Thats what I do too. Support my local range and MDs regardless of affiliation
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Why we can't have nice things,
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This. Shoot whatever matches you want just don't pay for a membership. He thinks everyone that signs up are his servants instead of his customers.
People, Match Directors, and Sponsors start carrying on without the PRS 'brand' and things will be better all around.
Make Matches Fun Again '21
Speaking from the perspective of a MD. All this talk of trying to get people to avoid PRS matches will turn out badly for a lot of clubs and MDs. You'll have people who won't shoot your match because you are affiliated with the PRS, and people who won't shoot your match because you don't earn points towards the PRS.
At the end of the day its discouraging shooters.
So take the above advice and just go shoot, and have fun. Thats supporting your local club and MD. Don't pony up a membership if you dont want to support an organization.
At the end of the day its discouraging shooters.
So take the above advice and just go shoot, and have fun. Thats supporting your local club and MD. Don't pony up a membership if you dont want to support an organization.
That would be the market speaking, if they dont come because of your affiliation, maybe your match sucks.
If you feel the affiliation will limit participation go outlaw, that is the free market speaking see: CD, Guardian.
go look at the numbers posted online only 600 people shot a minimum of 3 matches, this idea the PRs is big is bullshit,
they may get sign ups, but the amount of people showing up is tiny, less than 2000 people all this is broken down and public
its a smoke show, sounds like more apologist bullshit to me,
a better match doesn’t need the series
when i went outlaw in 2012, and had matches between then and recently the PRS tried suppressing my turnout several times by stacking matches around me, in fact, one year they put on 4 matches the same day, i never had issue with participation. Today we are RTC and can run individuals or teams in the same event, and 100% of my cut is given back as cash prizes. I have not taken a dime from my matches in 4 years.
This is a cool new format from a match in Scotland. CD like with bonus points for time over some challenging terrain in a 1-day format. The 2nd day will be a separate
more traditional PRS match without movement. Pick your poison. Do either day or both days.
more traditional PRS match without movement. Pick your poison. Do either day or both days.
Attachments
As a newcomer to precision rifle & comps it's interesting to see behind the curtain. I've followed this thread & listened to the podcasts. The need for IPRF and it's purpose makes perfect sense to me.
Insomnia pipe dream follows:
I've had a few thoughts from a newb perspective. There's been several comparisons to NASCAR (develop venues) + complaints that current comps aren't really shooting as much as a gear race.........8 oz triggers, 25lb guns, 5 bags, tripod rear support etc.
I agree with both the above. It would be great if precision rifle matches were attractive to ranchers/land owners to want to host matches. It would be great if sponsors outside the gun industry could be brought in (like NASCAR). Sponsors like Monsanto, Case, International Harvester, Goya, Massey Ferguson, John Deer, Kubota etc. You get the idea. It would attract venues and vastly increase positive exposure to a wider (well targeted) audience.
Also like NASCAR it would be fucking awesome to see a sanctioning body like the IPRF do something similar to the IROC series. A finale or series of top shooters given identically prepared guns 12-15lbs, 6.5 Creedmoor, 2-3lb triggers, same scope, bipod, brake. All shoot same factory ammo.
They can move the scope, set LOP etc, but that's it. It would be a true test of shooters and fundamentals. Guns could be complete factory from Sako, Tika, Steyr (thinking IPRF here) etc. Or a build could be specified and give component manufacturers a chance to contribute parts. I can envision a pretty good ROI for that due to all the articles that would be written focused on one gun, brand, or build. The following season they go on the prize table 1 per match or something along that line. This would attract new shooters if they see top competitors not shooting 10K + rigs & the message it would send to new shooters is (you need to focus on fundamentals to compete at top level) vs invent a fucking air actuator for your trigger.
So much for the high highfalutin ideas.
My plans for this year are to shoot Geissele Gas gun challenge + Mason Dixon PR. Might try a NRL 22 match
If I travel to a 2 day match the most attractive to me would be the Hunter series or the Snipers Hide Cup.
And it's funny that Frank just brought up bringing pistols back. I just invested in a new pistol rig specifically with this in mind. I want them thrown in the mix & they do sprinkle them in for the Geissele challenge.
Bear with me on this point.
As someone new to all this I'm kind of aggravated at the gear I'm pushed towards if I want to actually be competitive at a match (I did not say compete).
I'm trying to build fundamentals & the guns below allow me to do that. I could make them heavier & lighten the triggers, but I don't want to. They should also be competitive, but they're not & that IMO has a lot to do with what's fucked up!
I've got 2 x 6.5 Creedmoor"s that shoot great. 1 is 13lb with 1.5lb trigger & the other is 15lb with a 2lb trigger. For Geissele matches DPMS 308 @ 11lb with 3.5lb trigger & .224 valkyre @ 9lb with 2.5lb trigger.
I will be competing with the above rifles. For now I don't really care that much where I finish, it's about improving.
But I know I'll get sick of being disadvantaged so I built a 6GT in a MCS TCS, TT Diamond, & 18-20lb. I Don't want to sound ungrateful here as I'm truly grateful to be gainfully employed & able to afford such expensive toys + the Gun is bad ass. Honestly though I will learn the least from this comp rifle & I'm more drawn to want to Grab one of the others for range day. Kind of formulating thoughts as I type this. It boils down to we need class for normal precision rifles. Why not tech the rifles in like they do in any form of car racing & then either assign a handy cap or class based on weight, caliber, trigger pull etc. I know this could be done & it would have a positive effect.
Insomnia pipe dream follows:
I've had a few thoughts from a newb perspective. There's been several comparisons to NASCAR (develop venues) + complaints that current comps aren't really shooting as much as a gear race.........8 oz triggers, 25lb guns, 5 bags, tripod rear support etc.
I agree with both the above. It would be great if precision rifle matches were attractive to ranchers/land owners to want to host matches. It would be great if sponsors outside the gun industry could be brought in (like NASCAR). Sponsors like Monsanto, Case, International Harvester, Goya, Massey Ferguson, John Deer, Kubota etc. You get the idea. It would attract venues and vastly increase positive exposure to a wider (well targeted) audience.
Also like NASCAR it would be fucking awesome to see a sanctioning body like the IPRF do something similar to the IROC series. A finale or series of top shooters given identically prepared guns 12-15lbs, 6.5 Creedmoor, 2-3lb triggers, same scope, bipod, brake. All shoot same factory ammo.
They can move the scope, set LOP etc, but that's it. It would be a true test of shooters and fundamentals. Guns could be complete factory from Sako, Tika, Steyr (thinking IPRF here) etc. Or a build could be specified and give component manufacturers a chance to contribute parts. I can envision a pretty good ROI for that due to all the articles that would be written focused on one gun, brand, or build. The following season they go on the prize table 1 per match or something along that line. This would attract new shooters if they see top competitors not shooting 10K + rigs & the message it would send to new shooters is (you need to focus on fundamentals to compete at top level) vs invent a fucking air actuator for your trigger.
So much for the high highfalutin ideas.
My plans for this year are to shoot Geissele Gas gun challenge + Mason Dixon PR. Might try a NRL 22 match
If I travel to a 2 day match the most attractive to me would be the Hunter series or the Snipers Hide Cup.
And it's funny that Frank just brought up bringing pistols back. I just invested in a new pistol rig specifically with this in mind. I want them thrown in the mix & they do sprinkle them in for the Geissele challenge.
Bear with me on this point.
As someone new to all this I'm kind of aggravated at the gear I'm pushed towards if I want to actually be competitive at a match (I did not say compete).
I'm trying to build fundamentals & the guns below allow me to do that. I could make them heavier & lighten the triggers, but I don't want to. They should also be competitive, but they're not & that IMO has a lot to do with what's fucked up!
I've got 2 x 6.5 Creedmoor"s that shoot great. 1 is 13lb with 1.5lb trigger & the other is 15lb with a 2lb trigger. For Geissele matches DPMS 308 @ 11lb with 3.5lb trigger & .224 valkyre @ 9lb with 2.5lb trigger.
I will be competing with the above rifles. For now I don't really care that much where I finish, it's about improving.
But I know I'll get sick of being disadvantaged so I built a 6GT in a MCS TCS, TT Diamond, & 18-20lb. I Don't want to sound ungrateful here as I'm truly grateful to be gainfully employed & able to afford such expensive toys + the Gun is bad ass. Honestly though I will learn the least from this comp rifle & I'm more drawn to want to Grab one of the others for range day. Kind of formulating thoughts as I type this. It boils down to we need class for normal precision rifles. Why not tech the rifles in like they do in any form of car racing & then either assign a handy cap or class based on weight, caliber, trigger pull etc. I know this could be done & it would have a positive effect.
Hi,
Except that as someone that runs a couple companies that has a vested interest in GROWING the precision rifle market; I would feel weird knowing I just showed up to shoot a match yet the MATCH itself had to pay the PRS organization for me being there.... In which is supporting an organization I purposely do not want to be associated with.
The fact that some MDs are "eating" that fee and not passing it onto the shooters should say something in itself....
The "just shoot the match without joining the organization" is akin to purposely having your wife buy from a store that wires money back to China Communist party. Then attempting the old "well I did not support the China Communist party directly" argument.....
The 5 guys that show up to shoot a match SPECIFICALLY because it is sanctioned PRS are easily replaceable if that MD goes "outlaw" match; so there is no harm to the MD for stepping up to the plate and being a direct action remedy to this entire "PRS" debacle.
Until they are ready to step up themselves and remedy this situation then they are just preaching to the choir to hear themselves complain.
The solution is in the MD and venues hands whether they like it or not.
Sincerely,
Theis
This shooter is going to continue attending matches, supporting the MDs and venues I enjoy, and having a good time enjoying the company of people I like shooting with. And I'll keep trying to do what I can to introduce our community to new shooters.
Whether or not I buy a PRS membership, I'm not going to boycott a MD I respect or a range I enjoy shooting at just because someone on the internet tells me to.
That’s why I said it was in the MDs court as shooters will still shoot. Never said boycott anything did I?
No, you didn't. You've been consistently saying that guys should just go shoot matches and ignore the higher level series drama.
I suppose I was responding more to some of the posts above yours, and so maybe shouldn't have quoted you.
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Let me just be clear that I'm not apologizing to you. I'm disagreeing with some of the things you say. There's a difference.
My club has been putting on precision rifle matches for 15 years. We have a picture of our first match in 2005 with our guys all in woodland fatigues shooting 308's and Win mags. We got a little more serious on the local level around 2012, and joined the PRS Regional Club Series in 2015. We have a healthy precision rifle community. We have sold out two beginners PRS classes, a precision rifle reloading class, and we have Jake Vibbert coming down to teach a class in a couple weeks. That sold out in a couple days, we opened a few more spots and those went in 15 minutes. All in the last 4 months. We have plenty of participation.
What we also have is a lot of guys who enjoy the PRS. They enjoy the points matches that rate them on a regional level against their peers, and they enjoy working towards a year end regional championship. We also have a half dozen guys who compete at the national 2 day matches, and enjoy that structure and level of achievement. The Finale is a goal they try to achieve.
None of those guys care what Shannon Kay says or does. None of those guys care about the opinions of people on Snipers Hide. They don't care about my opinion. They show up to shoot, they have some laughs and a good time, they go home. I dont have a reason to fix it by putting on an outlaw match to see who will and won't come. Its not a matter of "needing" the series. We participate because we enjoy it. Its just that simple.
Having said that, I have all the respect in the world for Scott @sstacllc. It sounds like the international shooters need this new league to ever have any legitimacy in their respective nations. He's a great choice to make that happen. I'm not speaking out against what Scott and the international shooters are trying to accomplish, I wish them the best. I'm just not anti-PRS.
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I live in New Zealand. PRS isn't here, there are several clubs doing that style of competition
But stay tuned for the instagram announcement of the Official suppository of the PRS for 2021
Hi,
Not really.
Name 1 single thing I have said that is incorrect.
Or do you and him operate in a world where what is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander?
Sincerely,
Theis
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Weren’t you leaving for the PRS Forum
Shannon loves loyalty — never asked for an apology, lol, I said you were an apologist for what has been done, note: talking out both sides of your mouth
The hedging is my favorite look, Defend the PRS, but make sure to kiss Scott’s ass without acknowledging the line of attack leveled against him. Which is, cute if you’re gonna play both sides without taking an actual stand.
I smell fear, the removal of the PRS label has you in panic, why else would you be here defending them, or is it about the schillings you bring in, dont want to risk that extra income.
You know, what made my job fun as an SDM instructor (before AMU stole it, who is the SDM equivalent of PRS it seems) really was that we sort of ran fun events like that after the KD and static UKD stuff. We'd find the best ranges and we'd come up with stuff. We had a Hogans Alley type thing that started out 600m, crawling through tunnels, smoke and sims, then moving through the streets where targets only became visible after reaching a certain point. Timed. Everyone used THE SAME SHIT. And it was FUN! So fun the snipers we used for adjunct instructors would come back as students. Best job ever, god I loved shooting and being on the range ALL day, some nights. The classes were run like a competition too, scores written down for individuals and teams each day. There were three categories, NM irons, NM optics, stress shoot totals. Did I say this shit was fun? All done with stock M4's and irons or ACOG, a Harris bipod and a modified M14 sling to be used like a leather 07.
Of course when I started having prototype DMR's made with FF barrels and donated KAC FF tubes, shit changed. I was untouchable (but not being a student I wasn't doing it for score). Enter the arms race, and THAT was where the SDM/DMR gear whore was born, and I helped father the fucker I guess --we were begging for better shit on day one. Military-wise it was a good thing, but apparently those same mechanics ruin shit in the civvie/mob world.
We were training SDM's BUT if you're really into shooting past a couple hundred meters this is the sort of thing that develops naturally! To keep it fun though it has to be kept out of the hands of megalomaniacs and narcissists.
I don't think you could have something where everyone uses the same shit today, in the civvie world, but I do think the idea of whatever finale is held that they do use supplied, identical gear. It's the only way. An MSRP based expenditure cap on gear could help too, spend it however you like but you only get $xxxx or whatever --that'll attract non-millionaires and others who can't keep up with the arms race and have to rely on their skills.
The arms race assholes really belong over in some kind of BR anyway where anything goes. I mean, that's what it sounds like they're trying to turn it into to me.
Of course when I started having prototype DMR's made with FF barrels and donated KAC FF tubes, shit changed. I was untouchable (but not being a student I wasn't doing it for score). Enter the arms race, and THAT was where the SDM/DMR gear whore was born, and I helped father the fucker I guess --we were begging for better shit on day one. Military-wise it was a good thing, but apparently those same mechanics ruin shit in the civvie/mob world.
We were training SDM's BUT if you're really into shooting past a couple hundred meters this is the sort of thing that develops naturally! To keep it fun though it has to be kept out of the hands of megalomaniacs and narcissists.
I don't think you could have something where everyone uses the same shit today, in the civvie world, but I do think the idea of whatever finale is held that they do use supplied, identical gear. It's the only way. An MSRP based expenditure cap on gear could help too, spend it however you like but you only get $xxxx or whatever --that'll attract non-millionaires and others who can't keep up with the arms race and have to rely on their skills.
The arms race assholes really belong over in some kind of BR anyway where anything goes. I mean, that's what it sounds like they're trying to turn it into to me.
I'm assuming you didn't create stupid and unrealistic rules to follow for the students? You let them think and adapt to the situation, and shoot it as they formulated a plan and improvised with what they had on hand?
I see as we evolved in PR over the years, both MDs and many shooters don't like people thinking outside the box, and improvising. They start crying that it's unfair that someone came along and shot the stage differently than they did. My answer always is, you should of thought about it first.
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Depends. There’s a difference in being creative and obviously circumventing the intent of the stage.
Though we’ve been doing this long enough, if an MD doesn’t want something to happen, they should write it in the cof.
I would mostly agree with your statement, however the road we've travel in many matches the past few years, like those in PRS and NRL, the "intent" often is a wild fantasy stage dreamed up or copied that shouldn't be in a match, especially one that purportedly is supposed to be a field match or practical in nature.
My heart burn with that style of match, just advertise it as a circus style event, so I don't waste my ammo and money shooting the match.
I've said it to often to many MDs... You have an infinite amount of land with natural terrain, and you have us shooting off of a bag full of beach balls, what were you thinking?
And he’s still here, the prs forum called and it want’s it village idiot back
As we used to say in the Marines, good to be hard, hard to be smart
As we used to say in the Marines, good to be hard, hard to be smart
Reminds me of watching my cat play with a mouse. Birddog guess which one you are? LOL
I was debating after the drama of the prs finale whether or not to shoot the prs Leupold classic and some here said not to waste my money since I was an average local shooter but had never done a 2 day match. Of all people Matt Alwine spoke up and said to do it and it was the best $300 spent. As a south texas guy I ended up shooting with Morgun King and Matt Alwine and several other amazing shooters. I basically got a two day lesson from several of the best shooters in the country. What a fantastic experience! Stop the whining and go shoot. Ignore the soap opera and have fun. Some folks have forgotten what most of us average shooters are doing and just trying to improve ourselves each time out.
I learned if there’s a cargo net stage they don’t like you to shoot it prone.
Its Frank's forum. I'm well aware of that. He gets to have his way here and few people risk having an opposing opinion or retaliating to his insults. And he has a slough of sycophants and ass-kissers that come standard to the position of being the HMFIC. They mash the Like button even when he makes idiotic statements.
But in spite of anything I say or Frank says, reality is that which exists even when you don't believe in it.
Calling me names and getting more riled up and insulting me isn't going to change that. That's not a valid argument, that's a defense mechanism from someone who has run out of anything else to say.
Insults people and trying to make the point that insulting him is "not a valid argument, that's a defense mechanism from someone who has run out of anything else to say." Hmmm........
Hi,
So is it too early for:
Jump Jump Jump Jump Jump........(Forum Suicide in 3, 2..)?
Sincerely,
Theis
So is it too early for:
Jump Jump Jump Jump Jump........(Forum Suicide in 3, 2..)?
Sincerely,
Theis
Haha, seriously? I've been on topic in 99% of my content. But in response I'm the village idiot, weak, apologist, and a handful of other things I have no desire to skim nine pages of threads to properly document in this post... and you highlight this response?
I point out one time that all the accumulated drivel directed towards me simply because I disagree with someone is textbook defensive behavior (which it is), and you think I'm being too insulting? Think maybe I'm being too hard on the guy??
Haha... ok... you're the moderator. Ill modify my behavior going forward
I personally don't give 2 shits about affiliations. I'll shoot what's within driving distance and support local MDs if possible. We have our own small club with about 15 members where we meet up at 1 of 3 ranges and have some fun. Low cost, round count under 60, and a good time.
Keep.doing what you’re doing! MDs are going to struggle this year with way less shooters. The more we get out and shoot the better it will be.
The comment right above yours is going to be a key item for matches in all shooting disciplines, round count.
I am not sure about that. Leopold classic had 180 at $300 a pop. people seem to like drama on this thread....it sells. I like to shoot and learn and improve.
I hope you’re right... lots of talk about people slowing up their shooting though this year if components don’t return to normal. The Altus match isn’t full yet and we are less than a month out from it, it used to sell out within a day or two.
Once upon a time, I heard a budding young, championship water ski competitor talk about skiing at the pro tour. Before “cruise control” (which is an electronic throttle control to maintain speed no matter how hard the skier pulled) the drivers would increase power over what was needed when the skier was pulling towards the jump. Then the driver would back down on power after the skier had launched off of the jump so that his time through the course was within tolerance.
The Young Skier stated; “they don’t care about the rules, they just want everyone to ski better.”
What one hell of a way to put on a show for the fans and make the jumpers feel good about themselves. Its all about marketing. The competitors liked the way they skied and the distances they were able to achieve and the other paying group, the spectators got to see a great show.
Never saw anyone complaining to the officials. Mad Maybe because they skied poorly but not because the organizers / officials / drivers did a bad job. It was about seeing people with smiles on their faces.
Water skiing is a hard sport. Guess what else is not easy? When people wake up and quit marrying themselves to the hard and fast “its my way or the highway” method of thinking, only then will a sport continue to be self sustaining over the long run.
to quote an old line, if any of this does not make sense, please ignore
The Young Skier stated; “they don’t care about the rules, they just want everyone to ski better.”
What one hell of a way to put on a show for the fans and make the jumpers feel good about themselves. Its all about marketing. The competitors liked the way they skied and the distances they were able to achieve and the other paying group, the spectators got to see a great show.
Never saw anyone complaining to the officials. Mad Maybe because they skied poorly but not because the organizers / officials / drivers did a bad job. It was about seeing people with smiles on their faces.
Water skiing is a hard sport. Guess what else is not easy? When people wake up and quit marrying themselves to the hard and fast “its my way or the highway” method of thinking, only then will a sport continue to be self sustaining over the long run.
to quote an old line, if any of this does not make sense, please ignore
My first match as well (SHC 2015)That was my first PRS match ever. I was an RO on stage B1, "the box".
It was a shit show when it came to some of the folks during the alibi period. But it still remains one of the most fun CoF's I've ever shot.
The car stage (E-2?), the mover and the "Tower of Power" still remain in my mind as epic stages...
The weather was brutal.
I was an RO on A1 with @Foul Mike. It was the positional stage that everyone hated. It also had a handgun element. I met some really great people that weekend but yeah the prize table and alibi periods were a train derailment.
I totally hosed that stage. 5 Mil revs on my scope (which was still common back then) and was a full rev off from the previous stage (which IIRC, was the long range, barrel prop, where you shot support side, top, and stong side). My offhand shots on your stage were all over the top of the targets. I remember thinking WTF, how can I be missing? Lol.
I learned a metric shit ton from that first national level match...
I think we can all agree there is a lot of equipment advancements and gaming going on, but if you look at the PRS finale from just this past year, what equipment won?
1. Rem 700 clone action, a relatively plain stock (Foundation), a 10+ year old scope design.
2. Same as above
4. Same as above
5. Same as above
6. Same as above, but with a Manners (and a medium palma barrel, only 16 pounds)
etc...
Coming full circle with it, a lot of guys are taking off their full 1.25" barrels and going back to something more manageable, switching to shorter barrels, going back to simple stocks from chassis' that have a million adjustments and attachments, ditching a big floppy game changer in favor of a smaller sand filled bag (I saw a guy win with a small homemade denim sandbag), and learning how to hold their rifles still without a bunch of extraneous support. While the big heavy guns, multiple bags, gamer plates, etc can certainly help the low/mid pack shooter, but it's not going to win against an adaptable shooter than can hold his gun still on his own, and make wind calls without having to ask the guy in front of him.
I personally think the gear race is virtually gone at the top level, it's not even worth mentioning. But I think the gear race is real at the low / mid pack level, and is slowing progress for most of them, and this is what I have issues with. The sooner they show up and learn how to adapt themselves to the stage vs dragging around a ton of mechanical supports, the faster they too will be competing at the top level. It's just going to require MD's to create stages that reward adaptability vs gaming.
Simple is adaptable, adaptable equals consistent, consistency wins.
Where's this "PRS Forum"?
It’s coming, they just didn’t turn it on yet, it will be a similar style as they used the same software.
I spoke with them for about 2 hours yesterday and the the cut to the chase answer is,
I am throwing in the white towel, you all win.
I don’t feel we agreed on a single question, I don’t see a single change happening, everything is grand, people are content, so who am I to question it... it was just a circular discussion. I really felt i was wasting everyone’s time and once that happens, its not worth it. Time is too short to waste on this anymore.
If you send me complaint, I will not open it, just be deleted. You’re welcome to discuss them all you want on SH, but my advise would be something else. The interest is not there, they only see success, so who are we to complain.
You all enjoy, I think I may just change the SHC to something I want to do, won’t be this year, it’s part of the RTC program as it’s been. I‘ll move the day to a time of a the year I can put more focus into it. Then just create the single event I might enjoy and forget the rest. Maybe make it invite only and not charge people or something silly, it can become a hangout, lol.
I’m Out, PEACE Shooter‘s —> no wind.
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