Why AI?
- Thread starter Hecouldgoalltheway
- Start date
…i need to stop drinking now.
God i’d love one. But AI ATs keep climbing in price. To the point where a 700 smithed up to an M40 getting same accuracy is a cheaper solution. Last lefty AT was like $7500 and the new offerings from AI seem to be straying away from the old tried and true.
Accuracy isn’t the only thing.
There’s a reason AI / cadex / trg / trash can mrad cost what they do
I get that. Luckily my old poor 700s keep trucking no failures. Though i have seen some remmys fail. Like i say id love an AI. But finding a lefty is a pain. Id also like the AT over the axsr.
The used AT used to just sit in the px. Got the one above for just over $3k. Since discontinuation they seem to keep climbing in the px. As we figured they would.
Used AT are selling for more money than used ATX it seems
My complaints:
Overpriced
Proprietary Attachment system/Triggers (see also Overpriced).
AI told me to pound sand when I asked about getting barrel specs for my smith.
My non-complaints:
the fucker shoots.
Stupid people complain about bolt lift. Its never been an issue for me.
In todays world/market: A custom action build is a better bet from a high class smith in the stock/chassis of your choice. Market caught AI, they aren't offering anything different except more $$$. They aren't bad. But if I can get the same features and reliability for 2k less, I'm gonna take that option.
Overpriced
Proprietary Attachment system/Triggers (see also Overpriced).
AI told me to pound sand when I asked about getting barrel specs for my smith.
My non-complaints:
the fucker shoots.
Stupid people complain about bolt lift. Its never been an issue for me.
In todays world/market: A custom action build is a better bet from a high class smith in the stock/chassis of your choice. Market caught AI, they aren't offering anything different except more $$$. They aren't bad. But if I can get the same features and reliability for 2k less, I'm gonna take that option.
Regarding barrel specs, that's pretty standard. Defiance wont give anyone a tenon print for their actions. Their position is any gunsmith worth their salt can figure it out.
Can we revisit the part you were talking about COD players? The thing is; every sentence ends with a “those cod players” is a losing argument.
So lets take a deep dive.
Clearly you can read; and somewhat form coherent sentences using an electronic device. So you are not stranger to computers….
What happened with the cod player? What really damaged you? ARE you sure it was a COD player?
Unless you had this trauma with an actual gamer; i do not see how a person that plays video games is relevant to this conversation.
However we can group therapy here and walk you through this. Let us help you.
You're welcome to revisit whatever parts of whatever I've posted whenever you want...Doesn't make a shit to me. But what I do find funny, is that you're butthurt about my comments about how a lot of grown men who play video games like to LARP about some "boogaloo" scenario that will probably never happen in our lifetime...
Copy... You like video games. More power to you...Go enjoy your video games, do what makes you happy. But that doesn't change the facts in what I said.
Well then Defiance is stupid too. And I will note that they didn't say "Have your gunsmith measure it" (Even though he did). What's the point of a barrel change system if you don't tell everyone the specs. That's fucking obtuse.
I've bought three AIs, and sold two, here in the last 8 months. '14 AX, '22 Fixed AT and '19 Folder AT that I'm going to hold on to.
I will not ever be without one going forward. For me it's one less thing to worry about when I'm out hunting or shooting steel. It's flat out going to work. I don't compete in PRS yet, but when I do later this year I'll be using the AT without a doubt.
I will not ever be without one going forward. For me it's one less thing to worry about when I'm out hunting or shooting steel. It's flat out going to work. I don't compete in PRS yet, but when I do later this year I'll be using the AT without a doubt.
Attachments
Many custom actions are proving out to be every bit as reliable as an AI.
The advantage AI has over custom rifles is the control in tolerances and design over all the components. It's a system, not just an action.
But new components and actions have come a long ways. For the type of shooting 99% of us here do, a well built custom will be every bit as reliable as an AI.
Nah i could have gone along with most of the things you said until you categorized bunch of people in a distasteful manner. You have a messaging problem. Nothing is wrong with larping, playing video games and simultaneously owning a gun.
I bet you get on arf and fight KAC people. Hey maybe that is your turn on who knows…
or just maybe, mayybeeeee you are a fudd…
This is 100% what happens to me at every match in whatever shooting discipline I do. I know I'm better than some, but there's some true talent out there.
Actually, people who buy AI's would be more Boomer/Fudd than people who don't, based simply upon AI's time frame of heaviest service use and their "glory days" when they were the top dog. And no, I don't get on ARFcom... Never have, never will.Nah i could have gone along with most of the things you said until you categorized bunch of people in a distasteful manner. You have a messaging problem. Nothing is wrong with larping, playing video games and simultaneously owning a gun.
I bet you get on arf and fight KAC people. Hey maybe that is your turn on who knows…
I'll be happy to offer my AW for any dirt/sand/ice/snow/parachute jump comparison vs any of those modern custom actions.
I owned customs and know pretty well which one is going down first. Anyone assuming a Remington 700 type action equals an AI is the only one butthurt in here. A Defiance might be way higher quality than a standard Remmy, however, it is still a Remmy.
Friends deviance went down with a broken extractor after 2000 rounds.
If my life depended on it, i'll pick the AI and move on.
I owned customs and know pretty well which one is going down first. Anyone assuming a Remington 700 type action equals an AI is the only one butthurt in here. A Defiance might be way higher quality than a standard Remmy, however, it is still a Remmy.
Friends deviance went down with a broken extractor after 2000 rounds.
If my life depended on it, i'll pick the AI and move on.
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The Badger action is a knock off of the AI. I wouldn’t say it’s as good, but still a quality action.
I don’t know of anything else really comparable
I don’t know of anything else really comparable
How many SH'ers are doing parachute jumps with rifles they purchased?
I'm assuming very, very few.
Depends on what you want to do.
For the vast majority of what SHers do, almost any of the top actions perform comparably (or even better, in some cases).
What can an AI do at a PRS match that a Mausingfield can't, for example? Or a Lone Peak? Or a Impact? Etc.
I assume....none?
People ask what makes the AI better, it is exactly that. Now if you dont take advantage of these attributes it is your business.
Accuracywise i agree that the newer customs with match grade barrels offer the same. Its their durability that sets the AI/TRG apart.
Impact, Lone Peak, CDG, Zeus. I’d say they’re all as good or better than an AI action.
Meh I hear at those matches with wind and talc powder dust the AIs run the customs lock up
I have 2 rifles that I would not want to be with out , both are OLD , one is a Parker Hale M85 & the other is a AI AW , it took a long time to get around to these 2 .
I went thru a phase as a Sako Fan boy , thru the then new TRG-21 & the TRG-41 with 42 brake & Reflex can & later a TRG-22 , at this stage the AIs where double the price of a TRG , and I justified IT , that the AIs where not worth the premium price .
I did get to know the improvements done to the original 21/41 , these where mods done to make it acceptable for use with the Finnish Army , basically making most things a bit stronger to handle the abuse dished out by the soldiers & to make it a softer recoiling rifle , big brake & stability with a low C of G bipod etc . The TRG-42 came into service with Finland around 2000 .
The Sako is a accurate , lightweight rifle , BUT its not as robust as a AI , thats a weight & design thing .
I have had issues jams with the 21/22 models , I put it down to the Sten gun like mag , ie 2 into 1 feed , however never had an issue with the 41/42 in 338LM , but then that is a 5 rd single posn mag and not a 10rd mag .
Used others from Surgeons , 700s , and took about 10 wasted yrs to finally get to a AI AW , when that happened I had my first actual experience of using the AW , and the 1st thing I did was go shoot it , put the mag in , worked the bolt , BUT then thought ITs TOO smooth , and I believed that I had actually chambered thin air , ie that the bolt had slid over the top of the round .
Sure I had nothing in the chamber , I opened the bolt back up , only to eject a live round , thats a user induced error , one I never did again , when in doubt , read the manual , on one of the 1st few pages , it mentioned , that its so SMOOTH you will think it has not chambered a round .
Then I sold all the TRGs ,
Sorry Sako boys
There are 2 things that are correct criticisms , weight & cost , But they are the only ones , and in this World , you usually get what you pay for , its just the way things are .
Would I like them to be lighter , hell Yes , and cheaper hell Yes , But thats just a Fairy tale , unless you stack more coin on it , and like use a TI action and some other TI parts , sort of like the AW50F made for the Germans .
You know you have a good design , when the GERMANs buy it ( even when they donot want too ) , & the Russians buy it ( KGB ), and the Americans buy it ( you know the special 10rd 300WM mags for AI AWM , used by a certain group that is nameless ).
Its a unique blend of a rifle that is basically as accurate as a target rifle , but not fragile or finicky , and thats the hard part .
Its like a race car that can last more than 500 miles , Rare.
I was for at least 10yrs a denier of reality , why because I had never used one , just hated on them for the price & un availability .
Most people talking in this thread , have never seen , let alone handled a AI AW , so their views are from a position of no actual experience of the system .
I went thru a phase as a Sako Fan boy , thru the then new TRG-21 & the TRG-41 with 42 brake & Reflex can & later a TRG-22 , at this stage the AIs where double the price of a TRG , and I justified IT , that the AIs where not worth the premium price .
I did get to know the improvements done to the original 21/41 , these where mods done to make it acceptable for use with the Finnish Army , basically making most things a bit stronger to handle the abuse dished out by the soldiers & to make it a softer recoiling rifle , big brake & stability with a low C of G bipod etc . The TRG-42 came into service with Finland around 2000 .
The Sako is a accurate , lightweight rifle , BUT its not as robust as a AI , thats a weight & design thing .
I have had issues jams with the 21/22 models , I put it down to the Sten gun like mag , ie 2 into 1 feed , however never had an issue with the 41/42 in 338LM , but then that is a 5 rd single posn mag and not a 10rd mag .
Used others from Surgeons , 700s , and took about 10 wasted yrs to finally get to a AI AW , when that happened I had my first actual experience of using the AW , and the 1st thing I did was go shoot it , put the mag in , worked the bolt , BUT then thought ITs TOO smooth , and I believed that I had actually chambered thin air , ie that the bolt had slid over the top of the round .
Sure I had nothing in the chamber , I opened the bolt back up , only to eject a live round , thats a user induced error , one I never did again , when in doubt , read the manual , on one of the 1st few pages , it mentioned , that its so SMOOTH you will think it has not chambered a round .
Then I sold all the TRGs ,
Sorry Sako boys
There are 2 things that are correct criticisms , weight & cost , But they are the only ones , and in this World , you usually get what you pay for , its just the way things are .
Would I like them to be lighter , hell Yes , and cheaper hell Yes , But thats just a Fairy tale , unless you stack more coin on it , and like use a TI action and some other TI parts , sort of like the AW50F made for the Germans .
You know you have a good design , when the GERMANs buy it ( even when they donot want too ) , & the Russians buy it ( KGB ), and the Americans buy it ( you know the special 10rd 300WM mags for AI AWM , used by a certain group that is nameless ).
Its a unique blend of a rifle that is basically as accurate as a target rifle , but not fragile or finicky , and thats the hard part .
Its like a race car that can last more than 500 miles , Rare.
I was for at least 10yrs a denier of reality , why because I had never used one , just hated on them for the price & un availability .
Most people talking in this thread , have never seen , let alone handled a AI AW , so their views are from a position of no actual experience of the system .
Yeah , Fun fact , both the PH M85 & the AI AW use the same factory bipod , basically a Parker Hale bipod .
Isn't Impact's (and Lone Peak too I guess) whole thing that they will run in exactly that moondust environment?
The LFP may be why the lack of interest. People don’t realize you can have LRI bush the bolt as well but it adds a little bit of expense of course. Maybe add that to the ad
Add some better pics outside. It will show the camo pattern better and be more appealing to the eyes
Target pics help as well if you have them
I’d have bought yours weeks ago if I was in a position to do so, but right now I’m just not.
Would take it right away....im from germany though
A few years ago on here there was a thread and guys were talking about how tough their various custom rifles were and reliable. Tom Irwin from AINA offered to test anyone's rifle against an Ax or At in 2 story drops and enviromental tests, pretty sure that thread just went quiet, lmao.
This Democrat inflation is killing everyone.
Bet seeing the real books of guns companies / car company’s etc would be mind blowing Lot more sales than ever before.
Let’s not pretend these custom rifles are on par with military grade rifles like the AI in terms of toughness or reliability in adverse conditions
I think when it comes to things like bolt lift and certain ergonomics that yes a custom shines above the AI in those areas for most
But let’s be realistic about the rest.
The double stack mags are best in the business. Other actions run AICS or struggle with AW mags for the most part. Yes there are exceptions but the AW feed smoother and your not messing with mag lips on the AICS.
I’ve seen countless triggers go down even in fclass matches. Jewel/trigger tech etc. the original AI is a much more reliable platform
We’re comparing a epoxied/4 screw torqued action vs standard chassis bolted options. As pointed out above by those tests which one you think will win?
I’ve seen scope base screws shear completely off of R700 action. With the AI your lucky to break it if you try
Calling a custom a better gun may be realistic in terms of comfort and features like triggers/actions/chassis etc and much cheaper
But it’s not the same toughness level or built for the same applications
Like comparing a Lamborghini vs a Peterbuilt. Both have their tasks and do them well however
I own both
I think when it comes to things like bolt lift and certain ergonomics that yes a custom shines above the AI in those areas for most
But let’s be realistic about the rest.
The double stack mags are best in the business. Other actions run AICS or struggle with AW mags for the most part. Yes there are exceptions but the AW feed smoother and your not messing with mag lips on the AICS.
I’ve seen countless triggers go down even in fclass matches. Jewel/trigger tech etc. the original AI is a much more reliable platform
We’re comparing a epoxied/4 screw torqued action vs standard chassis bolted options. As pointed out above by those tests which one you think will win?
I’ve seen scope base screws shear completely off of R700 action. With the AI your lucky to break it if you try
Calling a custom a better gun may be realistic in terms of comfort and features like triggers/actions/chassis etc and much cheaper
But it’s not the same toughness level or built for the same applications
Like comparing a Lamborghini vs a Peterbuilt. Both have their tasks and do them well however
I own both
I'm not even that invested in this argument but a lot of the mudslinging about custom actions feels like it's coming from 2015.
I think the disconnect is that the people on SH (generally speaking, not all) are not using their rifles in conditions that would cause issues for either platform. And opining about hypothetical situations where your gun falls off a two story building is very weird for people who are not in very specific parts of the military.
We now have adjustable height magazine catches like in the ACC Elite or MDT M5 bottom metal for tuning the feeding reliability of two lug actions. I feel like the "custom actions don't run AW magazines as well" angle is losing a lot of traction. Even more so with 3 lug actions using 6 o'clock lugs like the ARC CDG for instance.
This is probably one of the strongest arguments. The triggers for R700 rifles do not have the reliability of other platforms, especially in extreme conditions. Though you may not have to go AI for that reliability, as a lot of Tikka or Sako guys would claim.
A nearly nonexistent problem for modern custom actions, as they almost all have integral scope bases and recoil lugs. Again this seems like a dunk from 2015.
I’ve been looking for that thread. Got a link?
Not weird. Just extreme to prove a more mundane point. It’s like torture tests that involve driving over a rifle with a truck. That doesn’t happen too often either but it still illustrates sturdiness.
IMHO for 223, 6br and maybe up to 308 based cases you can make a nicer and reliable custom action if you listen to the right people and stick with combinations that are known to work. However there are a lot of custom actions out there that are not reliable and a thousand different components that can be assembled in millions of combinations that will result in frustration and failures.
Idk what it is with shooters mental state and delusions, but several times I have been ROing a stage and watch a dude have feed or ejection problems and clear it and after the stage I ask about it and he’ll say his action runs 100% and never malfunctions. It’s like people go buzzer dumb and don’t realize their gun sucks. I just don’t trust first person anecdotes at all anymore. I don’t believe a lot of the actions are as reliable as their owners believe.
But for magnums, 300s and up, I don’t think there’s an option that is better than the AI. And the competitors are also pretty pricy (some more, some less).
My only comment to that would be - how relevant is that to any percentage of shooters here on SH?
Who here is buying rifles that need to withstand that kind of punishment?
AI's are awesome, but they are built for a different mission than almost everyone here is buying a rifle for. Nothing wrong with using an AI for these purposes, they are great rifles. But these arguments are pretty silly in today's day and age.
My response was more directed at people who claim the custom is just as reliable as the AI platform. Yes is most shooting conditions and the majority of shooters it is.
But what you’re paying for in terms of AI reliability is that extra toughness that maybe a small percentage of shooters will ever actually need. For some people they need or just want that extra toughness. Whether they need it or not.
The same arguments come up when you set an Athlon Cronus next to a NF ATACR. For most they’ll never notice anything but the extra weight of the NF and probably prefer the features of the Athlon. But they’re not the same in terms of toughness
That's a whole other parallel can of worms. The Rokslide guys who do drop-testing and durability testing for zero retention with scopes get ridiculed here on SH. I would hope guys using AI's are using similarly rugged scopes and scope mounts too.
I guess for me (not that what I think matters at all) I'm on board with guys choosing AI for ultra-durability as long as they actually take durability seriously. Otherwise it's just LARPing to talk about that stuff. A rifle that can be dropped off a two-story building is great but won't help much if the scope won't retain zero from a 3 foot drop (and many of them won't).
I've shot courses and saw courses that use a tower or 2nd story platform. Would you bet several thousand that your rifle maybe, possibly could handle a fall vs knowing it won't hurt the rifle?
There's almost a weekly or bi-monthly thread on someone's 3 lug or mainly 2 lug custom action not working with aw, even with adj mag latch, so let's not pretend that issue is non-existant.
I'll defer to your experience on this, since I'm just a casual shooter/hunter and haven't even shot a PRS match. How many guys from those tower or 2nd story platforms knocked their rifles off? Is that a thing I need to be worried about? Did their scopes survive that?
I really hope they start making those triggers again.
I've never saw it happen, could it, maybe, depends on how many tactical pillows are around. I'd say a scope rezeeo or swap would be needed. My point, and maybe it's not needed, is the guys that say my custom is just as tough as an AI, then say something like that isn't needed. 1 rifle will handle it and ready to back it up, the others "probably" could, but don't want to try. I don't want to throw my AIs, badgers, nuke, or solus off a building, so I suppose I'm guilty of not wanting to try, lol.
I don't remember the thread, it's been several yrs ago maybe 5.
That 2nd paragraph is important, but in reality is there any scope and mount that could take a fall, scope first under 15lb rifle from 20'. I doubt it, but stock/chassis or bolt handle damage is also a concern for some rifles. I'll gladly admit the 2 story drop test is probably not a thing for 99% of shooters(#metoo). My point in mentioning it was AINAs confidence in their rifle.
Nothing is invincible, everything fails with enough duty cycle. My atx has never failed me. My 700 clones have never failed me. I've put 10x more rounds through my 700 clones. Ai bolt handles break, the comp trigger fails. TT diamonds fail, BnA get full of shit and can fail. 700 clone can fail. My atx won't feed 6gt for shit from aw mags, but uses. My 700 clone ARC aics mags perfect. However my CDG runs 6gt from bone stock aw mags like it was born for it. AI has no advantage over the top end 700 clones. You're buying a name that has pedigree and notoriety, that's it. AI no longer has supremacy over anything, cept premium prices, they still up on top that list. I like my atx, but it does nothing my other rigs do, cept quick swap a barrel, but I don't do that much anymore.
It was just a passing thought about how there's not much concentration on SH on the actual weak point of the rifle/aiming system (the scope and scope mount retaining zero from drops/impacts). I'm just trying to articulate why a lot of this rifle durability stuff feels contrived. We've got pages here of people discussing outlandish scenarios their rifles could survive but I almost never see people talking whether their scopes would still be zeroed if their rifle was leaning up against something and fell. Or, as the Rokslide guys test, whether their rifle/scope setup would still be zeroed after a ride in the back of a truck through the mountains. I haven't had lunch yet and I'm rambling, just an observation I find odd.
I guess one thing the AI guys could brag about is better zero retention due to the chassis bonding. There's a couple threads here kicking around where guys talk about bedding their chassis because impacts to the barrel would result in POI change. I even heard Phil Cashin mention that bedding MPA chassis will benefit zero-retention.
Mines primary use is for killing deer on crop permits. But it’s set up with the bullet proof mindset. I don’t plan to shoot gun gamer events with it. It has a purpose and fulfills its role well. It’s also the main gun I’d grab in a shit hit the fan type of environment.
It’s never let me down and I’ve built a ton of confidence in that gun and my ability with it. I’m LE as well so it could be implemented if needed in that role.
This is specifically in regards to the green AT above. I also have an ATX. Feels more like a game gun so far. Has the comp trigger and isn’t bonded. I don’t have the confidence in that one that I do in my AT. I plan to trade it out or use as a target type gun like most customs referenced here are used for typically
Not that’s it’s any less reliable. But it’s not in my opinion built to the same rugged standards as past model AI’s are. The comp trigger has had its issues although for target shooting it’s a fantastic trigger. Also the thinner unbonded chassis has seen its issues for people. That’s not just coming from me that’s facts from guys who are much more invested into AI’s than me. I loctited mine.
This ATX is a game gun in my opinion. I didn’t pay ridiculous AI prices for it though. The ATX are going fairly priced on the used market now
My AI’s wear a NF ATACR 735 and a ZCO 527. I didn’t skimp on optics in this regard. I do however have spuhr mounts on them. Which could shatter apart at any given second
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