Federal does it again 😅

[Frank Green]

Is brass even a reliable indicator of pressure? I've heard it argued on the hornady podcast that what are normal accepted signs of pressure on brass really aren't reliable indicators.

I'll say brass is a better indicator than steel. Why? The brass is softer than steel. So the primer pocket going sour and the primer going flat and hard bolt left show easier.

That being said... I tell guys just because you don't see flat primers or an ejector mark or hard bolt lift or an extraction issue doesn't mean that the pressure isn't there.

If you seen the thread on the 7-6.5PRC testing that was done (we made the pressure test barrel and I loaded all the ammo and Hornady did all the pressure testing) rounds that where at 70k psi showed no signs of flat primers or brass issues etc... and that's 5K psi above the max of 65k.

Here is a link to the thread....bullets used, powder and charges used are all listed. The lot numbers for the bullets, primers, powder and brass etc...where all recorded for us and Hornady for the test to keep track of.

7-6.5 PRC

Good to see the shooting industry working together like that. If we can get past the supply issues I can see the sport growing in popularity. We need to get more young people into the sport, most shooters I know are older than me and I'm far from young!

www.snipershide.com

 

[beetroot]

However, how many traditional American hunters put 750+ rounds through a rifle barrel in that barrel's entire life? Most "hunters" that I know shoot 5-10 rounds per year.

 

[st1650]

With todays high quality brass and modern actions, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of handloaders are shooting in the 65K -70Kpsi range and don’t even realize it.

 

[Frank Green]

With todays high quality brass and modern actions, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of handloaders are shooting in the 65K -70Kpsi range and don’t even realize it.

Yep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ceramik]

I'm only seeing a 100fps difference on 195s out of a 24" barrel on 7prc vs Federal's published numbers for the BC. I'll ask the next animal I kill if it could tell the difference.

 

[tacoman69]

Federal states it as part of the press release…

I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.

 

[jbuck88]

I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.

Maybe, or maybe not. Seekins said they developed the ph3 with high pressure cartridges in mind. The case fits deeper in the chamber to have more support.

I would assume the manufacturer's would test their action at a higher pressure though before offering it though.

 

[tacoman69]

I'm only seeing a 100fps difference on 195s out of a 24" barrel on 7prc vs Federal's published numbers for the BC. I'll ask the next animal I kill if it could tell the difference.

in the alterra video they said it rly only equals an extra 150ish yards if looking for 1800 impact velocity and youre still getting 900 plus with the 7 prc so most would never rly benefit. the ES and SDs they got were not great though, meaning lower hit rates

 

[tacoman69]

Maybe, or maybe not. Seekins said they developed the ph3 with high pressure cartridges in mind. The case fits deeper in the chamber to have more support.

I would assume the manufacturer's would test their action at a higher pressure though before offering it though.

missed that in the seekins vid, but maybe since this is the direction the industry is heading towards they've all collectively starting to design their actions with that in mind?

 

[Long Range 338]

I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.

Of course not. Federal is just gonna pass that liability along stating that any rifles chambered for their new 80k cartridges need to be capable of the increased pressure and the manufacture takes all liability from there.

Seekins has already addressed this and I’m sure others have or will as the bean counters run the roost.

 

[3rdfocal]

Probably the unpopular opinion here, but I am happy to see a major manufacturer trying something different. While it may or may not fail, they are seeing if moving away from traditional brass cases/pressures could be of benefit. Yeah, steel cases have been around forever, but that was a cost cutting measure and they were loaded to normal SAAMI pressures. A lot of people are giving them a rash of shit for doing something new(ish) but if no one was trying to innovate then we would all still be shooting 30-06's with lighter bullets and slow twist rates. Reading threads where many immediately crap all over something before even having tried it is kind of perplexing. If all companies were constantly met with this much cynicism then screw trying to move the needle to the right, just keep making the same stuff. And yes, as stated earlier, I am sure this is the unpopular opinion.

Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.

 

[st1650]

Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.

Yes goyim, the industry is never wrong. That’s why the 6.8 western, the 30 super carry and the 21 sharp are such resounding successes. Buy our 4000$ wunderwaffen and skip the gym and the diet, those 1000 yard elks are awaitin

 

[3rdfocal]

Yes goyim, the industry is never wrong. That’s why the 6.8 western, the 30 super carry and the 21 sharp are such resounding successes. Buy our 4000$ wunderwaffen and skip the gym and the diet, those 1000 yard elks are awaitin

You didn't need to prove my point, but thanks.

 

[3rdfocal]

Here is one problem/issue no one is talking about.

The steel case heads don't show pressures like a normal brass case will.

So any of you playing with this (this isn't directed just at 45-90).... have any clue or had your custom loaded / wildcat ammo pressure tested to see what it's running at?

You can get into real dangerous pressures and not even know it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Frank, I have used your 7-6.5 data quite a bit, thanks for doing all that work. If guys end up reloading for these cases I think they will have to be reliant on powder/bullet/brass/barrel companies doing the testing and publishing that data to know the limits and keep it safe.

 

[45-90]

With hybrid cases, and handloading you do not have to run the 80,000 psi for them to be useful.
If your favorite 308, 6.5 CM, etc, load is near the top or slightly over and you like the accuracy but do not like early loose primer pockets, or torn up brass...the hybrid cases will handle that pressure with no problem.

I also did a small accuracy test with 230 SMK in 9 twist 22" barreled 308.
Tens rds each of Lapua Palma SR, Lapua LR, and hybrid cases.
The smallest group and lowest S/D was with the Hybrid cases.
The Lapua SR primer was the worst of the lot, poorest group, largest velocity spread by alot.... and 40 fps lower velocity, all with the same charge.
The Stainless Steel case heads do not hold heat like brass...less energy is used in heat absortion, possibly transfers slightly to the velocity increase.
And possible to get lower S/D with slower powders to burn completely at higher pressures, depending on the powder.

I run hybrid cases in dual and triple lug bolts and feel as an opinion in experience, that the triple lug to be a stronger choice.
Although the dual lugs handle the pressure fine.
BAT actions have been running ridiculously high pressures as of late, well above the 80,000 psi.
So many others have been testing the high pressure cartridge idea for quite some time, adding their ideas.
I'm happy that Federal has entered this arena, with more ideas, and inventions to help complete the process to a successful and competitive conclusion, and rifle makers are stepping up.
I will be happy if they produce small 308 cases that out perform large magnum cases, or even the hybrid cases...its progress, and performance for all who want it...

 

[AirgunnerPCP]

I'll say brass is a better indicator than steel. Why? The brass is softer than steel. So the primer pocket going sour and the primer going flat and hard bolt left show easier.

That being said... I tell guys just because you don't see flat primers or an ejector mark or hard bolt lift or an extraction issue doesn't mean that the pressure isn't there.

If you seen the thread on the 7-6.5PRC testing that was done (we made the pressure test barrel and I loaded all the ammo and Hornady did all the pressure testing) rounds that where at 70k psi showed no signs of flat primers or brass issues etc... and that's 5K psi above the max of 65k.

Here is a link to the thread....bullets used, powder and charges used are all listed. The lot numbers for the bullets, primers, powder and brass etc...where all recorded for us and Hornady for the test to keep track of.

7-6.5 PRC

Good to see the shooting industry working together like that. If we can get past the supply issues I can see the sport growing in popularity. We need to get more young people into the sport, most shooters I know are older than me and I'm far from young!

www.snipershide.com

I agree 100%. Steel cases or case heads is going to have reloaders pushing insane pressure simply because they don't see "signs". When I hear guys talking about the speeds they run I'm typically a bit shocked and question them on it. The answer usually involves some order of "well I don't get swipes so it's safe".

 

[Holliday]

We don't have a magic orb that will tell us what the supply availability of imported powders will be in the future. It's very unfortunate and definitely a lesson learned but hardly "deceptive". If we could reliably get RL-26 in sufficient quantities, it'd be in every 7 PRC round we load.

Thanks for taking the time to reach out via private message. I believe we both learned something from the exchange.

 

[FuhQ]

Not that unpopular of an opinion. Typical of SH, a couple loud mouths relentlessly bash something they don't like or understand and it causes people to not want to talk about it. Federal is smarter than all of them and they're gonna make a pile of money off this cartridge. While I'm not running out to buy it I know a couple guys who are trying to decide which new rifle in 7BC to buy. Seekins, proof, geissele, and a bunch of other companies obviously know there is a demand for what this round brings.

Some of us are most-likely smarter (logically) than the people who will buy this cartridge when it drops...We've seen this shit happen before many times, and therefore, are not too eager to get bent-over on something that will probably be fly-by-night. And we definitely know WAY more about guns, ammo, and ballistics than some corporate desk-jockey bean counter CEO who works at Federal. The people who will buy this immediately are the same ones who also jumped the gun to by a 6.8 Western, or a 6.5-300 Wby? How about a .22 Nosler, .22 Valkyrie, .400 Legend, .327 Magnum, or the .40 SuperCarry, and still never learned their lesson because, "this time it'll be different..."

Also, the only demand is falsely created hype by paid youtube and gun editorial shills and marketing execs. This is literally an answer to a question we already have HAD the answers to for decades.

You have absolutely every right to be excited about it, but we also have that same right to call them out on their bullshit and falsely created hype. It's just like the same shit Hornady pulled when the 6.5 Creed first came out. They claimed it was a ".300 WinMag killer" in a short-action standard bolt face. And all the idiots bought that lie and created such a huge fake hype about it, it made it popular from its fake legendary capabilities. Is it a great cartridge? Sure. But the hype, fuddlore, and mystical properties that surrounded the cartridge was simply embarrassing on a magnitude I'd never seen before, prior to 2007. I can't tell you how many salesmen AND customers I heard saying how "all you need is a 6.5 Creed, a good scope, and Hornady ammo, and you're ready to shoot deer at 1,000 yards..." The hype they are trying to create around this cartridge is giving PTSD flashbacks of 2007/2008.

 

[Ronws]

Some of us are most-likely smarter (logically) than the people who will buy this cartridge when it drops...We've seen this shit happen before many times, and therefore, are not too eager to get bent-over on something that will probably be fly-by-night. And we definitely know WAY more about guns, ammo, and ballistics than some corporate desk-jockey bean counter CEO who works at Federal. The people who will buy this immediately are the same ones who also jumped the gun to by a 6.8 Western, or a 6.5-300 Wby? How about a .22 Nosler, .22 Valkyrie, .400 Legend, .327 Magnum, or the .40 SuperCarry, and still never learned their lesson because, "this time it'll be different..."

Also, the only demand is falsely created hype by paid youtube and gun editorial shills and marketing execs. This is literally an answer to a question we already have HAD the answers to for decades.

You have absolutely every right to be excited about it, but we also have that same right to call them out on their bullshit and falsely created hype. It's just like the same shit Hornady pulled when the 6.5 Creed first came out. They claimed it was a ".300 WinMag killer" in a short-action standard bolt face. And all the idiots bought that lie and created such a huge fake hype about it, it made it popular from its fake legendary capabilities. Is it a great cartridge? Sure. But the hype, fuddlore, and mystical properties that surrounded the cartridge was simply embarrassing on a magnitude I'd never seen before, prior to 2007. I can't tell you how many salesmen AND customers I heard saying how "all you need is a 6.5 Creed, a good scope, and Hornady ammo, and you're ready to shoot deer at 1,000 yards..." The hype they are trying to create around this cartridge is giving PTSD flashbacks of 2007/2008.

Excellent. It's always the shooter. I read once that sharpshooter can hit dead on the mark at a thousand yards. But hunter harvests at 300 yards or less. Meaning the hunter is practicing craft to get closer while undetected.

So, the next magical round is not going to make you more successful.

 

[abn31c]

I'm holding out for the Shermanized version cause 195's @ 3600 from a 18" barrel and no pressure signs be calling my name!!!!

 

[Gtscotty]

With todays high quality brass and modern actions, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of handloaders are shooting in the 65K -70Kpsi range and don’t even realize it.

Right? The reloading section is a constant parade of Bubba's extra-pissin'-hot loads and Snipers Hide 75ksi specials in tortured brass cases. But when discussion is on something actually designed for 80ksi with high strength steel in the right spots there seems to be a lot of "Oh lawdy, 80 thousands sure is a big numbah, don't know if I want to put my face next tuh that!"

I doubt all these manuf are going to one off and make one super special action variant for their models that are chambered in 7bc.

I don't really see why they would have to, the bolt thrust from a .532 magnum at 65 ksi should be similar, or maybe a touch higher than the bolt thrust from a .473 case at 80ksi, pressure over the cross sectional area of the interior pressure vessel being the driver. That doesn't take into account that the high strength steel case is probably taking a higher proportion of the load as compared to a brass case when locked to the sidewalls under pressure, reducing thrust on the bolt itself.

I'm not really concerned about the safety of this cartridge, even in most existing modern actions. What bothers me is that the more videos I've seen, the more it seems like the reloading processes and products don't exist for it yet, and probably won't for a while, if ever. When they do, Federal seems to have a copyright of the name and a patent on some part of the case forming process that leads me to wonder if they might be the only real source for a while. Given their track record of component availability, I'd hate to be stuck trying to reload something I can only get from them.

Of course none of that is probably a concern for the Gunwerks crowd that the original release seems to be catering to.

 

[anon]

We don't have a magic orb that will tell us what the supply availability of imported powders will be in the future. It's very unfortunate and definitely a lesson learned but hardly "deceptive". If we could reliably get RL-26 in sufficient quantities, it'd be in every 7 PRC round we load.

Better shooting through chemistry.

A fixed amount of work happens when a fixed mass is accelerated to a fixed velocity. On a pressure to time plot, it is the area under the curve. The shape of that curve is important.

The magic sauce is in achieving the pressure quickly, sustaining it as the bullet accelerates down the barrel, and completing the burn while the bullet is still in the barrel.

I have memory of a range on hwy 225 in Pasadena or Deer Park when I was younger. I had gone there some with my father and last time was probably 50 years ago. I would swear it was an Olin refinery/processing plant of some sort there, and the range was out front. I don't know what product they made there. But the range did have Winchester ammo.

If there is not a reliable domestic supply of innovative and appropriate propellants for shooting, anything good is only by luck.

I've probably spent more on Hornady bullets in the last 30 years, than I have all other manufacturers combined. Please tell me that your suppliers for bullet manufacturing are more reliable than those supplying your ammo manufacturing.

 

[The_Steward]

Brass is on a sliding scale for cold work. Cold work determines the hardness and strength of the head. There is also quite a bit of variation in internal shape on various sizes/mfgs. of cases so there's a bit of change in the stress/strain profile based on that, too...

Having said that, case head ejector swipes or ejector slot imprints almost necessarily mean you're over 70-74ksi. Flattened primers can be artificially created with excessive headspace at very low pressure, but they're on a sliding scale where they start looking bad in the upper 60's to 80's (in a properly built rifle). Primer cratering is heavily influenced by FP/bolt fit, powder burn rate, powder/bullet combo etc... So it's more of a relative thing, not an outright indication. Extractor slot/web expansion is another one that guarantees over 70ksi.

What I generally tell people is that if you see any form of flattened primer or especially ejector swipe/indent you can almost bet you're well over the recommended pressure limit for that cartridge.

No experience here with steel cases and my only experience with high pressure testing is on accident or testing Snipers Hide load data.

Can't a lubed chamber result in swipes/indents even at safe pressure due to increased bolt thrust?

 

[TorF]

I think these new steel cases are best used in 7.62NATO to improve ballistics in existing military weapons.
In the 80'ies we used the MG34 in 7.62NATO in the Norwegian NG. We tuned a couple of these for accuracy with matchbarrels and fitted modern scopes. Short full auto bursts shot 1.5moa over sandbags with matchammo. We then also made conversion kits to 6.5x55 using old 8x57 parts in the feeding mechanism and Schultz&Larsen and Shilen(!) match barrels. With 6.5x55 factory matchammo for M98 rifles, 144gr fmj "D" bullets@2750fps/.55bc, these MG34s had much higher first burst hit ratio than custom magnum bolt sniperrifles at 1000 - 1200m+ at the time.
The new steel case technology, in a 7.62NATO modern accurate LMG, will outperform most magnum bolt action sniperrifles with first burst hits out to 13 - 1400m compared to cold bore shots from a bolt rifle. This from weapons with almost the same weight. What would you carry in Afghanistan then? A scoped LMG with 50 rounds in the box or a bolt rifle with 5 rounds in the magazine?

 

[Slides]

You don’t want an 80ksi factory load going into actions that can’t handle it, but I do think there is a ton of potential for short action cartridges with steel heads, as 45-90 has demonstrated with re-sized 6.8x51 cases.

Sure but 99% of even "classic" actions like Win mod 70 can take magnum pressures on a magnum boltface. Work out the bolt thrust on a wet 300winmag case at 65000psi then do the standard bolt face at 80000psi, the magnum is still 6+% higher, that's being cautious and assumingthe steel will yield like brass. Hoop stress in barrel and action, again, heaps more meat in the barrel and less hoop circumference.

I don't think anyone is going to order high alloy 303 Brit cases and send 80000psi into a mark 2 SMLE, if they do they deserve what comes. People know the bolts in those fail with standard 308 loads on barrel Conversions.