The whole box at 100 yards

[justin amateur]

Lapua Long Range 22lr, rated 1106 fps

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair Bipod, rear bag, 100 yards

But with a slight twist...

Start by cleaning all the lubricant off the bullets
using turpentine and a cotton rag.

Takes a bit of doing to remove it all from the knurling and cannelure.
Blue ink on the head stamp to keep track of no-lube cartridges

Chronograph out front

Bore cleaned back to bare steel, no warm up, no foulers.
From cold bore shot to last pull of the trigger, 50 shots in 20 minutes.

Ummmmmm, question....if lubricant is so important,
why does that result look like the first 50 with lube posted previously?

 

[grauhanen]

If lubricant was so unimportant, why not try shooting four or more boxes of unlubed ammo one after the other without bore cleaning. How does the accuracy performance change? How does bore condition change?

That might address more fully the question of whether lube has a purpose.

 

[justin amateur]

G, the old coots I shoot with have volunteered me to do just that.
They want to see what happens in the bore after a full morning of no-lube shooting.
Is the wet fouling capable of providing enough slickness to prevent leading
or is the bullet lube necessary to do so? I heard the bus coming...shoulda known better.

 

[RTH1800]

Appears your ES more than doubled? 33 fps to 75 fps.
Not sure how your vertical held up so well.

 

[justin amateur]

Calculator says expect about 1.6 inches of vertical at 100 yards RT.
Fits what I see. The light, variable winds caught me multiple times.
Those horizontal strays are me mistiming the squeeze.

 

[DGD6MM]

Very good testing justin. Always something to learn.
Thank you.

 

[RTH1800]

Calculator says expect about 1.6 inches of vertical at 100 yards RT.
Fits what I see. The light, variable winds caught me multiple times.
Those horizontal strays are me mistiming the squeeze.

I did not do the math. I just noticed the increase in ES and thought you should see an increase in vertical dispersion.

 

[grauhanen]

Appears your ES more than doubled? 33 fps to 75 fps.
Not sure how your vertical held up so well.

All things being equal, the JBM calculator shows that an ES of 33 fps would theoretically have about 0.88" of vertical dispersion. An ES of 75 fps would give about 1.94" of vertical, again with all things being equal.

In neither case is the vertical dispersion shown on the target predicted by what the ballistics calculator indicates. It's another example showing that MV variation isn't the only factor in explaining shot dispersion.

 

[RTH1800]

I thought the vertical would be additive. If you get x accuracy with 33 FPS you would get x plus the additional ES vertical. Clearly that is not what happened here.

 

[justin amateur]

Compensating errors?
Wind, shooter, mv spread.

 

[RTH1800]

Justin,

You are too modest.

 

[camocorvette]

I didn't take pictures I was shooting steel. But in preparation for a match this weekend I shot 3 boxes over the magnetospeed. The results are acceptable I think.

Ammo was SK rifle match out of my Anschutz 1903 trainer.

54 yards, ten rounds, 1" dot.

 

[ma smith]

I didn't take pictures I was shooting steel. But in preparation for a match this weekend I shot 3 boxes over the magnetospeed. The results are acceptable I think

Nice lot of SK Rifle Match! Too bad its not all tha good...

 

[camocorvette]

@ma smith your telling me! I got lucky, and thankfully got 5k of this lot.

 

[justin amateur]

Lapua Super Long Range 22lr, rated 1106 fps

CZ 455 Lilja, Sinclair Bipod
100 yards, wind variable 1 to 3 mph

Lateral spread is me, mistiming the squeeze
just as a puff of wind hit and caught me.

 

[Booner1334]

My take-away of the last three targets Justin posted (posts #251, #258 & #272).

My comments all pertain to the statistics his chronograph gave him.

Post # 251, Lapua Long Range w/lube
Hi vel. 1089, low vel. 1056, E.S. 33 fps, weighted ave. 1074.
The spread between the Hi vel to the weighted ave. is 15 fps; the spread between low vel. and weighted ave. 18 fps. (15+18=33).
The difference between the high and low spread from the weighted ave. would indicate to me that the ammo was pretty constant.

Post # 272 Lapua Super Long Range w/lube
Hi vel. 1101, Low vel. 1061, E.S. 40 fps, weighted ave. 1083.
The spread between the Hi vel. to the weighted ave. is 18 fps; the spread between the low vel. and weighted ave is 22 fps (18+22=40).
Again, the difference between the high and low spread from the weighted ave. indicates pretty constant ammo.

Post #258 Lapua Long Range w/o Lube
Hi vel. 1122, low vel. 1047, E.S. 75, weighted ave. 1071.
The spread between the Hi vel. to the weighted average is 51 fps; the spread between the low vel. and weighted ave. is 24 fps (51+24= 75).
The difference between the high vel. from the weighted average is twice as much as the low vel. to the weighted average. However, the weighted ave. for the No Lubed rounds is 3 fps lower than the other Long Range rounds (post 251), so I would assume there were only a few shots of the No Lubed rounds that shot at the high velocity level as the weighted ave. indicates this. The question for me is where did these high velocity rounds occur in the shot string? If it was in the first few shots, did these first rounds lay down a fouling layer that provided enough lubrication for the subsequent rounds? Or did the high velocity rounds occur late in the string and the increase in fouling created higher pressure? Even though the weighted ave. velocity between the No Lube rounds were only 3 fps lower than the other Longe Range rounds shot with lube, The Hi and low velocities were higher and lower by over twice as much in the non-lubed rounds than the same rounds with lube. I will admit that I was impressed with how good the No Lube group looked compared to the other groups. Maybe it takes more than 50 rounds of non-lubed rounds before you can see the effects of no lube on the bullet on the target?

 

[justin amateur]

I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.

 

[Booner1334]

I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.

I know all this shooting is a tough job, but you are the man that can do it.

I'm hoping you can pick up a pattern in the crony numbers as you progress with the shooting.

I hope you're having fun with all of this.

 

[chillywig]

I agree with you B.
It's going to need at least another morning with unlubed cartridges to understand what's happening.
Barrel has been cleaned, 200 cartridges have been de-lubed using turpentine.
Next calm morning the chronograph will be set up and 4 groups of 50 at 100 yards.
Record the chrony numbers/groups at 50 shot intervals and watch for changes.

Reading through this thread and got to the end. Did this test happen?

 

[justin amateur]

Hey chilly, lead deposits became a problem.
With a freshly cleaned bore, accuracy is similar,
but by the end of a full box of no-lube cartridges
lead deposits are visible (borescope) the length of the bore.
Lubrication is necessary to minimize the accretion of lead
and lengthen the intervals between cleanings.
This was what I expected to see, what was unexpected
was how well the unlubed bullets grouped.
But when you remember that lead can be used as a lubricant also,
it explains why the results from lube/no-lube are similar.
At least from the first box. As the cast bullet shooters pointed out,
lubrication is needed to slow the process of lead deposition.

Eley's blurb of lubricant being for facilitating chambering
was an incomplete statement. It's also needed to slow leading.

 

[6.5SH]

@justin amateur
Video with Chase Stroud you might be interested in. He also does testing with a whole box at 100 with an Oehler 89.

 

[Beachrider99]

So I went out today testing the Vudoo some more. I shot 5 shots then shot 5-25 across a magentospeed. Upon arrival the chamber was decarboned but had 600ish rounds on the barrel. after some action torque testing, I got that where I wanted. that was done at 50yds. I then moved to 100 for the 50rnd box at 104.4yds. I do believe I called the pulled shot low but cant be certain.

The rifle is an early vudoo 360, MTU 20", ATACR 7-35, TT Diamond, BA comp, Atlas bipod, rear bag. CX ammo.

I had pretty wild ES for CX (im thinking maybe because no carbon ring)?


@obx22 and I had a great day!

 

[RTH1800]

Do people really post “all day long” claims?
I often see the reticule of such claims but not the claims.

 

[justin amateur]

Yeah RT, folks still use that phrase.
There's something about the anonymity of the internet
that allows them to think they won't get flamed for it.

"sub moa all day long" - Google Search

But since I began asking folks to attempt the Grid,
or 50 at 100, or 50 at 200 yards, it's slowed a bit.

Asking them to "hit what they aim at" is unpopular too.

 

[RTH1800]

That is one of the reasons I don’t tell people what or how to shoot.

 

[justin amateur]

RT, I won't tell anyone what or how either, unless asked.

If someone makes the claim "all day long"
then I expect them to back it up, every time.
As my gramps said after listening to me brag
about the amazing accuracy of my first 22,
"Don't talk about it boy, show me."

Learned right quick, don't claim you can, if'n you can't.

 

[RTH1800]

Did not intend that to sound as harsh as it came out. I enjoy your post.

 

[MarkCZ]

I saw the part about one box at 100yds. But did you get to the part about tuners and how they work.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

First outing with Xmas present: Garmin Xero and lot tested Center X.
Shot out to 400 yards, easily hitting 12"x12" steel and occasional clay pigeons.
Surprised to find the consistency in ES and SD for this ammo.

In my relatively low informed analysis, although the ES and SD are approaching hand loaded center fire numbers, the proportions of the 22 LR statistical measures of mean and measure of variance [SD 7.2 fps of the average velocity of 1078.2 fps (0.67%)] is more impactful (pun intended) than that of a center fired examples [SD 10 fps of the average of 2750 fps (0.36%)].

This proportional effect is further amplified by wind and atmospherics that the 22LR bullet is more prone to experiencing than our center fired rounds.

Anyways, I hope you enjoy pouring over the data. By the way, the Garmin Xero C1 is awesome, didn't drop a shot, no need to carefully aim, 1/4 the packed volume of the MagnetoSpeed Sporter, and the battery had 50% remaining after 6 hrs at the range without turning it off in 37 deg weather.

YMMV, happy shooting

 

[D_TROS]

Rimx with steel 24” Proof prefit.

rounds 50-100 on barrel.
did 5x - 10 rnd groups as i reloaded mag.

the 2 smaller groups i used a smaller aiming pt. and sun was in eyes. very hard to focus.

all under 2”. smallest just over 1”. couple fliers/pulls ruined some good groups.

 

[justin amateur]

Keeping rimfire sub 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 50 consecutive shots is difficult.
With wind and mass produced cartridges, it's unlikely to happen.
Holding center is easy with a target reticle and 24X scope.
But atmospheric conditions and cartridge component/assembly variations,
means trajectory shifts are going to happen.

 

[grauhanen]

Keeping rimfire sub 1.5 inches at 100 yards for 50 consecutive shots is difficult.
With wind and mass produced cartridges, it's unlikely to happen.

The first time I shot 50 at 100, the results were surprising. Below is the target, with two obvious outliers.

The widest outside-to-outside measurement was 1.709" -- or about 1.5". (Edit: that's about 1.5" center-to-center.)

I've tried 50 at 100 on a couple of other occasions without equalling the results of the first time. That was a lucky box of entry level match ammo, but I must admit I'm reluctant to use the good stuff for this kind of test.

I would expect that most lots of match ammo would have enough outliers in each box that would make 50-round sub-1.5 MOA groups at 100 unusual.

 

[justin amateur]

Norma Xtreme LR-22 43 grain 22lr rated 1165 fps
100 yards, wind from my 8 o'clock at 2 to 5mph

CZ 455 Lilja, set trigger, Sinclair bipod and rear bag

Visible asymmetry on a few of the cartidges,
clean crimp line, decent looking cartridges.
Tight muzzle velocities 1204 fps high, 1187 avg, 1175 low for 50 shots
2 inches of vertical, 2 inches of horizontal,
36 of 50 impacted inside a 1 inch diameter hole, 14 outliers.

 

[Mr. Wolf]

Impressive!
Is this one of your better 50 shot groups?
Thanks and happy shooting.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Not sure how I missed this….

I’ll do this when I get a nice day here!

Lots of good shooting in this thread!

Sirhr

 

[justin amateur]

Hey Wolf.....no, not my best.
This is what I expect from a mid-grade cartridge at 100 yards.
All 50 shots stay inside a 2 moa circle when shot outdoors,
off the bench using an F-Class bipod and rear bag.

When I get a day with better conditions, I'll send 50 at 200 yards.
By the time I finished at 100 yards, wind was starting to pick up
and swing from my 5 to my 8. Not what I want to see
when trying a new cartridge at 200 yards.