300 Norma Mag

[TylerN]

Tested jumps with the Berger 220 LRHT today, everything from .030" to .080" shot great with consistent POI. The one flyer at 0.050" was my mistake, I think that would shoot like 60 and 40 if I did my part.

I think I'll go with 0.070" although 0.030" would be a safer pick for the full like of the barrel.

 

[Blkbird6]

70 is literally the last depth that shoots well, why would you select that when the groups all blow open from 80?

The POI’s are all basically identical from 30-70, and all groups shot good. I would choose 30, so that the throat can erode another 0.50 before accuracy becomes an issue.

 

[TylerN]

70 is literally the last depth that shoots well, why would you select that when the groups all blow open from 80?

The POI’s are all basically identical from 30-70, and all groups shot good. I would choose 30, so that the throat can erode another 0.50 before accuracy becomes an issue.

You're right, I was intoxicated by a tiny group at 0.070" and wasn't thinking clearly. I'm going with 0.030", final answer.

 

[Blkbird6]

strangely, im back on this thread again (please forgive me ) - has anybody ever shot the 225 ELDM at a 2 mile target before? for many reasons, im forced to shoot this bullet in a 2 mile event.

running a 30" 1:8 barrel, at about at about 3140. according to my ballistic solver I have enough dial in the scope elevation + base + adjustable mount, but I am just wondering about the bullet itself?

the main event is from 800-2200m, where I have shot the 225eldm very successfully before, so im not worried about the use of this bullet... but there's a 2 mile target where we will be taking 7 shots at.

it will be my first 2 mile engagement. I would appreciate any feedback on this... and if there is none, then I will reply at the end of this month with a detailed update so the next person can get their info

 

[Dogtown]

It’s going to be plenty subsonic by then and that lower velocity plus low mass bullet means spotting splash will be extremely difficult. One of the reasons for the popularly of .375 and .416 cal bullets in these competitions isn’t just momentum, it’s being able to spot splash.

 

[Geno C.]

Even the 338s struggle to see stuff at 2 miles+

 

[Blkbird6]

Abs

It’s going to be plenty subsonic by then and that lower velocity plus low mass bullet means spotting splash will be extremely difficult. One of the reasons for the popularly of .375 and .416 cal bullets in these competitions isn’t just momentum, it’s being able to spot splash.

Absolutely. According to my solver it should be running at just around 900 fps.

The slowest bullet speed (at target) that I’ve got to with this bullet is around 1125 fps (2200m) - the misses were easy for me and the spotter to see, and there was an incredible amount of consistency in my adjustments at that distance. It was very surprising.

2 miles is just about 1000m further, and the bullet would have bled off 25% more speed. So will be interested to see how the bullet performs at that extended distance, and if we can see the misses. Fortunately it’s very sandy and not shooting into grass. So there’s hope.

I’ll share my notes after the shoot.

 

[nick338]

Quick neck tension experiment at 600 yards.

Started with my current load:

245 Berger EOL
87.0 grs N570
2.775" CBO
.090 Off the lands
Federal 215M all seated .006 below flush
3rd firing on Lapua brass
Avg MV-2960 fps
Forster custom honed die with decapper removed
Used .305, .306, .307 mandrel to set final neck tension

1 sighter

Groups shot round robin to eliminate variables

Upper left .001 neck tension
Center group .002 neck tension
Upper right .003 neck tension

Obviously irrelevant from a statistical standpoint but just a fun experiment tweaking a load.

 

[Geno C.]

Try even higher. I’ve got a couple rifles that really tighten up at .005

 

[nick338]

Try even higher. I’ve got a couple rifles that really tighten up at .005

I wanted to but I would have to change sizing dies to do that because my Forster doesn't squeeze the neck down enough. Anything smaller than a .305 mandrel doesn't contact the inside of the neck after sizing.

And if it continues to shoot even close to that at distance I wouldn't want to change anything anyway.

 

[Dogtown]

Confirming load for new 30” 1.25OD 1:8 Bartlein barrel in DT M2

250 A-Tip
Lapua Brass
GM215M
88.9gr N570
3.793” COAL
0.003” off lands
3073 fps

 

[nick338]

Wow that's up there. No pressure? I was at 87.5 with the 250 A-tip and roughly 3050 with a 26". Gotta love N570 in the Norma. I no longer have any use for anything under a 245 gr after seeing what's possible with the heavies.

 

[Dogtown]

No pressure signs in this load, but it’s close. When I did my initial pressure ladder with N570 I started seeing flattening primers at 89gr and then ejector swipe at 90gr. My aim was to get the 250s up to 3000fps so this is better than expected and should be a good 2500 yard load. N170 is a bit easier on barrels but runs 100-150fps slower so that may be something to test out too.

 

[nick338]

For sure. Hopefully I'll be getting out to 2K and 2350 this season with the 245's.

 

[Blkbird6]

Abs

Absolutely. According to my solver it should be running at just around 900 fps.

The slowest bullet speed (at target) that I’ve got to with this bullet is around 1125 fps (2200m) - the misses were easy for me and the spotter to see, and there was an incredible amount of consistency in my adjustments at that distance. It was very surprising.

2 miles is just about 1000m further, and the bullet would have bled off 25% more speed. So will be interested to see how the bullet performs at that extended distance, and if we can see the misses. Fortunately it’s very sandy and not shooting into grass. So there’s hope.

I’ll share my notes after the shoot.

Just an update on this..

This past weekend I shot a 2 mile event while using the 225 eldm (due to having to re-chamber my rifle just before the shoot, I didn’t have a long enough free bore to take 250 atips or some monos)

Shooting distances from 900m (roughly 1000 yds) to 2300m (2600yds) the bullet performed amazingly well, in some cases with a 17mph full value wind. I would absolutely use the round in a similar comp again.

We also shot 7 shots at a 2 mile target in 25mph (almost) full value wind. My calc told me that the Bullets would slow down to just under 900fps at the target.

The 225 eldm is a little light for this use obviously, but I noted really good consistency between adjustments (bullet flew true to my adjustments). I also noted that the Bullets didn’t tend to fall out of the sky.

It took me 3 shots to get on target, and the last 4 were dancing around the target. wind of that speed was always going to be a factor that was going to be hit or miss, but I was happy with my performance.

I was running a stability factor of about 2.1 SG which was very high. No doubt the stability helped in the subsonic zone.

The take away is, I would rather use a 250 atip for the 2 mile, but I would not withdraw from a 2 mile event if I was forced to shoot the 225 eldm. If ever anybody is presented with this, I absolutely say you should still give the 2 mile a go.

E

 

[nick338]

Ran into a problem over the weekend. My ES and SD went to shit, like 35 and 16 fps respectively with 2X fired brass. Tried loading up some virgin cases and back down to 18 and 8 fps but still not good, where typically the ES was 10fps or less. Ran those same 5 cases after cleaning through the sizer and shot again, right back up to 35 and 16 fps.

Started measuring cases and I'm getting .010 of headspace growth from a virgin case and I'm losing .010 off the length of the neck with each firing. New Lapua neck measures around .306 and mine are around .286 after the 2nd firing.

Barrel has about 450 rds on it.

Anyone else seeing issues with cases like this?

Load is:

87.0 grs N570
215M primer
Lapua brass
245 Berger

 

[Balor]

Ran into a problem over the weekend. My ES and SD went to shit, like 35 and 16 fps respectively with 2X fired brass. Tried loading up some virgin cases and back down to 18 and 8 fps but still not good, where typically the ES was 10fps or less. Ran those same 5 cases after cleaning through the sizer and shot again, right back up to 35 and 16 fps.

Started measuring cases and I'm getting .010 of headspace growth from a virgin case and I'm losing .010 off the length of the neck with each firing. New Lapua neck measures around .306 and mine are around .286 after the 2nd firing.

Barrel has about 450 rds on it.

Anyone else seeing issues with cases like this?

Load is:

87.0 grs N570
215M primer
Lapua brass
245 Berger

Time to anneal your brass.

 

[nick338]

Time to anneal your brass.

The cases were annealed twice. I'm more concerned if the headspace growth is normal and why the neck is shortening so much.

 

[Bacarrat]

So is it 2.306 new? and shorting down to 2.286 when fired? That would be really odd. My new Lapua brass measures at 2.487 fired and 2.485 new.
If I measured using a SAC comparator tool, fired 1.973 and new is 1.960.

 

[Dogtown]

The only time I've ever seen length shrink is when fireforming a wildcat with a steeper shoulder angle (ie from .338LM to .338LM Improved). Assuming you're shooting a vanilla .300NM and not a .300NM Improved, what you're seeing is odd to me.

 

[nick338]

So is it 2.306 new? and shorting down to 2.286 when fired? That would be really odd. My new Lapua brass measures at 2.487 fired and 2.485 new.
If I measured using a SAC comparator tool, fired 1.973 and new is 1.960.

I have 2 measurements here.

Headspace measured with Hornady comparator on my 2X fired case is .010 longer than a virgin case. That seems like a lot.

A virgin case neck length is .306
After 2 firings the neck length has shortened to .286. You can visibly see how much shorter the neck is if the 2 cases are sitting side by side.

 

[BCX]

Have your headspace cked! I bet this is your issue. Is your barrel still torqued? Ck your bolt lugs for setback also. You’re at 450 rounds and this is something new?

As stated above, I lose OAL w improved cartridges at first firing but after that my improved 40 degree shoulders never grow. I hate brass trimming

 

[nick338]

For reference:

Far left is a virgin case-neck length .306

Middle case is 2X fired and sized, shoulder bumped back .002-neck length .286

Far right is 3X fired, not sized-neck length .276

 

[otnot]

It took my brass 3 firings to settle down after fire forming for my 35 degree shoulder.

 

[LakuNoc]

For sure. Hopefully I'll be getting out to 2K and 2350 this season with the 245's.

You will be going out pass 2k this year Nick for sure.

 

[nick338]

You will be going out pass 2k this year Nick for sure.

Lol, not with an ES of 35fps. If I get that sorted out I'll be in business. What makes you so optimistic?

 

[BCX]

Thats ok Nick, i will load some extra 33XC rounds, get you out to 2300-2450 yards

 

[BCX]

Lol, not with an ES of 35fps. If I get that sorted out I'll be in business. What makes you so optimistic?

I would just use new brass, I think a sizing die will be moving way to much brass.

 

[nick338]

Thats ok Nick, i will load some extra 33XC rounds, get you out to 2300-2450 yards

I'd rather shoot my M1A

 

[schmi015]

Can someone run quickload with reloader 26 and 220 bergers, 28in barrel and 215 fed primer, air temp of 85 degrees altitude of 1 mile? Curious what it shows....

 

[Dogtown]

RL26 looks way too fast for .300NM

EDIT: Ok, I thought that didn't make sense, so then I looked it up in a Burn Rate Chart and now I'm convinced QL is off.

 

[schmi015]

View attachment 8154391

RL26 looks way too fast for .300NM

EDIT: Ok, I thought that didn't make sense, so then I looked it up in a Burn Rate Chart and now I'm convinced QL is off.

Thanks that's very interesting I loaded some 220’s at 80 grains and 208’s at 82 grains with ADG brass and shot this for groups. Didn’t have my chrono set up. Top tgt dark brown barrel and bottom target is the light barrel, same spec’s and chambered sequentially for an mrad. Testing loads to see how similar they grouped. I had a previous load using lapua brass and 82 grains that clocked in at 3130 with 208's.

Edit, chrono data for the two barrels was very consistent with 10 rounds each producing avg of (2977 sd 11.1) (2979fps sd 7.4) with 80 grains re26 with a berger 220 lrht. groups were excellent.

 

[Patrice Dauffer]

Try to run a bullet in your fired case if it stop on shoulder junction you have a donut .

 

[Jackomason]

Getting ready to order a reamer. What kind of FB would you use for 230-250gr bullets? I'd like to use CIP mags so if I need to stick with 230's that's fine. (Standard 300 norma mag)

Also would anyone know where to buy a reamer with the appropriate freebore? I'd like manson but didn't see the specs posted.

 

[Geno C.]

This works great with 245s and 250s

 

[Jackomason]

I appreciate the reamer print!

Are the 245-250's significantly better in a dedicated ELR barrel? Or does it pigeon hole you into limited components that give marginal preformance?

 

[nick338]

I appreciate the reamer print!

Are the 245-250's significantly better in a dedicated ELR barrel? Or does it pigeon hole you into limited components that give marginal preformance?

If you don't have an 8.5 twist or faster don't bother with the heavies. If you do they are well worth it to shoot out to 2k. Beyond that I would probably want a 338 or larger. Inside a mile, I would take a 300 Norma with the 245 Berger over any other combination. But everyone has their opinion of what works and what doesn't so don't get too caught up in the noise.

 

[Jackomason]

Still need to pick a barrel and a reamer. One benefit I have is altitude, a lot of it.

My plan is a 30+ barrel (probably as long as I can keep it) so that may help too. I just spoke with a guy at mile high who was saying that the 250's are THE way to go. So I guess I'll go faster than 1:9.

 

[nick338]

Still need to pick a barrel and a reamer. One benefit I have is altitude, a lot of it.

My plan is a 30+ barrel (probably as long as I can keep it) so that may help too. I just spoke with a guy at mile high who was saying that the 250's are THE way to go. So I guess I'll go faster than 1:9.

Depends on what that means. If you want the highest BC, the 250's are tops. If you want consistent BC the 245 Bergers are the winner by a small margin. Either way go faster than a 1-9 because if there's a chance you won't shoot the rifle at your current elevation you could run into stability issues.

 

[Dogtown]

In my experience 1:8 shoots anything over 200gr just fine, so I suggest that as a default twist. With regard to longer throats for 250s, if it's any consolation I've got a barrel from SAC that was specifically throated for 250s. I can seat them right up to the lands, but any attempt to seat 220 LRHTs that close fail and I have to jump them quite a bit. Still, this barrel shoots the jumping 220s exceptionally well*

* there's a chance that this is a one-off anomaly as this is by far the most accurate magnum barrel I've ever owned.

 

[Patrice Dauffer]

I use a CIP reamer from ptg and it is perfect for 225 eldm, 230 and 250 atip .

 

[4O6shootist]

My 300nm imp chamber has 225k freebore and with 230 Bergers seated 30k jump they're right at neck shoulder junction. Anything heavier, or non Berger, is seated well below neck. For deeicated 245/250gr bullets, I'd suggest somewhere around 275k freebore.

 

[eod_tek]

Scoured this page and the reloading page and didn't see anybody running 245 EOLs with N565. I know Litz ran that combo (pointed 245s) at the NF a few years ago, just wondering if anybody else has had success with the combo?
After burning a barrel up in 650 rounds with N570, I picked up a keg of N565 to try

 

[4O6shootist]

Scoured this page and the reloading page and didn't see anybody running 245 EOLs with N565. I know Litz ran that combo (pointed 245s) at the NF a few years ago, just wondering if anybody else has had success with the combo?
After burning a barrel up in 650 rounds with N570, I picked up a keg of N565 to try

Man my 300n improved running shit hot with N570 lasted almost 1k. Thats worse than a 28 nosler. My new 300nmi barrel is gonna see H1000 or Retumbo only I think.

 

[eod_tek]

Man my 300n improved running shit hot with N570 lasted almost 1k. Thats worse than a 28 nosler. My new 300nmi barrel is gonna see H1000 or Retumbo only I think.

Yeah, it's definitely rough on the barrel life. Long story short I'm actually going to run two barrels with this rifle, one for matches and one for hunting. I have the 245s and I'd love to run them for hunting, and I don't necessarily need a ton of velocity to be effective out to some real respectable ranges, and then I'll run n570 for matches if I want to pick up more of that velocity.

I have a respectable amount of 215 hybrids, 225 ELDMs, and a couple hundred 245s and plenty of n565 and and 570 so I can always run the 225s or the 215s with the 565 to save barrel life as well, I just love how well those 245s cut the wind.

 

[Garvey]

1:8 Bartlein
MTU @ 30"
Fat Bastard brake
Lapua virgin
Fed 215-M
IMR-8133
Hornady 250 gr A-tip

I will just say, above 85.0 gr, is where it shot.

New barrel making 2980 fps.

It almost has 100 rounds down it. And I have not checked velocity lately.

Ladder test at 700 yards.

Successful CBS at 1444 yards.
Second, third, and fourth round hits at 1760 yards.

Second, third and fourth round hits at 2180 yards.

 

[Dogtown]

Scoured this page and the reloading page and didn't see anybody running 245 EOLs with N565. I know Litz ran that combo (pointed 245s) at the NF a few years ago, just wondering if anybody else has had success with the combo?
After burning a barrel up in 650 rounds with N570, I picked up a keg of N565 to try

N565 isn't going to save your throat much compared to N570. You need to reduce the heat, so use N170 or N165. You'll lose 100-150fps but get potentially longer barrel life because it's single-based and generates less heat at the throat.

Here's what QL says about that combo.

Personally, I think N565 is too fast for the heavies in .300NM. It's better suited for the 200-220gr range of bullets.

 

[eod_tek]

N565 isn't going to save your throat much compared to N570. You need to reduce the heat, so use N170 or N165. You'll lose 100-150fps but get potentially longer barrel life because it's single-based and generates less heat at the throat.

View attachment 8172868
Here's what QL says about that combo.

Personally, I think N565 is too fast for the heavies in .300NM. It's better suited for the 200-220gr range of bullets.

Thank you for running the quick load! I really want to get the software and learn to use it. I really like data, and especially looking at case fill percentages for certain loads
I definitely agree that they're both nitro powders and I may not get a ton more life, but even a few hundred rounds would be nice. I have been seeing Retumbo suddenly showing up, and if I hadn't just spent a ton of $ on 570 and 565 I'd be buying some of it too.
I do have 215s I could run the 565 with, I just love the wind benefit of the 245s.

 

[Dogtown]

N570 is just such a perfectly optimized powder for the .300NM, in most cases I’d just say use it and treat barrels as consumables. With this and long .338LM Improved barrels I tend now to order barrels as pairs. Yeah, it hurts $$$ but then I rarely feel bad burning a barrel out with high performance loads.

All that being said, I recently got a new .300NM barrel from SAC that is so damned consistent and tolerant that it’s easily the best magnum barrel I’ve owned so far. And for that reason, I actually dialed the 250 A-Tips loads back with N170, hoping to extend the life of this seemingly unicorn barrel.

 

[nick338]

N570 is just such a perfectly optimized powder for the .300NM, in most cases I’d just say use it and treat barrels as consumables. With this and long .338LM Improved barrels I tend now to order barrels as pairs. Yeah, it hurts $$$ but then I rarely feel bad burning a barrel out with high performance loads.

All that being said, I recently got a new .300NM barrel from SAC that is so damned consistent and tolerant that it’s easily the best magnum barrel I’ve owned so far. And for that reason, I actually dialed the 250 A-Tips loads back with N170, hoping to extend the life of this seemingly unicorn barrel.

What blank did they use?