.22 br

#301
I lubed it up inside and out with Imperial Sizing Wax, pulled the expander ball, and still had issues.
The problem is, when you have to use the amount of force I was using on a Rock Chucker to size cases (into the die, and then pushing back over the expander ball as a separate step), something's wrong.
IIRC, my cheap RCBS .223 dies only size .005" under the final diameter before going back over the expander ball. The Redding .22BR die was sizing .018". I fail to see where that's good for buck-a-piece Lapua cases. I've got a dozen sets of el cheapo Lee dies and even they're better than that.

I don't mean to hate on Redding. I've got some of their other stuff, and it's great, but the .22BR FL die is an abortion and better alternatives abound.
 
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#302
Potsy said:
I lubed it up inside and out with Imperial Sizing Wax, pulled the expander ball, and still had issues.
The problem is, when you have to use the amount of force I was using on a Rock Chucker to size cases (into the die, and then pushing back over the expander ball as a separate step), something's wrong.
IIRC, my cheap RCBS .223 dies only size .005" under the final diameter before going back over the expander ball. The Redding .22BR die was sizing .018". I fail to see where that's good for buck-a-piece Lapua cases. I've got a dozen sets of el cheapo Lee dies and even they're better than that.

I don't mean to hate on Redding. I've got some of their other stuff, and it's great, but the .22BR FL die is an abortion and better alternatives abound.
Click to expand...
I see, yeah i also use a rock chucker and was using imperial wax on my first 100 brass. The one shot lube seemed to make things run ok for me. Just sharong in case anyone else wanted to try it before spending more money on a new die. I do use the bushing die after the first firing and beyond.
 
#304
Birddog6424 said:
You don't have to neck turn or turn the shoulder.

Size it down and shoot it. Its been covered previously in this thread.
Click to expand...
Does your reamer have a certain spec neck diameter for no turn cases? From a lot the reading I've done on a few other boards sounds like they were all having to turn. This was some time ago though.
 
#305
Sizing 6mm BR to 22 BR.
We use a Forster 22 BR Full length die that we had re-polished to .007 larger. Lube new case with imperial, into die. Load
Then go to the bushing die after formed.
I use a .255 Nk
 
#306
Birddog6424 said:
There's always been a lot of variants of this case out there. So getting in on this round for precision rifle (not a varminter) early like I did meant a lot of trial and error.

I started with a rental reamer my gunsmith grabbed. Completely unusable. Had to educate myself on all the variants. Then grabbed a Norma/Lapua reamer from Manson. It had a .252 neck and .050 freebore. That definitely needed to be neck turned. So I bought a neck reamer that opened it up to .2545, which works excellent. And also picked up a throater and experimented with a bunch of different freebores.

I just ordered a reamer from Manson with a .255 neck and .130 freebore. I'll be using that reamer for everything going forward.
Click to expand...
You've def done you're homework. 130fb is bout perfect for 85.5-95gr match bullets?
 
#307
Birddog6424 said:
Yes, I've found it to be pretty much the perfect fit. I've ran .050, .100, and .180. My most recent barrel is running .130 freebore and I'm jumping Berger 85.5 Hybrids .050. The bullet is well out into the neck above the juncture, I'm running faster than any previous barrel and pressure is excellent. SD has been <5 for the first 500 rounds. Its absolutely stacking my shots all the way out. My money is on I'll be able to run this load and seating depth for the life of the barrel.. I'm going to stick with this going forward.

Here's my thoughts on bullet selection.

The 85.5 Hybrid is money. Its just that simple. That bullet flat out shoots in this round.

The 88 ELDM is also a very good choice. They are inexpensive and shoot very well. They give up a slight amount of BC to the Berger, and they aren't quite on the same level of performance. I've ran about 5000 or 6000 of these through the 22BR, and I do like them. Inside 900 yards they perform as well as anything out there. But if the BR were my primary competitive rifle, I would run the Bergers.

The 95gr SMK is attractive with that high BC, but I couldn't get the velocity I wanted to run it. I saw a few guys post up that they were able to run them over 2900fps, which is the minimum I would want to be at. But I hit heavy pressure at 2900. And honestly, even at that speed, I'm not sure I would take it over the Hybrids I'm running at 3030fps. So the SMK is going to have to be individual trial and error. It didn't work for me. And ideally it would need more like .150" to .170" freebore. You can get away with less, but I think to seat the bullet in the best spot, more is better.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the thorough info!
 
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#308
Birddog6424 said:
Yes, I've found it to be pretty much the perfect fit. I've ran .050, .100, and .180. My most recent barrel is running .130 freebore and I'm jumping Berger 85.5 Hybrids .050. The bullet is well out into the neck above the juncture, I'm running faster than any previous barrel and pressure is excellent. SD has been <5 for the first 500 rounds. Its absolutely stacking my shots all the way out. My money is on I'll be able to run this load and seating depth for the life of the barrel.. I'm going to stick with this going forward.

Here's my thoughts on bullet selection.

The 85.5 Hybrid is money. Its just that simple. That bullet flat out shoots in this round.

The 88 ELDM is also a very good choice. They are inexpensive and shoot very well. They give up a slight amount of BC to the Berger, and they aren't quite on the same level of performance. I've ran about 5000 or 6000 of these through the 22BR, and I do like them. Inside 900 yards they perform as well as anything out there. But if the BR were my primary competitive rifle, I would run the Bergers.

The 95gr SMK is attractive with that high BC, but I couldn't get the velocity I wanted to run it. I saw a few guys post up that they were able to run them over 2900fps, which is the minimum I would want to be at. But I hit heavy pressure at 2900. And honestly, even at that speed, I'm not sure I would take it over the Hybrids I'm running at 3030fps. So the SMK is going to have to be individual trial and error. It didn't work for me. And ideally it would need more like .150" to .170" freebore. You can get away with less, but I think to seat the bullet in the best spot, more is better.
Click to expand...
The smith doesn't have a 22cal throater, fortunately I do. So it's getting cut with a 255nk 22br reamer with 50k freebore. It's gonna be finished at 27" hawkhill 7tw 219 bore. Going on an origin. Hoping with regular accurate aics mags and the CFR on the origin I won't need mag kits, we'll see! My friend runs 6br in those same mags w/o kit in a deviant w/o any problems.
 
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#310
So my barrel is shipping, brass and bullets. I just need get some dies. Forster micrometer seater, and as far as sizing dies: I can borrow my friends 6br bushing die to step the necks down. I was thinking about getting a forster FL die honed to 249 as loaded necks will be around 251 w/o turning I believe. This sound like it'll work? I have turning and expanding mandrels which leave 2.5 and 1.5k nk tension. The forster expander ball will leave 2k nk tension.
 
#311
shootist406 said:
So my barrel is shipping, brass and bullets. I just need get some dies. Forster micrometer seater, and as far as sizing dies: I can borrow my friends 6br bushing die to step the necks down. I was thinking about getting a forster FL die honed to 249 as loaded necks will be around 251 w/o turning I believe. This sound like it'll work? I have turning and expanding mandrels which leave 2.5 and 1.5k nk tension. The forster expander ball will leave 2k nk tension.
Click to expand...
Speaking from experience Forster will only hone out to .245 but thats not really oversizing too much and it's better than most other alternative non bushing FLS dies.
 
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#312
Birddog6424 said:
There's always been a lot of variants of this case out there. So getting in on this round for precision rifle (not a varminter) early like I did meant a lot of trial and error.

I started with a rental reamer my gunsmith grabbed. Completely unusable. Had to educate myself on all the variants. Then grabbed a Norma/Lapua reamer from Manson. It had a .252 neck and .050 freebore. That definitely needed to be neck turned. So I bought a neck reamer that opened it up to .2545, which works excellent. And also picked up a throater and experimented with a bunch of different freebores.

I just ordered a reamer from Manson with a .255 neck and .130 freebore. I'll be using that reamer for everything going forward.
Click to expand...

Im just about to start a side by side comparison 220TB shooting 90smk @ 3000 to a 22BR shooting 90smk @ 3000.

I was just about to order a reamer from Manson myself with longer freebore because my smith's 22BR reamer is also in the .050 range and I want something over .100 freebore. Looking for the 90smk and 95smk to have the bearing surface right at the neck/shoulder junction.

Do you have a print for this new manson reamer you can post or PM me??
 
#313
padom said:
Im just about to start a side by side comparison 220TB shooting 90smk @ 3000 to a 22BR shooting 90smk @ 3000.

I was just about to order a reamer from Manson myself with longer freebore because my smith's 22BR reamer is also in the .050 range and I want something over .100 freebore. Looking for the 90smk and 95smk to have the bearing surface right at the neck/shoulder junction.

Do you have a print for this new manson reamer you can post or PM me??
Click to expand...
I have mine but the freebore is .195" if you want it.
 
#319
Birddog6424 said:
Looks like a good print. The .255 neck is a must, and pretty much ideal.. Freebore is easy to set.

I ran a .180 freebore for 95gr SMKs. It was appropriate. I had a lot of jump when I ran 88s through it.
Click to expand...

I'll be running 90smk and 95smk. Just want it to be close to the lands with the bearing surface right at the neck/shoulder junction. Plenty of neck to chase the lands down the road.. I won't be shooting lighter bullets
 
#327
jzerfoss said:
Haven't tried 90s. My first barrel didn't like 95s much and I have so many 88s I didn't try 95s in my second barrel.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. My 220 Thunderbolt LOVES 90smk. Super accurate @ 3000.

I'm having a 22br spun up for my TL3 to do a side by side comparison. I have a shit ton of 90smk and they shot so well in my 220TB I never tested the 95smk so I'd like to use them in this 22br...
 
#329
stello1001 said:
Do you know case capacity on 220TB?
Click to expand...

I dont....but I shoot a mild 28.5gr varget load under a 90smk at 3000 put of a 26" 1:7 Bartlein. Took it up to 3150 during load development without pressure but settled on 3000 for barrel life which is over 2000rd with my first GM barrel and and cuts are getting 2500rd or so.
 
#335
I've read through this whole thread over the last few days, and have managed to forget what twist folks are using. Do most people go with a 7-twist, or something else close to that?

ETA: Sorry, for the 88 ELDMs somewhere around 2900-3k
 
#338
reubenski said:
There's this:

Twist Rate Stability Calculator

Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.
bergerbullets.com

And this:


"They" say bullets blow up spinning faster than 290,000rpm. Pick your poison.
Click to expand...
Thanks. This is another tool, and the site helpfully provides the needed inputs in a database:

JBM - Calculations - Stability

www.jbmballistics.com

Says the 7-twist is stable across all plausible scenarios at that MV, but was curious to here what people have found success with.
 
#339
reubenski said:
It's not all about stability with fast 22's. You're also trying to not blow up bullets. Anything after 1.5SG is stable.

There's stability and then there's stability +++++++ POOF!!! You can also suffer accuracy when you overspin bullets.
Click to expand...
Understood, but it seems like plenty of people are spinning them at 305-310k, based on reported MVs and twists.

@Birddog6424 No need to reply, I found your post (#316) that stated you've been using all 7-twists. Thanks for putting the info out there!
 
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#340
reubenski said:
I shot a match this summer with a guy shooting a long barreled 22-250AI. 1:6.5". 95's at 3K plus. He started off decent. Then started having no call misses. I asked him if he had problems blowing up bullets, he emphatically stated No. And then I saw it. A white cloud about 30yds out. He didn't believe it. The next stage it happened again and other people in our squad saw it. By this time it was early afternoon and hot out. Barrel had at least 50rds on it, assuming it was clean going into the match.

People don't blow up bullets, until they do. I opted to go with a twist that Berger told me was good, but still stays under 290K.
Click to expand...
I'm curious as to how one should run the 95gr SMK though, because Berger's stability calculator says it's marginal at 7-twist and only barely makes 1.5 SG at 3k and a 6.5 twist (332k RPM). That one appears to be tough, at least on paper.
 
#341
Birddog6424 said:
Definitely!

I have had zero issues running 88s and 85.5s a little over 3k fps in a 7 twist. I think my current load is spinning at about 311k rpms. I've never popped a bullet in my BR in any weather.

But I learned a hard lesson playing with a 22 Creedmoor last year. I was trying to run 95gr SMKs in a 7 twist barrel at 3100fps. A speed easily obtainable in that round. And at a September NRL match in northern Utah I popped about 35 bullets over two days. Always after 11am after we were warmed up. Trying to run the 95gr SMK is a head scratcher..

I bagged the 22 Creed. It just wasn't doing what I wanted. I'm in the process of spinning up a 22GT with a 7.5" twist Hawk Hill that i plan on running over 3100fps with 85gr Hybrids. That'll be a good round in the wind if I can get it shooting well. And barrel life is looking a lot better than the Creedmoor.
Click to expand...
Whats the reason for going to the GT if you've had such good luck with the 22BR?
Just trying to squeeze a bit more speed, or just try to something different, or something else?
 
#342
Birddog6424 said:
I do love the 22BR. This last round of load development i had with it really found a sweet spot with a longer freebore and jump on the 85s.

I'm just tinkering at this point. I'd really like to find a fast moving wind gun with some decent barrel life and low recoil. Out here in the northwest we get some pretty heavy wind matches. I ran a 6 Creed for years, played around with heavy pill 6.5s. The 22 Creed experiment was very short lived. But I think a fast moving round with a medium sized case has a chance. Fat chance, I know. But maybe ill hit a sweet spot with 85gr hybrids or ATips running 3100 to 3150.. 🤣
Click to expand...
I'm stuck between 22 GT and BR for my tikka build. 16-18" / Bravo / ultra 7. Steel, yotes, whitetail etc. 88s primary with occasional atips.

Creedmoor looks fun I just can't get past the barrel life on principle, even if I can afford it.

Keeping cost per round low makes shooting more fun IMO.

Not sure the BR has enough case capacity for a shorty. Not looking for light speed, but 2850 + or so would be sweet.

Considered a 22 BRA but the GT seems easier if I could get 2500 rounds out of it.

Called straightjacket yesterday asking about 22 BRA. They steered me towards 22GT. With the appha brass it's probably gonna get the nod.
 
#343
CaptArab said:
I'm stuck between 22 GT and BR for my tikka build. 16-18" / Bravo / ultra 7. Steel, yotes, whitetail etc. 88s primary with occasional atips.

Creedmoor looks fun I just can't get past the barrel life on principle, even if I can afford it.

Keeping cost per round low makes shooting more fun IMO.

Not sure the BR has enough case capacity for a shorty. Not looking for light speed, but 2850 + or so would be sweet.

Considered a 22 BRA but the GT seems easier if I could get 2500 rounds out of it.

Called straightjacket yesterday asking about 22 BRA. They steered me towards 22GT. With the appha brass it's probably gonna get the nod.
Click to expand...
I looked at the GT but ended up leaning back to the BR because I wanted to run Lapua or Peterson brass and it seemed the simplest way to do that. I’ve heard of issues with Alpha brass, has that been addressed by now?
 
#344
Birddog6424 said:
I have no doubts you could get 2850fps out of that barrel in a 22BR. It would hold that velocity better over the long run in the GT though.

Nick has cut a lot of 22BRs and GTs. He's a great route to go for either. Myself and a couple buddies stay at his place outside Evanston when we go over for the Hornady PRC, so I know him pretty well. I think either round will treat you good. My good friend runs a 22GT for PRS that Nick cut, he uses ATips and 33grs of SW Long Rifle at about 3130fps. He runs the 88s for local stuff and ATips for Pro Series matches. Same load. Its an impressive round. The BR uses a little less powder, but with 88gr ELDs, both are fairly inexpensive to run.

Barrel life is better on the BR. I ran north of 3000 rounds on my last one. It was still bugholing when I pulled it. I wish it would have been the off-season so I could have seen just how many rounds it would go. My buddies GT had the first barrel make it to 2500, but the second one took a dump pretty quick. Mostly weather related I suspect, as I lost .110 off the throat in my 6GT in 1500 rounds shooting through the NW heatwave this summer.

Cliff's Notes; either would work great for your intended purposes.
Click to expand...
Wow, solid info Birddog.

Thanks for the detailed response. For my usage (non-match) roasting chambers probably wouldn't be a huge concern. Sounds like I could probably be mindful of temps and get 2500.

Your buddies load is a bit milder than I was anticipating as well. Decision decisions.
 
Last edited:
#345
CaptArab said:
I'm stuck between 22 GT and BR for my tikka build. 16-18" / Bravo / ultra 7. Steel, yotes, whitetail etc. 88s primary with occasional atips.

Creedmoor looks fun I just can't get past the barrel life on principle, even if I can afford it.

Keeping cost per round low makes shooting more fun IMO.

Not sure the BR has enough case capacity for a shorty. Not looking for light speed, but 2850 + or so would be sweet.

Considered a 22 BRA but the GT seems easier if I could get 2500 rounds out of it.

Called straightjacket yesterday asking about 22 BRA. They steered me towards 22GT. With the appha brass it's probably gonna get the nod.
Click to expand...

You and I are exactly in the same boat. I want the 22BRA so bad but at 16-18 inches, it's not gonna have the MV or energy I want. I too want to hunt Texas whitetails with it so GT is what I'm considering. I want to go short barrel so I can use it suppressed.
 
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#346
stello1001 said:
You and I are exactly in the same boat. I want the 22BRA so bad but at 16-18 inches, it's not gonna have the MV or energy I want. I too want to hunt Texas whitetails with it so GT is what I'm considering. I want to go short barrel so I can use it suppressed.
Click to expand...
So the other side of the coin is that I'm getting 2850 with the 75 eldm out of a vanilla 223 16" Tikka right now which still carries 1800fps (minimum expansion velocity) well past 500 yards.

It's absolute freakin' lutely devastating on critters.

But I've got the need for speed as well. And hear good things about the 88s on larger mammals.
 
#347
Birddog6424 said:
I do love the 22BR. This last round of load development i had with it really found a sweet spot with a longer freebore and jump on the 85s.

I'm just tinkering at this point. I'd really like to find a fast moving wind gun with some decent barrel life and low recoil. Out here in the northwest we get some pretty heavy wind matches. I ran a 6 Creed for years, played around with heavy pill 6.5s. The 22 Creed experiment was very short lived. But I think a fast moving round with a medium sized case has a chance. Fat chance, I know. But maybe ill hit a sweet spot with 85gr hybrids or ATips running 3100 to 3150.. 🤣
Click to expand...
What magazines are you running the 22BR in? Seems like almost a toss up between the GT and BR (with pros and cons each way) but the lack of (potential) feeding issues with the GT is certainly an advantage.
 
#348
In typing rifle looney fashion, I choose the always correct answer and bought both 😂-

Straight jacket 3b 16.5" 22GT for hunting/ field use, and a forum members used medium Palma 20" 22BR for whatever else.

I'm thinking velocities shouldn't be too far off between the two as I won't be pushing the gt too hard.

Thanks for the info folks- this thread has pretty sweet for starting loads, etc.

I enjoy swapping prefits and tinkering, so if I can get my hands on some powder I should be able to provide some good data points over the next few months.
 
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#349
@padom i have a long neck PTG reamer as well, if you want to use it.
.22 BR is a good round, but i had trouble with my brass staying consistent when i got to the 1800-2k mark. I believe I had 200 pieces of brass, so somewhere in the 8-10 firing location. 7 twist is the ticket.
 
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#350
Forward543 said:
@padom i have a long neck PTG reamer as well, if you want to use it.
.22 BR is a good round, but i had trouble with my brass staying consistent when i got to the 1800-2k mark. I believe I had 200 pieces of brass, so somewhere in the 8-10 firing location. 7 twist is the ticket.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on the brass staying consistent issue? What exactly was happening with your brass?
 
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