Suppressors Who can ask for papers?

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I hope the call is made between 7:30-4:30 because thats when the NFA Branch is open... otherwise you will be sitting on your thumb for awhile. </div></div>

Bingo

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess. </div></div>

Making a call to the BATFE to see if an individual has NFA firearms registered to them doesn't equate to "minority report."

What you are doing is trying to minimize and discredit my argument by suggesting that what I said is somehow unrealistic. I suppose we're all just a bunch of crazy gun nuts to you then officer... </div></div>

I hope the call is made between 7:30-4:30 because thats when the NFA Branch is open... otherwise you will be sitting on your thumb for awhile. </div></div>

Maybe that needs to change. The citizens shouldn't have to compromise their rights to mitigate the lack of communication between agencies. </div></div>

Creature.... I dont know you at all so forgive me but are you not paying attention to the current times with NFA tracker and all the shit surrounding the ATF? They are on a hiring freeze and barely got approval to hire examiner assistants let along more secretaries that should be at YOUR beckon call because you are to stubborn to show your Form4. It may not be the "gung ho 2nd amendement" way out but make both your lives easier and show it and say "I am in my full legal rights to own this item and use it in according to state and federal laws". The end

 

[chainring]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

What Lofty said. Camel nose gotta be smacked, in all walks of life. Funny thing about erosion is that if you let it start, it increases at an exponential rate.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bullshit. </div></div>You are misrepresenting the facts.

Nowhere in this Thread did any law enforcement officer state that any person would be 'shaken down' for their papers.

That's not how it works.

You are free not to produce them, which may give the officer a reasonable and articulable suspicion that they do not exist.

The patrol officer is not investigating or enforcing federal tax law, he is enforcing state law prohibiting the <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illegal</span></span> possession of silencers. </div></div>

Fixed it for you.

 

[thezoltar]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Throughout this whole discussion I have failed to see where any state level LEO is authorized to demand a federal tax document from any citizen. Everyone should remember there is no proof of ownership document that comes with an NFA item. Maybe your sales receipt. Checking on the legality of an NFA item is a red tape infested endeavor with in writing requests required between lawyers and government departments.

I would imagine 99%+ of LEO's or regular firearms enthusiasts out there wouldn't know what a real form 4 looked like anyway. Even I only carry a copy of my forms and they could just as easily be copies of my mortgage.

If someone was stopped for another offense, deciding on the legality of any NFA items would not end with a cursory glance at an uncertain document by a LEO untrained in NFA tax law. If a LEO makes a determination of legal ownership based on a copy of a document he is not <span style="font-weight: bold">OFFICIALLY TRAINED </span> to inspect I would question his/her judgement. To me this is definitely an over stepping of authority.

So I seem to be hearing that we'll just arrest you anyway and deal with the consequences later. Wow, good police work. Even with the Texas law examples presented I didn't see a requirement to have proof or documentation on your person.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thezoltar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Throughout this whole discussion I have failed to see where any state level LEO is authorized to demand a federal tax document from any citizen. Everyone should remember there is no proof of ownership document that comes with an NFA item. Maybe your sales receipt. Checking on the legality of an NFA item is a red tape infested endeavor with in writing requests required between lawyers and government departments.

I would imagine 99%+ of LEO's or regular firearms enthusiasts out there wouldn't know what a real form 4 looked like anyway. Even I only carry a copy of my forms and they could just as easily be copies of my mortgage.

If someone was stopped for another offense, deciding on the legality of any NFA items would not end with a cursory glance at an uncertain document by a LEO untrained in NFA tax law. If a LEO makes a determination of legal ownership based on a copy of a document he is not <span style="font-weight: bold">OFFICIALLY TRAINED </span> to inspect I would question his/her judgement. To me this is definitely an over stepping of authority.

So I seem to be hearing that we'll just arrest you anyway and deal with the consequences later. Wow, good police work. Even with the Texas law examples presented I didn't see a requirement to have proof or documentation on your person. </div></div>

BINGO

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Creature.... I dont know you at all so forgive me but are you not paying attention to the current times with NFA tracker and all the shit surrounding the ATF? They are on a hiring freeze and barely got approval to hire examiner assistants let along more secretaries that should be at YOUR beckon call because you are to stubborn to show your Form4. It may not be the "gung ho 2nd amendement" way out but make both your lives easier and show it and say "I am in my full legal rights to own this item and use it in according to state and federal laws". The end </div></div>

It's not my responsibility to make their lives easier. Law enforcement is way over-funded as it is. Don't tell me they don't have the resources.

No matter how much you try and minimize this it is still a liberty vs security issue. If you would take a pragmatic look at history you would find that large violations of individual rights have been spurred by minor infringements.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Oh, well since its so hard to determine the ownership of an NFA item and I cant recognize Form 4 I guess my only recourse is to impound the possible contraband until ownership can be determined...

...or I could just look at the name, address, and picture on the Form 4...

...but youre not going to show me that are you...

 

[Mschloss]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, well since its so hard to determine the ownership of an NFA item and I cant recognize Form 4 I guess my only recourse is to impound the possible contraband until ownership can be determined...

...or I could just look at the name, address, and picture on the Form 4...

...but youre not going to show me that are you... </div></div>

That sums it up comrade...

 

[Conqueror]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway.</div></div>
I wonder how your chief, local DA, and/or local news station would feel about that.

This thread has become totally texas-specific. Nationwide, only an ATF agent may <span style="font-style: italic">demand</span> to see your papers. Anyone else can <span style="font-style: italic">ask</span> to see them, but it's your prerogative whether or not to show them.

 

[Kevlars]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

So if it's on a trust, how will you tell?

Here is the question as I see it. Are supressors allowed in your state, yes...leave it alone and walk away LEO's are not empowered to verify papers.

No, ok now it's a different story .....

And yes I have denied showing papers to LEO had his supervisor come out and he agreed with me. My exact argument was how do you know that I own this weapon? Are you going to call to see if it was registered ? Now I live in az supressors are allowed. However I do carry my paperwork with me all th time.

The Leo was an ass ... Now if he ask nice I would have complied and I told the super that as well.

My 2 cents

 

[Ol' RD]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch2120</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For a bunch of guys that like showing off their expensive ass toys we sure are stingy with a piece of paper worth 200 bucks. I show mine like its a badge of honor. I have something cool and waited months for it. Look, here's proof! </div></div>

Bingo! We have a winner! LOL!

 

[thezoltar]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I might show you if you ask nicely

Or I might give you my name and address and serial number of the item in question and send you on your way to do some homework to determine if I am in fact legal. I know you have studied the law or you wouldn't be in law enforcement. All cases of legality are not determined on the spot in many cases. I have not refused to show registration, but I have given you the tools to determine legal registration. Are you prepared to tell me I am in violation of the law? The problem I see, if we are talking about Texas law, is there is no exact avenue or process written into the law to satisfy proof of registration of an NFA item. As NFA becomes more prevalent this will become a bigger problem for LEO's and owners and not one of their own making. This is a grey area with dangers to both LEO and NFA owners. This piece of Texas law looks like bad law to me. Everything NFA is illegal until it is legal. In my state everything NFA is legal until it isn't. Small but HUGE difference. I understand your attitude about what you consider to be enforcing the law but quite frankly you sound more like a New Jersey cop than a Texas cop.

 

[Skunk]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thezoltar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Or I might give you my name and address and serial number of the item in question and send you on your way to do some homework to determine if I am in fact legal. I know you have studied the law or you wouldn't be in law enforcement. All cases of legality are not determined on the spot in many cases. I have not refused to show registration, but I have given you the tools to determine legal registration.</div></div>

Don't you guys think the LEO can/will keep you within reach until he can find his answer?

 

[Stag15m4]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I am a cop and have been so for a while now...

I have 2 Form 1 suppressors on a trust and both have a fancy $200 stamp on the top of the paper. My Form 1s are almost a right of passage and I am rather proud of them.

My job as a cop is to find the bad guys. The ones who want to prey on the good guys. The only way to do that is by talking to everyone I encounter to determine if they are good people doing something stupid or if they are bad people pretending to be good people. I do not get my rocks off asking people for their Forms 1 or 4. Or even better, asking for their SOT status to determine if their MG is REALLY a dealer sample or not. The fact of the matter is if they are at a GUN RANGE, they are not out robbing jewelry stores or 7/11 stores with their $16,000 M-16. If they have a nicely built suppressor with serial numbers and model numbers and they are not exhibiting any SIGNS OF DECEIT, than they are more than likely G2G. The bad guys generally don't go to the range! They hide their cache until it's time to use it.

Cops who go to the range presumably while off duty and question people about their tax status is a ridiculous thought. Go sit on the highway and learn to be a cop... Interdict illegal weapons being smuggled... Interdict kilos of cocaine... Interdict large amounts of cash moving from drug buyer to drug dealer. More importantly, learn that anybody can manufacture a document, especially when it is readily available ON THE INTERNET. Read the person, not the tax stamp.

BatchelorJack...

"Cops are the best liars out there."

That is the most short-sighted anti-cop liberal BS talk I've heard in a while. There are a number of overzealous rookies out stretching their wings. There are also a larger number of seasoned officers who are not out screwing with people just because "they can."

Just as with anything, those people make names for themselves and it usually burns them in the not-so-long run.

Your absurd blanket statement is not only incorrect, but extremely offensive. Forum-Jockeys are the best liars out there, ask Brad Paisley.

Long story short... If you are not doing something stupid and some rookie asks you for a Form 1 or 4 while you're at the range, save yourself some time and hassle by showing it to him. First, school his ass, then call and tell his supervisor what his off-duty activities for the day consisted of.

If you are traveling from point A to point B and commit a traffic violation and the investigating officer asks you if you have documentation for your NFA item, show him! Most states fall back on the Federal NFA laws to determine legality of the weapon. If you can show that you are in compliance than what sense does it make not to???

It will save a lot of time and money and stupid, useless court time.

...My .35 Cents.

 

[bm11]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>But for a traffic stop, to pull someone over they have to be suspected of a violation, yes? Can you pull someone over just to check their license?

 

[Stag15m4]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

I almost forgot...

Most cops don't have any idea about NFA stuff. More often than not the question asked is more of a curiosity thing being poorly phrased. Somebody who is squared away and has all of their stuff can teach a lot of information to somebody who does not know and that includes the lowly Patrol Officer.

 

[thezoltar]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thezoltar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...Or I might give you my name and address and serial number of the item in question and send you on your way to do some homework to determine if I am in fact legal. I know you have studied the law or you wouldn't be in law enforcement. All cases of legality are not determined on the spot in many cases. I have not refused to show registration, but I have given you the tools to determine legal registration.</div></div>

Don't you guys think the LEO can/will keep you within reach until he can find his answer? </div></div>

Well, that's the question and maybe the start of a lawsuit isn't it.

**** I'd like to thank Stag15M4 for his reasoned input.

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

If you stop me for a traffic violation you are doing just that, stopping me for violating some sort of law while operating a motor vehicle. Sure, run my license and check for insurance. I violated the law.

If I'm at a public range shooting my whatever safely and lawfully, what violation of the law have I committed that warrants you checking my papers to see if I lawfully posses whatever I'm shooting, NFA or not?

I too would take it as an insult if you asked me for my papers without myself having violated some law.

 

[Skunk]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Ever hear of a Terry Stop? Look up Terry v. Ohio and see what the Supreme Court said about brief detentions.

 

[Pflyinguy]

Re: Who can ask for papers?


**** I'd like to thank Stag15M4 for his reasoned input. [/quote]

I 2nd that Well put.

 

[Creature]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, well since its so hard to determine the ownership of an NFA item and I cant recognize Form 4 I guess my only recourse is to impound the possible contraband until ownership can be determined...
</div></div>

Good luck.

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So if I stop you on traffic and ask for your driver's license, which is proof that you can legally oparate a motor vehicle, it constitutes a 'shakedown for your papers'??

Its the same kind of inquiry </div></div>

If you have stopped me for a traffic <span style="font-weight: bold">violation</span> Then I have broken the law and as such should and must present license and insurance.
Being stopped at roadblocks to check my license, insurance, and ask where I am going is along the same lines as asking me for my proof at the range. Those are instances where I feel I am being asked to show I am not guilty of something.

Do not misunderstand me, I have great respect and appreciation for LEOs.

 

[Cornholeo]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im incredibly interested to hear your plan to curtail the proliferation of illegal firearms without talking to anyone but the 'bad guys'. We'll have to get all 'Minority Report' on you and refer it to the 'Future Crimes' division I guess. </div></div>

I would think you would have many more instances of illegal possession of a firearm than illegal possession of a NFA item. With that said, how does LEO determine illegal possession of firearms at gun ranges? Are people checked for those?

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Cornholeo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Being stopped at roadblocks to check my license, insurance, and ask where I am going is along the same lines as asking me for my proof at the range. Those are instances where I feel I am being asked to show I am not guilty of something.
</div></div>

I don't agree with check points at all. The authorities set DUI checkpoints, harassing 4-5 hundred lawful users of the road, just to capture the less than 1% of those who are under the influence. It's ridiculous.

So, with that type of logic as it relates to firearms, everyone should be stopped(harassed) at the range and checked so the authorities can capture the few that are committing a firearms violation. Especially given the high frequency of range use by criminals.
^^^^^^^^^^
Insert sarcasm.

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

This thread has taken a turn for the stupid! Some of the logic I'm reading is ridiculous!

 

[fdkay]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

In Texas, possession of a prohibited weapon is a felony.

It is also a crime to fail to report a felony.

On or off duty does not matter, if we see a possible felony in progress, we are going to act.
If I witnessed your wife being raped, would you expect me to say "Sorry, I'm off duty" or would you expect me to act?

Some of you are bitching about cops overstepping their authority, yet have admitted to shooting on ranges with cops on many occasions with no difficulty and no questions asked.

The OP originally asked, who could request your papers.

ANY one can request, that does not mean you must comply.

In Texas, it is illegal to own a suppressor or short barreled rifle.
It is a defense to prosecution to have it registered with the ATF.
It is NOT an affirmative defense to prosecution.

So you MAY be arrested on a felony charge. You may go to county jail. You may have to bond out, all because you did not show your "Tax Stamp".

What you won't be able to do is sue the department for enforcing a state law.

What you are missing is an opportunity to educate and inform and possibly get someone else interested in owning an SBR or suppressor.

FWIW, I have NEVER asked to see anyone's papers, because I have never seen a dirtbag with a suppressor or SBR at the range.

But if I see a known affiliate of a gang at the range, damn skippy I'll be checking it out.

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This thread has taken a turn for the stupid! Some of the logic I'm reading is ridiculous! </div></div>

Sorry if you feel this way because of me. I just really don't like being treated like a bad guy simply because I exist.

 

[windermike]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stag15m4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a cop and have been so for a while now...

I have 2 Form 1 suppressors on a trust and both have a fancy $200 stamp on the top of the paper. My Form 1s are almost a right of passage and I am rather proud of them.

My job as a cop is to find the bad guys. The ones who want to prey on the good guys. The only way to do that is by talking to everyone I encounter to determine if they are good people doing something stupid or if they are bad people pretending to be good people. I do not get my rocks off asking people for their Forms 1 or 4. Or even better, asking for their SOT status to determine if their MG is REALLY a dealer sample or not. The fact of the matter is if they are at a GUN RANGE, they are not out robbing jewelry stores or 7/11 stores with their $16,000 M-16. If they have a nicely built suppressor with serial numbers and model numbers and they are not exhibiting any SIGNS OF DECEIT, than they are more than likely G2G. The bad guys generally don't go to the range! They hide their cache until it's time to use it.

Cops who go to the range presumably while off duty and question people about their tax status is a ridiculous thought. Go sit on the highway and learn to be a cop... Interdict illegal weapons being smuggled... Interdict kilos of cocaine... Interdict large amounts of cash moving from drug buyer to drug dealer. More importantly, learn that anybody can manufacture a document, especially when it is readily available ON THE INTERNET. Read the person, not the tax stamp.

BatchelorJack...

"Cops are the best liars out there."

That is the most short-sighted anti-cop liberal BS talk I've heard in a while. There are a number of overzealous rookies out stretching their wings. There are also a larger number of seasoned officers who are not out screwing with people just because "they can."

Just as with anything, those people make names for themselves and it usually burns them in the not-so-long run.

Your absurd blanket statement is not only incorrect, but extremely offensive. Forum-Jockeys are the best liars out there, ask Brad Paisley.

Long story short... If you are not doing something stupid and some rookie asks you for a Form 1 or 4 while you're at the range, save yourself some time and hassle by showing it to him. First, school his ass, then call and tell his supervisor what his off-duty activities for the day consisted of.

If you are traveling from point A to point B and commit a traffic violation and the investigating officer asks you if you have documentation for your NFA item, show him! Most states fall back on the Federal NFA laws to determine legality of the weapon. If you can show that you are in compliance than what sense does it make not to???

It will save a lot of time and money and stupid, useless court time.

...My .35 Cents.</div></div>

We need more officers like you. Thanks for your service.

Mike

 

[KYS]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

No.... not you. Im just reading this and actually can't believe some of the logic or lack there of. All of this is easily avoidable by showing the document you waited for so long for. Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?

And the LE side that you would actually sit there and harass patrons of a range that you frequent with other shooters because of how they look. That those same people may be in illegal possession of an NFA item and you want to play ATF Jr Cop and hold someone up because "they might be suspicious".

I just don't see the reasoning behind all of this. Take the path of least resistance!

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Something for the brain gears to grind on:
The city of KC installed these stop light cameras to capture red light runners and make us all super safe and no one will ever die or even get in a crash at a stop light now.

It's great. The city and the company that is contracted to operate and maintain the cameras are making cash hand over fist. Great business model. Wish I came up with it. But on to the good part.

Problem for the tax payers: The rate of rear end crashes has increased because people are jamming their brakes to avoid the $100 ticket that is tied to the owner of the car, not the operator.

Problem for the city: The cities constitution puts the burden of proof on the police department, meaning an officer has to witness the violation first hand.

So how does one get out of a stop light life saver ticket? Plea not guilty. The city drops the charge because they can not prove you were operating the vehicle. If the city lets it go to trial they will loose and the stop light life saver cameras go by-by and this great business model begins to be not so great.

Just another example of how government entities try to get you to prove you innocent rather than them proving you are guilty while sucking out of you your hard earned money.

How does this relate to LEO's asking for NFA TAX STAMPS? I have to prove that I'm innocent in order to, at the very least, not ruin my day.

The new definition of Freedom: Prove your innocence or face jail time.

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No.... not you. Im just reading this and actually can't believe some of the logic or lack there of. All of this is easily avoidable by showing the document you waited for so long for. Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?

And the LE side that you would actually sit there and harass patrons of a range that you frequent with other shooters because of how they look. That those same people may be in illegal possession of an NFA item and you want to play ATF Jr Cop and hold someone up because "they might be suspicious".

I just don't see the reasoning behind all of this. Take the path of least resistance! </div></div>

I see.

 

[m21black]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Funny how these "LEO" here want to check out paper work at a range but don't screw with criminals. No wonder why the American people have no rspect for cops anymore.

 

[oneyardstare]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

Well, I´m not from the States and suppressors are an not so clear thing here, everybody uses them, albiet they are a very difficult subject. I do not like it being pulled over and or asked for anything by the police, but I do so anyways. Although not being verbally explicit in any ways they know I do not like it, even though police officers say and feel that they are just doing their job by upholding the law.

The police and the person the police is talking to have to understand eachother boundaries. And respect is the key-word there.

 

[sgtsmmiii]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Skunk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ever hear of a Terry Stop? Look up Terry v. Ohio and see what the Supreme Court said about brief detentions. </div></div>

You need to read Terry v. Ohio to see what the requirements / restrictions are.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?
</div></div>

No, and I don't know anyone who is. It is ridiculous for a suppressor to be considered a weapon and subject to a tax in the first place but, that is a topic for another thread.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All of this is easily avoidable by showing the document you waited for so long for. Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?

.........Take the path of least resistance! </div></div>

No. I'm not proud the "gub-mint" has stripped my/our rights from us, forcing us to file all kinds of paperwork, wait months and months, and pay a tax to have something I had every right to own and possess to begin with.

The founders did not take the path of least resistance.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?
</div></div>

No, and I don't know anyone who is. It is ridiculous for a suppressor to be considered a weapon and subject to a tax in the first place but, that is a topic for another thread. </div></div>

Well said, the whole process is retarded. It took a lot of my time and my hard earned money to get it, sure don't want any LEO harassing me about it either. Much better things for them to do with their time than some of the BS I'm reading here.

Now I would not mind one bit to take a few mintues of my range time to talk to a respectful LEO and educate them on said retarded process or what my gear is and how it works.

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?
</div></div>

No, and I don't know anyone who is. It is ridiculous for a suppressor to be considered a weapon and subject to a tax in the first place but, that is a topic for another thread. </div></div>

Well said, the whole process is retarded. It took a lot of my time and my hard earned money to get it, sure don't want any LEO harassing me about it either. Much better things for them to do with their time than some of the BS I'm reading here.

Now I would mind one bit to take a few mintues of my range time to talk to a respectful LEO and educate them on said retarded process or what my gear is and how it works. </div></div>

Ya, I'm kind of on the same page. I'm proud of the fact that I earned the money to pay for the stamp but I'm not proud of the fact that I had to spend it on the stamp.

I wish you could go to Target or Walmart to buy Surefire's and Krinko's and just pay the regular sales tax.

 

[346ci]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Sake</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Are you not proud of going thru the wait and paying the tax?
</div></div>

No, and I don't know anyone who is. It is ridiculous for a suppressor to be considered a weapon and subject to a tax in the first place but, that is a topic for another thread. </div></div>

Well said, the whole process is retarded. It took a lot of my time and my hard earned money to get it, sure don't want any LEO harassing me about it either. Much better things for them to do with their time than some of the BS I'm reading here.

Now I would mind one bit to take a few mintues of my range time to talk to a respectful LEO and educate them on said retarded process or what my gear is and how it works. </div></div>

Ya, I'm kind of on the same page. I'm proud of the fact that I earned the money to pay for the stamp but I'm not proud of the fact that I had to spend it on the stamp.

I wish you could go to Target or Walmart to buy Surefire's and Krinko's and just pay the regular sales tax. </div></div>

Yup, the thing that gets me is why it takes so long. There are several thousand forms going through each month, if not more. Either those guys get paid damn good money or it goes into a pocket somewhere never to be seen again. At $200 a pop, that adds up very quick.

 

[insectguy]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yup, the thing that gets me is why it takes so long. There are several thousand forms going through each month, if not more. Either those guys get paid damn good money or it goes into a pocket somewhere never to be seen again. At $200 a pop, that adds up very quick.</div></div>

The fees go into the general budget, not the ATF budget. I work for a .gov, and we can assess civil penalties against a certain type of corporation, but again, the money goes into the general budget. The idea is for an agency to be independent of the funding, not taking actions based upon how much they supplement their budgets.

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not misrepresenting anything. We can argue semantics over the words/phrases "shaken down" and "papers" all day.</div></div>We don't have to do that: That's what definitions are for. 'Papers' is a noun. 'Shaken down' is not a thing. The meanings are not the same. Asking someone for something and shaking them down for that same thing is not the same thing.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Creature</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What you are arguing is that if I don't "give the officer a reasonable and articulable suspiscion that they do not exist" then he has the right to detain me/strip me of my liberty.</div></div>That's not what I am arguing. Nowhere did I argue that. CJ is correct: You are playing fast and loose with the facts of this Thread.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The patrol officer is not investigating or enforcing federal tax law, he is enforcing state law prohibiting the <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illegal</span></span> possession of silencers. </div></div>Fixed it for you.

</div></div>Thanks, but that's not correct. The law in Texas (that CJ is enforcing) prohibits possession. It's the prohibition in the law that makes possession illegal; not the other way around. Proper possession according federal law is a defense.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The patrol officer is not investigating or enforcing federal tax law, he is enforcing state law prohibiting the <span style="color: #CC0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Illegal</span></span> possession of silencers. </div></div>Fixed it for you.

</div></div>Thanks, but that's not correct. The law in Texas (that CJ is enforcing) prohibits possession. It's the prohibition in the law that makes possession illegal; not the other way around. Proper possession according federal law is a defense.

</div></div>
That makes sense. (not really)

Well, you misspelled "suspicion" and I fixed that too.

 

[thewileyone]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

My opinion is that if you are shooting a Class 3 item on a PUBLIC range, then you better know your laws and have your paperwork if necessary. We were shooting on a public range and one of my buddies had an auto rifle and I had an ar. Our "nosey neighbor" didn't think it was legal to own and called the police. They showed up and talked to us, one of the locals didn't really know the laws so it was good that my buddy had his paperwork...then "nosey" came over to order the police to seize our weapons because they were "illegal". "Nosey" also thought that all black rifles were illegal and automatics...to include my AR. So now I try to shoot during the week when possible or on a private range...less headaches.

My opinion is that it is better to have more than necessary paperwork to prove that you are right and to know the laws, or maybe you just have nothing better to do than to spend hours on end at the police station answering questions as to why/how you got that item and its purpose. Me, I would rather spend time on the range and relax... I understand police station interrogation rooms are not a fun way to spend the day.

 

[The Gump]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insectguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yup, the thing that gets me is why it takes so long. There are several thousand forms going through each month, if not more. Either those guys get paid damn good money or it goes into a pocket somewhere never to be seen again. At $200 a pop, that adds up very quick.</div></div>

The fees go into the general budget, not the ATF budget. I work for a .gov, and we can assess civil penalties against a certain type of corporation, but again, the money goes into the general budget. The idea is for an agency to be independent of the funding, not taking actions based upon how much they supplement their budgets. </div></div>

Either way, being forced to pay for the stamp is b.s. And submitting to the bureaucracy is even more b.s.... But that's the rules, right?

 

[pwc001]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Sake</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: insectguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 346ci</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Yup, the thing that gets me is why it takes so long. There are several thousand forms going through each month, if not more. Either those guys get paid damn good money or it goes into a pocket somewhere never to be seen again. At $200 a pop, that adds up very quick.</div></div>

The fees go into the general budget, not the ATF budget. I work for a .gov, and we can assess civil penalties against a certain type of corporation, but again, the money goes into the general budget. The idea is for an agency to be independent of the funding, not taking actions based upon how much they supplement their budgets. </div></div>

Either way, being forced to pay for the stamp is b.s. And submitting to the bureaucracy is even more b.s.... But that's the rules, right? </div></div>

Exactly, as long as we are "good little sheep" we won't get in trouble, and we don't have to worry. Just obey, obey, obey...

 

[Graham]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly, as long as we are "good little sheep" we won't get in trouble, and we don't have to worry. Just obey, obey, obey... </div></div>Obeying the law is what keeps you out of trouble. Being good is optional, and a moral question. Obey, obey, obey is the method by which we get NFA items in the first place, so it makes little sense to complain about having to do it when you have already done it and are enjoying the benefits. As for being 'sheep', that has nothing to do with giving an officer what he needs to leave you alone when he is obligated to inquire about you but would rather be somewhere else.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">CJ,
Jedi, an officer doesn't need reasonable suspicion to ask for a Form 4. </div></div>

The issue is he is doing this off duty and there fore is not
acting as an officer but rather way over reaching his authority which when off duty is zero

My gear is all on trust forms so how will you identify me as legal owner?, no photo on trust
Not a traffic stop so not going to show ya my drivers license or any other kind of photo ID
In fact as you not in uniform or on duty your probably going to get a polite NO

 

[Mschloss]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pwc001</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly, as long as we are "good little sheep" we won't get in trouble, and we don't have to worry. Just obey, obey, obey... </div></div>Obeying the law is what keeps you out of trouble. Being good is optional, and a moral question. Obey, obey, obey is the method by which we get NFA items in the first place, so it makes little sense to complain about having to do it when you have already done it and are enjoying the benefits. As for being 'sheep', that has nothing to do with giving an officer what he needs to leave you alone when he is obligated to inquire about you but would rather be somewhere else. </div></div>

This all goes back to the original question of who "is obligated to inquire." Unfortunately in Texas (of all places) there seems to be a some question as to what rules apply. I still interpret the National Firearms Act to cover ony BATF as the agency with jurisdiction.

If I was enjoying a day at the range with my suppressor and was hassled by whomever, I would at least impact their day as well by making them do some work before I showed them anything. If a LEO wants to act in his/her professional capacity, then I will at least be treated like I should under the law. If that means a call to a superior officer or even ATF so be it.

Ultimately, I would just show them my stamp before ending up in cuffs if it came to that.

As a side note, there is an interesting story that has made the papers in Norfolk, VA. Open carry in VA is legal. One individual won a lawsuit against the police department for his arrest and demand for social security info. I think this clearly applies to NFA concerns (at least in my locality). <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">Virginia prohibits local municipalities from regulating firearms </span></span>(gotta love VA). Here is a link to the story:

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/12/norfolk-pay-15000-harborfest-gun-arrest-case

So far, all the interest in my suppressor has been nothing but positive.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Who can ask for papers?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Now you guys are making this up as you go along. I dont think I ever said that did I?? </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gawd I wish you were in Texas. I'd love to give you your destiny.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SniperCJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Profiling? Yeah probably, but Ill ask anyway. or at least I'llmake a phone call to someone in uniform who will ask.</div></div>

So it seems

Stag15m4
Excellent post, exactly what many here hoped to hear vs response of CJ