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The whole box at 100 yards

#251
Lapua Long Range 22lr, rated 1106 fps

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair Bipod, rear bag, 100 yards

But with a slight twist...

Start by cleaning all the lubricant off the bullets
using turpentine and a cotton rag.

AJFCJaWDJy_qWVja2JTLaKSZqxKSt_MwM3cBFZFQYeGo6_9VmEtuaFfgEyUpHJiR1Owk0Ea92UjY1AiAhwPBsbzOtXfBD8R2cH3vN36k9EIFSfkxs3I8Asz-8cerMIx3FZyJHkp3PMYa5JwEo6s-v0am2lbR=w666-h865-s-no


Takes a bit of doing to remove it all from the knurling and cannelure.
Blue ink on the head stamp to keep track of no-lube cartridges

AJFCJaWDNKjRummI2AF4qQf74ALeJPNXKfcBN38FjxD7hVJXgBm8hW3lil4s-D1o5qtddfp3OSdKjIF8XmlvZ4S96lthsesr6UKC46nCCdlk3fb-N7h8kE11LW6rjhavRHdjlgHZglqVrRR1hx9qtJ7ivFel=w635-h750-s-no


Chronograph out front

AJFCJaVcUz6a8Fw4Y8SMj9_S6WZ5G2GwnH2_aq7sRKOnUS8tOEAkdV7ULnGey0TUc4gA_WRuQi4hO_IIamf74s8fMD3U1vVdrFkmRC_qF7qUBPJFIFhIwHWouTGjp6e9MjFpQMv4kGo-DGJS6l8LZ2DMqHg7=w632-h781-s-no


Bore cleaned back to bare steel, no warm up, no foulers.
From cold bore shot to last pull of the trigger, 50 shots in 20 minutes.

AJFCJaVEVlpCrIv3KlPV5lt14U-mxldF8QYqvwxqoJYu1KWvDaUPAba_Wyq3LiADpfBa_rkphqsfPF1FEp99u6b_jMdk8lB-k9ZoWfoErIVx81vmIWGkEcRpQZCjI-MiuWx-uuh2mZfyvK9ZtYwI120ZM7jZ=w628-h552-s-no


Ummmmmm, question....if lubricant is so important,
why does that result look like the first 50 with lube posted previously? :unsure:
 
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#252
If lubricant was so unimportant, why not try shooting four or more boxes of unlubed ammo one after the other without bore cleaning. How does the accuracy performance change? How does bore condition change?

That might address more fully the question of whether lube has a purpose.
 
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#253
G, the old coots I shoot with have volunteered me to do just that.
They want to see what happens in the bore after a full morning of no-lube shooting.
Is the wet fouling capable of providing enough slickness to prevent leading
or is the bullet lube necessary to do so? I heard the bus coming...shoulda known better. ;)
 
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#255
Calculator says expect about 1.6 inches of vertical at 100 yards RT.
Fits what I see. The light, variable winds caught me multiple times.
Those horizontal strays are me mistiming the squeeze. :(
 
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#258
RTH1800 said:
Appears your ES more than doubled? 33 fps to 75 fps.
Not sure how your vertical held up so well.
Click to expand...
All things being equal, the JBM calculator shows that an ES of 33 fps would theoretically have about 0.88" of vertical dispersion. An ES of 75 fps would give about 1.94" of vertical, again with all things being equal.

In neither case is the vertical dispersion shown on the target predicted by what the ballistics calculator indicates. It's another example showing that MV variation isn't the only factor in explaining shot dispersion.
 
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#266
My take-away of the last three targets Justin posted (posts #251, #258 & #272).

My comments all pertain to the statistics his chronograph gave him.

Post # 251, Lapua Long Range w/lube
Hi vel. 1089, low vel. 1056, E.S. 33 fps, weighted ave. 1074.
The spread between the Hi vel to the weighted ave. is 15 fps; the spread between low vel. and weighted ave. 18 fps. (15+18=33).
The difference between the high and low spread from the weighted ave. would indicate to me that the ammo was pretty constant.

Post # 272 Lapua Super Long Range w/lube
Hi vel. 1101, Low vel. 1061, E.S. 40 fps, weighted ave. 1083.
The spread between the Hi vel. to the weighted ave. is 18 fps; the spread between the low vel. and weighted ave is 22 fps (18+22=40).
Again, the difference between the high and low spread from the weighted ave. indicates pretty constant ammo.

Post #258 Lapua Long Range w/o Lube
Hi vel. 1122, low vel. 1047, E.S. 75, weighted ave. 1071.
The spread between the Hi vel. to the weighted average is 51 fps; the spread between the low vel. and weighted ave. is 24 fps (51+24= 75).
The difference between the high vel. from the weighted average is twice as much as the low vel. to the weighted average. However, the weighted ave. for the No Lubed rounds is 3 fps lower than the other Long Range rounds (post 251), so I would assume there were only a few shots of the No Lubed rounds that shot at the high velocity level as the weighted ave. indicates this. The question for me is where did these high velocity rounds occur in the shot string? If it was in the first few shots, did these first rounds lay down a fouling layer that provided enough lubrication for the subsequent rounds? Or did the high velocity rounds occur late in the string and the increase in fouling created higher pressure? Even though the weighted ave. velocity between the No Lube rounds were only 3 fps lower than the other Longe Range rounds shot with lube, The Hi and low velocities were higher and lower by over twice as much in the non-lubed rounds than the same rounds with lube. I will admit that I was impressed with how good the No Lube group looked compared to the other groups. Maybe it takes more than 50 rounds of non-lubed rounds before you can see the effects of no lube on the bullet on the target?
 
#267
I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.
 
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#268
justin amateur said:
I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.
Click to expand...
I know all this shooting is a tough job, but you are the man that can do it.

I'm hoping you can pick up a pattern in the crony numbers as you progress with the shooting.

I hope you're having fun with all of this.
 
#269
justin amateur said:
I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.
Click to expand...
Reading through this thread and got to the end. Did this test happen?
 
#270
Hey chilly, lead deposits became a problem.
With a freshly cleaned bore, accuracy is similar,
but by the end of a full box of no-lube cartridges
lead deposits are visible (borescope) the length of the bore.
Lubrication is necessary to minimize the accretion of lead
and lengthen the intervals between cleanings.
This was what I expected to see, what was unexpected
was how well the unlubed bullets grouped.
But when you remember that lead can be used as a lubricant also,
it explains why the results from lube/no-lube are similar.
At least from the first box. As the cast bullet shooters pointed out,
lubrication is needed to slow the process of lead deposition.

Eley's blurb of lubricant being for facilitating chambering
was an incomplete statement. It's also needed to slow leading.
 
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#272
So I went out today testing the Vudoo some more. I shot 5 shots then shot 5-25 across a magentospeed. Upon arrival the chamber was decarboned but had 600ish rounds on the barrel. after some action torque testing, I got that where I wanted. that was done at 50yds. I then moved to 100 for the 50rnd box at 104.4yds. I do believe I called the pulled shot low but cant be certain.

The rifle is an early vudoo 360, MTU 20", ATACR 7-35, TT Diamond, BA comp, Atlas bipod, rear bag. CX ammo.

I had pretty wild ES for CX (im thinking maybe because no carbon ring)?


@obx22 and I had a great day!
 

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#274
Yeah RT, folks still use that phrase.
There's something about the anonymity of the internet
that allows them to think they won't get flamed for it.




But since I began asking folks to attempt the Grid,
or 50 at 100, or 50 at 200 yards, it's slowed a bit.

Asking them to "hit what they aim at" is unpopular too. ;)
 
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#276
RT, I won't tell anyone what or how either, unless asked.

If someone makes the claim "all day long"
then I expect them to back it up, every time.
As my gramps said after listening to me brag
about the amazing accuracy of my first 22,
"Don't talk about it boy, show me."

Learned right quick, don't claim you can, if'n you can't. :D
 
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#279
First outing with Xmas present: Garmin Xero and lot tested Center X.
Shot out to 400 yards, easily hitting 12"x12" steel and occasional clay pigeons.
Surprised to find the consistency in ES and SD for this ammo.

In my relatively low informed analysis, although the ES and SD are approaching hand loaded center fire numbers, the proportions of the 22 LR statistical measures of mean and measure of variance [SD 7.2 fps of the average velocity of 1078.2 fps (0.67%)] is more impactful (pun intended) than that of a center fired examples [SD 10 fps of the average of 2750 fps (0.36%)].

This proportional effect is further amplified by wind and atmospherics that the 22LR bullet is more prone to experiencing than our center fired rounds.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy pouring over the data. By the way, the Garmin Xero C1 is awesome, didn't drop a shot, no need to carefully aim, 1/4 the packed volume of the MagnetoSpeed Sporter, and the battery had 50% remaining after 6 hrs at the range without turning it off in 37 deg weather.

YMMV, happy shooting
Lapua Center X Lot Tested Ammo.png
 
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#280
Rimx with steel 24” Proof prefit.

rounds 50-100 on barrel.
did 5x - 10 rnd groups as i reloaded mag.

the 2 smaller groups i used a smaller aiming pt. and sun was in eyes. very hard to focus.

all under 2”. smallest just over 1”. couple fliers/pulls ruined some good groups.


IMG_6537.jpeg
 
#281
Keeping rimfire sub 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 50 consecutive shots is difficult.
With wind and mass produced cartridges, it's unlikely to happen.
Holding center is easy with a target reticle and 24X scope.
But atmospheric conditions and cartridge component/assembly variations,
means trajectory shifts are going to happen. :(
 
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#282
justin amateur said:
Keeping rimfire sub 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 50 consecutive shots is difficult.
With wind and mass produced cartridges, it's unlikely to happen.
Click to expand...

The first time I shot 50 at 100, the results were surprising. Below is the target, with two obvious outliers.

The widest outside-to-outside measurement was 1.709" -- or about 1.5". (Edit: that's about 1.5" center-to-center.)

I've tried 50 at 100 on a couple of other occasions without equalling the results of the first time. That was a lucky box of entry level match ammo, but I must admit I'm reluctant to use the good stuff for this kind of test.

I would expect that most lots of match ammo would have enough outliers in each box that would make 50-round sub-1.5 MOA groups at 100 unusual.




 
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#283
Norma Xtreme LR-22 43 grain 22lr rated 1165 fps
100 yards, wind from my 8 o'clock at 2 to 5mph

AP1GczN-ZEa9m-Dkeq3hjT_Wu4sw48nNHtIjP4hAsUqcQsc849ZMmXD9A4cyVNMbUXeGnR3IwPK7qgCnTjvLbGLIryP4QyvvkpujxyAf4MeFNdZS7SEEjPJySsEu7Iq_rynl0BfsDlAMqeiNh67EN96yuugx=w445-h481-s-no


CZ 455 Lilja, set trigger, Sinclair bipod and rear bag

AP1GczOkHilWGn4-DCKnM6Qx4jYPQqt6AFhftsFIhqXH8hZek9Ej1XuZnyb08xImi_6auMQBQEaageYOtvhkxoMj1e1LlYwgCnDJpnj6u55KqO0EX2OtFlmw-bqiR2YRAEqks9saOmrep0OX1yEAMhzZBTlo=w440-h520-s-no


Visible asymmetry on a few of the cartidges,
clean crimp line, decent looking cartridges.
Tight muzzle velocities 1204 fps high, 1187 avg, 1175 low for 50 shots
2 inches of vertical, 2 inches of horizontal,
36 of 50 impacted inside a 1 inch diameter hole, 14 outliers.

AP1GczMtcjXXvLsKWmQd_JUDOSzirnBwAFz8LnMX5t_IvCSSwI4zrJrvakqpVnQG_a7wlUKaID1gkI5z6N9QrBiq803rMmt54dZvwxJcnNS7N87TcknQlefQvXIPUOs8ehjAm9sHH6qeH8HPEamSuDlx3txO=w688-h555-s-no
 
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#286
Hey Wolf.....no, not my best.
This is what I expect from a mid-grade cartridge at 100 yards.
All 50 shots stay inside a 2 moa circle when shot outdoors,
off the bench using an F-Class bipod and rear bag.

When I get a day with better conditions, I'll send 50 at 200 yards.
By the time I finished at 100 yards, wind was starting to pick up
and swing from my 5 to my 8. Not what I want to see
when trying a new cartridge at 200 yards.
 
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#287
Got out for the first time in a long time to shoot a little. This thread popped into my head when I was confirming data, so I loaded up 5 mags of a random lot of Center X. I certainly left plenty on the table with the target I was using, the resolution of the reticle is crap on this dark target especially in low light. But here it is none the less.

Conditions were high 40's / low 50's, 2-4 mph wind from 11 O'clock. Shot with a Gen 2 VGW ACE barrel prone and rear bag.

Bottom center target obviously. The vertical is from the wind coming down the hill, but I have no idea about that one high round.

I hope you all had a great Christmas and have a safe and happy New Year!
1000007822.jpg

1000007818.jpg
 
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#290
jbell said:
Got out for the first time in a long time to shoot a little. This thread popped into my head when I was confirming data, so I loaded up 5 mags of a random lot of Center X. I certainly left plenty on the table with the target I was using, the resolution of the reticle is crap on this dark target especially in low light. But here it is none the less.

Conditions were high 40's / low 50's, 2-4 mph wind from 11 O'clock. Shot with a Gen 2 VGW ACE barrel prone and rear bag.

Bottom center target obviously. The vertical is from the wind coming down the hill, but I have no idea about that one high round.

I hope you all had a great Christmas and have a safe and happy New Year!
View attachment 8577864
View attachment 8577866
Click to expand...
1.7" of vertical seems like a lot for 100yards, especially with good ammo.
Is that typical accuracy for you?
 
#291
beetroot said:
1.7" of vertical seems like a lot for 100yards, especially with good ammo.
Is that typical accuracy for you?
Click to expand...
I can’t really say for a 50 round string as I have no other data points, however with this rifle I can repeatably hold MOA or slightly less for 10 round groups @ 100 yards. I feel like the majority of the time the group dispersion is horizontal, vertical usually isn’t the factor that opens the group. Obviously this is all wind drift not being correctly accounted for by me. When I shot the 50 round group in question I had a headwind at 11-ish o’clock, I am certain this played a roll in the vertical. In addition to that I had very poor resolution of POA with the dark colored paper & black bull in low light (the fog had just lifted and the sun was setting) combined with a non-illuminated reticle. I will definitely give it another go soon with a different wind condition & I’ll post it up so we can see what it looks like. I wish I still had my chronograph but I was tired of the big ass Labradar so I sold it and just haven’t purchased a Garmin yet.
 
#293
beetroot said:
1.7" of vertical seems like a lot for 100yards, especially with good ammo.
Is that typical accuracy for you?
Click to expand...
Shooters can expect that, conditions aside, different boxes of the same lot may produce different results at 100 yards and even more different results at twice the distance. In other words, some will be worse, perhaps a few a little better.
 
#294
Looking good jbell.

Folks don't realize just how many things change
during the 25 to 50 minutes it takes to fire 50 shots
when attempting to put them all in one hole.
Not just wind, but mental focus and muscle fatigue.
Add in minor/major differences in cartridge components and assembly,
2 moa is not unexpected at 100 yards outdoors, even with wind flags.
 
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#295
@jbell
“wish I still had my chronograph but I was tired of the big ass Labradar so I sold it and just haven’t purchased a Garmin yet.”

Have you looked at or compared the FX true ballistic Doppler radar ,
Not sure what all you do but if your shooting rf and center fire this is a good tool for calculations , if your going to play around past 100 you might want to look at it
 
#296
jbell said:
I can’t really say for a 50 round string as I have no other data points, however with this rifle I can repeatably hold MOA or slightly less for 10 round groups @ 100 yards. I feel like the majority of the time the group dispersion is horizontal, vertical usually isn’t the factor that opens the group. Obviously this is all wind drift not being correctly accounted for by me. When I shot the 50 round group in question I had a headwind at 11-ish o’clock, I am certain this played a roll in the vertical. In addition to that I had very poor resolution of POA with the dark colored paper & black bull in low light (the fog had just lifted and the sun was setting) combined with a non-illuminated reticle. I will definitely give it another go soon with a different wind condition & I’ll post it up so we can see what it looks like. I wish I still had my chronograph but I was tired of the big ass Labradar so I sold it and just haven’t purchased a Garmin yet.
Click to expand...
I recently sold a LR and bought a Garmin, only used it a few times but am already in love with it.
So much quicker and easier to setup, and no issues dropping shots. Being able to attach to the rifle is also amazing as you can basically track every shot that you fire.

It would’ve been interesting to see what the chrony data was for this group.
I don’t have access to Lapua ammo but figured centre X was similar to Eley Match/Tenex, and from what I’d seen from Tenex was a lot less vertical than this group.

It’d be interesting to see if it was ammo, condition, or shooter related (not shit posting).
As you pointed out groups at this distance are usually wider (due to wind) but perhaps the 11 oclock wind was giving you grief.
 
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#298
beetroot said:
I recently sold a LR and bought a Garmin, only used it a few times but am already in love with it.
So much quicker and easier to setup, and no issues dropping shots. Being able to attach to the rifle is also amazing as you can basically track every shot that you fire.

It would’ve been interesting to see what the chrony data was for this group.
I don’t have access to Lapua ammo but figured centre X was similar to Eley Match/Tenex, and from what I’d seen from Tenex was a lot less vertical than this group.

It’d be interesting to see if it was ammo, condition, or shooter related (not shit posting).
As you pointed out groups at this distance are usually wider (due to wind) but perhaps the 11 oclock wind was giving you grief.
Click to expand...

Eley Match/Tenex has a lot less vertical in all my testing. But oddly enough, has more horizontal, like the wind affects it more or something. I don't know why.
 
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