The last MDT 223 mag I bought won't feed worth a shit. The rear of the case is up a little bit and the bullets nose dive into the breech face. I've been slowly removing stuff with a Drexel but I don't want to ruin it. I heard @lowlight say they were having issues with new MDT mags as well. This is with a 75gr ELD @ 1.9530 CBTO, nothing crazy
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.223 - 5.56
- Thread starter Two Shoes
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Call them,
They changed my follower out and fixed my issues, what happened is my version was not upgraded as some mags get changed but the inventory is not updated
MDT fixed my issue asap
They changed my follower out and fixed my issues, what happened is my version was not upgraded as some mags get changed but the inventory is not updated
MDT fixed my issue asap
It's a little on the safe side for an ackley but 2815 I've pushed up close to 3 with 4895 but man n150 is just so consistent
Shot groups of 3 for speed today, using the new StaBALL Match powder. Rifle is a 26" proof 223, bullet 75eld seated somewhere around 2.460 coal, brand new lapua brass and cci small rifle primers. I was hoping to find a load around 2850 and that was where I ended up at 25gr. I'll explore this area in the near future.
Lapua Life..
Guys I'm wondering how many firings you get out of your Lapua brass before you toss it.
I shoot a relatively low power batch (23.7g of Varget) on long 80.5 Burgers. Around 2780 if I recall.
My shoulders only grow about .003" and I full case resize with .001 to zero bump back.
I did notice 3 spent cases today that were around .003" longer. Once I punched the old primers they were the same length as the others. So the primers were slightly proud post firing.
A go/no go gage showed them in spec.
Not sure the exact number of firings. .. definitely 10 plus.
So Im wondering if I perhaps I never seated them flush to begin with, or maybe they are on the way out.
So, what's the consensus on Lapua brass life?
Guys I'm wondering how many firings you get out of your Lapua brass before you toss it.
I shoot a relatively low power batch (23.7g of Varget) on long 80.5 Burgers. Around 2780 if I recall.
My shoulders only grow about .003" and I full case resize with .001 to zero bump back.
I did notice 3 spent cases today that were around .003" longer. Once I punched the old primers they were the same length as the others. So the primers were slightly proud post firing.
A go/no go gage showed them in spec.
Not sure the exact number of firings. .. definitely 10 plus.
So Im wondering if I perhaps I never seated them flush to begin with, or maybe they are on the way out.
So, what's the consensus on Lapua brass life?
My understanding is you would take a paper clip and bend it to feel for case head separation in the case. Then obviously split case necks. If you have none of those signs to include loose primers keep chugging along.
I've not burned through any lapua brass yet. But I've got some federal and lc I've had split necks after 5-6 firings and super loose primer pockets get trashed too.
Ya do the paperclip check or use a bore cam if you have one to check for separation. 10 plus is really good though essentially that makes that brass .07 a firing at least. My 223ai lapua brass is on its 5th and I'm starting to get some of the signs that the case head is starting to separate but I've shot 80s at 3k plus so it's not really a suprise
Got 2973 fps average using 75gr ELDM’s and N135 this weekend. Going to try it out in PRS Tactical class
Was out zeroing the new scope on my .223 yesterday and got 2971fps from my 8208 load and dropped 3 on top of each other at 550 yards so happy with it. Going to shoot it in Tac too. What's your N135 load? I have some of that sitting in wait.
I’ve got some questions about 223 loads with 75 ELD-Ms and 80 Berger VLDs with IMR 8208 XBR in Lapua brass.
I have a Redding Type S die with the following bushings .247 .248 and .249.
Rifle is a Savage 10 with a Hawkhill 1-7T prefit with 223 Wylde Chamber.
What Charges and COL are you finding the best luck with?
I have found good groups with 23.5 gn but I don’t feel like the consistency is there. I can shoot groups that are a ragged hole then 3/4“ to 1”. Sometime I get a flyer that is 1.5” to 2” out. I would just like to nail down a load and run it and stop chasing the best load.
This load work up is with COL 2.425 the bottom row is with magnetospeed attached. All photos are 75gn ELD-Ms.
This was testing a .249 bushing vs new brass (out of box) and .247 bushing all 23.5 of 8208 all 2.425
This is the best group from the test above, which tells me it will shoot.
This group is 22.8 of 8208 @ 2.425
Thoughts on were to go? I am running a COL test with 75s at the folllowing COL - Jump if my Hornady COL tool measurements are correct lands at 2.440.
2.400 .040 Jump
2.420 .020 Jump
2.425. .0250 Jump. Still have some loaded.
2.430 .010 Jump
Load process is dry tumble
F/L Size with Type S die (currently .247 bushing that measures .003 neck tension.
Trim of Giurad Tool trimmer
Prime - Fed 205 GMM.
RCBS Charge Master powder charge.
Seat with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seat time.
I have some 80 VLD to I can test in it. The book 2.260 COL seems super short is that accurate? What is a good test load with the 80s?
I have a Redding Type S die with the following bushings .247 .248 and .249.
Rifle is a Savage 10 with a Hawkhill 1-7T prefit with 223 Wylde Chamber.
What Charges and COL are you finding the best luck with?
I have found good groups with 23.5 gn but I don’t feel like the consistency is there. I can shoot groups that are a ragged hole then 3/4“ to 1”. Sometime I get a flyer that is 1.5” to 2” out. I would just like to nail down a load and run it and stop chasing the best load.
This load work up is with COL 2.425 the bottom row is with magnetospeed attached. All photos are 75gn ELD-Ms.
This was testing a .249 bushing vs new brass (out of box) and .247 bushing all 23.5 of 8208 all 2.425
This is the best group from the test above, which tells me it will shoot.
This group is 22.8 of 8208 @ 2.425
Thoughts on were to go? I am running a COL test with 75s at the folllowing COL - Jump if my Hornady COL tool measurements are correct lands at 2.440.
2.400 .040 Jump
2.420 .020 Jump
2.425. .0250 Jump. Still have some loaded.
2.430 .010 Jump
Load process is dry tumble
F/L Size with Type S die (currently .247 bushing that measures .003 neck tension.
Trim of Giurad Tool trimmer
Prime - Fed 205 GMM.
RCBS Charge Master powder charge.
Seat with Forster Ultra Micrometer Seat time.
I have some 80 VLD to I can test in it. The book 2.260 COL seems super short is that accurate? What is a good test load with the 80s?
From my limited experience with Berger VLDS.. start at Jam. I have a few that preferred in the lands actually.
That being said... I'm only shooting 200Y now so the 80.5 OTMs are my go to.
Could your odd groupings be linked to the magnetospeed? Mine messes with harmonics/groups for sure.
That being said... I'm only shooting 200Y now so the 80.5 OTMs are my go to.
Could your odd groupings be linked to the magnetospeed? Mine messes with harmonics/groups for sure.
The magentospeed does change the groups in some cases actually making them tighter. But no sadly most of my testing was not with the MS on the gun. I loaded some VLDs this afternoon at .020 and .040 off the lands with a starting charge. I expect they will be SLOW. hope to shoot a test Saturday morning and see what the data tells me so I can tune/ confirm on Sunday.
My last batch of Lapua .223 brass I got 26 reloads out of it before the primer pocket got too loose to hold a primer. I annealed every 4th firing. My loads were pretty hot at 2800 fps with a 90 gr smk.
With a 1:7 twist you might want to try some heavier bullets like the burger 85 or the 90 gr. smk. I shoot the 90 gr. smk at 2800 fps with good results. I tried several different powders but 25 grains of CFE223 gave me the speed I wanted without the pressure. It never hurts to try a longer jump like .070-,080.
Did some testing with COL and 75s ELD-Ms and 80 VLDs today. Other than pulling a shot 2in low with 2.425 they all shoot around .75" or less. The 80 VLDs show some promise too. Im just wondering if I am splitting hairs. Each range trip I generally get one group that tears a ragged hole (see photos) the others were .6-.75. All shot today. waiting 3-5 minutes between groups. Outside air temp was 48* during test.
Top photo is with 75gn ELDs. 23.5 of 8208 XBR. COL is the test.
- 2.400 is .040 off lands
- 2.420 is .020 off lands
- 2.425 is .025 off lands
- 2.430 is .010 off lands.
This charge is 21.3 of 8208 and COL are noted. I believe they are .040 and .020 off the lands.
What kind of velocity are you getting with N150 out of both the 80s and 85s? Also what barrel length?
I have some and didnt think about trying it with the 88s I have. Only tried leverevolution so far. I also have some RL 15.5 but that may be too bulky for 223.
I bought the N150 I have for 308 but didnt get the speed I wanted because of 20" barrel.
Definitely gonna use up what I have with the 88s. Whats your coal on the 85gr load?
Whats the heaviest charge of 8208 you've tried with the 75s? Ive done 24.5 with a little longer coal than your running. No issues out of a couple hundred so far.
23.5 is where I stopped. not that my results are worth bragging. Im still looking for better consistency.
Same here. These are 1.9520 cbto. Not sure what that is COAL wise.
26" 7.5tw Bartlien. 75gr elds of course. Havent done a ton of testing though. All this new stuff about 5 shot groups being statistically irrelevnt kind of makes me feel a little better though.
The second pic is 75gr hornady bthp with varget. The fliers may have been me shifting position, maybe not.
Attachments
So I had a couple of hours first thing this morning to go shoot my Savage 12 FTR and my home brew that has a 20” Wilson Super Sniper Barrel and a YHM Turbo K muffler on it. About 75% of these loads have been shot by me before, that’s why most of the groups are in the alright category. Didn’t try to cherry pick but mostly verify stuff I knew would work. Anyways, the load data is on the cards. If you have specific questions, just ask. Shot a bunch of 85RDF loads last week with 8208 and the groups just got better and better the higher up I went. 23.7 and 24.1 were damn near one hole. But….the primers were hugely cratered. So I backed off today and it’s still shooting less than 1/2”. Good enough. No use tearing up the brass. Finding an 8lb jug of 8208 for sale has been like finding a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.
So a while back I posted some results in the 5.56 AR load thread of using MP540 powder that you get from American Reloading. It should have went into this thread really, so I did some velocity testing to post here as there just isn’t that much info out there about this powder. I loaded up 10 rounds at .2 increments starting at 25 grains and going up to 26.8 grains. At 26.8, the powder was to the top of the case. You might get another .5 of a grain or so, but that’s it. The other components used were nickel Speer twice fired, not annealed, with a 205M and a 52SMK 2nds bullet from Midway seated at 1.897 BTO. Unfortunately, I had some Magneto Speed issues, so velocity was only measured from 25.8 thru 26.8. I will try again at a later date to get 25 - 25.6. The test rifle is a bit different than most will have, but it’s what I used. It’s a Savage 12 FTR with a 1:7 factory 30” barrel. All 10 shots at the same point of aim at 100 yards. All 10 went into a 1.026“ group. Pretty good when you consider there is almost 2 grains of difference from highest to lowest charge. Now that I have written a novel, on to the pics.
page in my reloading book that shows velocities I got recorded:
the brass top left is 25 and bottom right is 26.8, reads like a book
the target
page in my reloading book that shows velocities I got recorded:
the brass top left is 25 and bottom right is 26.8, reads like a book
the target
Hi guys, a little help needed
looking to reload Berger 80 Grain Very Low Drag (VLD) Target Rifle Bullet, so I need a little info on what it likes, does it like jam, or big jump, how tight the neck should be, does it like tighter or looser neck tension....
regarding the equipment will do this with RCBS matchmaster FL die with bushing and micrometer seating die from the same kit,
the bushing I will use is .249(redding), (will remove the titanium carbo nitride expander)
and finily i will run it throug 21st Century Innovation mandrel (e22).
cases will be lubed with moly coating from the inside.
cases are from lapua (old lots), and primers should be CCI400
powder is N140
The rifle itself is 1:7 and I have managed to shoot about 0,4 MOA @ 300 meters(with hornady ELD75)....
would much appreciate if someone nudge me in the right direction
looking to reload Berger 80 Grain Very Low Drag (VLD) Target Rifle Bullet, so I need a little info on what it likes, does it like jam, or big jump, how tight the neck should be, does it like tighter or looser neck tension....
regarding the equipment will do this with RCBS matchmaster FL die with bushing and micrometer seating die from the same kit,
the bushing I will use is .249(redding), (will remove the titanium carbo nitride expander)
and finily i will run it throug 21st Century Innovation mandrel (e22).
cases will be lubed with moly coating from the inside.
cases are from lapua (old lots), and primers should be CCI400
powder is N140
The rifle itself is 1:7 and I have managed to shoot about 0,4 MOA @ 300 meters(with hornady ELD75)....
would much appreciate if someone nudge me in the right direction
Did you notice anything about the SMKs that would indicate why they were 2nds?So a while back I posted some results in the 5.56 AR load thread of using MP540 powder that you get from American Reloading. It should have went into this thread really, so I did some velocity testing to post here as there just isn’t that much info out there about this powder. I loaded up 10 rounds at .2 increments starting at 25 grains and going up to 26.8 grains. At 26.8, the powder was to the top of the case. You might get another .5 of a grain or so, but that’s it. The other components used were nickel Speer twice fired, not annealed, with a 205M and a 52SMK 2nds bullet from Midway seated at 1.897 BTO. Unfortunately, I had some Magneto Speed issues, so velocity was only measured from 25.8 thru 26.8. I will try again at a later date to get 25 - 25.6. The test rifle is a bit different than most will have, but it’s what I used. It’s a Savage 12 FTR with a 1:7 factory 30” barrel. All 10 shots at the same point of aim at 100 yards. All 10 went into a 1.026“ group. Pretty good when you consider there is almost 2 grains of difference from highest to lowest charge. Now that I have written a novel, on to the pics.
page in my reloading book that shows velocities I got recorded:
the brass top left is 25 and bottom right is 26.8, reads like a book
the target
I have a box of 80 VLDs that I've been wanting to try. Haven't done much loading with the bullet jam. Here's Bergers recommended steps.
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Background"VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.
Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker"
A whole bunch of discoloration mostly. Never weight or length sorted, but they seem to all be damn close BTO when seated at the same setting leading me to believe that dimensions are pretty close.
thank you very much for reply, i will try it out and i will inform you about results i am getting, the application for this rifle will be target rifle, to shoot in local f class matches @300, 500 and beyond...
the rifle system itself is mark x, which is rebarreled by the company who produce it, and it has 1:7 twist with 24" length and 22mm on mouth of the barrel, scope is kahles 1050 moak, and AB Carbon Fibre Bipod ....
any takes on what speed should i push the 80 bergers?
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What chamber are you running? I'm running a custom Manson reamer 223ai and I use lapua brass and get the vld 80s to about 2950 or maybe 3k. I personally like the 85.5 LRHT way better. They shoot lights out. I had a pet load of n150 with the 85.5s at 25.1 and it was right around 2820 fps and 812y into a slight cross head wind my elevation was 18.5 moa which I checked the bc for that and it came out to like .324 g7
How much ar comp are you using to get 2800? And are you running a 223 or a 223ai?
Edit: I’m dumb I see the 23.1 now. But curious on the ai still
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unfortunately my chamber is plain old 223, because factory did not have any other reamers....
Standard 223.
Edit: It’s a standard 223 reamer with a .078 fb. You can go slightly longer but oal is already within .040-.050 of max mag length of 2.55”.
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Right on, thanks for the info. I’m currently collecting parts for a 223 build. I’m gunna get my hands on some ar comp and give this a shot. 2800 seams plenty fast with the 85.5s
I'd say 2950fps area. I have had 2930-2970 and they have all worked out past 1000.
Even a little lower than that should be fine for most stuff. I have hit 3,000 in a 26" with 8208 XBR.
Im at 2933 with my load of 8208 XBR. Finally got it shooting half MOA consistently. Gonna shoot a match with it tomorrow and see how that goes.
Have people had really good luck with AR Comp and the Berger 85.5s? It seems like to fast of a powder but idk
I might try it. Seems like if you work up carefully faster powders can give you a velocity bump with heavier bullet. The fact that it's extremely temp stable is attractive. When running a hotter load with a bullet that heavy I don't want any pressure spikes due to temp sensitivity.
I'm also slowly working out RL15.5 and Varget with the 88s. I assume if a powder isn't showing pressure with 88s it will probably be close to ok with the 85.5s. 88s just not shooting that great in my gun. In the .8 moa range consistently. Might be decent for PRS.
I haven't even shot a PRS match this year. For me the 75gr ELD @3000 makes more sense but I am still trying to work the 88s at 2.54 coal for PRS because one match near me goes to 1400. I want all the bullet ass I can get out that far.
Also testing at longer coal to single feed for F class but I think I'm done trying to use Hornadys for that.
Curious as what your starting load/powder was for the 90's.
I'm testing out some heavies this week with 85.5 Bergers, 88 ELD's and 90 SMK. Book is showing pretty damn low for my power (8208). Don't wanna start that low and waste components and time.
I have a Savage Model 12 in .223 and I am shooting the 75 ELD-M at LONGER jump getting better accuracy (1/4") than loading them up closer to the lands. Presently at 2.390 (about 60 off the lands). Avg FPS: 2887/ SD: 9.8 with AR-Comp.
I would be interested in his numbers also.
Really depends on your COAL, any idea where jam is in your chamber? The 88s are at hard jam in mine right around 2.600"
I have done up to 24.4gr Varget, 25gr RL15.5, 25.6 CFE 223 and 26.0 Leverevolution, Lake City brass. Charges would need to be lower with Lapua, seems to have less capacity. The lever load seems to be right on the edge of pressure for me. I think I can go a little higher with the others. CCI 41 military primers with the hard cup seem to tolerate the hotter loads. May be fine with 450s also, I have heard all the CCI primers have harder cups than say Federal (except the CCI 400s which are for things like 222 rem.)
