Federal does it again 😅

Is brass even a reliable indicator of pressure? I've heard it argued on the hornady podcast that what are normal accepted signs of pressure on brass really aren't reliable indicators.
I'll say brass is a better indicator than steel. Why? The brass is softer than steel. So the primer pocket going sour and the primer going flat and hard bolt left show easier.

That being said... I tell guys just because you don't see flat primers or an ejector mark or hard bolt lift or an extraction issue doesn't mean that the pressure isn't there.

If you seen the thread on the 7-6.5PRC testing that was done (we made the pressure test barrel and I loaded all the ammo and Hornady did all the pressure testing) rounds that where at 70k psi showed no signs of flat primers or brass issues etc... and that's 5K psi above the max of 65k.

Here is a link to the thread....bullets used, powder and charges used are all listed. The lot numbers for the bullets, primers, powder and brass etc...where all recorded for us and Hornady for the test to keep track of.

 
However, how many traditional American hunters put 750+ rounds through a rifle barrel in that barrel's entire life? Most "hunters" that I know shoot 5-10 rounds per year.
Fudd meme.jpg
 
I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.


Maybe, or maybe not. Seekins said they developed the ph3 with high pressure cartridges in mind. The case fits deeper in the chamber to have more support.

I would assume the manufacturer's would test their action at a higher pressure though before offering it though.
 
I'm only seeing a 100fps difference on 195s out of a 24" barrel on 7prc vs Federal's published numbers for the BC. I'll ask the next animal I kill if it could tell the difference.
in the alterra video they said it rly only equals an extra 150ish yards if looking for 1800 impact velocity and youre still getting 900 plus with the 7 prc so most would never rly benefit. the ES and SDs they got were not great though, meaning lower hit rates
 
Maybe, or maybe not. Seekins said they developed the ph3 with high pressure cartridges in mind. The case fits deeper in the chamber to have more support.

I would assume the manufacturer's would test their action at a higher pressure though before offering it though.
missed that in the seekins vid, but maybe since this is the direction the industry is heading towards they've all collectively starting to design their actions with that in mind?
 
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I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.
Of course not. Federal is just gonna pass that liability along stating that any rifles chambered for their new 80k cartridges need to be capable of the increased pressure and the manufacture takes all liability from there.

Seekins has already addressed this and I’m sure others have or will as the bean counters run the roost.
 
Probably the unpopular opinion here, but I am happy to see a major manufacturer trying something different. While it may or may not fail, they are seeing if moving away from traditional brass cases/pressures could be of benefit. Yeah, steel cases have been around forever, but that was a cost cutting measure and they were loaded to normal SAAMI pressures. A lot of people are giving them a rash of shit for doing something new(ish) but if no one was trying to innovate then we would all still be shooting 30-06's with lighter bullets and slow twist rates. Reading threads where many immediately crap all over something before even having tried it is kind of perplexing. If all companies were constantly met with this much cynicism then screw trying to move the needle to the right, just keep making the same stuff. And yes, as stated earlier, I am sure this is the unpopular opinion.
Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.
 
Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.
Yes goyim, the industry is never wrong. That’s why the 6.8 western, the 30 super carry and the 21 sharp are such resounding successes. Buy our 4000$ wunderwaffen and skip the gym and the diet, those 1000 yard elks are awaitin
 
Yes goyim, the industry is never wrong. That’s why the 6.8 western, the 30 super carry and the 21 sharp are such resounding successes. Buy our 4000$ wunderwaffen and skip the gym and the diet, those 1000 yard elks are awaitin
You didn't need to prove my point, but thanks.
 
Here is one problem/issue no one is talking about.

The steel case heads don't show pressures like a normal brass case will.

So any of you playing with this (this isn't directed just at 45-90).... have any clue or had your custom loaded / wildcat ammo pressure tested to see what it's running at?

You can get into real dangerous pressures and not even know it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Frank, I have used your 7-6.5 data quite a bit, thanks for doing all that work. If guys end up reloading for these cases I think they will have to be reliant on powder/bullet/brass/barrel companies doing the testing and publishing that data to know the limits and keep it safe.
 
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With hybrid cases, and handloading you do not have to run the 80,000 psi for them to be useful.
If your favorite 308, 6.5 CM, etc, load is near the top or slightly over and you like the accuracy but do not like early loose primer pockets, or torn up brass...the hybrid cases will handle that pressure with no problem.

I also did a small accuracy test with 230 SMK in 9 twist 22" barreled 308.
Tens rds each of Lapua Palma SR, Lapua LR, and hybrid cases.
The smallest group and lowest S/D was with the Hybrid cases.
The Lapua SR primer was the worst of the lot, poorest group, largest velocity spread by alot.... and 40 fps lower velocity, all with the same charge.
The Stainless Steel case heads do not hold heat like brass...less energy is used in heat absortion, possibly transfers slightly to the velocity increase.
And possible to get lower S/D with slower powders to burn completely at higher pressures, depending on the powder.

I run hybrid cases in dual and triple lug bolts and feel as an opinion in experience, that the triple lug to be a stronger choice.
Although the dual lugs handle the pressure fine.
BAT actions have been running ridiculously high pressures as of late, well above the 80,000 psi.
So many others have been testing the high pressure cartridge idea for quite some time, adding their ideas.
I'm happy that Federal has entered this arena, with more ideas, and inventions to help complete the process to a successful and competitive conclusion, and rifle makers are stepping up.
I will be happy if they produce small 308 cases that out perform large magnum cases, or even the hybrid cases...its progress, and performance for all who want it...
 
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I'll say brass is a better indicator than steel. Why? The brass is softer than steel. So the primer pocket going sour and the primer going flat and hard bolt left show easier.

That being said... I tell guys just because you don't see flat primers or an ejector mark or hard bolt lift or an extraction issue doesn't mean that the pressure isn't there.

If you seen the thread on the 7-6.5PRC testing that was done (we made the pressure test barrel and I loaded all the ammo and Hornady did all the pressure testing) rounds that where at 70k psi showed no signs of flat primers or brass issues etc... and that's 5K psi above the max of 65k.

Here is a link to the thread....bullets used, powder and charges used are all listed. The lot numbers for the bullets, primers, powder and brass etc...where all recorded for us and Hornady for the test to keep track of.

I agree 100%. Steel cases or case heads is going to have reloaders pushing insane pressure simply because they don't see "signs". When I hear guys talking about the speeds they run I'm typically a bit shocked and question them on it. The answer usually involves some order of "well I don't get swipes so it's safe".
 
We don't have a magic orb that will tell us what the supply availability of imported powders will be in the future. It's very unfortunate and definitely a lesson learned but hardly "deceptive". If we could reliably get RL-26 in sufficient quantities, it'd be in every 7 PRC round we load.
Thanks for taking the time to reach out via private message. I believe we both learned something from the exchange.
 
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Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.
Some of us are most-likely smarter (logically) than the people who will buy this cartridge when it drops...We've seen this shit happen before many times, and therefore, are not too eager to get bent-over on something that will probably be fly-by-night. And we definitely know WAY more about guns, ammo, and ballistics than some corporate desk-jockey bean counter CEO who works at Federal. The people who will buy this immediately are the same ones who also jumped the gun to by a 6.8 Western, or a 6.5-300 Wby? How about a .22 Nosler, .22 Valkyrie, .400 Legend, .327 Magnum, or the .40 SuperCarry, and still never learned their lesson because, "this time it'll be different..." 🤣😂🤣

Also, the only demand is falsely created hype by paid youtube and gun editorial shills and marketing execs. This is literally an answer to a question we already have HAD the answers to for decades.

You have absolutely every right to be excited about it, but we also have that same right to call them out on their bullshit and falsely created hype. It's just like the same shit Hornady pulled when the 6.5 Creed first came out. They claimed it was a ".300 WinMag killer" in a short-action standard bolt face. And all the idiots bought that lie and created such a huge fake hype about it, it made it popular from its fake legendary capabilities. Is it a great cartridge? Sure. But the hype, fuddlore, and mystical properties that surrounded the cartridge was simply embarrassing on a magnitude I'd never seen before, prior to 2007. I can't tell you how many salesmen AND customers I heard saying how "all you need is a 6.5 Creed, a good scope, and Hornady ammo, and you're ready to shoot deer at 1,000 yards..." The hype they are trying to create around this cartridge is giving PTSD flashbacks of 2007/2008. 🤦🏼
 
Some of us are most-likely smarter (logically) than the people who will buy this cartridge when it drops...We've seen this shit happen before many times, and therefore, are not too eager to get bent-over on something that will probably be fly-by-night. And we definitely know WAY more about guns, ammo, and ballistics than some corporate desk-jockey bean counter CEO who works at Federal. The people who will buy this immediately are the same ones who also jumped the gun to by a 6.8 Western, or a 6.5-300 Wby? How about a .22 Nosler, .22 Valkyrie, .400 Legend, .327 Magnum, or the .40 SuperCarry, and still never learned their lesson because, "this time it'll be different..." 🤣😂🤣

Also, the only demand is falsely created hype by paid youtube and gun editorial shills and marketing execs. This is literally an answer to a question we already have HAD the answers to for decades.

You have absolutely every right to be excited about it, but we also have that same right to call them out on their bullshit and falsely created hype. It's just like the same shit Hornady pulled when the 6.5 Creed first came out. They claimed it was a ".300 WinMag killer" in a short-action standard bolt face. And all the idiots bought that lie and created such a huge fake hype about it, it made it popular from its fake legendary capabilities. Is it a great cartridge? Sure. But the hype, fuddlore, and mystical properties that surrounded the cartridge was simply embarrassing on a magnitude I'd never seen before, prior to 2007. I can't tell you how many salesmen AND customers I heard saying how "all you need is a 6.5 Creed, a good scope, and Hornady ammo, and you're ready to shoot deer at 1,000 yards..." The hype they are trying to create around this cartridge is giving PTSD flashbacks of 2007/2008. 🤦🏼
Excellent. It's always the shooter. I read once that sharpshooter can hit dead on the mark at a thousand yards. But hunter harvests at 300 yards or less. Meaning the hunter is practicing craft to get closer while undetected.

So, the next magical round is not going to make you more successful.
 
With todays high quality brass and modern actions, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of handloaders are shooting in the 65K -70Kpsi range and don’t even realize it.

Right? The reloading section is a constant parade of Bubba's extra-pissin'-hot loads and Snipers Hide 75ksi specials in tortured brass cases. But when discussion is on something actually designed for 80ksi with high strength steel in the right spots there seems to be a lot of "Oh lawdy, 80 thousands sure is a big numbah, don't know if I want to put my face next tuh that!"

I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.

I don't really see why they would have to, the bolt thrust from a .532 magnum at 65 ksi should be similar, or maybe a touch higher than the bolt thrust from a .473 case at 80ksi, pressure over the cross sectional area of the interior pressure vessel being the driver. That doesn't take into account that the high strength steel case is probably taking a higher proportion of the load as compared to a brass case when locked to the sidewalls under pressure, reducing thrust on the bolt itself.

I'm not really concerned about the safety of this cartridge, even in most existing modern actions. What bothers me is that the more videos I've seen, the more it seems like the reloading processes and products don't exist for it yet, and probably won't for a while, if ever. When they do, Federal seems to have a copyright of the name and a patent on some part of the case forming process that leads me to wonder if they might be the only real source for a while. Given their track record of component availability, I'd hate to be stuck trying to reload something I can only get from them.

Of course none of that is probably a concern for the Gunwerks crowd that the original release seems to be catering to.
 
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We don't have a magic orb that will tell us what the supply availability of imported powders will be in the future. It's very unfortunate and definitely a lesson learned but hardly "deceptive". If we could reliably get RL-26 in sufficient quantities, it'd be in every 7 PRC round we load.

Better shooting through chemistry.

A fixed amount of work happens when a fixed mass is accelerated to a fixed velocity. On a pressure to time plot, it is the area under the curve. The shape of that curve is important.

The magic sauce is in achieving the pressure quickly, sustaining it as the bullet accelerates down the barrel, and completing the burn while the bullet is still in the barrel.

I have memory of a range on hwy 225 in Pasadena or Deer Park when I was younger. I had gone there some with my father and last time was probably 50 years ago. I would swear it was an Olin refinery/processing plant of some sort there, and the range was out front. I don't know what product they made there. But the range did have Winchester ammo.

If there is not a reliable domestic supply of innovative and appropriate propellants for shooting, anything good is only by luck.

I've probably spent more on Hornady bullets in the last 30 years, than I have all other manufacturers combined. Please tell me that your suppliers for bullet manufacturing are more reliable than those supplying your ammo manufacturing.
 
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Brass is on a sliding scale for cold work. Cold work determines the hardness and strength of the head. There is also quite a bit of variation in internal shape on various sizes/mfgs. of cases so there's a bit of change in the stress/strain profile based on that, too...

Having said that, case head ejector swipes or ejector slot imprints almost necessarily mean you're over 70-74ksi. Flattened primers can be artificially created with excessive headspace at very low pressure, but they're on a sliding scale where they start looking bad in the upper 60's to 80's (in a properly built rifle). Primer cratering is heavily influenced by FP/bolt fit, powder burn rate, powder/bullet combo etc... So it's more of a relative thing, not an outright indication. Extractor slot/web expansion is another one that guarantees over 70ksi.

What I generally tell people is that if you see any form of flattened primer or especially ejector swipe/indent you can almost bet you're well over the recommended pressure limit for that cartridge.

No experience here with steel cases and my only experience with high pressure testing is on accident or testing Snipers Hide load data.
Can't a lubed chamber result in swipes/indents even at safe pressure due to increased bolt thrust?
 
I think these new steel cases are best used in 7.62NATO to improve ballistics in existing military weapons.
In the 80'ies we used the MG34 in 7.62NATO in the Norwegian NG. We tuned a couple of these for accuracy with matchbarrels and fitted modern scopes. Short full auto bursts shot 1.5moa over sandbags with matchammo. We then also made conversion kits to 6.5x55 using old 8x57 parts in the feeding mechanism and Schultz&Larsen and Shilen(!) match barrels. With 6.5x55 factory matchammo for M98 rifles, 144gr fmj "D" bullets@2750fps/.55bc, these MG34s had much higher first burst hit ratio than custom magnum bolt sniperrifles at 1000 - 1200m+ at the time.
The new steel case technology, in a 7.62NATO modern accurate LMG, will outperform most magnum bolt action sniperrifles with first burst hits out to 13 - 1400m compared to cold bore shots from a bolt rifle. This from weapons with almost the same weight. What would you carry in Afghanistan then? A scoped LMG with 50 rounds in the box or a bolt rifle with 5 rounds in the magazine? 😎
 
You don’t want an 80ksi factory load going into actions that can’t handle it, but I do think there is a ton of potential for short action cartridges with steel heads, as 45-90 has demonstrated with re-sized 6.8x51 cases.
Sure but 99% of even "classic" actions like Win mod 70 can take magnum pressures on a magnum boltface. Work out the bolt thrust on a wet 300winmag case at 65000psi then do the standard bolt face at 80000psi, the magnum is still 6+% higher, that's being cautious and assumingthe steel will yield like brass. Hoop stress in barrel and action, again, heaps more meat in the barrel and less hoop circumference.

I don't think anyone is going to order high alloy 303 Brit cases and send 80000psi into a mark 2 SMLE, if they do they deserve what comes. People know the bolts in those fail with standard 308 loads on barrel Conversions.
 
I do wish they'd done short action instead of something 30-06 based. Something based on 284 with the shoulders set back a bit for longer seating would have been just as potent, might sacrifice one in the mag, but then your entire gun would be shorter and lighter. Or go for something like a 7SS/SAUM based case, and it would be an absolute blowtorch for three shots.
 
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I do wish they'd done short action instead of something 30-06 based. Something based on 284 with the shoulders set back a bit for longer seating would have been just as potent, might sacrifice one in the mag, but then your entire gun would be shorter and lighter. Or go for something like a 7SS/SAUM based case, and it would be an absolute blowtorch for three shots.
Had they gone short action, they would have been seen as a peer competitor with the SIG 277 Fury and a lot of their target market would not take much notice.

By comparing it with 7mm PRC, they’re swinging for the bleachers and into the 7 Magnum or Weatherby-type hunters, while also offering options for the working man with Savage SKUs.

I’m just looking at it with a combined disciplinary set from the business side, as well as the technical aspects of internal and external ballistics.

I think it’s a smart move. Their other new cartridge attempts have fallen pretty flat over the past several decades.

.338 Federal
.224 Valkyrie (They have supported this one fairly well with affordable ammo, but it has minimal traction.)
30 Super Carry

Biggest question always is, what problem does this solve and is it enough for a large amount of people to get interested.

The 7mm Magnum performance from a short barrel offers something for hunters who want to suppress and not have a beast of a rifle to lug around, so I think it will have some traction in that space.
 
Had they gone short action, they would have been seen as a peer competitor with the SIG 277 Fury and a lot of their target market would not take much notice.

By comparing it with 7mm PRC, they’re swinging for the bleachers and into the 7 Magnum or Weatherby-type hunters, while also offering options for the working man with Savage SKUs.

I’m just looking at it with a combined disciplinary set from the business side, as well as the technical aspects of internal and external ballistics.

I think it’s a smart move. Their other new cartridge attempts have fallen pretty flat over the past several decades.

.338 Federal
.224 Valkyrie (They have supported this one fairly well with affordable ammo, but it has minimal traction.)
30 Super Carry

Biggest question always is, what problem does this solve and is it enough for a large amount of people to get interested.

The 7mm Magnum performance from a short barrel offers something for hunters who want to suppress and not have a beast of a rifle to lug around, so I think it will have some traction in that space.

If they would have based it on a 284, they could have literally have achieved the same velocity goals while also being shorter and lighter. It's case capacity is within a couple of grains of 280 rem, I believe.

And you can shoot short action cartridges in long actions, but not the other way around. Then you could advertise 7RUM velocity, and shorter, and lighter, and probably an extra round in the mag. Fits into any rifle.

I wouldn't worry about 277. I mean, if you're scared to compete with it, but you're not scared of 7rm/7prc/28nos/7rum... 😬
 
Color me skeptical that this will be “the next big thing”. Still a trail of tears and pricey builds collecting dust over 224 valk not truly being what the cool kids said .
And the one pistol and 3 boxes of .30 sport duper 9mm killer carry still on clearance at my LGS .

But we could also be bitching that the industry was sitting on its ass and not coming up with anything new and more betterer to separate us from our Failing fiat currency.
 
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Color me skeptical that this will be “the next big thing”. Still a trail of tears and pricey builds collecting dust over 225 valk not truly being what the cool kids said .
And the one pistol and 3 boxes of .30 sport duper 9mm killer carry still on clearance at my LGS .

But we could also be bitching thay the industry was sitting on its ass and not coming up with anything new and more betterer to separate us from our Faulk g fiat currency.
No kidding, a brilliant response.

And I say that after having drank the koolaid and getting a 7 PRC. So, I cannot exactly besmirch others for trying the next new thing but I would pass on this one. It does not check any boxes for me. I will stick with my long action and 24 inch barrel.
 
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Watching how hard it is to hit 1 MOA cold bore at 500 in the prone with a 20# rifle, WTF use is another louddnboomer?
Remember that tikka 300wing mag hunter that completely disgraced hisself on that accuracy challenge and then after his horrible performance still affirmed that 500 yards was still an ethical distance with his equipment.

 
Remember that tikka 300wing mag hunter that completely disgraced hisself on that accuracy challenge and then after his horrible performance still affirmed that 500 yards was still an ethical distance with his equipment.


I must have missed that one. I can only watch so much of that stuff before my social fitness limitations rear their ugly head. In reality, 2 MOA is probably more realistic, but the constant parade of 1/2 MOA claims from generic prone/bench recreational shooters begs for a put up or shut up challenge.
 
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Remember that tikka 300wing mag hunter that completely disgraced hisself on that accuracy challenge and then after his horrible performance still affirmed that 500 yards was still an ethical distance with his equipment.



I just watched that episode the other day... and as a Army veteran, I felt bad for the marine vets out there that had to be cringing and annoyed heavily with that guy....

I can say the Marines may be partly at fault in so much as their confidence building course in rifle marksmanship... yeah they shoot at targets at 500m where as the Army ranges only go out to 300m.... BUT the Army targets are man sized.... the marine targets at 500m are... JEEP sized.... so it's literally point target vs area target. But making hits with irons at that distance did instill some extra confidence that allegedly will cause marines to start to engage at longer distances (that's the going theory anyway). 🤷‍♂️ But yeah while that caliber had the umph in that challenge for sure, and the rifle may have been able to do it with the right ammo, scope and guy behind the gun.... He was no where near it.

His answer at the end didn't help him any either.

(I was at least happy he spent a bunch of money in .300WM LOL, serves him right....is that wrong of me?)
 
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I just watched that episode the other day... and as a Army veteran, I felt bad for the marine vets out there that had to be cringing and annoyed heavily with that guy....

I can say the Marines may be partly at fault in so much as their confidence building course in rifle marksmanship... yeah they shoot at targets at 500m where as the Army ranges only go out to 300m.... BUT the Army targets are man sized.... the marine targets at 500m are... JEEP sized.... so it's literally point target vs area target. But making hits with irons at that distance did instill some extra confidence that allegedly will cause marines to start to engage at longer distances (that's the going theory anyway). 🤷‍♂️ But yeah while that caliber had the umph in that challenge for sure, and the rifle may have been able to do it with the right ammo, scope and guy behind the gun.... He was no where near it.

His answer at the end didn't help him any either.

(I was at least happy he spent a bunch of money in .300WM LOL, serves him right....is that wrong of me?)

Meh, Marines have a history of bragging about their marksmanship until it comes time to shoot without any 'love' from the pits 😄. Plus the small side of their 500 yard target is still almost 4 MOA (40"x20" silhouette).

But yes, cringeworthy for sure. I really tire from the "I was military so..." especially when it comes to marksmanship (shooting teams exempt).
 
If we honestly scored the military marksmanship badges, they wouldn’t have these labels:

iu


This is what they really mean.

EXPERT: You did the absolute basics of what we asked and suck the least of all initial entry recruits. This is a minimum standard.

SHARPSHOOTER: You suck at shooting. No chili Mac for you at the chow hall, no desserts until you level-up.

MARKSMAN: You barely qualified and need remedial training.

It’s a way of building confidence for guys who never shot before and have no formal training in BRM.

It really needs way more levels of development and scoring both in Initial Entry and in the units.
 
Remember that tikka 300wing mag hunter that completely disgraced hisself on that accuracy challenge and then after his horrible performance still affirmed that 500 yards was still an ethical distance with his equipment.


I guess my memory is already shitting upon me. I could swear that Mike the Marine said he could take a game animal at 600 yards. With what he has. Yardage makes a different. I am comfortable to 300 yards and in, depending caliber and velocity. If I choose 2k fps as my target impact velocity threshold, then that also defines range. For example, a 165 gr .308 I use, It is still around 2047 fps at 350 yards. So, given velocity spreads, that would be the outer limit.

Also, the limits are the dispersion of the whole system. A crappy shooter can take a .75 MOA rifle and become a 2 MOA system. And the actual zone on a whitetail deer where you can hit both heart and lungs is about an 8 inch pie plate. If using MPBR, then 200 yards is about the max. Which is a moot point where I can hit. So densely wooded, the farthest I have seen through the treets is 100 yards and 70 yards and closer are the more common shots.

So, yeah, it doesn't matter if .300 WM can perform at that distance.

And yeah, Mike the Marine should have picked a lower recoiling rifle like a 6.5 Manbun to answer the challenge.

And yes, I think Jim Harmer was counting on this event being a total shit show for the precise purpose of getting clicks and view and driving the algorithm. He is a businessman, after all.
 
No kidding, a brilliant response.

And I say that after having drank the koolaid and getting a 7 PRC. So, I cannot exactly besmirch others for trying the next new thing but I would pass on this one. It does not check any boxes for me. I will stick with my long action and 24 inch barrel.

Funny you mention that. I was in the 6.5/7 prc research camp as well, as recently as last month.

the majority of arguments I saw to pass on 308 or 6.5 creedmoor and go to 6.5 or 7 prc were "not enough gun past 500 yards" for elk hunting.

Then I did some more research. Every bit of data I found showed that the average elk hunt distance was WELL below 500 yards to begin with. 325 yards was around the max distance I got out of every response I summed up and averaged in every hunting forum I could find..and the amount of responses that was at or above 500 yards was laughably low.

This "not enough gun" bullshit is just what some portion of the hunting consumer will always use to excuse poor shot placement.
 
All I know is that if Roy Weatherby was still around, his pants would be tight.

He was probably mainly responsible for the bullet manufacturers having to make tougher hunting projectiles that wouldn’t explode anymore, since he was chasing 3400fps mv with many of his cartridges.

Nosler responded with the Partition, then Barnes made the X bullets. Then came bonded bullets after Partitions were blowing the lead core out the back from hydrodynamic pressure and insane impact speeds.

That’s what drives American ingenuity though. More, more, more, MOAR!

Nobody wants to hear that late 1800s through early 1900s cartridges are perfectly-fine for hunting.

7.92x57 Mauser
7.62x54R
.30-06 Springfield
7x57 Mauser
6.5x55 Mauser
6.5x54 Mannlicher-Shönauer
250-3000 Savage
257 Roberts

One thing I’d like to see more of is high-speed photography of projectile and powder exit behavior, because most rifle cartridges don’t convert the powder fully, and send a significant % of unburnt powder out the muzzle.
 
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Funny you mention that. I was in the 6.5/7 prc research camp as well, as recently as last month.

the majority of arguments I saw to pass on 308 or 6.5 creedmoor and go to 6.5 or 7 prc were "not enough gun past 500 yards" for elk hunting.

Then I did some more research. Every bit of data I found showed that the average elk hunt distance was WELL below 500 yards to begin with. 325 yards was around the max distance I got out of every response I summed up and averaged in every hunting forum I could find..and the amount of responses that was at or above 500 yards was laughably low.

This "not enough gun" bullshit is just what some portion of the hunting consumer will always use to excuse poor shot placement.
Of the 16 western big game animals I’ve been present for or shot (8 me 8 friends or family), average shot distance is ~310 yards. 4 of them over 500 and 2 over 600. Farthest is 660
 
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I would love to know
missed that in the seekins vid, but maybe since this is the direction the industry is heading towards they've all collectively starting to design their actions with that in mind?

This is THE only question I have. Different alloy? I mean, they can't change the dimensions of the receivers- too much rides on that standardization.

Or, are they gonna tell us they've always been good for 80,000 psi?

Savage?

 
Funny you mention that. I was in the 6.5/7 prc research camp as well, as recently as last month.

the majority of arguments I saw to pass on 308 or 6.5 creedmoor and go to 6.5 or 7 prc were "not enough gun past 500 yards" for elk hunting.

Then I did some more research. Every bit of data I found showed that the average elk hunt distance was WELL below 500 yards to begin with. 325 yards was around the max distance I got out of every response I summed up and averaged in every hunting forum I could find..and the amount of responses that was at or above 500 yards was laughably low.

This "not enough gun" bullshit is just what some portion of the hunting consumer will always use to excuse poor shot placement.
Adam at Who Tee Who does well with spread sheets and drop graphs. All calibers are within an inch or so of each other to about 500 yards. Past 500 yards, 7 PRC pulls away in performance as far as having less drop and, of course, that lovely BC.

So, really, that means you could do long range targets with it. However, it is a magnum round and has a bit of muzzle flip. I know when I shoot, I keep my eye in the scope but it may take a second and scooting the rifle an inch to get back in view.

And so, I think plenty of guys are going with 6.5 CM because it has less recoil and muzzle flip if just shooting long distance, though I know some are hunting with it. In target shooting, one is just punching paper or clanging steel, no animals are wounded in that process.

And I have seen a guy take down a moose with a 6.5 CM. I would not. I would bring my 7 PRC or one of my .308s.

As you have seen, even with elk hunting, most people are not even getting past 400 yards. So, that depends on the metric one choose for impact. Is it energy or velocity? Velocity is important for expansion of the bullet. Too slow and it may not open enough. Here is the thing I have learned. Different bullets, regardless of caliber, do different things at different distances because of the impact velocities at those distances. For example, a bullet that works right at 300 yards may not do what is needed at 600 yards because of the velocity.

People tend to think in energy, sometimes. For example, Google will show that the wildlife department in Colorado recommends at least 1500 ft-lbs of energy on elk. But you could have a high energy bullet pencil through if the bullet does not open up and do some damage. OTOH, there are some who swear upon using monolithic copper because there is not a jacket separate and shatter, it is more likely to stay somewhat intact and create an exit wound.

So, the reasoning for some about using at least a 7 or even a .30 cal is to have wider diameter projectiles impacting, though not that much wider.

I have not been western hunting. But there are mule deer in my state and the state has a drawing to win a mule deer permit. And they advise being competent to at least 200 yards. the hunt is in a canyon that no trees, just rocks and scrub brush. You get assigne a compartment and safe direction of fire.

I have seen some long range hunters hitting the mark.

I also have heard about people wounding animals and I have not seen documentation of that, just anecdotal.

But I also have read the statement that a sharpshooter can shoot a 1 MOA target at 1k yards but a hunter harvests game at less than 300 yards.

I had a long discussion with someone about the ethical distance. After much teeth-pulling, I got him to stand solid on 400 yards.

My comfort zone is 300 yards and where I hunt has distances averaging 50 - 70 yards through a lot of trees.
 
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“Most hunters” probably shouldn’t take a shot past 300yards I’d wager… not on the east coast anyway, luckily for the animals there’s not usually enough clear view to take a shot much further than that. Gravity isn’t the issue it’s the wind holds and people taking stupid shots because muh .300WM 🙄

Shot placement has always been king.

I have to wonder how many hunters even have a means of holding off for wind in their reticle?
 
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