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.223 - 5.56
- Thread starter Two Shoes
- Start date
I think people run the heavies in bolt guns and some ar platforms that have extended throats and forget.
That leaves people with more standard spec chambers out in the weeds. Surprisingly it ends up in print from a well respected source and goes from there.
I don't think starting out in the lands is a good idea for an ar round.
That leaves people with more standard spec chambers out in the weeds. Surprisingly it ends up in print from a well respected source and goes from there.
I don't think starting out in the lands is a good idea for an ar round.
Well my Berger 55FB targets arrived. 2.40" should set them around 20 tho from the lands in my rifle.
Will try some N133 starting at 22.9 and as long as things look good ending at 23.8g. GRT predicts velocity of 3100 for the 23.8g.
I have my doubts they will out shoot the 80.5s in my 1-7T but we shall see.
Always open thoughts/opinions
.
Will try some N133 starting at 22.9 and as long as things look good ending at 23.8g. GRT predicts velocity of 3100 for the 23.8g.
I have my doubts they will out shoot the 80.5s in my 1-7T but we shall see.
Always open thoughts/opinions
.
Weather permitting (and if my Garmin shows up) I'll let you know this weekend.
Would rather not use my Magnetospeed as it has shown some POI changes.
A while back in the great ammo component depression I grabbed some H335
( an old school favorite come to find out) since my regular cfe 223 was out of stock.
So far for 52g and 55g bullets it has produced sub 1/2 inch groups in both.
You can scoot it along pretty fast in a 1/8 twist.
Now all my powders are a back up to the H335 for my 223 "plinkers". lol
Just an fyi for something to try out.
( an old school favorite come to find out) since my regular cfe 223 was out of stock.
So far for 52g and 55g bullets it has produced sub 1/2 inch groups in both.
You can scoot it along pretty fast in a 1/8 twist.
Now all my powders are a back up to the H335 for my 223 "plinkers". lol
Just an fyi for something to try out.
I have read that the Tac is better for heavier for calibur than light.
I bought it for 69g + 223 and 120g ish 6.5 grendel .
My first tests with 69g and Tack were ruined due to starting in the lands accidentally, now that I started over with H335 I discovered the mistake.
The H335 load is showing too much promise to abandon and will get finished out before redoing the Tac load that is supposed to be the star combo with the components I have.
I bought it for 69g + 223 and 120g ish 6.5 grendel .
My first tests with 69g and Tack were ruined due to starting in the lands accidentally, now that I started over with H335 I discovered the mistake.
The H335 load is showing too much promise to abandon and will get finished out before redoing the Tac load that is supposed to be the star combo with the components I have.
I used to run that load (23.5) at 2.535 during the varget shortage. It’s definitely hot. I've blown primers at 24.0 on a ladder on a hot day on weak brass but never had an issue with Lapua. Be very careful, book max is actually 21gr with the SMK80.
QL Gives you 58K PSI with a match chamber loaded at 2.535. If you are to load at for example 2.430in which is about a Wylde chamber you'd be looking at 63.5K PSI
In my experience, XBR was better with the Scenar 77 and 75 ELD-M (23.5gr). I've shot 1/4 moa groups with the Scenar and XBR, very good 0-300y bullet.
Varget was my accurate load (24.5) with SMK 80, and ELD-M 80.
Thank you that is good information. I am running a wylde chamber seated to 2.500 which is about .030 off the lands. I did a latter test from 22.8 to 23.6. I also run the 77 smk with 23.2gr of 8208. Primers looked fairly flat on all these loads but I think it's the primers. Those were all with standard Winchester small rifle primers and lake city brass. I have some new starline brass and remington 7 1/2 primers to try. The 80 eld was moving at 2750 fps from a 24" barrel.
Curious if anyone has an experience with AR comp/Berger 80.5 FB and OAL 2.5” 0.80” freebore. Curious what speed you’re getting and how much powder?
Thanks!
Thanks!
I was running Rem 7 1/2 back then. Now I'm running CCI 450s on my 223
Starline 223 brass is actually quite good.
If my old notes are correct, I was getting 2775 FPS on a 100F day. 22.5in Bartlein barrel
On my brand new 26in IBI barrel, I shot some of my old loads and I'm clocking 2875 FPS out of the XBR 23.5 with 77gr Scenar-L and 2885 FPS out of the 24.5gr Varget with 80 ELD-M, definitely a fast barrel.
My barrel is a 24" bartlein. I have just under 100 rounds through it so it may speed up a touch. I might have to find some varget to try, seems much more available right now than 8208.
Had some pretty good results with Lapua scenar 77s in my first few tests. I haven’t had good luck reloading for gas guns and had my first sub 10 sd and sub moa 10 shot group with the Lapua scenars and 24.0 ramshot tac. In new Norma brass with federal gmm 205 AR primers. Average MV was 2626. With 9.5sd and 32.9es. This is also the first time I’ve gotten anything loaded with ball powder sub 10 sd.
I did similar load work ups with S&B brass and had horrible results. Like 3-4” groups. Going to just give up on S&B brass. Tried federal 7 1/2s just as a check instead of fed 205 gmm primers but no change. My noveske seems to really the the s&b ammo, but for whatever reason the brass has me losing my mind. I’ll keep it for putting pulled m193 projectiles into lol.
I did similar load work ups with S&B brass and had horrible results. Like 3-4” groups. Going to just give up on S&B brass. Tried federal 7 1/2s just as a check instead of fed 205 gmm primers but no change. My noveske seems to really the the s&b ammo, but for whatever reason the brass has me losing my mind. I’ll keep it for putting pulled m193 projectiles into lol.
Why would you buy new brass for an ar load?
Might as well shoot factory ammo .
New brass is sloppy, doesn't fit your chamber or anyone else's.
I want brass that needs sized to my specs ie - 0.002 bump and - 0.002 neck tension.
Have you measured the new brass? Last batch I got was between 0.005 and 0.007 thousands under.
Why waste an entire loading cycle worth of time, components and wear on your gun for an inferior round that will have to be adjusted all over again once fire formed.
Might as well shoot factory ammo .
New brass is sloppy, doesn't fit your chamber or anyone else's.
I want brass that needs sized to my specs ie - 0.002 bump and - 0.002 neck tension.
Have you measured the new brass? Last batch I got was between 0.005 and 0.007 thousands under.
Why waste an entire loading cycle worth of time, components and wear on your gun for an inferior round that will have to be adjusted all over again once fire formed.
Because I can. I didn’t buy new brass just for an AR load. I have several thousands of Norma and Lapua .223 brass so using a few dozen to shoot on a relaxing Saturday is always a good idea. This is just for fun, it’s not a job and if it was I’d probably do the same thing, mostly because I can do whatever I want with my stuff and don’t really care what anyone thinks. This is for fairly large PRS targets, not for rifle dart type stuff.
I have never seen consistent, meaningful changes in once fired brass other than lower SDs with the same load. Sub moa 10 shot groups in a gas gun with 5k+ rounds on it with sub 10 sd using $210 per jug ball powder and my biggest risk was potentially lowering my SDs? I’ll take that chance. Also not really sure why you’d think the neck tension or shoulder bump would be much different. A bushing die + mandrel on new brass still works and is easily measured. Also not sure where you’re getting brass that is that inconsistent in length. The Norma brass is so consistent in h2o measurement, neck wall thickness, weight and length it’s pretty impressive. I have seen maybe 5 out of 500 that were around .005 short, never seen any longer. Using fantastic mituyoto dial calipers.
Also, again, this is just for fun! I love shooting matches and the goal is just to get as many trigger pulls as possible. The minute I feel like any part of it is a “waste” and start thinking of things with the kind of negativity you’ve brought I’d probably find a different hobby. Mostly mixed in some new brass because I’ve had issues with the s&b brass specifically and wanted to troubleshoot. I also shot once fired IMI brass, once fired year sorted lake city brass, and some Winchester brass today. It was a wonderful day.
Your the one with complaints about results.
I tell you fire formed brass is better and it doesn't necisary have to come from your gun so long as it has been blown out enough to be sized to your chamber .
I'm not talking about case lenght.
If you can't shoot the difference why bother reloading?
Look up troubleshooting, have fun in the meantime! You mentioned new brass case length. Seems like you’re off your meds grandpa please don’t miss a day again you got even grumpier than you normally are last time.
That's funny, I am out of blood pressure meds. Good lick.
No case length (1.75) is generally not a huge determining factor as long as it doesn't effect my slight crimp. I was talking about shoulder dimension (1.4635 + /- 0.0005) in my guns.
I typically run 1.460 -1.461 shoulders for all. that's not super tight an allows for plenty of dirty chambers. I have ran 1.462 but have to keep the chambers clean in cold weather especially if running a can.
So the first factory load I could find is 1.4570.
That's an extra 0.003 thousands slop I dont need at the shoulder and I didn't measure the diameter slop iether.
This is typical of factory brass loaded or not.
The results of the pride and care you put into your reloading will show up better if you use fire formed brass. I think you could see a lot more sub moa days that way.
Got's to go score some steroids, later.
No case length (1.75) is generally not a huge determining factor as long as it doesn't effect my slight crimp. I was talking about shoulder dimension (1.4635 + /- 0.0005) in my guns.
I typically run 1.460 -1.461 shoulders for all. that's not super tight an allows for plenty of dirty chambers. I have ran 1.462 but have to keep the chambers clean in cold weather especially if running a can.
So the first factory load I could find is 1.4570.
That's an extra 0.003 thousands slop I dont need at the shoulder and I didn't measure the diameter slop iether.
This is typical of factory brass loaded or not.
The results of the pride and care you put into your reloading will show up better if you use fire formed brass. I think you could see a lot more sub moa days that way.
Got's to go score some steroids, later.
Is that fired in an AR chamber? Might have missed it in a previous post. My fired shoulders measure 1.458" in a wylde chamber with the hornady tool. I remember some brass fired in ARs measured closer to your numbers. With a standard lee full length sizing die I can set it up per instructions and it is right about a .002" bump. Just curious really.
Yes sir, fired in my ar's.
80% of range brass falls right in there as well.
Take a wild guess what a standard go gauge is.
The fact that our chambers fired brass measurements don't line up better is not a big thing at all.
The Hornady tool is listed a comparator, not a gauge.
They may not match each other.
But the intent to check your brass from your chamber and load to it, less bump measuring with the same tool works regardless of actual measurement.
Also some manufacturers run tighter chambers (or bolts) so factory rounds will fit better
gaining accuracy ( like they did some magical thing lol) and their perceived status as being special.
Here is a hint, I HATE PROPRIATARY SHIT.
I'm guessing your gun shoots factory ammo way better than any of mine.
One of the five I load for was headspaced like yours and did shoot factory ammo the best of the lot.
I put in a different bolt to get it to match the others so I have only one case prep.
If only shooting in one gun the 0.002 bump is what I would use and keep it clean.
In case of emergency on a two way I need any ammo I have crammed into any one of my guns to run hot cold dirty or clean.
80% of range brass falls right in there as well.
Take a wild guess what a standard go gauge is.
The fact that our chambers fired brass measurements don't line up better is not a big thing at all.
The Hornady tool is listed a comparator, not a gauge.
They may not match each other.
But the intent to check your brass from your chamber and load to it, less bump measuring with the same tool works regardless of actual measurement.
Also some manufacturers run tighter chambers (or bolts) so factory rounds will fit better
gaining accuracy ( like they did some magical thing lol) and their perceived status as being special.
Here is a hint, I HATE PROPRIATARY SHIT.
I'm guessing your gun shoots factory ammo way better than any of mine.
One of the five I load for was headspaced like yours and did shoot factory ammo the best of the lot.
I put in a different bolt to get it to match the others so I have only one case prep.
If only shooting in one gun the 0.002 bump is what I would use and keep it clean.
In case of emergency on a two way I need any ammo I have crammed into any one of my guns to run hot cold dirty or clean.
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Well I got around to shooting the Berger 55g FB Targets through my 1-7T 28" barrel.
Not great, but they didn't keyhole either.
Only did 4 different charge weights (2 groups of 5, 40 rounds total) all seated twenty thousand off the lands. Perhaps I should have seated them at touch, but man that doesn't leave much projectile as far as eating depth goes.
SD's were my typical low teen numbers. Try as I might single digit escapes me on caliber 223.
Not great, but they didn't keyhole either.
Only did 4 different charge weights (2 groups of 5, 40 rounds total) all seated twenty thousand off the lands. Perhaps I should have seated them at touch, but man that doesn't leave much projectile as far as eating depth goes.
SD's were my typical low teen numbers. Try as I might single digit escapes me on caliber 223.
I don't think so. It was mid 40s day of testing. It's a "bull" contour.
If I had a proper 14T I would be disappointed.
I'll check my numbers and IF I can jam, I'll give that a shot.
Might be a couple of weeks though. Turning a bit cold 4 my likes.
I would pick one of those charges and start playing with seating depthWell I got around to shooting the Berger 55g FB Targets through my 1-7T 28" barrel.
Not great, but they didn't keyhole either.
Only did 4 different charge weights (2 groups of 5, 40 rounds total) all seated twenty thousand off the lands. Perhaps I should have seated them at touch, but man that doesn't leave much projectile as far as eating depth goes.
SD's were my typical low teen numbers. Try as I might single digit escapes me on caliber 223.
View attachment 8312412
Seating.
I don't like the idea of touch for an ar. It has not worked well for me.
Remind me what powder?
In 3g increments I usualy have scatter, string up then down (or reverse) then tighten, good and rince swish repeat till pressure / scatter.
I don't like the idea of touch for an ar. It has not worked well for me.
Remind me what powder?
In 3g increments I usualy have scatter, string up then down (or reverse) then tighten, good and rince swish repeat till pressure / scatter.
Ya I here you on the cold / cold fronts.
Shooting was put off again today due to swollen hands and painful back.
I could clear a doorway maybe smack a 100 yard silloet but hurt too hard to concentrate on good shots.
Have a libtard doctor that thinks strong aspirin should do the deed. Got to get rid of that bitch asap. I'm dying.
Had to get the wife to drive me today to the store.
What a drag it is getting old.
Shooting was put off again today due to swollen hands and painful back.
I could clear a doorway maybe smack a 100 yard silloet but hurt too hard to concentrate on good shots.
Have a libtard doctor that thinks strong aspirin should do the deed. Got to get rid of that bitch asap. I'm dying.
Had to get the wife to drive me today to the store.
What a drag it is getting old.
So... on the subject of seating depth. It looks like GRT, myself or a combination made a error. I'm loading below the minimum depth of .224.
Well below it
So.. looks like I'm back to square 1, kinda sorta...
You can use a stability calculator like the one from Berger or JBM to factor in atmospheric pressure. The lower your altitude and temperature, the denser the air is, and the more gyroscopic stability is needed. Berger's calculator will also show how much a lower Sg compromises the bullet's BC. For JBM's calculator you'll need to use an atmospheric pressure calculator to determine the pressure in mmHg
Twist Rate Stability Calculator
Our newly updated Twist Rate Stability Calculator not only tells you what your SG is, but it also lets you know if you are reaching your optimized BC.
bergerbullets.com
JBM - Calculations - Stability
www.jbmballistics.com
Air Pressure at Altitude Calculator
If you ever wondered what is the atmospheric pressure high up in the mountains, our air pressure at altitude calculator is there to help you.
www.omnicalculator.com
Bottom line is sea-level in Alaska in winter could result in unstable bullets even when the simpler rules of thumb suggest the twist rate is fine. At high-altitude in the Rockies in late summer the longer bullets can be used with lower than normally recommended twist rates.
I live at 5000 feet and it makes a difference of about 1 inch of twist rate in a chart like that.
What barrel length?
That seems awful fast for a vanilla 223.
H4895 also isn't the typical powder for such heavy projectiles.
Tried some 88 ELD'S and N150 today... made me look good 
26" proof with whatever reamer proof uses in their prefits. COAL length to lands is around 2.518ish, these are jumping .030-.035. Charge weights above 23.25 grains were compressing enough to grow COAL.
26" proof with whatever reamer proof uses in their prefits. COAL length to lands is around 2.518ish, these are jumping .030-.035. Charge weights above 23.25 grains were compressing enough to grow COAL.
@Niles Coyote
Anyway you can split 23.0 and 23.25 loads?
23.5 and above are pure scatter mode, cfe223 does that right above the best node also.
What scale are you using that drops in 0.25g increments or is that just your preference?
I ask because if 23.25 is that close to heavy compression a 100 degree day may get you back to scatter since no headroom for powder left.
I get away with a little compression with varget but there is a lot of space inside.
The 23.75 has a substandard (for you) load on both sides of it so to me it's out.
Nice shooting by the way.
Anyway you can split 23.0 and 23.25 loads?
23.5 and above are pure scatter mode, cfe223 does that right above the best node also.
What scale are you using that drops in 0.25g increments or is that just your preference?
I ask because if 23.25 is that close to heavy compression a 100 degree day may get you back to scatter since no headroom for powder left.
I get away with a little compression with varget but there is a lot of space inside.
The 23.75 has a substandard (for you) load on both sides of it so to me it's out.
Nice shooting by the way.
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Ya I guess with that scale I would do 0.25 ladder tests as well.
All I can get is 0.1gr resolution.
I'm not sure I can shoot 0.05 increments but it would be nice to try.
0.02 is crazy, how much does one " stick" of varget weigh? Lol
All I can get is 0.1gr resolution.
I'm not sure I can shoot 0.05 increments but it would be nice to try.
0.02 is crazy, how much does one " stick" of varget weigh? Lol
Somewhere around .02 or a little under depending how it got cut. The scale only reads to .02 but if I set the Autotickler on say 23.24 I'll get more drops at 23.22 and 23.26 than if I set it on an odd number... setting the Autotickler on an odd number usually will get me either 23.24 or 23.26 which is close enough for my purposes here.
Long time lurker in reloading, first batch of ammo Ive made
Been getting components for about 6 months now and I finally sat down and tried my hand.
Thanks to a few fellas who took the time to walk me through stuff in person and on the phone I’m off the a good start
These are my 223 loads im gonna be testing:
Starline Brass
CCI 450M SRP
Hornady 75 ELD
Varget
Starting at 21.5 Grains and worked up to 23.9 (being a little conservative for my first go at this)
Been getting components for about 6 months now and I finally sat down and tried my hand.
Thanks to a few fellas who took the time to walk me through stuff in person and on the phone I’m off the a good start
These are my 223 loads im gonna be testing:
Starline Brass
CCI 450M SRP
Hornady 75 ELD
Varget
Starting at 21.5 Grains and worked up to 23.9 (being a little conservative for my first go at this)
Just in case you ever wondered how 77gr IMI Razorcore ammo shot from a 737 impact action and a 26" proof prefit barrel... the shot that went wide was probably my grip pressure and technique.
23gr of n150 ( not 32) and 88 eld's are still preforming well.
That right flier below was 100% influenced by finger placement on the grip.
23gr of n150 ( not 32
) and 88 eld's are still preforming well. That right flier below was 100% influenced by finger placement on the grip.
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It's just what I had on hand and with as many buddies as I have using it in cartridges that you can also use varget in, I figured I would give it a try. I am sure you could get higher velocity with n140 as I am starting to compress the powder with a few tenths more.
