.223 - 5.56

[Dstoenner]

Seriously? Without modification?

Is that the new metal mag?

The MDT web site says:

• 2.50” max cartridge overall length (COAL)

I run Accurate Mags that will feed up to 2.650" OAL, but I have to modify them to do it. Out of the box unmodified 223 Accurate Mags are only about 2.3 or 2.4 inches.

It would be real nice if there is a good 223 AI pattern mag that can run that or longer without modification.

I'll be chambering another 223 barrel soon to run the 90 grain ATips and I figure the COAL will be around 2.670"

I’ll measure again tomorrow. These are not metal but the hard plastics. I run 85.5 at 2.585 with a lot of room.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

8 twist plays nice with 75gr eld-ms.

haven't touched 80 or 88's, it's too cold to trust stability when it's 20 below in the tikkas factory barrels

mdt mags ain't 2.8" that for sure.

 

[Dstoenner]

Ok I measured mine and you are right. It is currently 2.550. But there is nothing blocking you from extending the window to at least 2.600.

sorry. I guess at 73 my memory on something i measured 4 years ago isn’t what it used to be. At the time i was shooting only up to 80.5’s but i rebarreled and now go up to 85.5. Since all the competitions i shoot are single load it is a moot question.

David

 

[PracticalTactical]

I haven't been out shooting much for quite a while, just been busy I guess.

I did get out today though. I made the effort because my Windy phone app called for really light winds, like 1 MPH, so I made the effort and got an early start.

Been testing various neck turning thicknesses, trying to improve bullet to bore alignment.

This load is a full grain under what I normally run, but the group is pretty good. If you can read the chicken scratch, the bullet is 88 gr ELDM.

The FPS is written next to each shot. 15 FPS ES.

The necks on the brass I used here were clear about 0.001". Next time out I'm going to run the necks a bit thicker yet. See If I can get it to settle down.

 

[Solo 43]

I'm just getting my 223 together: ex-Palma rifle trued up M700/pinned Tubb lug/30" fluted Krieger 1-8" in a KRG Bravo stock. Awaiting arrival of scope, but...got a question: you shooting a 7' twist for the 88 ELDM's and what length barrel.

Thanks.

 

[PracticalTactical]

I'm just getting my 223 together: ex-Palma rifle trued up M700/pinned Tubb lug/30" fluted Krieger 1-8" in a KRG Bravo stock. Awaiting arrival of scope, but...got a question: you shooting a 7' twist for the 88 ELDM's and what length barrel.

Thanks.

All 3 of my 223 barrels are 26 inches long.

 

[Snuby642]

WTF

No SBR for CQB, no Carbine for GP no DMR setup?

Just a range toy?

Bless your heart.

 

[PracticalTactical]

WTF
No SBR for CQB, no Carbine for GP no DMR setup?
Just a range toy?
Bless your heart.

uh... ya... here in Canada all that fun stuff is reserved for the govt, so for now at least we can use bolt guns.
USA beware of liberals.

 

[Snuby642]

I feel your pain time for a regime change.

 

[Pharmseller]

1-8”

1-10”

 

[DIBBS]

Load development= completed!

 

[thedude824]

Does anyone have load data for 69 grain SMK with Vihtavuori N140?
Sierra says max load is 25.1 grains
Vihtavuori says max load is 25.9 grains
24.1 grains shoots amazing with the 77 grain SMK.

 

[EJ1001]

I have been running 25.4 of N140 with the 69 SMK (3,055 avg over 10 shots)
CCI BR-4, Lapua brass, .024 jump
26" 1:9 factory barrel

I have just been shooting this at 100Y. Very accurate (for me).

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I'll add that my Tikka 223 shoots 23.8gr of N140 very accurately with a 75gr Hornady BTHP bullet (loaded to 2.260"). I've shot this load out to 500 yards. My velocity is about 2760fps with it.

 

[simpy16]

Jumping into a trainer rifle, will be going .223ai in a 26" 1:7 twist. I have some 75 and 88 ELDMs currently but not totally settled on what I will shoot most the time. I have Lapua brass, and 3k Fed Match SRP for now. My question is which powder should I play with...

I bought some N135, but worried I should have gone 140 but plan to use this for fireforming and barrel break-in. I have 2lbs of XBR and hoping that is the ticket to a decent load with those bullets. I can get some H4895, N140, N540 and do have some IMR 4166 I could use if it is in fact similar to Varget (saving my Varget for the Dasher).

Hoping to not have to buy 5 different types of powder and can hone in on a load quickly to start stocking up on the rest of the components. Thanks.

 

[PracticalTactical]

It's become so cliche that any time someone makes a statement about any form of 223, that it must be prefaced with the disclaimer that it is a "training rifle". It's gotten to the point that it sounds like some sort of apology for someone having "alternative sexual preferences"... not that there's anything wrong with that... as heads nod in agreement.

Oh hey, I compete with a 223... Not that there's anything wrong with that... Should be on a T shirt.

 

[Solo 43]

IF....repeat, IF, you're a 99+%'tile shooter, you need the small ballistic advantage offered by a 6mm/6.5, but how many folks qualify for that level of expertise? When I was shooting Palma (20 yrs ago and I was on the US Palma Team), I shot several matches with my 223 and regardless of what the #'s from Sierra/Berger said, I noticed a 'small' difference in windage @ 1000 yds vs my 308/155 rig. I very interested to see how this 85.5 Berger shoots in my 223, which I've just set up for some PRS style matches I'll be attending next year. I believe Tehama County has some matches and that's about a 4 hour drive. So, don't think the 223 is a 'practice' rig......I don't.

 

[Snuby642]

My thoughts on 223 practice.

Without a doubt I have used the platform to test everything.

Every facet of reloading gear and technic is tested on 223 brass because it's inexpensive to shoot.

Scopes, bags and driving all get ran through the 223 grinder first.

There are plenty of 223 sports to enjoy.

The term "Trainer" increasingly, has been used in a derogatory manner by snobs.

 

[Solo 43]

Exactly!

 

[TonyTheTiger]

My thoughts on 223 practice.

Without a doubt I have used the platform to test everything.

Every facet of reloading gear and technic is tested on 223 brass because it's inexpensive to shoot.

Scopes, bags and driving all get ran through the 223 grinder first.

There are plenty of 223 sports to enjoy.

The term "Trainer" increasingly, has been used in a derogatory manner by snobs.

For sure. I have rifles in 13 calibers other than 223, most of them more powerful too. Still ended up with 10+ 223 rifles that get shot way more and it's the caliber I have the most fun with by a huge margin.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

I've got a T3x 223, great rifle, definitely not a trainer, one of my main guns. I shoot 500 yard F Class with it, and I recently placed 1st in a local Benchrest match with it.

 

[260284]

Jumping into a trainer rifle, will be going .223ai in a 26" 1:7 twist. I have some 75 and 88 ELDMs currently but not totally settled on what I will shoot most the time. I have Lapua brass, and 3k Fed Match SRP for now. My question is which powder should I play with...

I bought some N135, but worried I should have gone 140 but plan to use this for fireforming and barrel break-in. I have 2lbs of XBR and hoping that is the ticket to a decent load with those bullets. I can get some H4895, N140, N540 and do have some IMR 4166 I could use if it is in fact similar to Varget (saving my Varget for the Dasher).

Hoping to not have to buy 5 different types of powder and can hone in on a load quickly to start stocking up on the rest of the components. Thanks.

I have had great luck with H4895 and 75gr ELDMs in NAMMO(parent company of Lapua) brass. I am using a 1:8 twist, so I haven't shot anything heavier than the 75gr ELDM. Getting over 3000 fps with a factory Tikka varmint barrel suppressed. Thinking about setting it back, rechambering it to 223AI, and chopping it shorter for coyote calling. I have a 1:7 Bartlein blank for my next barrel.

I have shot some 4166 out of my 22BR and it is very close to Varget. I tried Varget and H4895 in the 223, but H4895 won the speed and accuracy battle for me.

 

[jLorenzo]

I'll add that my Tikka 223 shoots 23.8gr of N140 very accurately with a 75gr Hornady BTHP bullet (loaded to 2.260"). I've shot this load out to 500 yards. My velocity is about 2760fps with it.

This is the 24" barrel?

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

This is the 24" barrel?

Correct. This is with the factory 24" barrel.

 

[rifledoc]

Rebs, try 25 grains for a highly accurate load. Not sure about fps, but should be around 3150-3160 in the 20". The H335 is not the fastest load, but is extremely accurate on 55-60 grain for the 223. My buddy worked up this load, and last week I saw "most accurate powder tested" in Nosler's reload manual.

Any more info on this load? I got 60 grain hornady v max im looking to run h-335 through for my 16 in AR

 

[260284]

Any more info on this load? I got 60 grain hornady v max im looking to run h-335 through for my 16 in AR

Hodgdon shows 22.5-24 gr of H335 in Winchester brass for the 60gr V-max.

 

[Snuby642]

Start with the powder you have the most of or you can get more of.

All 3 will work.
Which is best is another day.
Set a baseline with that most available powder and then test the others.

You can use the base load as a controll to eliminate problems on each trip out.

 

[simpy16]

Anyone work up some loads using VV N140 or VV N135 using 70gr bullets? I have no experience with VV powders but its what I can find locally. Mainly looking to fireform Lapua brass in my AI rifle.

 

[EJ1001]

I have a N140 load that has been working quite well, but it may be a bit warm. I share anyway and YMMV.

25gr N140
CCI BR-4 primer
Lapua brass
69 SMK, .024 jump
~2,950 fps (if memory serves)
26" 1:9 barrel

I like N140. Works great in my .308 as well.

 

[simpy16]

I have a N140 load that has been working quite well, but it may be a bit warm. I share anyway and YMMV.

25gr N140
CCI BR-4 primer
Lapua brass
69 SMK, .024 jump
~2,950 fps (if memory serves)
26" 1:9 barrel

I like N140. Works great in my .308 as well.

thanks. I have 1 lb of 135 and I wish I would have just gotten all N140. I will be shooting a 24" 1:7 twist, I had thought about going shorter so got the 135 for that reason but now it might be a little too quick for what I want.

 

[Rogerthatout]

This is above book value but I run roughly 2875 FPS with 23.5 XBR, 75 ELDm on a SAC 223 22.5" barrel. 1/2 or better at 100 and gets me to 1000yards supersonic. Can't complain.
I also do 2875 with 24.8 varget and 80 SMK/80 ELD-M. The 80 SMK is way more accurate at short distance but the 80ELDm is better past 800yards.

This is exactly how I see it.
How much are you jumping the ELD 75’s?

 

[Rogerthatout]

Grab some CFE223 if you can find some. Meters great. You can look on Hodgdon’s site for data for the 62s if none is listed here.

I have CFE223, but concerned it’s not temperature stable. Not good for long ranges or PRS, from what I’m hearing.

 

[Rob01]

I have CFE223, but concerned it’s not temperature stable. Not good for long ranges or PRS, from what I’m hearing.

It’s not as temp stable as others but if it’s all you have or can find it will work. Just have to learn the velocities with the temp changes.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Short throats, short magazines and short actions are the root problems with the 223.

If your jam length requires bullets to be seated into the donut, the chamber is too short.

If your mag cannot run cartridges that are long enough to seat bullets ahead of the donut, your mags are too short.

If your action cannot cycle such a round, your action is too short.

Best mags I found are Accurate Mags. The steel ones with a plastic insert. These are best because they can be easily modified by taking the plastic inserts out and milling them internally to suit a longer COAL.

As stated earlier in this thread: I run my 223 with 88 ELDM bullets seated to 2.625 OAL and feed from modded Accurate Mag with no issues. Velocity is 2900 FPS easy with no pressure problems.

Accuracy is 1/2 MOA.

Shot spray paint cans from 750 yards a couple months ago... Cans were on the side so I had to hit the diameter, not the side. Hit the first can with the first shot. Missed the second can and it rolled down the hill. Hit the third can with the first shot.

What powder are you running ? How many firings do you get on a case ? Lapua, LC, or ? Thanks

 

[Snuby642]

If you have to shoot 223 out of an archaic bolt operated gun you just might live in a communist controlled country.


Just finished assembly today.

 

[PracticalTactical]

What powder are you running ? How many firings do you get on a case ? Lapua, LC, or ? Thanks

Hi Seymour,

There's nothing really new about the load. F Class guys here in Canada have been running loads like this for about 20 years now. There was an article in the DCRA magazine about some testing they were doing back then. All I did was come up with a way to run my f class loads in a repeater. Me and a few buddies have wanted to do this for a very long time. These new steel 223 AI pattern mags made it possible.

I use both Lapua and IVI brass. The only reason I use Lapua is for when I want real tight neck clearances because its thicker in the neck.

I buy IVI brass several thousand at a time, process all of it, anneal it and sort into groups within 0.1 grain. By starting with several thousand, I get lots of several hundred that are all essentially identical weight. They live together forever.

Here in Canada its hard to find bulk Lake City brass, but I would use that as my first choice if I could. The bases of LC brass are so tough I can always feel it when I come across one in the press. I usually find a few in with the IVI cases.

As for the number of firings, I'm not sure yet. I've had at least 6 reloads so far. Primers are still firm.

The trick is to make sure the cases are fired with a light load the first time. The second time can be increased a bit, and the third firing can be full 2900 FPS with my long seating depth. I either just neck size or if I do a full body size, I just make the smallest measurable move. I am careful not to reduce the body diameter any more than I need to.

I use Varget mostly since I have so much of it, but I also like 8208 XBR for the smaller kernels. It's otherwise pretty much the same as Varget.

And I have an update on the mags... I have recently got ahold of the new steel 223 MDT mag. It's the new one with a steel body and plastic inserts. It's a little more work to extend to 2.670" but I like them better than the Accurate Mags now.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Hi Seymour,

There's nothing really new about the load. F Class guys here in Canada have been running loads like this for about 20 years now. There was an article in the DCRA magazine about some testing they were doing back then. All I did was come up with a way to run my f class loads in a repeater. Me and a few buddies have wanted to do this for a very long time. These new steel 223 AI pattern mags made it possible.

I use both Lapua and IVI brass. The only reason I use Lapua is for when I want real tight neck clearances because its thicker in the neck.

I buy IVI brass several thousand at a time, process all of it, anneal it and sort into groups within 0.1 grain. By starting with several thousand, I get lots of several hundred that are all essentially identical weight. They live together forever.

Here in Canada its hard to find bulk Lake City brass, but I would use that as my first choice if I could. The bases of LC brass are so tough I can always feel it when I come across one in the press. I usually find a few in with the IVI cases.

As for the number of firings, I'm not sure yet. I've had at least 6 reloads so far. Primers are still firm.

The trick is to make sure the cases are fired with a light load the first time. The second time can be increased a bit, and the third firing can be full 2900 FPS with my long seating depth. I either just neck size or if I do a full body size, I just make the smallest measurable move. I am careful not to reduce the body diameter any more than I need to.

I use Varget mostly since I have so much of it, but I also like 8208 XBR for the smaller kernels. It's otherwise pretty much the same as Varget.

And I have an update on the mags... I have recently got ahold of the new steel 223 MDT mag. It's the new one with a steel body and plastic inserts. It's a little more work to extend to 2.670" but I like them better than the Accurate Mags now.

Practical, All good tips. Much oblige ! Seymour

 

[TommyD11730]

Hey guys, just picked up some Berger 77OTMs to shoot through a 28" 1-7 barrel.
Berger has a max Varget charge listed at 22.5g. Without running it through quickload it seems mighty conservative. May I ask if anyone has any real world input.
Thanks!

 

[Rob01]

Hey guys, just picked up some Berger 77OTMs to shoot through a 28" 1-7 barrel.
Berger has a max Varget charge listed at 22.5g. Without running it through quickload it seems mighty conservative. May I ask if anyone has any real world input.
Thanks!

22.5 seems awful low. Hodgdon lists 23.7 as the max. Especially if you are loading them longer than SAAMI and adjusted off the ogive jump to lands then you should be able to go higher. Somewhere in here I think I listed my 75 ELD load as around 25.1grns. I worked up to that though with them at .020" off lands.

 

[TommyD11730]

22.5 seems awful low. Hodgdon lists 23.7 as the max. Especially if you are loading them longer than SAAMI and adjusted off the ogive jump to lands then you should be able to go higher. Somewhere in here I think I listed my 75 ELD load as around 25.1grns. I worked up to that though with them at .020" off lands.

First run will be plain old "mag length" 2.260. Though I will measure them in the barrel to see jam length.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Practical, All good tips. Much oblige ! Seymour

My pleasure. Keep you posted as to outcomes at distance. Seymour

 

[Seymour Fish]

Hey guys, just picked up some Berger 77OTMs to shoot through a 28" 1-7 barrel.
Berger has a max Varget charge listed at 22.5g. Without running it through quickload it seems mighty conservative. May I ask if anyone has any real world input.
Thanks!

Seems light. Ran Varget At 23.7 with a 90 vld with no pressure in mixed LC brass.

 

[Seymour Fish]

Hi Seymour,

There's nothing really new about the load. F Class guys here in Canada have been running loads like this for about 20 years now. There was an article in the DCRA magazine about some testing they were doing back then. All I did was come up with a way to run my f class loads in a repeater. Me and a few buddies have wanted to do this for a very long time. These new steel 223 AI pattern mags made it possible.

I use both Lapua and IVI brass. The only reason I use Lapua is for when I want real tight neck clearances because its thicker in the neck.

I buy IVI brass several thousand at a time, process all of it, anneal it and sort into groups within 0.1 grain. By starting with several thousand, I get lots of several hundred that are all essentially identical weight. They live together forever.

Here in Canada its hard to find bulk Lake City brass, but I would use that as my first choice if I could. The bases of LC brass are so tough I can always feel it when I come across one in the press. I usually find a few in with the IVI cases.

As for the number of firings, I'm not sure yet. I've had at least 6 reloads so far. Primers are still firm.

The trick is to make sure the cases are fired with a light load the first time. The second time can be increased a bit, and the third firing can be full 2900 FPS with my long seating depth. I either just neck size or if I do a full body size, I just make the smallest measurable move. I am careful not to reduce the body diameter any more than I need to.

I use Varget mostly since I have so much of it, but I also like 8208 XBR for the smaller kernels. It's otherwise pretty much the same as Varget.

And I have an update on the mags... I have recently got ahold of the new steel 223 MDT mag. It's the new one with a steel body and plastic inserts. It's a little more work to extend to 2.670" but I like them better than the Accurate Mags now.

Like your forward thinking expanding the reach of the semi.

 

[Rob01]

First run will be plain old "mag length" 2.260. Though I will measure them in the barrel to see jam length.

Just work up then and see where it takes you. My 75 ELDs are about 2.470” at .020” off.

 

[Snuby642]

Like your forward thinking expanding the reach of the semi.

He is not shooting any of that in an ar.

Unfortunately he lives in a communist controlled country.

 

[Dstoenner]

I am running a 26 inch 1:7. My load for this exact bullet, berger 77 otm is 25.0 Varget loaded at 2.380 COAL. I use GRTools and it says i am just over 15% below max pressure line and they shot great .53 at 100.

My rifle is in a MDT chassis so i have a lot of headroom in an AICS mag

David

 

[Snuby642]

Sure hope this barrel settles in.
Still on breakin so short test strings.

Need to find some 60-69g bullets that run good in an ar. These 52g bullets won't go the distance.

 

[TommyD11730]

Just a quickload estimation.

 

[alanapone]

Is anyone using the following through a Remington 700LTR? (20", 1:9 twist barrel)

Hornady match 75gr HPBT.
N140
Lapua cases
CCI 400 small rifle primers.

I did a basic load with 24gr of powder and seated to 5though off the lands but the group wasn't up to standard (100yds gave a 3" group) I've not had much time to look into it yet and having remembered I signed up to this forum ages ago, I got I to this thread a bit tonight and saw a few people posting similar loads so I have some hope I can work a load out and get back to cloverleaf groups at 100yds again.

I just thought I'd ask if anyone is using the same components I have on the off chance I can short cut the process a bit.

 

[DaveCo]

I never had much luck with that combo in a 1:9 twist. It's a solid performer in 2 different 1:7 guns, but I found you have to push it quite a bit faster than possible with n140 to get it to group in a 1:9.

I was finally able to get some ok results with max loads of CFE223, 24 inch barrel, at 5-6000 ft elevation.
But they never were really stellar. I decided to stop wasting time and components, and just shot them in my other guns.

Sorry I can't be more help,

Dave