You guys really aren't trying to compare equal charge weights of 2 different powders?
and calling one 'Slow'?
and calling one 'Slow'?
New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder
- Thread starter padom
- Start date
Go back a few pages. I did some extensive testing with the 7-08 Ackley. Should help with giving you some ballpark figures
Right? There are a few posts that read that way. Just clarifying to make sure. Some of these posts are comparing max plus 4350 to low charge on the StaBALL then calling it slow. Are they meaning slower burn rate? These should be equal pressure (at least ish) loads to compare speeds.
I'm getting ready to work some up for a rifle and if this powder is as promised, I'd like to try it out.
Powder burn rate and energy density arent the same thing sorta like how current and voltage arent the same thing.
One can burn at a slower rate but have more or less energy output or vice versa for a faster burning powder. Burn rate is just one variable in a whole host of variables so guessing a comparative burn rate off a single sample isnt very enlightening.
With a single sample point you just dont know. Really you would want the max and min load of each and their velocities and pressures with an equal case and bullet to determine the relative speeds comparatively and then to do it again within all of the other variables in that cartridge to actually know.
It seems to me that rocket vapor is trying to get yall understand the actual scope of the issue and the verbage used in description vs just making claims off of an incomplete sampling.
Velocity produced ≠ burn rate
Last edited:
I don’t think there’s any evidence that the burn rate of StaBALL is lower than H4350. Supposedly they are very close. It is clear that the energy density of StaBALL is lower, and my comment above was really comparing a range of charges that were theoretically close to published max for both. I suspect the published data for StaBALL is more conservative which makes it appear slower.
it would be great to compare equal pressures but no one has a way to measure pressure.
Yes. Is that what he was trying to say? I couldn't tell.
I think people are using the term "slower" and "Faster" in different ways.
Grain for grain Stabil6.5 is "slower" than 4350 or RL16. As in it produces a slower velocity in a bullet using the same grain measurement of powder in a case.
Where it falls on the burn rate chart, it may be "faster" or "slower" burning than others.
The velocity it produces in a specifice cartridge before it reaches max pressure may be "faster" or "slower" than others.
Sorry, really didn't want to stir things up.
I've been looking over the Win published data for smaller cartridges.
With my 22N I've found pretty good results with CFE223 for bullets up to 75Amax (have a couple thousand for plinking) and IMR4350 (which I have) instead of H4350 (don't got) for 80/88ELD, 85RDF, and 90gr pointed Sierra's.
Just looking at the data, velocity at published max seems higher.
90gr
StaBall 6.5
32.3 2,889 53,500 PSI
H4350
29.2 2,742 53,600 PSI
IMR4350
29.4 2,742 52,900 PSI
Loaded long for 600/1000 yds an extra 150fps might be worth it.
Moving about in bullet weight StaBall 6.5 seems more predictable in cartridges the size of the 6.5C,
than say the 223, or even the 224V. The 22N data seems to flow smoother from weight to weight of projectile. At least they have some Min/Max values that seem to make sense.
I have an inherited 1903/Mark 1 .30-06 that I sometimes shoot but don't want to wear out.
I load IMR 4350 in it.
The published load for SB 6.5 (168gr) doesn't seem worth it and pressure is a little bit higher for the same Vel.
Nothing yet for my 6.5x55 Swede.
I've been looking over the Win published data for smaller cartridges.
With my 22N I've found pretty good results with CFE223 for bullets up to 75Amax (have a couple thousand for plinking) and IMR4350 (which I have) instead of H4350 (don't got) for 80/88ELD, 85RDF, and 90gr pointed Sierra's.
Just looking at the data, velocity at published max seems higher.
90gr
StaBall 6.5
32.3 2,889 53,500 PSI
H4350
29.2 2,742 53,600 PSI
IMR4350
29.4 2,742 52,900 PSI
Loaded long for 600/1000 yds an extra 150fps might be worth it.
Moving about in bullet weight StaBall 6.5 seems more predictable in cartridges the size of the 6.5C,
than say the 223, or even the 224V. The 22N data seems to flow smoother from weight to weight of projectile. At least they have some Min/Max values that seem to make sense.
I have an inherited 1903/Mark 1 .30-06 that I sometimes shoot but don't want to wear out.
I load IMR 4350 in it.
The published load for SB 6.5 (168gr) doesn't seem worth it and pressure is a little bit higher for the same Vel.
Nothing yet for my 6.5x55 Swede.
Last edited:
I spoke to the guys at Alamo precision about this a couple weeks ago and one of them up there said if you go chasing internet velocity you’re just gonna be disappointed with a burned out barrel. ALL my rifles always seem slow to everyone else’s
Sounds like a recipe to have self removing primers at the least.
I think a lot of people are missing the point. I can throw this with the dillon or redding throwers. No longer do I have to wait on the auto-trickler to throw one charge every 20 seconds.
Who cares if the energy density per weight is slower? It may very well need to be to get case fill to the point where it's going to be the most stable with a ball powder.
And it's scary how many guys here are acting like some of the characteristics are new. All ball powders have fill rates they're happy with. They're not stick powders and they don't throw like it either.
No I was making a reference to how everyone’s velocity seems higher than mine. Not staball in particular. Nothing to do with staball. Just “internet“ velocities. I’d take them with a grain of salt. Or who knows maybe it has something to do altitude. And barometric pressure Idk. All I know is in Dallas Texas my rifles are slow comparatively
That’s what I mean there are folks on this site and others saying they get better than that with the 147 class of bullets with 24” and under. idk if they are just lucky or dont care to fire brass more than once. All I know is 2800 is the max comfy load in mine with a 140 and I run 147 at 2725ish
If I could get similar precision with 90gr SB 6.5 loads, as 4350 (either brand) then the published velocity would give a 3mph wind error of about 1/2 an F-Class X-ring advantage.
I don't know about you guys I've had 10's really close to an X and 9's close to a 10.
(and an occasional 8 not close to nuthin).
Well, went ahead and ordered 4 lbs and some more primers from Midsouth.
A few dollars cheaper this time than Powder Valley.
I don't know about you guys I've had 10's really close to an X and 9's close to a 10.
(and an occasional 8 not close to nuthin).
Well, went ahead and ordered 4 lbs and some more primers from Midsouth.
A few dollars cheaper this time than Powder Valley.
Last edited:
A little more pressure testing with 6.5 Creedmoor and the Hornady 129 SP bullets. I seem to have hit an odd plateau in speed. There was definitely an outlier in 46.2 when I left the cartridge in the chamber a bit too long. I saw ejector swipes on a couple of cases at 46.2 and 46.4 but not consistently. Will probably load 45.8 and get rid of these bullets.
6 brx results [SJA 26" Proof, 1:7.5]...Labradar at 100yds. 45deg F, 6k above sea level. These were out of my rifle FWIW.
5rd strings.
36gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands ~ .4" group
36.3gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ this load sucked my nuttz 2" group
36.6gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ 5" group
5rd strings.
36gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands ~ .4" group
| Stats - Average | 2920.31 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2928.58 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2903.7 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 24.89 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 11.58 | fps |
36.3gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ this load sucked my nuttz 2" group
| Stats - Average | 2916.66 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2924.41 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2908.54 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 15.88 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 6.52 | fps |
36.6gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ 5" group
| Stats - Average | 2923.62 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2941.29 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2909.72 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 31.57 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 13.55 | fps |
Last edited:
6.5cm results [PVA Rock Creek 26" cut barrel, 1:7]...Labradar at 100yds. 45deg F, 6k above sea level. These were out of my rifle FWIW.
42gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~ 1" pattern
42.3gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~.6"
42.6gr staball, CCI400, 147Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands ~.6"
Best group of the day with StaBall @ .38"
44gr staball, CCI400, 140Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands
42gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~ 1" pattern
| Stats - Average | 2631.1 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2647.56 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2601.53 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 46.03 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 20.69 | fps |
42.3gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~.6"
| Stats - Average | 2659.18 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2667.9 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2650.19 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 17.71 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 8.04 | fps |
42.6gr staball, CCI400, 147Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands ~.6"
| Stats - Average | 2666.18 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2689.79 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2650.25 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 39.54 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 14.66 | fps |
Best group of the day with StaBall @ .38"
44gr staball, CCI400, 140Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands
| Stats - Average | 2809.65 | fps |
| Stats - Highest | 2819.68 | fps |
| Stats - Lowest | 2790.77 | fps |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 28.91 | fps |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 13.54 | fps |
Last edited:
H4350 comparison with the barnes on the BRX barrel:
Stats - Average 2945.41 fps
Stats - Highest 2954.73 fps
Stats - Lowest 2936.16 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 18.57 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 7.6 fps
Stats - Average 2945.41 fps
Stats - Highest 2954.73 fps
Stats - Lowest 2936.16 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 18.57 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 7.6 fps
Check out the RDC for 22N, 90gr, and SB6.5
I'm wondering why they called it SB 6.5?
Looking through the published load data at Winchester's RDC, it looks like it might be something for my single load 28" 22 Nosler.
You know the forgotten big brother to the 224V
I load long and their data on 80 to 90gr bullets look to give me a speed boost at the same pressure over powders I have been using and they typically stop at a max around 53kpsi. I might be a little over that with my IMR4350 80/88gr loads.
My SB6.5 powder should be here to start loading this weekend. I don't get out to shoot much during the cold months but will try for the following weekend.
I also bought a Magnetospeed sporter (the cheap one) so I don't have to set up the Optical on a tripod.
(too cheap to buy the radar).
SOoo, when it comes in and I have enough info to post, I'll start a thread on:
22N, heavies, and SB6.5 powder. If it does well I'll take it to a 600 yd meet.
I need to get some better scores to move up from Sharpshooter (my goal for this summer)
I'm wondering why they called it SB 6.5?
Looking through the published load data at Winchester's RDC, it looks like it might be something for my single load 28" 22 Nosler.
You know the forgotten big brother to the 224V
I load long and their data on 80 to 90gr bullets look to give me a speed boost at the same pressure over powders I have been using and they typically stop at a max around 53kpsi. I might be a little over that with my IMR4350 80/88gr loads.
My SB6.5 powder should be here to start loading this weekend. I don't get out to shoot much during the cold months but will try for the following weekend.
I also bought a Magnetospeed sporter (the cheap one) so I don't have to set up the Optical on a tripod.
(too cheap to buy the radar).
SOoo, when it comes in and I have enough info to post, I'll start a thread on:
22N, heavies, and SB6.5 powder. If it does well I'll take it to a 600 yd meet.
I need to get some better scores to move up from Sharpshooter (my goal for this summer)
Ran some load development today. Was very impressed by this new powder. Ran it in my RPR 6 creed. I used Peterson virgin brass with CCI magnum primers starting at 43.0, 43.5, 44.0, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 45.8, 46.1, 46.3 and 46.5 grains of 6.5 staball powder.
This was shot out of my RPR in 6 creed. Stock barrel and Vortex PST 6-24. Magpul Bipod and homemade rear bag. AAC 51T Brakeout muzzle device.
I started seeing heavy lift at 46.1 and stopped shooting at 46.3 due to pressure. My best load was at 45.5. I am attaching a picture, the top left grouping was the 45.5gr load. All bullet seating depths were at 2.750 COAL. I will measure tomorrow both target papers and list the size of groupings.
I wasn’t able to get chronograph readings for most of the groups due to not having the right spacer for my MagnetoSpeed. I put the can on at the 46.1gr and was reading 3350fps average. The 44.0 grain load I used for fouling and sighting in was at 3140fps average.
Dont mind the bottom left and right targets. I was messing around.
This was shot out of my RPR in 6 creed. Stock barrel and Vortex PST 6-24. Magpul Bipod and homemade rear bag. AAC 51T Brakeout muzzle device.
I started seeing heavy lift at 46.1 and stopped shooting at 46.3 due to pressure. My best load was at 45.5. I am attaching a picture, the top left grouping was the 45.5gr load. All bullet seating depths were at 2.750 COAL. I will measure tomorrow both target papers and list the size of groupings.
I wasn’t able to get chronograph readings for most of the groups due to not having the right spacer for my MagnetoSpeed. I put the can on at the 46.1gr and was reading 3350fps average. The 44.0 grain load I used for fouling and sighting in was at 3140fps average.
Dont mind the bottom left and right targets. I was messing around.
Last edited:
SO, I have a question.
I have Laoua brass in 6.5cm. Finding the case capacity with water I was getting 51.2 grains
93% of that is 47.6 grains.
Would that be correct based on what was said earlier in this thread about not getting to the ideal load at 93%?
Or do I need to file the cases with powder and use 93% of that?
Thanks!
I have Laoua brass in 6.5cm. Finding the case capacity with water I was getting 51.2 grains
93% of that is 47.6 grains.
Would that be correct based on what was said earlier in this thread about not getting to the ideal load at 93%?
Or do I need to file the cases with powder and use 93% of that?
Thanks!
yes, 93% of case fill WITH POWDER. Please, not 93% of the water measurement. 47 grains of StaBALL in 6.5 CM is way higher than a safe starting point.
Got to thinking about that and how much powder that would be and just couldn't get there in my head.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
ok, weighed the powder capacity with the Staball 6.5
Here are the weights. Again 6.5 CM Lapua brass (just used 5 to get an idea):
54.98
54.42
54.6
54.4
54.74
for an average: 54.628
93% of that is 50.8
Thinking that would be pretty hot...
What am I doing wrong? (filling the cartridge to the top)
Thanks!
Here are the weights. Again 6.5 CM Lapua brass (just used 5 to get an idea):
54.98
54.42
54.6
54.4
54.74
for an average: 54.628
93% of that is 50.8
Thinking that would be pretty hot...
What am I doing wrong? (filling the cartridge to the top)
Thanks!
Just a reference point...I was trying to hit 2900, and i guess i need more balls...
Is that 93% of a full case to the top of the neck,
Talk about a compressed load.
That's "Hey ya'll, watch this" hand loading.
OR
93% with the bullet seated?
(a little powder shake when seated? )
I’d have to assume with the bullet seated. That’s the physical space available for powder. Note that also depends slightly on seating depth.
Assume?
Case volume minus bullet seated volume gives Net powder Volume capacity.
I guess you could calculate the volume of a boattail bullet that is contained within the case.
Do the math, and figure what 100% fill would be with a specific case/bullet seating combo.
Then decide what percentage you wanted, like 93%, 95%, etc.
Convert to weight using Bulk Density for your lot of powder and weight out a charge.
Change seating depth or change bullet shape, flatbase, boattail and the net volume changes.
My point was, in fewer words; Know what you are doing with powder charges.
Find a STARTING POINT, work up slowly.
@BBVDD
Case fill (percent) is a nice to know number.
SB6.5 just like CFE223, won't give you the crunch of a stick powder.
You can measure case capacity, or just guess at case fill.
Get close to 100%, that's where the 93 to 95% number come from.
An approximation, not a charge value.
(I know, some use volumetric instead of weight)
Use published data in grains as a starting point.
An example of case brand is the 22 Nolser brass I have and resized 6mm Hagar (22 Nosgar).
The Hagar brass is way heavier. Loading the 75Amax/ELD long, 2.445" I get 'about' 95% with 29.9 grains in the Nosler case and drop a grain or so in the Hagar case.
I don't think I could load 93% of the 35 gr shown in the pic.
Case volume minus bullet seated volume gives Net powder Volume capacity.
I guess you could calculate the volume of a boattail bullet that is contained within the case.
Do the math, and figure what 100% fill would be with a specific case/bullet seating combo.
Then decide what percentage you wanted, like 93%, 95%, etc.
Convert to weight using Bulk Density for your lot of powder and weight out a charge.
Change seating depth or change bullet shape, flatbase, boattail and the net volume changes.
My point was, in fewer words; Know what you are doing with powder charges.
Find a STARTING POINT, work up slowly.
@BBVDD
Case fill (percent) is a nice to know number.
SB6.5 just like CFE223, won't give you the crunch of a stick powder.
You can measure case capacity, or just guess at case fill.
Get close to 100%, that's where the 93 to 95% number come from.
An approximation, not a charge value.
(I know, some use volumetric instead of weight)
Use published data in grains as a starting point.
An example of case brand is the 22 Nolser brass I have and resized 6mm Hagar (22 Nosgar).
The Hagar brass is way heavier. Loading the 75Amax/ELD long, 2.445" I get 'about' 95% with 29.9 grains in the Nosler case and drop a grain or so in the Hagar case.
I don't think I could load 93% of the 35 gr shown in the pic.
Last edited:
I think we can all agree on the last point, start low and go up slowly from there. And the starting point should be from somewhere below published max!
This case fill thing is just for entertainment and curiosity.
That being said, what I did to measure the case volume was take a fired case and fill it to the neck with StaBALL, then pour out a little bit and drop a bullet in the neck. I stopped when the bullet was roughly the depth at which I’m seating them. Then I measured that volume. Taking that as 100%, I did indeed find I was getting close to 93% in my testing.
I test case fill by shaking
Mid 90's and I can feel the powder shake.
If the weather works out I'll hit my local 100yd range and compare some SB6.5 loads to IMR4350 loads I have been using. If I'm lucky I can get a guess on a load to try at my next 600.
Probably also take 60 of my old loads in case I guessed wrong.
Going on the assumption that published max is conservative,
I'll run 10 88ELD with 30.25gr of IMR4350 (my normal 600yd load)
10 88ELD with 32.3gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 32.7gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 33.0gr oF SB65
10 90SMK with 32.0gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.3gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.7gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 33.0gr of SB65 (still got shake )
I might have to stop before I get to the top though.
BOOK MAX for the 90 is 32.3gr SB6.5, 2,889FPS, 53,500 PSI (24", I have a 28")
Get to try out my new, second hand Magneto Sporter.
3000 with a 90 in a 22N would be cool
Temporary Signature line:
22 Nosler, the Valkyrie's Big Brother
Mid 90's and I can feel the powder shake.
If the weather works out I'll hit my local 100yd range and compare some SB6.5 loads to IMR4350 loads I have been using. If I'm lucky I can get a guess on a load to try at my next 600.
Probably also take 60 of my old loads in case I guessed wrong.
Going on the assumption
that published max is conservative,I'll run 10 88ELD with 30.25gr of IMR4350 (my normal 600yd load)
10 88ELD with 32.3gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 32.7gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 33.0gr oF SB65
10 90SMK with 32.0gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.3gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.7gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 33.0gr of SB65 (still got shake
)I might have to stop before I get to the top though.
BOOK MAX for the 90 is 32.3gr SB6.5, 2,889FPS, 53,500 PSI (24", I have a 28")
Get to try out my new, second hand Magneto Sporter.
3000 with a 90 in a 22N would be cool
Temporary Signature line:
22 Nosler, the Valkyrie's Big Brother
Last edited:
Damn t
Damn that looks awesome! Best results I've seen yet with Staball!! Is that the 6BR barrel you got from me?
Damn that looks awesome! Best results I've seen yet with Staball!! Is that the 6BR barrel you got from me?
Gotcha. Never tried 8208 in my BR's only Varget and H4895. Will have to give it a try
Hows brass life with that combo? Looks like 8208 is giving you a little more speed. My 29.4g H4895 load with a 105 Hybrid gives me 2850 consistently across 3 different 28" 6BR barrels.
Back from the range with results with my 22 Nosler, 88 ELD, 90 SMK, and SB6.5.
I'll post a couple pics, toss the brass in the tumpler, and take a nap.
I have the order of load to dot in my logbook, and velocities taken with my Second hand MagnetoSpeed Sporter. It worked every shot. What's odd is I expected POI to be just a little lower but was a little higher.
Took it off, made some shots to see just how much I needed to adjust, and nothing.
Same zero as before.
The loads I used got the 88's up really close to a 3000fps average, and the 90's just over 2900fps.
No signs of any pressure.
Here's the setup
Everything @ 100 yds.
10 shots with 77 grain Factory
Then the end of the day.
Some of the 5 shot groups were smaller than a quarter, some not
Added Group sizes and matched up loads to dots
I'll post a couple pics, toss the brass in the tumpler, and take a nap.
I have the order of load to dot in my logbook, and velocities taken with my Second hand MagnetoSpeed Sporter. It worked every shot. What's odd is I expected POI to be just a little lower but was a little higher.
Took it off, made some shots to see just how much I needed to adjust, and nothing.
Same zero as before.
The loads I used got the 88's up really close to a 3000fps average, and the 90's just over 2900fps.
No signs of any pressure.
Here's the setup
Everything @ 100 yds.
10 shots with 77 grain Factory
Then the end of the day.
Some of the 5 shot groups were smaller than a quarter, some not
Added Group sizes and matched up loads to dots
Last edited:
Okay guys, I have far less experience in load development than most of you. I used to load for my .308 and the wife's .223 several years ago but, I've only shot factory stuff the last five years or so. I've got a Tikka T3x CTR in 6.5cm with a 24" factory barrel. It shoots Hornady American Gunner 140gr consistently in the .4-.5 moa range. I've decided to try loading for this rifle and ordered a few hundred rounds of the Hornady 140gr HPBT match. Planning to use my once fired Hornady brass. I have two pounds of StaBall 6.5 and I've read through this entire thread. Charge weight ladder tests for velocity and accuracy nodes, I've done...easy enough.
My question is about how seating depth will affect pressure. I checked my chamber today and a COAL of 2.88" puts me just kissing the lands. I know there's going to be various opinions but, how do you guys determine the optimal seating depth in terms of accuracy and pressure? Could one increase charge weight if loading for a bigger jump, specifically with something like this powder that likes the case to be filled?
Bob
My question is about how seating depth will affect pressure. I checked my chamber today and a COAL of 2.88" puts me just kissing the lands. I know there's going to be various opinions but, how do you guys determine the optimal seating depth in terms of accuracy and pressure? Could one increase charge weight if loading for a bigger jump, specifically with something like this powder that likes the case to be filled?
Bob
Okay, thanks. I feel like I've got a plan now. I'll report back when I get some time to work on this.
Bob
No harm in trying. Would prob have the best chance in bullets heavier than 175 grains. What I was getting at is that Staball seems to be a bit slower burn rate than H4350 and 4350 is generally too slow for 308. Post up your results. I'll be doing some testing with 6.5 Creed and 130s in the next few days.
-Dan
Similar threads
