New Winchester Staball 6.5 ball powder

[Rocketvapor]

You guys really aren't trying to compare equal charge weights of 2 different powders?
and calling one 'Slow'?

 

[702lineman]

You guys really aren't trying to compare equal charge weights of 2 different powders?
and calling one 'Slow'?

It may be slower burning but it's not slow as far as velocity goes.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

You guys really aren't trying to compare equal charge weights of 2 different powders?
and calling one 'Slow'?

Lol, wut?

 

[RogueTanker]

Has anyone used this in 7mm-08 yet with 162-168gr pills. Looks like almost 2776fps per hogden reloading page.

Go back a few pages. I did some extensive testing with the 7-08 Ackley. Should help with giving you some ballpark figures

 

[jpndave]

Lol, wut?

Right? There are a few posts that read that way. Just clarifying to make sure. Some of these posts are comparing max plus 4350 to low charge on the StaBALL then calling it slow. Are they meaning slower burn rate? These should be equal pressure (at least ish) loads to compare speeds.

I'm getting ready to work some up for a rifle and if this powder is as promised, I'd like to try it out.

 

[spife7980]

Lol, wut?

Powder burn rate and energy density arent the same thing sorta like how current and voltage arent the same thing.
One can burn at a slower rate but have more or less energy output or vice versa for a faster burning powder. Burn rate is just one variable in a whole host of variables so guessing a comparative burn rate off a single sample isnt very enlightening.

With a single sample point you just dont know. Really you would want the max and min load of each and their velocities and pressures with an equal case and bullet to determine the relative speeds comparatively and then to do it again within all of the other variables in that cartridge to actually know.

It seems to me that rocket vapor is trying to get yall understand the actual scope of the issue and the verbage used in description vs just making claims off of an incomplete sampling.

Velocity produced ≠ burn rate

 

[phlegethon]

Powder burn rate and energy density arent the same thing sorta like how current and voltage arent the same thing.
One can burn at a slower rate but have more or less energy output or vice versa for a faster burning powder. Burn rate is just one variable in a whole host of variables so guessing a comparative burn rate off a single sample isnt very enlightening.

With a single sample point you just dont know. Really you would want the max and min load of each and their velocities and pressures with an equal case and bullet to determine the relative speeds comparatively and then to do it again within all of the other variables in that cartridge to actually know.

I don’t think there’s any evidence that the burn rate of StaBALL is lower than H4350. Supposedly they are very close. It is clear that the energy density of StaBALL is lower, and my comment above was really comparing a range of charges that were theoretically close to published max for both. I suspect the published data for StaBALL is more conservative which makes it appear slower.

it would be great to compare equal pressures but no one has a way to measure pressure.

 

[Doc68]

Go back a few pages. I did some extensive testing with the 7-08 Ackley. Should help with giving you some ballpark figures

Thank you very much. Appreciate the work up.

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Powder burn rate and energy density arent the same thing sorta like how current and voltage arent the same thing.
One can burn at a slower rate but have more or less energy output or vice versa for a faster burning powder. Burn rate is just one variable in a whole host of variables so guessing a comparative burn rate off a single sample isnt very enlightening.

With a single sample point you just dont know. Really you would want the max and min load of each and their velocities and pressures with an equal case and bullet to determine the relative speeds comparatively and then to do it again within all of the other variables in that cartridge to actually know.

It seems to me that rocket vapor is trying to get yall understand the actual scope of the issue and the verbage used in description vs just making claims off of an incomplete sampling.

Velocity produced ≠ burn rate

Yes. Is that what he was trying to say? I couldn't tell.

I think people are using the term "slower" and "Faster" in different ways.

Grain for grain Stabil6.5 is "slower" than 4350 or RL16. As in it produces a slower velocity in a bullet using the same grain measurement of powder in a case.

Where it falls on the burn rate chart, it may be "faster" or "slower" burning than others.

The velocity it produces in a specifice cartridge before it reaches max pressure may be "faster" or "slower" than others.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Sorry, really didn't want to stir things up.
I've been looking over the Win published data for smaller cartridges.
With my 22N I've found pretty good results with CFE223 for bullets up to 75Amax (have a couple thousand for plinking) and IMR4350 (which I have) instead of H4350 (don't got) for 80/88ELD, 85RDF, and 90gr pointed Sierra's.
Just looking at the data, velocity at published max seems higher.
90gr
StaBall 6.5
32.3 2,889 53,500 PSI
H4350
29.2 2,742 53,600 PSI
IMR4350
29.4 2,742 52,900 PSI

Loaded long for 600/1000 yds an extra 150fps might be worth it.

Moving about in bullet weight StaBall 6.5 seems more predictable in cartridges the size of the 6.5C,
than say the 223, or even the 224V. The 22N data seems to flow smoother from weight to weight of projectile. At least they have some Min/Max values that seem to make sense.

I have an inherited 1903/Mark 1 .30-06 that I sometimes shoot but don't want to wear out.
I load IMR 4350 in it.
The published load for SB 6.5 (168gr) doesn't seem worth it and pressure is a little bit higher for the same Vel.
Nothing yet for my 6.5x55 Swede.

 

[Steel head]

Try shooting 46grs of H4350 in a 6.5CM with 140's.

That should be interesting!

 

[Doc68]

That should be interesting!

Some people like to watch the world blow up????

 

[Rocketvapor]

Try shooting 46grs of H4350 in a 6.5CM with 140's.

Got more details?

 

[Rocketvapor]

Thanks.

 

[Nimothy]

Is it me? I am seeing mixed reports regarding velocity, some are saying higher numbers and others are saying it’s slow. What gives? I have a keg of this unopened because I am developing a load in a different rifle but as soon as I am done I will start on the ‘06 providing that I have time.

I spoke to the guys at Alamo precision about this a couple weeks ago and one of them up there said if you go chasing internet velocity you’re just gonna be disappointed with a burned out barrel. ALL my rifles always seem slow to everyone else’s

 

[chevy_man]

Got more details?

Sounds like a recipe to have self removing primers at the least.


I think a lot of people are missing the point. I can throw this with the dillon or redding throwers. No longer do I have to wait on the auto-trickler to throw one charge every 20 seconds.

Who cares if the energy density per weight is slower? It may very well need to be to get case fill to the point where it's going to be the most stable with a ball powder.


And it's scary how many guys here are acting like some of the characteristics are new. All ball powders have fill rates they're happy with. They're not stick powders and they don't throw like it either.

 

[Nimothy]

Someone shot out a barrel using StaBall in 2 months?

No I was making a reference to how everyone’s velocity seems higher than mine. Not staball in particular. Nothing to do with staball. Just “internet“ velocities. I’d take them with a grain of salt. Or who knows maybe it has something to do altitude. And barometric pressure Idk. All I know is in Dallas Texas my rifles are slow comparatively

 

[Nimothy]

Ya, I typically run them slower than top end. I shot up to 46.5gr of StaBall in 6.5 Ceed without pressure signs. But we settled on 45.3gr bc it was in the middle of a node. 2800fps in a factory Tikka CTR barrel shooting 140's.

That’s what I mean there are folks on this site and others saying they get better than that with the 147 class of bullets with 24” and under. idk if they are just lucky or dont care to fire brass more than once. All I know is 2800 is the max comfy load in mine with a 140 and I run 147 at 2725ish

 

[Rocketvapor]

If I could get similar precision with 90gr SB 6.5 loads, as 4350 (either brand) then the published velocity would give a 3mph wind error of about 1/2 an F-Class X-ring advantage.
I don't know about you guys I've had 10's really close to an X and 9's close to a 10.
(and an occasional 8 not close to nuthin).

Well, went ahead and ordered 4 lbs and some more primers from Midsouth.
A few dollars cheaper this time than Powder Valley.

 

[phlegethon]

A little more pressure testing with 6.5 Creedmoor and the Hornady 129 SP bullets. I seem to have hit an odd plateau in speed. There was definitely an outlier in 46.2 when I left the cartridge in the chamber a bit too long. I saw ejector swipes on a couple of cases at 46.2 and 46.4 but not consistently. Will probably load 45.8 and get rid of these bullets.

 

[buckshotbarlow]

6 brx results [SJA 26" Proof, 1:7.5]...Labradar at 100yds. 45deg F, 6k above sea level. These were out of my rifle FWIW.


5rd strings.

36gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands ~ .4" group

Stats - Average	2920.31​	fps
Stats - Highest	2928.58​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2903.7​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	24.89​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	11.58​	fps

36.3gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ this load sucked my nuttz 2" group

Stats - Average	2916.66​	fps
Stats - Highest	2924.41​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2908.54​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	15.88​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	6.52​	fps

36.6gr staball, 112gr Barnes MB, CCI 450primer, .010 off the lands, ~ 5" group

Stats - Average	2923.62​	fps
Stats - Highest	2941.29​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2909.72​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	31.57​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	13.55​	fps

 

[buckshotbarlow]

6.5cm results [PVA Rock Creek 26" cut barrel, 1:7]...Labradar at 100yds. 45deg F, 6k above sea level. These were out of my rifle FWIW.

42gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~ 1" pattern

Stats - Average	2631.1​	fps
Stats - Highest	2647.56​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2601.53​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	46.03​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	20.69​	fps

42.3gr staball, CCI400, 150Gr SMK, .020 off the lands ~.6"

Stats - Average	2659.18​	fps
Stats - Highest	2667.9​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2650.19​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	17.71​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	8.04​	fps

42.6gr staball, CCI400, 147Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands ~.6"

Stats - Average	2666.18​	fps
Stats - Highest	2689.79​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2650.25​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	39.54​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	14.66​	fps

Best group of the day with StaBall @ .38"
44gr staball, CCI400, 140Gr HDY ELDM, .020 off the lands

Stats - Average	2809.65​	fps
Stats - Highest	2819.68​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2790.77​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	28.91​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	13.54​	fps

 

[buckshotbarlow]

H4350 comparison with the barnes on the BRX barrel:

Stats - Average 2945.41 fps
Stats - Highest 2954.73 fps
Stats - Lowest 2936.16 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 18.57 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 7.6 fps

 

[Rocketvapor]

Check out the RDC for 22N, 90gr, and SB6.5
I'm wondering why they called it SB 6.5?

Looking through the published load data at Winchester's RDC, it looks like it might be something for my single load 28" 22 Nosler.
You know the forgotten big brother to the 224V
I load long and their data on 80 to 90gr bullets look to give me a speed boost at the same pressure over powders I have been using and they typically stop at a max around 53kpsi. I might be a little over that with my IMR4350 80/88gr loads.

My SB6.5 powder should be here to start loading this weekend. I don't get out to shoot much during the cold months but will try for the following weekend.
I also bought a Magnetospeed sporter (the cheap one) so I don't have to set up the Optical on a tripod.
(too cheap to buy the radar).

SOoo, when it comes in and I have enough info to post, I'll start a thread on:
22N, heavies, and SB6.5 powder. If it does well I'll take it to a 600 yd meet.
I need to get some better scores to move up from Sharpshooter (my goal for this summer)

 

[Doc68]

Ran some load development today. Was very impressed by this new powder. Ran it in my RPR 6 creed. I used Peterson virgin brass with CCI magnum primers starting at 43.0, 43.5, 44.0, 44.5, 45.0, 45.5, 45.8, 46.1, 46.3 and 46.5 grains of 6.5 staball powder.

This was shot out of my RPR in 6 creed. Stock barrel and Vortex PST 6-24. Magpul Bipod and homemade rear bag. AAC 51T Brakeout muzzle device.

I started seeing heavy lift at 46.1 and stopped shooting at 46.3 due to pressure. My best load was at 45.5. I am attaching a picture, the top left grouping was the 45.5gr load. All bullet seating depths were at 2.750 COAL. I will measure tomorrow both target papers and list the size of groupings.

I wasn’t able to get chronograph readings for most of the groups due to not having the right spacer for my MagnetoSpeed. I put the can on at the 46.1gr and was reading 3350fps average. The 44.0 grain load I used for fouling and sighting in was at 3140fps average.

Dont mind the bottom left and right targets. I was messing around.

 

[buckshotbarlow]

Sitting at the gate, waiting for my partner...got some more loads on the brx to sling...thxs for the info on the BR...

 

[BBVDD]

SO, I have a question.

I have Laoua brass in 6.5cm. Finding the case capacity with water I was getting 51.2 grains

93% of that is 47.6 grains.

Would that be correct based on what was said earlier in this thread about not getting to the ideal load at 93%?
Or do I need to file the cases with powder and use 93% of that?

Thanks!

 

[phlegethon]

SO, I have a question.

I have Laoua brass in 6.5cm. Finding the case capacity with water I was getting 51.2 grains

93% of that is 47.6 grains.

Would that be correct based on what was said earlier in this thread about not getting to the ideal load at 93%?
Or do I need to file the cases with powder and use 93% of that?

Thanks!

yes, 93% of case fill WITH POWDER. Please, not 93% of the water measurement. 47 grains of StaBALL in 6.5 CM is way higher than a safe starting point.

 

[buckshotbarlow]

Well, brx on a 105gr VLD...

Stats - Average	2860.96​	fps
Stats - Highest	2871.37​	fps
Stats - Lowest	2845.35​	fps
Stats - Ext. Spread	26.02​	fps
Stats - Std. Dev	11.16​	fps

 

[BBVDD]

Got to thinking about that and how much powder that would be and just couldn't get there in my head.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts.

 

[BBVDD]

ok, weighed the powder capacity with the Staball 6.5

Here are the weights. Again 6.5 CM Lapua brass (just used 5 to get an idea):

54.98
54.42
54.6
54.4
54.74

for an average: 54.628

93% of that is 50.8
Thinking that would be pretty hot...

What am I doing wrong? (filling the cartridge to the top)

Thanks!

 

[buckshotbarlow]

That's slow. Ran out of capacity?

Just a reference point...I was trying to hit 2900, and i guess i need more balls...

 

[Rocketvapor]

yes, 93% of case fill WITH POWDER. Please, not 93% of the water measurement. 47 grains of StaBALL in 6.5 CM is way higher than a safe starting point.

Is that 93% of a full case to the top of the neck,
Talk about a compressed load.
That's "Hey ya'll, watch this" hand loading.
OR
93% with the bullet seated?
(a little powder shake when seated? )

 

[phlegethon]

Is that 93% of a full case to the top of the neck,
Talk about a compressed load.
That's "Hey ya'll, watch this" hand loading.
OR
93% with the bullet seated?
(a little powder shake when seated? )

I’d have to assume with the bullet seated. That’s the physical space available for powder. Note that also depends slightly on seating depth.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Assume?
Case volume minus bullet seated volume gives Net powder Volume capacity.
I guess you could calculate the volume of a boattail bullet that is contained within the case.
Do the math, and figure what 100% fill would be with a specific case/bullet seating combo.
Then decide what percentage you wanted, like 93%, 95%, etc.
Convert to weight using Bulk Density for your lot of powder and weight out a charge.
Change seating depth or change bullet shape, flatbase, boattail and the net volume changes.

My point was, in fewer words; Know what you are doing with powder charges.
Find a STARTING POINT, work up slowly.

@BBVDD
Case fill (percent) is a nice to know number.
SB6.5 just like CFE223, won't give you the crunch of a stick powder.
You can measure case capacity, or just guess at case fill.
Get close to 100%, that's where the 93 to 95% number come from.
An approximation, not a charge value.
(I know, some use volumetric instead of weight)
Use published data in grains as a starting point.

An example of case brand is the 22 Nolser brass I have and resized 6mm Hagar (22 Nosgar).
The Hagar brass is way heavier. Loading the 75Amax/ELD long, 2.445" I get 'about' 95% with 29.9 grains in the Nosler case and drop a grain or so in the Hagar case.
I don't think I could load 93% of the 35 gr shown in the pic.

 

[phlegethon]

Assume?
Case volume minus bullet seated volume gives Net powder Volume capacity.
I guess you could calculate the volume of a boattail bullet that is contained within the case.
Do the math, and figure what 100% fill would be with a specific case/bullet seating combo.
Then decide what percentage you wanted, like 93%, 95%, etc.
Convert to weight using Bulk Density for your lot of powder and weight out a charge.
Change seating depth or change bullet shape, flatbase, boattail and the net volume changes.

My point was, in fewer words; Know what you are doing with powder charges.
Find a STARTING POINT, work up slowly.

I think we can all agree on the last point, start low and go up slowly from there. And the starting point should be from somewhere below published max!

This case fill thing is just for entertainment and curiosity.

That being said, what I did to measure the case volume was take a fired case and fill it to the neck with StaBALL, then pour out a little bit and drop a bullet in the neck. I stopped when the bullet was roughly the depth at which I’m seating them. Then I measured that volume. Taking that as 100%, I did indeed find I was getting close to 93% in my testing.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I test case fill by shaking
Mid 90's and I can feel the powder shake.
If the weather works out I'll hit my local 100yd range and compare some SB6.5 loads to IMR4350 loads I have been using. If I'm lucky I can get a guess on a load to try at my next 600.
Probably also take 60 of my old loads in case I guessed wrong.
Going on the assumption that published max is conservative,
I'll run 10 88ELD with 30.25gr of IMR4350 (my normal 600yd load)
10 88ELD with 32.3gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 32.7gr oF SB65
10 88ELD with 33.0gr oF SB65

10 90SMK with 32.0gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.3gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 32.7gr of SB65
10 90SMK with 33.0gr of SB65 (still got shake )

I might have to stop before I get to the top though.
BOOK MAX for the 90 is 32.3gr SB6.5, 2,889FPS, 53,500 PSI (24", I have a 28")
Get to try out my new, second hand Magneto Sporter.
3000 with a 90 in a 22N would be cool

Temporary Signature line:
22 Nosler, the Valkyrie's Big Brother

 

[padom]

Damn t

28" 6BR Bartlein .237 bore. CCI BR-4, 107 SMKs jumping 15 thou

34.5gr 2900 SD 8
34.8gr 2934 SD 8
35.1gr 2948 SD 9

Attached is the latter two charges at 300yds. 1" paster

Damn that looks awesome! Best results I've seen yet with Staball!! Is that the 6BR barrel you got from me?

 

[padom]

It is. It shoots well with 8208 and StaBall. StaBall has just been hard to pin down on environmental concistency

Gotcha. Never tried 8208 in my BR's only Varget and H4895. Will have to give it a try

 

[padom]

I just did it so I could throw powder. 29.4grs with a 107 is getting me about 2900

Hows brass life with that combo? Looks like 8208 is giving you a little more speed. My 29.4g H4895 load with a 105 Hybrid gives me 2850 consistently across 3 different 28" 6BR barrels.

 

[padom]

Not sure yet. Probably not going to be the best. I bought 1300pcs of once fired factory loaded BR brass from a sponsered High-power shooter two years ago for $200 so I'm kinda flush. I actually brought it down to 2880 for the club match last weekend. The barrel seems to group well with 107's at 2880 to 2940'ish

Interesting. So what load did you drop down to from 29.4gr to get 2880? 29.0?

 

[Mrcrask]

Any reloading data for .308 Winchester?

 

[Engine 22]

Any reloading data for .308 Winchester?

Too slow burning for the .308Win. The same reason you don't see any H4350 loads for the .308.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Back from the range with results with my 22 Nosler, 88 ELD, 90 SMK, and SB6.5.
I'll post a couple pics, toss the brass in the tumpler, and take a nap.
I have the order of load to dot in my logbook, and velocities taken with my Second hand MagnetoSpeed Sporter. It worked every shot. What's odd is I expected POI to be just a little lower but was a little higher.
Took it off, made some shots to see just how much I needed to adjust, and nothing.
Same zero as before.

The loads I used got the 88's up really close to a 3000fps average, and the 90's just over 2900fps.
No signs of any pressure.
Here's the setup

Everything @ 100 yds.

10 shots with 77 grain Factory

Then the end of the day.
Some of the 5 shot groups were smaller than a quarter, some not

Added Group sizes and matched up loads to dots

 

[Ranger Bob]

Okay guys, I have far less experience in load development than most of you. I used to load for my .308 and the wife's .223 several years ago but, I've only shot factory stuff the last five years or so. I've got a Tikka T3x CTR in 6.5cm with a 24" factory barrel. It shoots Hornady American Gunner 140gr consistently in the .4-.5 moa range. I've decided to try loading for this rifle and ordered a few hundred rounds of the Hornady 140gr HPBT match. Planning to use my once fired Hornady brass. I have two pounds of StaBall 6.5 and I've read through this entire thread. Charge weight ladder tests for velocity and accuracy nodes, I've done...easy enough.

My question is about how seating depth will affect pressure. I checked my chamber today and a COAL of 2.88" puts me just kissing the lands. I know there's going to be various opinions but, how do you guys determine the optimal seating depth in terms of accuracy and pressure? Could one increase charge weight if loading for a bigger jump, specifically with something like this powder that likes the case to be filled?

Bob

 

[Ranger Bob]

Realized I didn't really answer your question. The case capacity difference of 10 thou of seating depth won't be a big enough affect to disturb your load. Besides, you'll be doing a ladder at your most likely seating depth. If you nail down your charge weight and then follow up with a seating depth test and end up at a much different OAL then just Chrono and shoot some groups to see what effect it has.

Okay, thanks. I feel like I've got a plan now. I'll report back when I get some time to work on this.

Bob

 

[dmonroe]

Anyone have any data for for 308 in Winchester StaBalls powder? Just received 8# and was going to work up some loads to see how it does.

 

[ddavis]

Anyone have any data for for 308 in Winchester StaBalls powder? Just received 8# and was going to work up some loads to see how it does.

Knowing nothing about Staball other than the burn rate, I can't see this working well.

 

[JMGlasgow]

Varget, RL15, H or IMR 4895, IMR 4064, AR Comp, 8208, 4451, etc.

 

[ddavis]

Those all seem pretty fast. I'm over here shooting StaBall in a 22BR, 6BR, and 6.5 CM with pretty good speeds. I think StaBall would work pretty well in a 308.

No harm in trying. Would prob have the best chance in bullets heavier than 175 grains. What I was getting at is that Staball seems to be a bit slower burn rate than H4350 and 4350 is generally too slow for 308. Post up your results. I'll be doing some testing with 6.5 Creed and 130s in the next few days.

-Dan