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Rifle Competition Events What would you change or do differently with current competitions/organizations?
- Thread starter THEIS
- Start date
Lots of guys who use it as you mentioned to make some extra money though. Has been for years.
Sounds like Rimfire is the cost effective solution for limited long range access.
It could be but depends if you want to learn the recoil as well of the centerfire. My main practice rifle has always been a .308 just for that reason. Like swinging a heavy bat.
Long range access and ammo cost make the bulk of my practice Rimfire. I bring out the 300PRC to make sure I remember how noisy it is. Recoil matters, but the first 45 years of my life an unbraked 30-06 was what every one I know used.
Yeah when I started the sport no one had brakes on their rifles in matches. Mostly .308s but some others. Rimfire is good to practice with but the rifle needs to be close to your centerfire to get the same feel in setting up positions.
All USPSA level 2 and 3 matches provide free lodging and some meals. USPSA nationals also provide a travel stipend.
Staff shooting days during level 2 and 3 matches are invariably Thursday and Friday, and sometimes Wednesday. Matches don't have an RO shortage
Probably none right now since they don't get to compete, evidently.
I'm going to repeat this for the millionth time: all of this has been figured out in one form or another by pretty much all shooting sports that existed before PRS.
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Depends on the match and MD. Quite a few of the USPSA Lvl 2 on up matches I goto have a prize table of some sort. Some you walk in order of finish, others do it via random draw. I have shot at some USPSA matches that give away cash for stage winner or top 3. Like I said, depends on the match and MD.
USPSA Staff comp package varies by match and MD.
Lvl 2 Sectional or State match staff is usually on their own for lodging but you get match fee comped and usually some swag. A lot of lvl 2’s rely on local folks to be staff but there are some notable large Lvl 2’s with 200-300 competitors that take in enough cash from registration and sponsorship to mimic staff comp package for Lvl 3 (Area = Regional) match.
Lvl 3: Hotel stipend is common, or seeing more MDs just give out a $300 cash package to staff. Some staff will pool their stipend on a VRBO. Or if local, it’s an extra payday for gas and whatnot. Plus you get your match fee comp’d.
Lvl 4 (USPSA Nationals): they provide a free hotel room (gotta share with somebody), a $25/day per diem for dinner (breakfast at hotel, lunch provided at range), and up to $375 travel stipend. If Nats is within driving distance I can usually do it with no out of pocket expense. If I have to fly and rent a car (carpool w/ other staff) then the staff comp package doesn’t quite cover my costs -but when you factor in the comp’d match fee (~$400) you’re definitely ahead of where you’d be if you were paying your own way as a regular competitor. Just gotta trade sweat-equity for cost savings.
PRS: I worked a 2-day PRS match that my local club was hosting, to help them out. They fed me and paid me to work for two-days. I would have gladly traded the $ for ability to shoot the day before as Staff, but the way the stages were setup that wouldn’t have been possible. Stages 1-10 were shot on Day 1, then reconfigured that evening for Day 2 as 11-20. So best staff could do would be to shoot stages 1-10. Not sure if a lot of 2-day matches are like that, prob depends on the size of the range.
NRLH: The two matches I worked as staff they didn’t pay us anything but we got to camp at the match location for free, comp’d match fee, shot all stages the day before, they fed us lunch each day, and we got to walk prize table in order of finish. Also got some swag for working. One of the matches raffled off a rifle, and the proceeds went to the Staff as a modest payout to cover expenses like gas. I’m good with that model for staff tho I will say shooting 18-22 stages in one day is mentally tiring.
NRLH: The two matches I worked as staff they didn’t pay us anything but we got to camp at the match location for free, comp’d match fee, shot all stages the day before, they fed us lunch each day, and we got to walk prize table in order of finish. Also got some swag for working. One of the matches raffled off a rifle, and the proceeds went to the Staff as a modest payout to cover expenses like gas. I’m good with that model for staff tho I will say shooting 18-22 stages in one day is mentally tiring.
I built a barricade and keep it in my backyard. Then using some math I printed targets on sheets of paper, water proofed them, and hung them up on a tree about 40-50yds away. The target sizes are at a ratio to appear the size they would be at whichever distance 400, 600, 700 etc. You can make different targets and sizes, then use a random generator on excel or the interwebs to create a mock "stage". Make your own decision to dial or hold left/right wind to practice what holding .3 of wind looks like on your reticle and target. Dryfire does wonders for practice, don't pass it up.
PS, just check your minium distance your parallax can focus at on your scope to make sure you have that distance available in the backyard. If you don't have that 30-50yd distance available, you could look into the DFAT kit from Rifles Only.com and dryfire in your home.
there’s quite a bit of USPSA that exists outside of Area 5 (like 7 other areas). So when you say there’s no prize money or prize tables in USPSA that’s not accurate. Locally? Sure, whatever. Other matches? Not the case.
Introduce a limited division in PRS. Limit caliber selection, and cost, but allow people to swap chassis. Not every manufacturer sells a production class gun so you're limited to maybe 4-5 options. If someone has a Tikka for example and throws it in a chassis they're definitely under the price tag, but now compete in Open. There needs to be something intermediate between Production and Open. Maybe even modifying what Production is as well. I'm sure this isn't a popular opinion seeing as how most view Production class as pointless anyway.
PRS and the industry have evolved to a point that cost doesn’t limit performance nearly as much as it once did. The top 10-30 will still win with a Tikka or Bergara in a chassis. Alwine is winning with a savage in a $500 MDT. Production was always a joke in my mind and is even more so now.
While I love the premium gear a guy who practices with a modern rifle system with a functional scope can compete. It’s not the gear these days in my opinion. So many good options.
If you want to create divisions. You leave open for everyone that wants to shoot BR cartridges in 20+ lb rifles. Nothing wrong with that, embrace that is what this sport evolved to. Then create a big gun division with a power factor and weight limit. Then add incentive to shoot that division. Those guys walk first or get more raffle tickets etc.
NRLH has a pretty good model in my opinion.
While I love the premium gear a guy who practices with a modern rifle system with a functional scope can compete. It’s not the gear these days in my opinion. So many good options.
If you want to create divisions. You leave open for everyone that wants to shoot BR cartridges in 20+ lb rifles. Nothing wrong with that, embrace that is what this sport evolved to. Then create a big gun division with a power factor and weight limit. Then add incentive to shoot that division. Those guys walk first or get more raffle tickets etc.
NRLH has a pretty good model in my opinion.
Skill is skill, I just see holes in the divisions. Like when Gas gun had 2 different classes. Now people are shooting 6GT from Seekins SP10s. I guess one could always go to gas gun specific matches but at least for me, I love shooting PRS more than other gas gun matches. I actually started shooting 5.56 gas gun, then 6Arc and now I'm shooting my second bolt gun match at the Grind. I think Production or Limited actually showcases skill more than hiding behind gear. Which I've seen a lot of people do.
Open is Open, do what you want. But having more variation in divisions I think would draw more people to the sport. Also more matches in more states as well but thats another topic.
Funny, Im reading another thread about this and the point is this. How does a new shooter even know what they need? Where to go? What caliber? What bag? You say just show up and shoot, but what fun is it when the course of fire is so hard because its tailored to open and pros? My first couple matches I was so discouraged, maybe hit 30/100. But guys in my squad with 25lb MPAs were cleaning every stage. Is it me? Is it my rifle? My gear? I think squadding also plays a lot into it too. I personally try to squad with gas gun and production or tac class guys. We all tend to shoot around the same and have fun helping each other out.
if you wanna play a gamer sport go see what your local gamers use
or look at the PRS 'Production' guns for sale
or look at the not-so-actually-truthful 'what the pros shoot' articles
or go to a forum like idk Snipers Hide
We recently restarted monthly matches at my local range here in central Nebraska. From 2018-2020 we hosted probably 20-25 matches. I got burnt out in 2020 with it, mainly because of the junk you still see at the majority of matches. Long story short, I recently stepped back into it because there was no monthly matches in Nebraska, and we had a 1200yd range that was basically rotting away those 4 years, with dudes who were asking me to make it happen again. I've really tried to put effort into figuring out ways and format to appeal to a wider crowd, as we've got a blend of pretty good PRS/NRLH shooters, pure hunters, and new guys in the area.
We're are doing a sort of beta test during our first 3 "reboot' matches with running an Open Division and "Practical" Division. The Open division is the basic run what you brung, no restrictions. The Practical Division is basically a 16lb and under no muzzle brake division, with a small point bonus for running a lighter weight rifle (basically 1 pt for every 2lbs under 16lbs). Since getting a solid format for the practical division nailed down, I've had more interest in it across the board from everyone. It's got guys thinking about ditching their 25lb rifles, which kind of surprised me.
My approach to restarting matches is to keep them short and sweet, 6-8 stages, $40-$50 entry, to treat them almost as glorified organized practice sessions. Run them monthly year around, with a season points chase building to a finale, with $20 of each entry fee from the season matches going back into a season points chase purse. Some of it is definitely the core group of dudes that are attending the matches, but I think we've found a pretty solid balance of competitive environment and place for new shooters to come out and start connecting the dots.
First let me say that the best thing you did was show up and shoot. I tell people the same thing, because I’ve had and still get guys that want to come and just watch maybe a and ask questions, but somehow never actually get around to finding out how to do it really.
Personally if you showed up and shot 30/100, you did as I would expect from somebody doing that very thing. Like I did uhm, about 14 years ago.
That was the point of saying that ego and its balance with knowledge is what holds most back. Take the first couple/few Local matches as learning how it really works, learning what gear seems to work, why people are shooting the caliber and rifle configuration they are, see the flow of the course of fire and learn ways to address diffferent situations and barricade/obstacle types.
Then spend some good money on some PRS courses that are specifically designed to show you how to accomplish them.
Sound like too much? Your choice, but consider the challenge of increasing your on the spot accuracy and muscle memory.
If you don’t make your living shooting Precision Rifle Matches, and you are not having fun shooting those matches, you’re in a wrong place.
It’s not the guns, it’s the people. I shot two matches this weekend. Folks, I am one month shy of 76 times around the sun, I am hardly competitive. But in both cases, the people I shot with were Ultra Friendly, Exceptionally helpful and most of all Tolerable. I had a great time. The Centerfire match was hardly a best for me, technically the second worst. But, I won a trophy. Not a physical trophy, the cool kids did that (including both second place and Ladies champions were in the squad I shot with on Sunday). My trophy, at 76, is shooting and hitting targets. Some of those targets were darned hard targets, some were 4 digits of yards away! Heck, as hot as it was on Saturday, I watched people quit and go home, either from the heat or the lack of success. But as I said, my trophy is getting to do it. And I’m No Quitter.
You know what, that is really what this is all about. Getting to do it. 99% of us are never going to be winners. But we can all strive to do our best, and our best is good enough.
28 out of 84 at the Rimfire Match on Sunday. Had a blast. Did you?
It’s not the guns, it’s the people. I shot two matches this weekend. Folks, I am one month shy of 76 times around the sun, I am hardly competitive. But in both cases, the people I shot with were Ultra Friendly, Exceptionally helpful and most of all Tolerable. I had a great time. The Centerfire match was hardly a best for me, technically the second worst. But, I won a trophy. Not a physical trophy, the cool kids did that (including both second place and Ladies champions were in the squad I shot with on Sunday). My trophy, at 76, is shooting and hitting targets. Some of those targets were darned hard targets, some were 4 digits of yards away! Heck, as hot as it was on Saturday, I watched people quit and go home, either from the heat or the lack of success. But as I said, my trophy is getting to do it. And I’m No Quitter.
You know what, that is really what this is all about. Getting to do it. 99% of us are never going to be winners. But we can all strive to do our best, and our best is good enough.
28 out of 84 at the Rimfire Match on Sunday. Had a blast. Did you?
This is almost exactly what I tell every new person that's inquiring about shooting matches with us. The first thing you need to do is to get out of your head. If you can safely handle a rifle just show up, and don't be an asshole. If you're new I will do everything I can to make the first impression of the game a good one but you will be drinking from a fire hose the first few matches and what gear you have or don't have isn't going to change that.
Kind of in that thought. I feel MD's at the club level, at least locally, seem to have really lost sight of the POV of the new shooter and have tried to turn club matches into "mini" national matches. Dudes want to talk about growing the sport & etc, but fail to create the setting in matches where new shooters & experienced shooters are both getting something from the match, but damn those prize tables were killer..........
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Because regional is where you cut your teeth and rimfire is where you can practice your skills for anywhere from $0.15-$0.30 per round.
I’ll say that you are not wrong. But I’m a nobody and do not court the sponsors, so no prize tables. It’s a local match. We used to do nothing other than read out your placing, but now we give plaques or recognition for top placement, egos being what they are these days.This is almost exactly what I tell every new person that's inquiring about shooting matches with us. The first thing you need to do is to get out of your head. If you can safely handle a rifle just show up, and don't be an asshole. If you're new I will do everything I can to make the first impression of the game a good one but you will be drinking from a fire hose the first few matches and what gear you have or don't have isn't going to change that.
Kind of in that thought. I feel MD's at the club level, at least locally, seem to have really lost sight of the POV of the new shooter and have tried to turn club matches into "mini" national matches. Dudes want to talk about growing the sport & etc, but fail to create the setting in matches where new shooters & experienced shooters are both getting something from the match, but damn those prize tables were killer..........
You want free shit? Pay for and go to the big matches and place where you do. You’ll get some shit.
Want to really learn? Choose wisely.
At the matches and facebook pages where the MD’s ask what kind of match the shooters want for the next match, it seems all the folks chime in that they want a harder match and the match directors are making it so. It does affect business. I took one look at the mandated course of fire at a NRL match, and packed my stuff. That match changed from NRL mandated course of fire to PRS, shot a match and enjoyed the heck out of it.Kind of in that thought. I feel MD's at the club level, at least locally, seem to have really lost sight of the POV of the new shooter and have tried to turn club matches into "mini" national matches. Dudes want to talk about growing the sport & etc, but fail to create the setting in matches where new shooters & experienced shooters are both getting something from the match, but damn those prize tables were killer..........
All that said, make ti too easy and it’s just as much a waste of time. I really think one day matches need to have about 35% easy stages, 30% of stages that push a weak shooter hard, and can be fun for a good shooter to see how fast he/she can get through it and 35% of the stages that push the cool kids to the absolute limit.
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I’ll say that you are not wrong. But I’m a nobody and do not court the sponsors, so no prize tables. It’s a local match. We used to do nothing other than read out your placing, but now we give plaques or recognition for top placement, egos being what they are these days.
You want free shit? Pay for and go to the big matches and place where you do. You’ll get some shit.
Want to really learn? Choose wisely.
I am relatively new and place quite poorly . . . but for what it is worth I enjoy the shooting and learning and improving. I do a little better each time, and I am perfectly content with shooting local matches and not worrying about all of that other stuff.
What was a pleasant surprise for me is how welcoming everybody is of a new shooter and how helpful they can all be once they see that you suck at PRS style shooting. LOL.
Hey, somebody has to place toward the bottom of the pack, even at the local events.
And that somebody is me! It dawned on me a while back to get my ego shut down. Decades ago, when I was young, our Regional Supervisor was a man named Terry McPhearson. Mr. Mac was a runner. However, in his late 60’s to early 70’s he always finished last. And he was proud of the fact that he could complete the course, and forget where he finished.
Even as short as 2017, I was not only classified as in the International Class, I could shoot International Class. That was then, this is 2018 and beyond. Broken hand and then a broken back and old age did my balance and ability to hold a firearm steady ended all that.
Still, I was upset when i shot poorly, I was used to shooting at the top of the class, I was one of the Cool Kids. But I wasn’t.
then it dawned on me. I shot a match and due to an error in scoring, I was placed in last place. I should have been next to last, but two points were lost when a computer went down. And it dawned on me, what did it matter if I finished in the bottom 50%, 25% or dead last. Having fun was important, I was never going to be THE winner again anyway…
AND, If I finished last, no one else would have to have that feeling. Something that really did not matter to me. I don’t aim to be the winner of the “Lanterne Rouge” but if I do win it, someone else can go home, feeling just a bit better.
its the sport of the game, not always having to be the “winner” of the game. Not a participation trophy, but a trophy that you did your best and your best is always a win.
Lanterne rouge - Wikipedia
Im not asking for advice on how to shoot matches. I've learned a lot in 2 years and was fortunate enough to work with a PRS Pro who guided me initially. Only thing holding me back is having moved from SE GA to Middle TN the frequency and distance to matches sucks. K&M being the only range in TN that holds matches and thats almost 3 hours one way. But my original comment was about expanding the PRS Divisions so.....
Figuring out ways to write a CoF and set up a match, so that the entire field of shooters can get something out of is what separates a good MD from just a dude hosting a match.
At the local level…. If I beat the crap out of a new shooter and throw him/her to the wolves, my experience has been they usually aren’t coming back for more. If I throw a bunch of 3 or 4 moa steel out there and host a meatball match, chances are that experienced shooter isn’t coming back. Either way it’s a loss for the match or either group of shooters.
There’s a balance there, and a good MD knows how to manage that. You need both groups of shooters to feed off each other.
My approach is writing a simple straightforward and practical CoF, where target size is usually gonna determine the difficulty of the stage. Make the matches about shooting and the practical application of marksmanship. So that experienced shooters are getting their reps in a match setting, and new shooters are exposed to how experienced shooters approach certain situations.
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I would also say the barrier is the learning curve at some events. There has been a arms race of upping the competitions to make them challenging where a new guy who enters us overwhelmed. It's extremely frustrating to go into events you have no way of preparing for and have never seen. One example is an action pistol stage with moving target.
I would not expect the higher level competitors to have to dumb it down, but I would like to run a stage over and over until I'm competent rather than touch it once a month and take baby steps. The static stages can be practiced solo, but entry is brutal for someone that has been shooting static targets.
At this point in time I think club matches are not only best bang for your buck but you get the relaxed and instructive environment a new guy needs. If your local club isn’t doing this for news guys someone needs to speak up.
Side comment: The action pistol is interesting and used to be a thing back in the day. It is not allowed in sanctioned PRS any more as far as I know unless pistol is put on a stage for everyone and is more of just a stressor before shooting rifle. I remember shooting a full auto AR at Heat stroke before a stage. Was cool. I wouldn’t fret out of the norm stuff like that though, it gets you out of your comfort zone. Not a bad thing. Shoot some run n guns to have similar experience. The ones I’ve done are laid back but get you familiarity with pistols and ARs and making sure your gear is streamlined and squared away.
Side comment: The action pistol is interesting and used to be a thing back in the day. It is not allowed in sanctioned PRS any more as far as I know unless pistol is put on a stage for everyone and is more of just a stressor before shooting rifle. I remember shooting a full auto AR at Heat stroke before a stage. Was cool. I wouldn’t fret out of the norm stuff like that though, it gets you out of your comfort zone. Not a bad thing. Shoot some run n guns to have similar experience. The ones I’ve done are laid back but get you familiarity with pistols and ARs and making sure your gear is streamlined and squared away.
Yup pistols and positional used to be part of matches but not anymore.
The problem with more divisions is why. So some guy can feel good about getting beat. Or get a trophy for being 1 of 2 or 3. We don’t have separate prize tables. So they still walk where they finish over all. Even with the support of companies (like MPA and Ruger) there still are only ever a handful of guys in production. I think a weirdo class like limited would be even less. And those guys will be new shooters. So guess what. They qualify for the marksman, semi pro, etc categories. Which frankly were to appease exactly what you are saying. The guy who is starting with perceived say “lesser” equipment.
I get the expense of things. And unfortunately it is what it is. It’s more expensive to be involved in PRS style matches than USPSA where you can show up with your $450 Glock in production with cheap ammo and be “ok”. I mean I want to race GT3 cars or trophy trucks . But can’t afford it. It is what it is. But the cost of a decent rifle is small in comparison to the cost of competiting and practicing enough to do well.
Sorry you’re so narrow sighted. Having a division for people to take their current hunting rifle they’ve had for 10 years and put it in a chassis is ideal. You’re right “production” class is kind of a joke. An MPA isn’t a production rifle, a savage 110 elite is though and is what the top guy just won with. Amateur, Marksman, Semi Pro and Pro are only classes in the pro series, not at the regional level.
Don’t create a limited division, but then open up production rules to allow changing chassis on production rifles. We want people to get into the sport but do nothing to actually foster growth.
People like you are why any sport or hobby doesn’t grow. Just because YOU don’t see a problem then there isn’t one.
Alwine winning Production (and placing 2nd overall at the finale) with a Savage production rifle really undercuts the entire argument about expensive gear and semi-custom rifles being the thing keeping guys from taking the plunge of giving matches a try. The dude literally outshot every open shooter in the country except for one, at one of the toughest matches of the year, with a factory Savage.
I've seen him do the same in the factory class at hunter matches with a Savage in a freaking plastic stock.
And letting dudes change the stocks on their "production rifles" would make the class impossible to regulate and no different than open.
I completely disagree. That’s a weak minded excuse. First off the sport is growing at a great rate. Second. There is a class for those people. It’s called open. And honestly if they are new and showing up to a regional match. What does it matter. It’s a weak minded excuse from people who are afraid. Or need a trophy to feel better about themselves. Their ego can’t handle showing up like we all did and not doing well. That’s sad. It’s not limiting.
And just because you precieve a problem, doesn’t mean there is one. You are the problem, trying to convince people that the only way to compete and learn is to have a class dedicated to the gear they have so they can place within that catagory. In the one day matches, even in uspsa, we always just looked where we finished overall. And tried to learn and do better. How about spending the time to convince people to show up and compete and learn.
Well then fuck it, why have tac class, gas gun, production, juniors, LE/mil, seniors, etc. everyone shoots open and that’s it. I don’t give a fuck about egos. Never once did I say anything about wanting to win or get a trophy. Not everyone is gonna run your $8k open rifle is my point. And putting a 1st time shooter against a guy who gets paid to shoot in the same class is fucking retarded. This is my fucking point since you’re all so thick. There should be a class for Joe shooter to come out and shoot and be competitive with a $750 rifle and optic setup. That’s fucking it. Not trophy’s but people that are in the same skill and equipment level.
So that they don’t compare themselves to PRS cool guys like you shooting 25x47 handloads out of your 1.25” straight contour Kruger barrel on your $2k action with your $4k ZCO optic and $1800 MDT ACC Elite.
Fuck I don’t get why this is such a fucking controversial topic.
There was. It was called production until the companies started pushing PRS to up the limit so they can make money.
And there was a time without all those divisions. It was called pre PRS. No one kept track of points.
And to add to the "fuck the prs" mentality.... just going to leave this in when the opportunity presents. The ORIGINAL stated intent for production until the prs showed their vagina and gave in. I won't even touch the controversy a few years ago when they outlawed a production gun after the season and took a trophy away.There was. It was called production until the companies started pushing PRS to up the limit so they can make money.
And there was a time without all those divisions. It was called pre PRS. No one kept track of points.
This stuff will all play out over time. Almost all shooters get tired of stuff that is no fun, leaving only the self congratulating folks and those who are new. If the present model is solid, it will be successful and continue growing. I’m tired of the the time and $$$ commitment requirements for what has become a “meh” return. YMMV.
Right there with you. I hit a few regional and outlaw matches just to stay "fresh" but I cant enjoy the regular prs crap anymore. All the same standard stages and still $200+ for no innovation. Been done with it a few years now.
If it was local to me, I would set aside a Saturday, or even an occasional weekend no problem. 5 days off work and $12-$1500 all in costs are not really fun anymore.
