With the proliferation of new-ish 25 cal cartridges (25×47L, 25 dasher, 25 BR, 25 BRA, 25 SAUM, 25PRC, 25×284, etc), when will some of the main stream makers challenge Black Jack? Anyone heard any solid rumors?
when will berger, sierra, hornady, etc release 25 cal bullets?
- Thread starter Winny94
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Proliferation is probably not the word I would choose. You’ve got a few shooters interested and tinkering with 25 caliber because it’s new and shiny with the Blackjack bullet. Nowhere near enough demand for the big manufacturers to justify tooling up and designing a new bullet. I wouldn't hold your breath.
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^^ This. The Blackjack bullet media frenzy has renewed some interest in 25 caliber for long range, but a few handloaders buying a few barrels won't motivate bullet designers at large companies. Now if rifle makers start putting out fast twist 25 caliber rifles, and they sell well, that might change.
doesn't sierra make the black jack ace? don't see the other bullet makers try and put out a 257 to better the ace, not any time soon. Like Sheldon said not enough demand. but I see you didn't mention the 25 gay tiger in the OP...or am I the only one going to try that 
Seems like the ultimate exercise in splitting hairs. The .257 bullet is so close to 6.5, the bullet would actually engrave in a 6.5 bore. Scale it up to .264, and sell 100 times more of them.
A couple of examples are the
270 Winchester at .277
280 Remington at. 284.
That's a whopping .007, yes, seven one thousands of an inch.
250 Savage at .257
6.5 Creed at .264.
And yes, they are the same case with the favor going to the Creed due to less body tape and a steeper shoulder angle.
The diameter difference?
Yep, .007 same as above.
How about the 25-06 vs the 270?
.257 vs .277, another whopping. 020.
280 Remington vs 30-06?
.284 vs 308 = .024.
If you're trying to kill deer and other critters, it really doesn't matter.
Dead is dead.
Long range targets?
Different story.
If you scale the blackjack up to 6.5 diameter, you've now lowered the BC if kept the same weight. You enlarge it, now you are into 150gr 6.5 bullets to achieve the same BC again.
Lately, we've been trying to reduce recoil, a fun comparison recoil wise would be a 6.5x47 with a 130gr against a 25x47 shooting the blackjack. A bullet has to be far superior to offerings on both sides, 6mm and 6.5 to revive a caliber. Of coarse you have guys who want the new craze, and will go out of their way to make it work, but in competition shooting, will it survive? When guys are scaling down to a6 BR or a 6BRA from Dasher, it is hard to believe most will go the other way.
Sierra sure seems to build or outsource winners to other companies when it comes to heavy for caliber bullets, locking themselves out of that market.
Well i for one am sold on the Ace. Ive got a blank headed to PVA to be chambered in .25 CM. What sold me was when i ran the numbers in my calculator with conservative speeds/B.C. and saw the performance of it. Not to mention the amount of once fired lapua 6.5 cal brass that i have. Only made sense when i needed a new barrel anyway. Just buy another bullet and bushing for my dies... done. Will it be the replacement for the BR based cartridges, probably not, but it has a place and use. it fills a gap that is indeed there.
I’m all for playing with an new and interesting stuff. I’ve got two wildcat reamers in the works now, so I understand the urge. As it stands now, there’s only a click or two difference between the common 6’s and 6.5’s. As long as nobody’s under the impression they’re buying into some sort of game changer with the 131.
I agree with you 100% on Sierra making winners for other companies. How the hell is a DTAC so good, yet the same price as a 107, and substantially cheaper than their new fangled 110? Kudos to Blackjack for getting in on that action, and making what appears to be a good bullet.
Even though I most likely will never mess with it, I think it will be a fun adventure. If the BC is as claimed, it is going to shoot also.
It's got a really good advertised B.C. .330 G7 It's only one bullet and it's long.
No better than a 6.5 140 eld-m. Sure you can push it a little faster, I'm not ready to
stop the presses and jump on the band wagon for one bullet.
Next week someone will come out with a higher B.C. 6mm bullet and the
party will start all over again and the .257 will go to the back of the closet again.
No better than a 6.5 140 eld-m. Sure you can push it a little faster, I'm not ready to
stop the presses and jump on the band wagon for one bullet.
Next week someone will come out with a higher B.C. 6mm bullet and the
party will start all over again and the .257 will go to the back of the closet again.
The advertised BC of the 131 ACE is conservative to say the least. With real world difference of over .030 G7 points and 9 grains lighter, not to mention achievable velocities that are 150-200 fps higher from the same parent case. I would have to say comparing it to the 140 ELD is a joke. It's not for everyone but the 131 ACE beats every 6.5 bullet in elevation, wind drift and retained energy when fired from the same case.
I'm just going by what Hornady lists the 140g ELD-M at .326 G7 a difference of .004
I also said that you can push the 131 faster. If it is a published conservative estimate
than that's all I have to go by and they need to up date their info.
Or show us your results.
I also said that you can push the 131 faster. If it is a published conservative estimate
than that's all I have to go by and they need to up date their info.
Or show us your results.
.330 is what the preproduction bullets were tested at on a Ohler 88 system at 2940 fps out of a 1:7.75" twist barrel, basically just barely stable. There is a slight difference in the production run bullets which increased BC as well as using a 1:7-1:7.25" twist at those velocities bring out the true BC. We leave the .330 G7 as advertised since we have hard data to back it up. I would much rater advertise worst case scenario and have customers pleasantly surprised than do what has been done by bullet companies for a century and post highest possible results or and outright lie. All of our customers using appropriate twist barrels report back .345-.350 G7. There is plenty of those reports here on SH and other forums if you want to read it so someone else's mouth.
Also that .326 G7 for the 140 is a Mach 2.25 number that will no hold true at distance. Hornady also publishes mach 2 of .320 and mach 1.75 of .310. Most reports from actual shooters are in the .312-.315 to line up at distance.
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I'm not doubting you. The .257 has always been a second place caliber and if someone
came up with a really good bullet, then shout it out.
I see some places have just come out with new reamers for a 25 creed, 25x47, 25 dasher and 25 br
so maybe it will gain some traction cause not quite the barrel burner of the fast 6's
but still just as flat shooting as them, or better. They need to come out with a couple more weight bullets (lighter, low 120's or high teens)
and keep the momentum going or it will just pass by, unless Sierra or Berger jump on the wagon soon.
came up with a really good bullet, then shout it out.
I see some places have just come out with new reamers for a 25 creed, 25x47, 25 dasher and 25 br
so maybe it will gain some traction cause not quite the barrel burner of the fast 6's
but still just as flat shooting as them, or better. They need to come out with a couple more weight bullets (lighter, low 120's or high teens)
and keep the momentum going or it will just pass by, unless Sierra or Berger jump on the wagon soon.
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Well that's what we are trying to change, leave it so a couple stubborn Okies to make it happen. There really is a sweet spot in the .257 caliber that we are trying to share with the masses. We have gotten most of the top manufactures of barrels to tool up and start producing fast twist .257 barrels. As well as having reamers set up with the correct freebore for the ACE. resizing Dies are a simple busing change for most and VLD 6.5 seaters work just fine.
Look at it this way. The 260 Remington ended up pretty good after they started making the right twist barrels for them. Then comes along the 6.5CM that tweaks this and that and everyone goes crazy over it. With all the new cartridges coming out to shoot the 131 Ace, perhaps one or two of them might have the magic appeal that the Creedmoor has.
I've got three blanks waiting on reamers to see what I can do with a fast twist 25 caliber. I will enjoy working up loads and I don't have lofty expectations so I think I will be satisfied from what I have been seeing of others shooting with theirs. I have no problem getting a barrel chambered around just one bullet.
Speak of the Devil, I just got an email as I am writing this reply from Blackjack saying my 25x47L reamer has arrived! The fun starts soon!
I've got three blanks waiting on reamers to see what I can do with a fast twist 25 caliber. I will enjoy working up loads and I don't have lofty expectations so I think I will be satisfied from what I have been seeing of others shooting with theirs. I have no problem getting a barrel chambered around just one bullet.
Speak of the Devil, I just got an email as I am writing this reply from Blackjack saying my 25x47L reamer has arrived! The fun starts soon!
Lighter is not the direction we are going right now but will eventually. The 131's can be pushed 3050+ from a creedmoore case, 3300 from a SAUM, 3400 from a WBY
yo. Ranger. Cancel dat 22. The next bullet is going to outrun the 131 ACE to 1000-1200 yards.
We will be sending prototypes out to our early supporters soon enough and get feedback from different barrel types and all that.
We've got another 1/4 million ACE's headed this way and soon 1/4 million of Bullet #2. 450 blanks coming in the next 2-3 months.
So I guess you could say it's getting seriouth
Projections don't show sales drying up. We are scaling up to meet the demand and orders. As of now the contracts have more than adoubled in size but projections show a quarter on quarter growth factor of 3.6x.
Besides market response, the performance is there and folks are going to keep heading in that direction. People are enjoying the prospect of increased barrel life over their last chamberings. Lots of comments on target energy downrange too, which is noticeable when shooting next to a 6 creed and a 6.5 creed at distance.
As I mentioned in another reply, we have over 450 blanks coming in the next few months and a truckload of bullets, including bullet #2.
BJ, just reminding - Savage and Remage prefits please!!!
My Shilen select match prefit shoots tighter than my premium barrels did. Not sure I want to spend $800+ for a shouldered/ fitted barrel anymore???
My Shilen select match prefit shoots tighter than my premium barrels did. Not sure I want to spend $800+ for a shouldered/ fitted barrel anymore???
If you run the #'s it's got some real potential, and your coming out with a lighter bullet
and some manufactures are making faster twist barrels. Hopefully the die makers fall in also.
Like my FL non bushing sizer die. If its still got some steam, it will be my fall project.
7.75 - 8 twist still keeps it at 100% B.C. in most cases.
A lighter bullet and running at low to mid 3000's would be the ticket for long
range stinky yotes. 22 creedmoor, who?
and some manufactures are making faster twist barrels. Hopefully the die makers fall in also.
Like my FL non bushing sizer die. If its still got some steam, it will be my fall project.
7.75 - 8 twist still keeps it at 100% B.C. in most cases.
A lighter bullet and running at low to mid 3000's would be the ticket for long
range stinky yotes. 22 creedmoor, who?
@rth1800
I was skeptical. My buddy is a .25 fan boy and would not shut up about this. Then instead of rolling my eyes I looked at the data. Just plug this bullet into your ballistic calculator compared to the load you are shooting now.... ya, pretty sweet bullet isn’t it. It achieves within 1% of what a 7mm bullet can but with minimal recoil.
I have 2k of these bullets and 500 cases prepped. I’m sold.
I was skeptical. My buddy is a .25 fan boy and would not shut up about this. Then instead of rolling my eyes I looked at the data. Just plug this bullet into your ballistic calculator compared to the load you are shooting now.... ya, pretty sweet bullet isn’t it. It achieves within 1% of what a 7mm bullet can but with minimal recoil.
I have 2k of these bullets and 500 cases prepped. I’m sold.
It's just another heavy for caliber bullet. 115 DTAC, 131 Blackjack, 147 ELD-M.... take your pick. Use a Creedmore case to send them at optimistic speeds of 3100, 3000, or 2800 and they are all within a tenth of each other at 1200 yards for wind with plenty of retained energy. The 6mm trades off less recoil for slightly less energy downrange compared to the heavier rounds.
Not magic, just the sliding scale of recoil vs energy you see in all caliber discussions.
Let me eloborate.
My current loads.
6.5 CM 140g ELDM @ 2880 FPS
1760 yards = 975 FPS with 21.7 mil elevation and 3.65 mil windage
.243 108 ELDM @ 3300 FPS
1760 yards = 1022 FPS with 17.8 mil elevation and 3.6 mil windage
NOW!!!!!
25 CM 131g @ 3050 FPS
1760 yards = 1168 FPS with 16.6 mil elevation and 2.68 mil windage
This thing eats wind.
My current loads.
6.5 CM 140g ELDM @ 2880 FPS
1760 yards = 975 FPS with 21.7 mil elevation and 3.65 mil windage
.243 108 ELDM @ 3300 FPS
1760 yards = 1022 FPS with 17.8 mil elevation and 3.6 mil windage
NOW!!!!!
25 CM 131g @ 3050 FPS
1760 yards = 1168 FPS with 16.6 mil elevation and 2.68 mil windage
This thing eats wind.
I’m not picking a fight but hopefully there are smarter people then you who khow how to look at data and see the potential of this bullet. The blackjack saves me almost 65” of wind at a mile. You have no idea what the future holds.
Post your current rounds data... maybe you have a great recipe already.
No, a heavier for caliber bullet has better BC. You are comparing the wrong bullets. It would be like comparing a 230grain 308 caliber bullet and a 140 grain 7mm Bullet and saying "Look, the 308 caliber is better!".
Heavy for caliber bullets in 6mm are bullets like the 115 DTAC or maybe 110gr SMK. In 6.5mm heavy for caliber bullets are things like the 147 ELD-M or Sierra 150gr Matchking. All those bullets have similar BC's to the 131 blackjack. That's why I say it's not magic.
Whether you post negativity or not has no effect on the available performance on the table which will outrun any 6.5 parent cartridge neck down to 0.257".
Your opinion that sales will dry up at some point which was not previously specified until this reply will be validated or negated by the market of shooters. Let's just revisit this post in 3, 5, and 10 years.
I have no worries about it though, because we have brought one very efficient bullet to the market that will outrun 6.5s from the same cases and we have bullet #2 that will only add to that performance gap from 0-1100 yards and bullet #3 which is a true blue wind bucker for LR target and Hunting.
Blackjack Bullets has years and years of growth ahead of us - but that's not why we are doing this.
We are tapping into the low recoil downrange performance available in 25 cal and bringing it to the shooting community when the major companies would not. Some are talking about entering the fray which they eventually will due to the practical target and medium game performance sitting there for the taking in 25 cal.
I'm not particularly worried if they do or do not - Blackjack Bullets will keep introducing high BC 25 cals and down the road other calibers as well. Our designs and pricing will be competitive, our info as transparent as possible, and many shooters will be sending Blackjack Bullets downrange. For me it's that simple.
Lots of good days and things to come.
Got notification that my GS received my blank today and the reamer is 1-3wks out. @257 Blackjack , do you know of anyone currently shooting the Ace in an AI? That's what mine is going on.
That's awesome. I think it will be the first AI 257 in history lol. That's great man. Can't wait to see the results. Load Dev and range pics are my favorite inbox items.
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There's truth the the fact that 6mm is superior in most target roles to 600-850 yards and yes the 0.243 has that advantage in terms of trajectory and somewhat in speed, but that's where the 257 takes over and the bandwidth the 257 outruns the 6.5s is a loooong ways.
The BC used for the 131 ACE here at a very conservative 2925 fps is the prototype 0.330 G7. The production bullets are running 0.345 G7 with the lowest reported at 0.341 and many guys running 0.345-0.350+ G7.
My Oehler 89 will be here in a few months and we will publish data from multiple rifling types, twists, and groove counts. I can't wait to test a lineup of 257's and different cartridges to publish the results. Whatever it says is what you will see on our FB page and forums.
I don't mind critics or skeptics - I knew we'd have plenty of them - but you're restatements of what we do as "make claims.. of a ballistic miracle" is disingenuous at best.
We've published conservative BC numbers and been as transparent as we can be. I'm not going to be silent about our bullets' performance abilities. I've got no interest in presenting BS. The companies that have came before us and did that are part of the reason we receive so much skepticism today besides our company's philosophy of being straight up.
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It's not magic. It's just simply quite efficient with a high enough mass to surface area ratio to have a solid BC and yet still have high attainable muzzle velocities out of standard cartridges.
Just to clarify a little bit on the Heavy For Weight point:
- The 115 gr 0.243 would be 136 gr in 257.
- The 147 0.264 would be 135.6 gr.
- The 115 gr would be a more or less equivalent 147.5 if scaled to 0.264.
- The 131 would be 111 and 141.99
I love bullets like the 147 ELDM and the 150 SMK. They are great designs. They just take more powder to move them to equivalent ballistics. And that's fine too if you accept the extra recoil required.
Balance is what we were going for in the beginning. Not an end all be all bullet.
I wanted to calculate the ideal geometry for the level of recoil I felt like I could personally control well from improvised shooting positions common in hunting situations or field style matches like PRS/NRL/Tactical.
It was basically a coincidence that this diameter happened to be very close to 0.257".
Since I can be a bit stubborn I didn't care about the dead zone and uphill climb in equipment, tooling, and general skepticism that surrounded 0.257.
I underestimated the range which it would carry usable target energy for hunting, and that has been a great bonus toward medium game for what started out as a math exercise to optimize my match shooting.
Wish I got to shoot more often but now all I do is ship bullets : (
Overall Sheldon I totally get what you're saying in the general sense. When I have time to run them though, I'd prefer to run AB Analytics comparisons off of realistic load data.
A great marksman can work with 6mm, 257, 6.5 or even something like 7 SAW. They all have their pluses and minuses including barrel life, recoil, wind, etc. Just pick your poison but 257 and 6.5 really are a great blend of these attributes for all around shooting.
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D
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All I know is it shoots great. In fact, that is all I care about.
I'm not tracking with the "ideal geometry" concept. 25 caliber itself doesn't have any magic BC properties that give it a better weight/BC ratio. Larger caliber bullets will have better BC when scaled for weight. But beyond that the only thing you could attempt to claim is "I designed a superior bullet shape with better BC than Hornady/Sierra/etc".
As far as being in a PRS/NRL sweet spot for recoil, I'm not sure it is for the majority of shooters. Most guys are 6mm, with a strong trend towards lighter recoiling variants. The upper end of 6mm recoil would be a hot load in a 6 Creed running a DTAC, but most guys choose to run smaller cases, lower velocities, etc. Realistically, your recoil with a 131gr bullet going 2925fps is MORE than a conservative 6.5x47 140gr load going 2750fps (but better ballistics). Alternatively you could do a DTAC at 3050 fps from a 6 Creed and match the performance of the 131, and do it with with noticeably less recoil (but worse barrel life than the 25 cal).
Ultimately it's another rung on the sliding scale of ballistics/recoil/barrel life. And a claim of "Goldilocks" is in the eye of the beholder.
Have you actually shot any of these to a mile? If so, how about in wind? In calcs, light bullets look good, wind disrupts vertical flight, especially in light bullets.
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