6gt

#2,201
Niles Coyote said:
The lube you use, the amount and consistency of application play a large role in this in my experience.
Click to expand...

^ Mine as well.

@climbing1 If using a full-length die, try lubing just the case body next time and not the shoulder or neck. Some might not agree, but I've made some pretty consistent stuff over the years doing this and have had no issues. Obviously if you are using a bushing die, you might want to do the neck too. The biggest thing during the experiment is to stay off the shoulder.

Just try a couple pieces at first and see if the consistency gets closer...if it does...then lube application was the culprit.
 
#2,202
climbing1 said:
If it's possible the first firing doesn't fully fireform due to some random lower charges from ladders, maybe it's giving me a false sense reading because the case never fully maxed out in the chamber? Meaning, it never grew to maximum length to be bumped .003. So in theory, I'm resizing the case, but it was never long enough to bump. Is this possible?
Click to expand...

^ this

The lube situation applies as well, as covered by others... but the brass doesn't fully fireform to the chamber for a few (2-3) firings unless you're running just stupid hot loads.
 
#2,203
Niles Coyote said:
The lube you use, the amount and consistency of application play a large role in this in my experience.
**After re-reading your post**
If you are shooting new brass and at different charge weights you will see differences in the shoulder as pressure increases. In that case I would take measurements off the higher charge weights and because they were once fired, I'd bump those one to two thou and check them in the chamber. After you get a second firing on them check them again. Just be aware that if you are running a lower pressure load you may have to go through this cycle a few times. Another trick you can try is to intentionally not size one completely for shoulder bump and do a chamber check with that piece, if it doesn't fit, keep bumping it back tell it does while taking measurements. Once it chambers write that down and subtract your 3 or so thou from it.
Click to expand...
memilanuk said:
^ this

The lube situation applies as well, as covered by others... but the brass doesn't fully fireform to the chamber for a few (2-3) firings unless you're running just stupid hot loads.
Click to expand...
Ok, this makes the most sense to me. It could be the lube since I'm using One Shot (even though I try to be consistent, probably not very since I'm spraying with a can), but could also be that it's not fully fireformed since I'm only 1F in. The node I found is on the higher side (33 N140 @2910), so the differences between the lighter loads working up to this might be the discrepancy; some of the cases haven't fully extended yet, yielding a false reading of a greater bump. Basically it didn't bump at all is my guess.

@Niles Coyote I like the idea of just letting the chamber tell you the story. These are FL dies with bushing.

Will the change in fully FF brass, bumped impact the node I found on virgin brass or is it generally the same? I've been reloading a minute, but haven't got into the weeds as most of you here, I'm sure. 6gt is new for me.

Thanks for the replies, all!
 
#2,204
climbing1 said:
Ok, this makes the most sense to me. It could be the lube since I'm using One Shot (even though I try to be consistent, probably not very since I'm spraying with a can), but could also be that it's not fully fireformed since I'm only 1F in. The node I found is on the higher side (33 N140 @2910), so the differences between the lighter loads working up to this might be the discrepancy; some of the cases haven't fully extended yet, yielding a false reading of a greater bump. Basically it didn't bump at all is my guess.

@Niles Coyote I like the idea of just letting the chamber tell you the story. These are FL dies with bushing.

Will the change in fully FF brass, bumped impact the node I found on virgin brass or is it generally the same? I've been reloading a minute, but haven't got into the weeds as most of you here, I'm sure. 6gt is new for me.

Thanks for the replies, all!
Click to expand...

My charge weights and accuracy loads on virgin brass and charge weights in brass that has been fired 5+ times have always been within .05% (.1-.2gr) for anything up to magnums.

Frequently my load data transfers directly over from virgin brass. That was the case with my 6gt...and last two 6.5x47s as well. On round 50-55 they hammered just as well as they did on round 550-555. The only change I got was speed and DOPE.
 
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#2,206
diggler1833 said:
My charge weights and accuracy loads on virgin brass and charge weights in brass that has been fired 5+ times have always been within .05% (.1-.2gr) for anything up to magnums.

Frequently my load data transfers directly over from virgin brass. That was the case with my 6gt...and last two 6.5x47s as well. On round 50-55 they hammered just as well as they did on round 550-555. The only change I got was speed and DOPE.
Click to expand...
Niles Coyote said:
My experience with the GT mirrors diggler1833's post above.
Click to expand...
That's encouraging. Was thinking I may have to start over.

I'm gonna do the chamber trick since the actual chamber is gospel and sneak up on that bump. Outside of some erosion, which I don't know how much realistically that would change in terms of thou, should be good-to-go to set and forget, regardless where the cycle of brass is, correct? I've got about 380 rounds on this barrel, so I'll try and keep some notes to see how much, if any, it'll move over time.
 
#2,207
climbing1 said:
That's encouraging. Was thinking I may have to start over.

I'm gonna do the chamber trick since the actual chamber is gospel and sneak up on that bump. Outside of some erosion, which I don't know how much realistically that would change in terms of thou, should be good-to-go to set and forget, regardless where the cycle of brass is, correct? I've got about 380 rounds on this barrel, so I'll try and keep some notes to see how much, if any, it'll move over time.
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand. By erosion - you should never see anything change in the chamber dimension of your barrel outside of the part where the rifling starts (leade into the lands)...and eventually the beginning of the rifling when that barrel gets a lot of rounds on it.

So if you mean shoulder erosion - that isn't going to happen. If you get your dies set to bump the shoulder of the brass at the datum point, say .002 back from fired, then you should be able to set and forget like you are asking (but ALWAYS double-check that first piece of brass that you resize). You will eventually see the length of the neck increase over time, but at .002 shoulder bump I'm seeing only about the same amount of growth in the case neck.

Here's a pretty decent article on the chamber for reference. If I misunderstood you, my apologies.

An Introduction to Rifle Chambers

An introduction to match rifle chambers and the features that matter.
bisonballistics.com bisonballistics.com
 
#2,209
I use homemade Lanolin/IPA lube where I put ~4 sprays into a 1 gallon ziplock bag with 100 cases and then work the cases around for a minute or so (not too dissimilar to spraying One Shot)… and I’ve found that just like with One Shot, waiting ~5 minutes or so for the carrier to flash off before sizing them is pretty important/crucial to the shoulder bump coming out consistent.

If you size while the cases are still too wet the bump will get a little wonky.
 
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#2,210
CK1.0 said:
I use homemade Lanolin/IPA lube where I put ~4 sprays into a 1 gallon ziplock bag with 100 cases and then work the cases around for a minute or so (not too dissimilar to spraying One Shot)… and I’ve found that just like with One Shot, waiting ~5 minutes or so for the carrier to flash off before sizing them is pretty important/crucial to the shoulder bump coming out consistent.

If you size while the cases are still too wet the bump will get a little wonky.
Click to expand...
Useful to know could explain a few things I've experienced recently.
 
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#2,211
diggler1833 said:
Not sure I understand. By erosion - you should never see anything change in the chamber dimension of your barrel outside of the part where the rifling starts (leade into the lands)...and eventually the beginning of the rifling when that barrel gets a lot of rounds on it.

So if you mean shoulder erosion - that isn't going to happen. If you get your dies set to bump the shoulder of the brass at the datum point, say .002 back from fired, then you should be able to set and forget like you are asking (but ALWAYS double-check that first piece of brass that you resize). You will eventually see the length of the neck increase over time, but at .002 shoulder bump I'm seeing only about the same amount of growth in the case neck.

Here's a pretty decent article on the chamber for reference. If I misunderstood you, my apologies.

An Introduction to Rifle Chambers

An introduction to match rifle chambers and the features that matter.
bisonballistics.com bisonballistics.com
Click to expand...
Ah, thanks for the clarity. I misspoke and am tracking. I am guilty of not letting the brass lube properly flash off, and that might be part of the variance as well. Appreciate the help, Diggler!
 
#2,212
Gogga said:
Useful to know could explain a few things I've experienced recently.
Click to expand...
I use the Hornady spray too. I spray brass in a Tupperware container and mix the brass by hand to help spread it evenly. (let it sit for a few min before running) I wipe the neck and shoulder area before running it in die to keep from getting any hydraulic denting. I have been doing it this way for years without any issues.
 
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#2,213
climbing1 said:
Will the change in fully FF brass, bumped impact the node I found on virgin brass or is it generally the same?
Click to expand...

Usually it's pretty close. I've had some specific situations where a 'max' load worked up with virgin brass needed to be backed off in order to not be over-pressure in sized brass. Basically some of the energy is being used to fully fire form that virgin case, and on subsequent loadings that extra energy can manifest as sticky bolt lift, clickers, etc. Or no pressure signs, just running a little faster than expected. It's not something to get *too* worried about; just don't be surprised if you need to back off the 'magic load' you worked up with virgin brass ;)
 
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#2,214
John Glidewell said:
I use the Hornady spray too. I spray brass in a Tupperware container and mix the brass by hand to help spread it evenly. (let it sit for a few min before running) I wipe the neck and shoulder area before running it in die to keep from getting any hydraulic denting. I have been doing it this way for years without any issues.
Click to expand...
Same for me, but I use an aluminum turkey tray and do 200pcs or so. Spray, rattle around for a bit, second spray then let the lube dry for a few minutes before sizing.
 
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#2,216
One Shot or lanolin/IPA mix spray lube + Tubberware, turkey tray, copy/printer paper box lid, or ziplock are all acceptable lol, that's the way to go.

Reloading is already tedious enough... guys who lube each case one at a time and then wipe each one of them off one at a time are nuts. 😝
 
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#2,217
Posting here since I've only had the issue with 6mm/6GT reloading.

I shot about four matches last year with 6gt and then shot the GAP Grind last summer. Found i had about 120 rounds that I could not chamber. Thanks to a squad mate I found the top of the neck/mouth was flared out. So much you could catch your fingernail on it. So unless your chamber is sloppy AF...that round isn't going in.

I've been diligent about case prep after that. Bought a giraud trimmer to help. But even first match this month I had about 10 cases with the issue. I know for a fact they wee fine before seating the bullet; 109 Bergers.

Loading some 115 dtacs to try and test today but probably won't because I'm seeing it already.

I've loaded ammo for about 12 years now. Never had any issues. But this has me stumped why this is happening.

I'm using a L Wilson chamber seater.
 
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#2,218
@farrar86 - Are you tumbling your cases? Wet or dry, if so? Did you trim this batch of cases and make sure you've chamfered and deburred correctly? Do you have a micrometer you can measure the case mouth on some rounds? Does it happen to all/most or just a few, relatively speaking?

It sounds like a case where either youve' got a significant burr/peening inside the neck, and it's not getting cleaned up before you seat a bullet - and therefore gets "pushed" to the outside of the case mouth.

If it's not that... could be other things. I don't have experience w/ Wilson chamber seat dies - can they be cleaned? You might have some piece of gunk/grit/junk in there that's somehow pushing on the case mouth just right
 
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#2,219
farrar86 said:
Posting here since I've only had the issue with 6mm/6GT reloading.

I shot about four matches last year with 6gt and then shot the GAP Grind last summer. Found i had about 120 rounds that I could not chamber. Thanks to a squad mate I found the top of the neck/mouth was flared out. So much you could catch your fingernail on it. So unless your chamber is sloppy AF...that round isn't going in.

I've been diligent about case prep after that. Bought a giraud trimmer to help. But even first match this month I had about 10 cases with the issue. I know for a fact they wee fine before seating the bullet; 109 Bergers.

Loading some 115 dtacs to try and test today but probably won't because I'm seeing it already.

I've loaded ammo for about 12 years now. Never had any issues. But this has me stumped why this is happening.

I'm using a L Wilson chamber seater.
Click to expand...

Can you detail your sizing process?

I had the flare once with a F/L sizing die, and once with a bushing die that was sizing the neck too much. Running a .002 mandrel through the case as a last step eliminated the bell.
 
#2,220
davere said:
@farrar86 - Are you tumbling your cases? Wet or dry, if so? Did you trim this batch of cases and make sure you've chamfered and deburred correctly? Do you have a micrometer you can measure the case mouth on some rounds? Does it happen to all/most or just a few, relatively speaking?

It sounds like a case where either youve' got a significant burr/peening inside the neck, and it's not getting cleaned up before you seat a bullet - and therefore gets "pushed" to the outside of the case mouth.

If it's not that... could be other things. I don't have experience w/ Wilson chamber seat dies - can they be cleaned? You might have some piece of gunk/grit/junk in there that's somehow pushing on the case mouth just right
Click to expand...
I deprime, wet tumble for about 45 minutes with ss media and water. Then pull out, dry over night, anneal, then fl size with bushing for neck tension. After all that and last step before I put them in my ready to load ben is to put each one through the trimmer. I'll try and get some photos of what they look lol before. And it's not all cases but enough to have me worried.

I checked the chamber die after that post above. Nothing stuck out that I could see literally or figuratively. Even ran a 6mm chamber brush through just in case.
 
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#2,221
farrar86 said:
I deprime, wet tumble for about 45 minutes with ss media and water. Then pull out, dry over night, anneal, then fl size with bushing for neck tension. After all that and last step before I put them in my ready to load ben is to put each one through the trimmer. I'll try and get some photos of what they look lol before. And it's not all cases but enough to have me worried.

I checked the chamber die after that post above. Nothing stuck out that I could see literally or figuratively. Even ran a 6mm chamber brush through just in case.
Click to expand...

Bunch of different ways to make accurate ammo, and I certainly don't know most of them. I'd been loading for 30 years, and learned last year that if you anneal as your first step...that your 'neck tension' will be a lot more uniform. I noticed it after reading a little on it and watching a video. Figured I'd give it a try. As I mandrel the last step, I previously frequently noticed that some cases slid over the mandrel more easily than others. After switching my process to where I anneal before anything else, that tension over the mandrel is a lot more consistent.
 
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#2,222
I don’t wet tumble personally - but I’ve seen that exact symptom from a buddy who wet tumbled - to the point that he had to go buy a drill and file to file down the corners of his case mouths at a match. Making sure he fully deburred and chamfered his cases fixed it - the problem is, the stainless pins will peen the case mouths
 
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#2,223
davere said:
I don’t wet tumble personally - but I’ve seen that exact symptom from a buddy who wet tumbled - to the point that he had to go buy a drill and file to file down the corners of his case mouths at a match. Making sure he fully deburred and chamfered his cases fixed it - the problem is, the stainless pins will peen the case mouths
Click to expand...
I was doing that in my hotel room down in Tennessee after day 1 freaking out that all my ammo was junk for day two.

I've never had issues wet tumbling with ss media personally. But not brushing the possibility to the side. I've been taking a lyman chanfer tool to the outside but it doesn't seem to make a difference.
 
#2,224
IMO wet-tumbling is for blaster ammo only (like 9mm or range-pickup-brass-loaded 5.56).

Wet-tumbling is fairly violent on the cases (as far as having them crashing into each other), and it will eventually cause peening/belling of case mouths and bite you in the ass. Most guys can probably cut their SDs in half just by not doing it anymore.

An outside chamfer won't fix it if it's gotten bad. You can fix the belled cases with a 6mm Lee collet die and a washer or two slipped over the case and used as a spacer/standoff in between the die and the shell holder... the die won't touch the shoulder of the cases or size the cases or anything, but it will allow you to squash the case mouth/neck back into shape against its built-in mandrel. Luckily brass is soft, after a firing they'll be back to normal...
 
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#2,225
CK1.0 said:
IMO wet-tumbling is for blaster ammo only (like 9mm or range-pickup-brass-loaded 5.56).

Wet-tumbling is fairly violent on the cases (as far as having them crashing into each other), and it will eventually cause peening/belling of case mouths and bite you in the ass. Most guys can probably cut their SDs in half just by not doing it anymore.

An outside chamfer won't fix it if it's gotten bad. You can fix the belled cases with a 6mm Lee collet die and a washer or two slipped over the case and used as a spacer/standoff in between the die and the shell holder... the die won't touch the shoulder of the cases or size the cases or anything, but it will allow you to squash the case mouth/neck back into shape against its built-in mandrel. Luckily brass is soft, after a firing they'll be back to normal...
Click to expand...
Mind posting a picture? Im not able to invasion that.
 
#2,227
CK1.0 said:
IMO wet-tumbling is for blaster ammo only (like 9mm or range-pickup-brass-loaded 5.56).

Wet-tumbling is fairly violent on the cases (as far as having them crashing into each other), and it will eventually cause peening/belling of case mouths and bite you in the ass. Most guys can probably cut their SDs in half just by not doing it anymore.

An outside chamfer won't fix it if it's gotten bad. You can fix the belled cases with a 6mm Lee collet die and a washer or two slipped over the case and used as a spacer/standoff in between the die and the shell holder... the die won't touch the shoulder of the cases or size the cases or anything, but it will allow you to squash the case mouth/neck back into shape against its built-in mandrel. Luckily brass is soft, after a firing they'll be back to normal...
Click to expand...

Yep. A taper crimp too.
 
#2,230
farrar86 said:
I've never had issues wet tumbling with ss media personally. But not brushing the possibility to the side. I've been taking a lyman chanfer tool to the outside but it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Click to expand...

Half the problem is *inside* - the peening effectively rounds an edge inside and and out. If you're not chamfering the inside of the neck, too, you're only getting half of it. When you seat a bullet, it pushes that peened edged outward, and you get what you're seeing. If the cutter on your Giraud is adjusted correctly, it should do both operations for you (chamfer inside, deburr outside) - the only issue there is that it's difficult to adjust the Giraud to only do those things and not shorten the case at the same time (GT cases don't grow very fast), but it can be done - the Whidden click adjustable die rings help a bit, with that.
 
#2,231
John Glidewell said:
Bullshit!!!! Been wet tumbling with steel pins for years without issue. 223 rem, 6.5 creed, 6 creed, three 6 gts, 22 gt, 25 gt, 7/300 prc, 6.5 prc, 338 edge, 338 lm. Never an issue.
Click to expand...

You may not be seeing it - and if so, good for you. You only have to Google "wet tumble peening case mouths" to find threads here and on a number of other forums. In my friend's case, he stopped wet tumbling, and the problem stopped immediately. The only thing he changed was tumble method. Might have something to do with size of the pins, or time he was tumbling, or the tumbler in use, etc. Even dry tumbling can peen the cases mouths, but it takes a lot longer - wet tumbling involves the cases falling on one another, typically, where they just bump into one another in dry media.
 
#2,233
Still messing around with RL 15.5. Shot a 1.512” group at 300 the other day so decided to see what it would show at 400yds. Paper don’t lie.

27” 1-8t
RL15.5 @ 34.5g
Berger 108’s
12-13mph wind
 

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#2,234
John Glidewell said:
Bullshit!!!! Been wet tumbling with steel pins for years without issue. 223 rem, 6.5 creed, 6 creed, three 6 gts, 22 gt, 25 gt, 7/300 prc, 6.5 prc, 338 edge, 338 lm. Never an issue.
Click to expand...

Yep...peening some for sure. Belling a case mouth afterwards in a die like previously stated...um, no, not in my experience...but that doesn't mean its impossible. Issues? No to that either. You'd have to leave that stuff in a tumbler with pins for a long time to create a situation where this is possible.

My biggest gripe with wet tumbling is the time and anxiety of mine that I'm going to send a pin down my barrel at dome point.

I still do it, mostly for pistol now though.
 
#2,235
My .308 cases all flare like that after going through an RCBS FL sizer while doing .002 shoulder bump. Just as previously said, the next pass with a mandrel removes the bell. Id guess it just depends on how the die is built?
 
#2,236
Wolf762x51 said:
My .308 cases all flare like that after going through an RCBS FL sizer while doing .002 shoulder bump. Just as previously said, the next pass with a mandrel removes the bell. Id guess it just depends on how the die is built?
Click to expand...
I'm trying a different die, whidden. I did think maybe the top of the mouth was touching the retaining nut for the decapping pen. It holds the bushing in. I backed the top out about half a turn so there's a little play in the bushing and nut. Giving that a try with a few cases but I can't tell if it's working or something else is causing it.
 
#2,238
hairy_pineapple588 said:
So with Hodgdon price increases again. Who is shooting Vihtavuori and what powder/charge?
Click to expand...

I had great luck with N150 in the 6GT. N140 should be a viable option too.

I thought I posted my N150 results about a year ago here, and I have a new phone now. I'll try to find the old target with load data.

***EDITED TO ADD***

Found the N150 load, guess I posted it in here already about 10 pages ago.

-105gr Berger Hybrid
-Virgin Alpha brass
-Fed 205MAR primer
-1.947 CBTO
*5 shot groups below.

20240509_132433.jpg
 
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#2,242
Gotta love the 6GT, seems no matter the powder or bullets it always shoots good. Had a new barrel spun up and even though my previous barrel still has quite a bit of life in it I went ahead and put the new barrel on. Due to unforeseen things I still had 126 rounds loaded up that I used in the last barrel. Went to the range just to burn up the ammo and get the new barrel ready to go. Shot 65 rounds that day with the last 15 being the pic below.

Proof Comp contour @ 28”
Alpha brass
CCI 450
H4350 35.2
115 DTACS
Manson reamer .120 freebore then throated out to .185 freebore.
IMG_8384.jpeg

IMG_8372.jpeg
 
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#2,243
IMG_8370.jpeg
Here’s the first 50, shot left to right top of red line. Then left to right below red line. Shot 5 per then loaded mag shot another 5 and let the barrel cool while plinking with my AR. Took this pic before really concentrating for the last three groups. This will be my third barrel shooting the DTACS.
 
#2,244
@drglock what kind of speed are you getting with that load and what length to ogive are you seating? Im running 34.2 of H4350 with alpha and 115s. Getting 2760-2780 depending on outside temp. Would like to get up into the 2800 range.
 
#2,245
farrar86 said:
@drglock what kind of speed are you getting with that load and what length to ogive are you seating? Im running 34.2 of H4350 with alpha and 115s. Getting 2760-2780 depending on outside temp. Would like to get up into the 2800 range.
Click to expand...
Depending on barrel and lot of powder I’ve run them 2770-2815(seems to be the sweet spot , at least for me). This load in my last barrel which was a 26” was right at 2825ish. I’m at 2.006 BTO measuring with my stuff. On the last barrel going off an unfired barrel I was right at .060 jump. These same bullets in my new barrel are .068 jump. The new barrel will have a new lot of powder and bullets but I imagine I’ll be in the same ball park as the last one. Disclaimer though my last barrel was 35.8 at 2812 but the barrel sped up quite a bit and I think it was because I was at the bottom of my 8lb jug and was getting a lot of fine powder dust in my loads. The last two matches I shot I had to drop the charge down to 35.2 and was still a tad faster(2825fps). Now out of the new barrel it’s all over on velocity just because it’s a fresh barrel. Shot the last 61 rounds the other day and it averaged 2750 so I’m thinking I’m getting close to my barrel leveling off.

Last 40 rounds of my old load in my new barrel at 500 yards.
IMG_8386.jpeg
 
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#2,246
farrar86 said:
@drglock what kind of speed are you getting with that load and what length to ogive are you seating? Im running 34.2 of H4350 with alpha and 115s. Getting 2760-2780 depending on outside temp. Would like to get up into the 2800 range.
Click to expand...
But unless your running a custom reamer or doing like we are and throating it out to .180-.190 freebore you might not be able to shoot the same BTO length.

This pic should give you an idea where we’re at on the neck shoulder junction at .060-.070 jump with a 185ish freebore.
IMG_8449.jpeg
 
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#2,248
Speed question for you guys…my charge of 35.5 H4350 has historically gotten me hovering around 2900 fps. The last two range trips however, one being a match, it’s sped up to 2960 with the same powder and load. SD’s have surprisingly improved with the last trip being a 4.2 SD. Speed could be a result of a carbon ring…but if it’s not, is there any reason not to run it that fast?
 
#2,249
BoulderE89 said:
Speed question for you guys…my charge of 35.5 H4350 has historically gotten me hovering around 2900 fps. The last two range trips however, one being a match, it’s sped up to 2960 with the same powder and load. SD’s have surprisingly improved with the last trip being a 4.2 SD. Speed could be a result of a carbon ring…but if it’s not, is there any reason not to run it that fast?
Click to expand...
Need to include bullet specs-

If it’s a 105 or 109 send it. I’d back it down if it’s a DTAC
 
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