring their squad mates, or taking a turn running the timer & shooter. And a lot of club matches will still just ask squads to self RO, often with a more experienced shooter playing squad mom.

As for the gear thing, the only current gear restrictions in PRS are either caliber related (Tac class) or production class. And most production class rifles look just like open rifles at this point. Usually no one tells the RO what division or class they're shooting, because it's irrelevant in how the stage is run.

I suppose MDs could mark all of the "limited class" shooters on score sheets (or by marking their rifles somehow) so that RO's could enforce whatever arbitrary gear restrictions went along with that, but it would still be an additional burden on volunteers in a world where it's already often difficult for an MD to find the bare minimum number of RO's need to run a match.

USPSA ROs are all volunteers.

What you describe is very similar to how USPSA matches run. Level 1 (club) matches are run either by certified ROs or by knowledgeable shooters who aren't certified both are part of the squad. Level 2 matches have dedicated certified ROs who shoot the match before the rest of the competitors do.

The difference is as you say in the training and that's the difference between a member run non profit and a business.

 

[308pirate]

It would be great if PRS allowed RO's the same opportunity to shoot as NRL Hunter. Even if they were limited to a separate RO specific prize table.

Wait ROs can't shoot PRS matches?

LOL fuck that.

 

[b6graham]

Wait ROs can't shoot PRS matches?

LOL fuck that.

pro matches no they don't. local yes.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

Fundamentals. Shooting off props, sling shooting, hold overs and unders, moving from position to position and getting in solid shooting positions etc. Do one of two for a few hours each day.

Thanks for responding. Was your practice shooting off props done at PRS type distances? Do you have those kind of extended ranges for practice, or were you doing some sort of practice at shorter distances?

Let me explain why I am asking. I want to practice more often, but long distance ranges are a long drive away for me, basically making practice unavailable except when I can take an entire day to do so due to the drive each way.

Anybody can practice at home with props made at home and no shooting. I can actually practice at home on props and shoot at 100 yards, but I do not know how to make that work with the stuff you were doing, for example, hold overs and unders.

 

[ECK]

It would be great if PRS allowed RO's the same opportunity to shoot as NRL Hunter. Even if they were limited to a separate RO specific prize table.

In NRLH the score sheet (and tablet) tells the RO what division they are in. So if they are in Skills the RO can offer them assistance, usually help to find the damn targets. Everything else for most part they just have to look for the colored zipties to show the shooter passed equipment check and are good to go, and make sure they have their tripod folded up and stowed before they cross the finish line.

USPSA same deal. We know what division the shooter is in based on the tablet. So for certain divisions we know to count # of rounds before the reload (i.e. Prod and L-10). But it’s pretty liberal when it comes to most other divisions, and the equipment check at Chrono stage usually catches anybody overweight, too big to fit in box or mag gauge, etc. So RO’s just need to look out for a few things with regard to gear and gear placement. But you’re right, USPSA has a well established rulebook and training of ROs/CROs with continual learning opportunities after you get certified.

From what I’ve seen, PRS is pretty much like shooting Open division in USPSA. If you can lug it to the line, G2G. My first PRS match I worked as RO I read the rulebook the night before (yeah, I am that guy). But back to my original point, if PRS would allow RO’s an opportunity to shoot the match on day before, the MDs would probably be able to recruit more experienced shooters as RO. Not throwing rocks, I like PRS, but just sayin’ since this is a thread about what you would like to see changed.

Personally don’t care that much about the prize table, tho I am appreciative of the generosity of the sponsors. I go to matches for the stages, not the prize table.

 

[Rob01]

Thanks for responding. Was your practice shooting off props done at PRS type distances? Do you have those kind of extended ranges for practice, or were you doing some sort of practice at shorter distances?

Let me explain why I am asking. I want to practice more often, but long distance ranges are a long drive away for me, basically making practice unavailable except when I can take an entire day to do so due to the drive each way.

Anybody can practice at home with props made at home and no shooting. I can actually practice at home on props and shoot at 100 yards, but I do not know how to make that work with the stuff you were doing, for example, hold overs and unders.

When I was doing that I only had a 400 yard max range with steel at only 400 yards and for a couple years only 100 yards with no steel as they shut my rifle range down because they said rounds went over the trees and hit a house.

Those couple years of 100 yards only were a couple of my better years too. I would use paper small targets and act like they were at farther ranges as the smaller targets would look like they would at longer ranges. You still can practice all the stuff at the firing line like moving on a prop and setting up and getting in positions etc. Shooting at long range is not needed to get good practice.

For hold overs and unders you just dial up or down on the scope and hold the opposite. Just gets you used to holding somewhere on the reticle other than the center. Granted only doing this at 100 isn't the best as having a couple hundred yards and holding between yardages but you can also make up targets to hang at 100 that will simulate that as well.

If you can move through the props and get stable and take the shot then the only thing you need to worry about when taking the longer shots is wind.

 

[308pirate]

pro matches no they don't. local yes.

Still bullshit

 

[Tx_Aggie]

Wait ROs can't shoot PRS matches?

LOL fuck that.

Yep.

I'd say the two most important ways that ROing differs between USPSA and PRS are that PRS doesn't allow ROs to shoot the match beforehand, and the complete lack of any sort of RO training, much less certification.

Some matches have starting doing raffles to raise some funds to pay ROs for their time. But really, letting guys shoot on Thurs/Fri would be a bigger incentive, and would go a long way towards developing enough of a core of returning ROs to make training and certification a thing.

In contrast, NRL Hunter has no trouble finding plenty of high quality ROs because they do allow them to shoot the match on Friday.

 

[hlee]

IDK. I’ve ROd a couple of national PRS matches, but only because they were put on by the guys running the local monthly match. Shooting on Thursday or Friday would mean taking days off of work. How many guys are actually traveling flights/hotels/etc just to volunteer RO a PRS event?

 

[lash]

Yep.

I'd say the two most important ways that ROing differs between USPSA and PRS doesn't allow ROs to shoot the match beforehand, and the complete lack of any sort of RO training, much less certification.

Some matches have starting doing raffles to raise some funds to pay ROs for their time. But really, letting guys shoot on Thurs/Fri would be a bigger incentive, and would go a long way towards developing enough of a core of returning ROs to make training and certification a thing.

In contrast, NRL Hunter has no trouble finding plenty of high quality ROs because they do allow them to shoot the match on Friday.

You do sound more than a bit biased towards NRL, but I understand.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

IDK. I’ve ROd a couple of national PRS matches, but only because they were put on by the guys running the local monthly match. Shooting on Thursday or Friday would mean taking days off of work. How many guys are actually traveling flights/hotels/etc just to volunteer RO a PRS event?

PRS? Probably close to zero. But it’s pretty common for NRL Hunter where ROs get scored alongside those who paid to shoot the match and walk the same prize table. The trade off is ROs shoot the entire 2-day course of fire on Friday and then work Sat & Sun.

I think it’s also pretty common at the larger uspsa and multi-gun matches for ROs to shoot for free on Fri (& maybe Thurs), then work Sat & Sun. I’m not sure if they have separate awards & prize tables for ROs or not.

 

[cas6969]

You can probably count the “professional” shooters in PRS by your definition on one hand and not use all the fingers. Lol

Women don't do porn to make lots of money. They do porn to get famous, to make lots of money stripping.
People don't shoot competitively to make money, they do it to become "famous", then make money with endorsement deals, an industry job, or in the teaching/training field.





Bottom line is they're all whores.

 

[Tx_Aggie]

You do sound more than a bit biased towards NRL, but I understand.

I enjoy shooting both (with a preference for Hunter). I’ve only worked as an RO for PRS matches, but have some buddies who have worked as ROs in NRL and enjoyed it.

 

[Rob01]

Women don't do porn to make lots of money. They do porn to get famous, to make lots of money stripping.
People don't shoot competitively to make money, they do it to become "famous", then make money with endorsement deals, an industry job, or in the teaching/training field.





Bottom line is they're all whores.

But they aren't professional shooters in that is their career. Lots of guys who use it as you mentioned to make some extra money though. Has been for years.