The guy is full of shit and he’s a liar. Go watch his video on his 3D printed buttpad and then be stupid enough to buy one and you’ll never believe a single word this faggot ever says online.
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Federal does it again 😅
- Thread starter wvfarrier
- Start date
I don't listen to any guntubers anymore. I do occasionally watch some of their videos for either personal enrichment on learning about a product's specific features (not necessarily on it's merits through their shilly lens), or just for my own entertainment of seeing how FOS they are.
I also love watching the ones about stuff I own, or have owned, and already know it's a dumpster fire, but hearing them rave about how amazing and wonderful it is... Can't help but roll your eyes knowing that THEY know how full of shit they are, and how far they're reaching to grasp for those straws.
" I was saying Boo-urns"
Man I'm looking at the latest Seekins offering thinking "I'd buy one of those if it came in an older putt-putt cartridge." I don't need a monster canyon crossing, meat pulverizing, brain scrambler.(and I don't need any more 6CM, 6.5CM, 308 rifles) I sure as hell don't want any hybrid cased over pressure rounds.
Man I'm looking at the latest Seekins offering thinking "I'd buy one of those if it came in an older putt-putt cartridge." I don't need a monster canyon crossing, meat pulverizing, brain scrambler.(and I don't need any more 6CM, 6.5CM, 308 rifles) I sure as hell don't want any hybrid cased over pressure rounds.
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Huh. he's shooting factory Hornady 7prc. which is well documented to be nowhere close to the speeds listed on the box.
That sounds like a Hornady problem... People hand loading the 7 PRC are getting excellent velocities.
Why bullshit about the alloy name, I presume if it's used in nuclear reactors it's miraging steel?
Releasing a +P for an existing cartridge would seem to make more sense market wise. Just being able to swap your 2209 (H4350) powder load to 2208 (Varget) in creedmoor or 2208 to 2206 in 308 or 7-08 would surely be a much bigger market win?
Releasing a +P for an existing cartridge would seem to make more sense market wise. Just being able to swap your 2209 (H4350) powder load to 2208 (Varget) in creedmoor or 2208 to 2206 in 308 or 7-08 would surely be a much bigger market win?
The comparison to 7mm PRC seems reasonable since it's popular that's what Federal compares it to in their ad copy, along with 280 AI and 7mm RM, but not 28 Nos.
I do appreciate the drop diagram depicting a perfect 1,000 yd ass shot on the elk, that's truth in advertising for how I reckon the 7mm Backcountry is likely to be employed.
"Held just a little daylight over it's back"...
Legitimate question, because I do not know, but can you reload this new alloy case?
Allegedly.
I think how exactly that looks is unknown to the general public at this point.
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Yeah, I have found that he is good at click-bait titles and marketing and he is essentially a salesman.
Also, I tried his Backstop recoil pad. It did not work out for me. The recoil response was inconsistent and I got a few jabs, which gave me a flinch. I spent a few weeks of dry fire to undo that and then put my Limbsaver back on and have been fine ever since.
- Mar 15, 2018
- 1,313
- 5,115
Agreed. Think about it, why is there any need to introduce any new cartridges? Unless you're refining the 'Kraut Magic' caseless round, what's the point? We have enough calibers.
I always like to see innovation, even if it's not going to go anywhere.
I'm very curious about this alloy, how can it release a bullet consistently? Will it rust? Maybe even rust in a chamber?
Personally, Im not interested in a standard long action caliber. I'm slowly getting convinced you don't need all that much power to kill an animal. Wind is a different topic but I'm not sure a long action is the answer.
I'm very curious about this alloy, how can it release a bullet consistently? Will it rust? Maybe even rust in a chamber?
Personally, Im not interested in a standard long action caliber. I'm slowly getting convinced you don't need all that much power to kill an animal. Wind is a different topic but I'm not sure a long action is the answer.
Pictures seem to indicate nickel plated cases (or something similar), which would resist corrosion and rust.
It's not ammo from the same factory though, amigo. He uses Hornady for the comparison, which has been known *specifically* for underperforming velocity in 7PRC loads.
Federal themselves say that the 7BC should only be ~200fps faster than the 7PRC with the same bullet and the same barrel length. Other people's testing with Federal ammo in both calibers confirms that and shows the BC has ~4-5" barrel length advantage over the BRC. Which is completely realistic for a 200fps faster cartridge.
10" is... lol.
The last thing I'll point out is that everything you're seeing right now is coming from channels which Federal or people making the rifles picked. Nobody that isn't connected to the marketing push has shot this thing much yet. None of the hands-on opinions are based on people that spent their own money for anything, nor has any of the ammo come from a store shelf.
That one will be argued for a while until 90 - 100 dudes shoot out their first barrel.
I'm on the side of "no free lunch". You run 80K PSI and 3,000 FPS in a tube with a long bullet for diameter, and it isn't going to last long.
I'm going to guess 750 - 1K rounds, depending on how it is run. That's in the range of slightly better than the 28 Nosler. I read a lot of 600 - 800 round experiences when I was determining what 7mm I'd go with next.
Here is one problem/issue no one is talking about.
The steel case heads don't show pressures like a normal brass case will.
So any of you playing with this (this isn't directed just at 45-90).... have any clue or had your custom loaded / wildcat ammo pressure tested to see what it's running at?
You can get into real dangerous pressures and not even know it.
Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
Some time back there was a discussion about how barrel life matters in "game guns" vs "work guns".
Most "work guns" probably see 50 rounds max to get them all sighted in.
Then from there on, when they are taken out to work, or check that they are fit for work, it's probably never more than 10 shots at a time or such.
So with say around 1k barrel life, your hunting rifle or marksman rifle will last plenty long and the small trade off is well worth it due to having a higher hit rate on your first (and usually only shot).
If your "work gun" is being used in the kind of "work" that requires huge amounts of bullets fired, then chances are either you are plenty rich enough to afford new barrels on the regular, or your stuff is paid for by the taxpayers and you don't care anyways.
Back in the day there were often competitions that were only 10 or 20 shots for the whole thing and having your first shot or essentially every shot being a cold bore shot count was really important.
Then nobody liked that and everyone went to the new style games where large amounts of rounds are fired and way more are fired up in practice.
But those people doing that are running like well the heaviest rifles with the least recoiling cartridges they can. So this round is of no interest to them.
So for a hunting gun or other similar purposes, the 1k barrel life isn't really a concern.
One of the guys doing finished test barrels (I with hold who for) had a good supply of hybrid cases. So he put a rifle together to play with. He told me last May....he didn't know how he didn't blow up the gun. He whipped up some loads...and had bullets in 270cal going 4000fps. The cases showed no pressure signs at all.
Pressure goes up... heat goes up... expect barrel life to go down. How you use the gun and how you maintain will have a big impact on barrel life.
Also as you cut the barrel shorter... pressure behind the bullet exiting the barrel go up and cause the bullet to tip more and will take longer to recover. It's been seen and there is data to back it up. Cutting the barrel just 3" shorter...took bullets/ammo that was shooting in the .7" range to shooting around 1.25". So when a guy calls complaining that the bullets don't shoot or thinks the barrel is bad etc... who's covering the warranty stuff? Asking for a friend!
Exactly. Which is why I went 7-300 PRC. 50 rounds per year means I'll get a good 10-12 years after plenty of load development and initial DOPE verification.
However, how many traditional American hunters put 750+ rounds through a rifle barrel in that barrel's entire life? Most "hunters" that I know shoot 5-10 rounds per year.
Alterra did some shooting and was getting some heavy bolt lift so I guess that would still be one sign but yes not as easy to tell as with brass. Videos is pretty good not a lot of fluff but some good data with numbers
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I’m talking about it and have a solution …..
Post in thread 'NEW- Geissele King Hunter'
https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/new-geissele-king-hunter.7243133/post-11949374
While we are bringing up “Hacks” lets not let Hornady off the hook for not changing their fps box data, after changing the recipe.
Deceptive and irresponsible. A simple sticker or even an insert inside could have mitigated that.
Probably the unpopular opinion here, but I am happy to see a major manufacturer trying something different. While it may or may not fail, they are seeing if moving away from traditional brass cases/pressures could be of benefit. Yeah, steel cases have been around forever, but that was a cost cutting measure and they were loaded to normal SAAMI pressures. A lot of people are giving them a rash of shit for doing something new(ish) but if no one was trying to innovate then we would all still be shooting 30-06's with lighter bullets and slow twist rates. Reading threads where many immediately crap all over something before even having tried it is kind of perplexing. If all companies were constantly met with this much cynicism then screw trying to move the needle to the right, just keep making the same stuff. And yes, as stated earlier, I am sure this is the unpopular opinion.
I’d rather see Federal deliver what they already should, such as primers rather than reinvent the wheel. The brick of 210M still sells for over 230$ on gunbroker so obviously there’s still a huge shortage. But no let’s do something no one asked for.
Heavy bolt lift is a problem. I know two different places running ammo at 80k (not the 7BC) they need a dead blow hammer to open the bolt at the top of the cycle....then they need to beat the bolt back to extract the round as well.
That's why this cartridge seems like a half-assed solution to me.
They dramatically increased the pressure of the cartridge, but the operating system that uses said ammo is still built around lower pressures.
Curious to see how an action like the ARC Archimedes would do with high pressure rounds, especially with their pivoting bolt leverage extraction
Don't quote me exactly but one of those action models is being used in testing. Still need a dead blow hammer to open it. Not sure which action it is exactly.
Is brass even a reliable indicator of pressure? I've heard it argued on the hornady podcast that what are normal accepted signs of pressure on brass really aren't reliable indicators.
This new chambering is only available in new rifles that are supposedly built for the increased pressure.
What some random individual may do to their existing system is on them.
We don't have a magic orb that will tell us what the supply availability of imported powders will be in the future. It's very unfortunate and definitely a lesson learned but hardly "deceptive". If we could reliably get RL-26 in sufficient quantities, it'd be in every 7 PRC round we load.
My exact thoughts.
Checking TBAC Ultra 5 pressure ratings:
16” barrel minimum length: 6.5 SAUM, 6.5 PRC, 7 WSM, 7 SAUM, 7STW, 7RM, 7 PRC, 300 WSM
18” minimum: 26 Nosler, 28 Nosler, 300 WM, 300 WBY, 6.5-300WBY
The 7mm Back Country should have lower muzzle exit pressure if it’s getting these speeds, because faster propellant has to be the underlying factor in the performance formula, using steel alloy as part of the pressure-containment system for the cartridge gasket.
So it allows everyone that’s already used to their legacy brass-cased 24-26” high velocity 7mm rifles to get the same or better performance from a 16-20” barrel, put a lightweight Titanium TBAC can on it, and still have an overall shorter suppressed mountain carbine.
I’ve had my Ultra 5 since 2017-2018, and it’s almost weightless. 5.4oz
For comparison, there’s about a 58gr to 97gr propellant mass spread from 280 AI to 7mm RUM, with a 350fps velocity spread with 162gr, 300fps spread with 175-190gr.
The 20” barrel 7mm BC is more in the class of the top five 7mm Magnums with 24-26” barrels, all of them using 20-30gr more powder and much larger case heads. This will appeal to any current and future hunters who feel that performance is desired, but can now do it from 4-6” less barrel length and more magazine capacity, suppressed.
7mm Back Country 20” barrel
170gr 3000fps
175gr Fusion 2975fps
195gr Berger Elite 2850fps
___________________________________________
280 Ackley Improved 24” barrel
162gr ELD-X 2900-2950fps
175-180gr 2700-2800fps
190gr 2650-2700fps
7mm SAUM 24"
162gr 2800-2900fps
175-180gr 2700-2800fps
7mm Rem Mag 24"
162gr 2900-3000fps
175-180gr 2850-2900fps
190gr 2750-2800fps
7mm WSM 24"
162gr 3050-3100fps
175-180gr 2800-2900fps
7mm PRC 24"
175gr 2950-3000fps
180gr 2900-2950fps
190gr 2800-2900fps
7mm Weatherby Magnum 26"
162gr 3100-3200fps
175-180gr 3000-3100fps
28 Nosler 26”
162gr 3250-3300fps
175-180gr 3050-3150fps
190gr 2900-3000fps
7mm STW 26"
162gr 3100-3200fps
175-180gr 3000-3100fps
190gr 2900-3000fps
7mm RUM 26"
162gr 3200-3300fps
175-180gr 3000-3100fps
190gr 2900-3000fps
Brass is on a sliding scale for cold work. Cold work determines the hardness and strength of the head. There is also quite a bit of variation in internal shape on various sizes/mfgs. of cases so there's a bit of change in the stress/strain profile based on that, too...
Having said that, case head ejector swipes or ejector slot imprints almost necessarily mean you're over 70-74ksi. Flattened primers can be artificially created with excessive headspace at very low pressure, but they're on a sliding scale where they start looking bad in the upper 60's to 80's (in a properly built rifle). Primer cratering is heavily influenced by FP/bolt fit, powder burn rate, powder/bullet combo etc... So it's more of a relative thing, not an outright indication. Extractor slot/web expansion is another one that guarantees over 70ksi.
What I generally tell people is that if you see any form of flattened primer or especially ejector swipe/indent you can almost bet you're well over the recommended pressure limit for that cartridge.
No experience here with steel cases and my only experience with high pressure testing is on accident or testing Snipers Hide load data.
You don’t want an 80ksi factory load going into actions that can’t handle it, but I do think there is a ton of potential for short action cartridges with steel heads, as 45-90 has demonstrated with re-sized 6.8x51 cases.
The US military uses the hybrid cases in machineguns and soldiers weapons are full auto capable.
With say 308 vs 6.8 X51 high pressure loads the barrel life would likely be shorter, especially in full auto combat mode.
When the smaller steel high pressure case vs the brass larger volume
magnum comparison is made the extra powder used in the magnum case for longer burn vs the high pressure short burn probably have about equal results.
The new steel cased ammo with high velocity in short barrels, with light rifles would be an excellent choice for hunting, plus 2 extra rds in the magazine if needed.
I chamber my own rifles so barrel wear is never an issue. Just the cost of a premium barrel blank.
Sig 6.8X 51 reload with regular dies of every make on the market.
Turns your 6.5 CM into a 6.5 magnum, as I have been using them since they first came out for 308 win. And you can adjust to the power needed.
Getting optimum powders per case volume, limits powder choice, but velocity improvements can be made with any powder.
Need a guide like QL to help with the pressure input.
Case pressure signs ...1st pic the one on the left past way 80,000 psi limit no markings on the case primer begins to extrude into firing pin hole more pronounced than the 80,000 psi case on the right...or the bolt lift will become stiff. Stop...
The pic on the right all cases were fired at 65,000 to 67,000 psi no pressure signs, which are magnum plus pressure for normal brass.
Primers are not flattened or case heads marked with ejectors or extractors, rims bent or torn, but primer extrusion and bolt lift, are pressure signs.
So ya have to learn a few new things...but turn standard cases into magnums, or somewhere in between.
And always lube your hybrid cases well, with spray lube or other, you won't like the results if ya don't. As a lathe ot mill is likely need to get the case out of the die.
The future is here time for change...light rifles, short barrels, magnum velocities with standard bolt faces, higher magazine count...all in factory rifles.
Attachments
Don’t piss down my back and tell me it is raining!
The fact that you would make such a ridiculous statement, publicly, says volumes Hornady.
Changing your formula didn’t just happen like a car crash. And you are not the first company that has had to mitigate a situation where the product changed and you had a bunch of boxes around that you needed to slap a sticker on or put an insert in to explain.
To my knowledge, Hornady never even made a statement about this until multiple YouTube videos complained about it. Then the forums picked it up.
Meanwhile companies like Seekins were getting calls from people like me saying “Hey why is this barrel so slow”??? I’m still explaining this on social media and Seekins’s own Facebook group to people complaining about the velocity they’re not getting.
Listen, I’m a business person. I sell stuff for a living and shit happens, OWN IT! But to sell a product with improper labeling, to me, that is deceptive and I’m sorry if you find that a harsh word but the other word I use is “illegal” and I stop short of using that.
You’re probably damn lucky. Your demographic is not a sue happy demographic or there would be a class action.
By the way, I’ve talked to your people over there many times and I buy a lot of your products. Until recently, I was one of your biggest fans. I have been exceedingly grateful for the new cartridges that you brought to the market and been a big supporter of them.
A simple statement to the effect of:
“Hey we didn’t handle that the best that we could have in hindsight and we’ve made a commitment to learn from that and do better next time”
Would assuage a lot of people, including me.
“ magic orb” my ass…..
If true, this is an EPIC failure.
An ammo manf. comes out with a new round, but firearms companies will need to develop new actions that it can work in??
Yeah, I don’t see how that would be a bad idea at all.
Appreciate the info. Was hoping for something more definitive even if it’s anecdotal. Say 1000 rounds compared to 1500 or something similar you’ve observed.
The next question will be how many weak lightweight suppressors will a 16in 7BC yeet into the wilderness ? Who wants to be the first one to try ?
