If you are in the heavy end of that range would use N570. N565 would be better in the lower end of those bullet weights or even lighter. N570 is an excellent powder that is pretty temp stable and gives max velocity but you will pay with barrel life.
Would anyone have a recommendation for a min-max load for 300NM with VV N565, Lapua brass and Hornady ELD-M 225gr? Will be shooting these in an Accuracy International AXMC with 28" Bartlein barrel.
The VV loads (with the very strange small COL) confuse me and I did not see any postings yet on N565.
Was maybe thinking between 82-94gr N565 for standard COL of 3.680"?
The VV loads (with the very strange small COL) confuse me and I did not see any postings yet on N565.
Was maybe thinking between 82-94gr N565 for standard COL of 3.680"?
Excellent! Thanks
I also have send VV a mail about their recommended load. Will report back if they come back to me.
Bit of a noob question here;
As I don't have access to long range ranges close, I actually will be shooting real ELR only a few times a year (and there is plenty of info in this and other threats that have appropriate loads for long range). However still In want to shoot the 300NM now and then but will be shooting at 100 & 300 meters. For those ranges there is no need to push the limits.....
What has the most positive impact in barrel life? Using light bullets or light loads? Any suggestions for load combinations for these short ranges that maximise barrel life would be appreciated.
As I don't have access to long range ranges close, I actually will be shooting real ELR only a few times a year (and there is plenty of info in this and other threats that have appropriate loads for long range). However still In want to shoot the 300NM now and then but will be shooting at 100 & 300 meters. For those ranges there is no need to push the limits.....
What has the most positive impact in barrel life? Using light bullets or light loads? Any suggestions for load combinations for these short ranges that maximise barrel life would be appreciated.
Heat plays a big factor in throat erosion, so hotter loads theoretically will reduce your barrel life. However, some cartridges are more overbore than others, so they are going to erode the throat faster than less overbore cartridges, and .300NM is a bit more of the former (though not overbore like a .243Win). I don't think shooting lighter bullets will help prolong barrel life the way shooting lighter loads might, but then again what's the point? You have to start thinking about barrels as consumables, something that you will wear out and replace down the road, the frequency of which depends almost entirely on how often you shoot it.
In your situation, I'd use those shorter ranges for developing a good load for your .300NM, then enjoy it when you can stretch its legs a few times a year. And when you can't, shoot a short-action cartridge like a 6.5 variant? You've got an AXMC, so just swap the barrel and bolt face and be done.
Edit to add: also, understand that in many cases a worn out throat can be remedied by re-cutting the chamber and setting the barrel back an inch or so.
In your situation, I'd use those shorter ranges for developing a good load for your .300NM, then enjoy it when you can stretch its legs a few times a year. And when you can't, shoot a short-action cartridge like a 6.5 variant? You've got an AXMC, so just swap the barrel and bolt face and be done.
Edit to add: also, understand that in many cases a worn out throat can be remedied by re-cutting the chamber and setting the barrel back an inch or so.
Thanks. Good input. What I'm reading is that there is no load combi that will significantly extend barrel life. If that indeed is the case I better just use the time on the short range with the 300nm to develop loads for the long range.
I also have a 6.5 creedmoor and a .308 barrel so will use these mainly on the shorter ranges.
I also have a 6.5 creedmoor and a .308 barrel so will use these mainly on the shorter ranges.
Extremely helpful! Been looking for exactly this data for my 8 twist. Now I have a starting point. Have you made any more progress in your testing? 2900 fps with a 250 sure is hummin. Have heard from 1 other that the ATIP likes the same jump as an ELDM: .015-.020". Seems yours may be in the same boat?
Took my 300 norma out today ... tried a group test... did not go so well, i started at 83 gr and worked up to 86.5 and the speeds were awesome but groups were pretty crappy... so I figure ill work a few more out and see if I can get it better......
Attachments
Second 250gr ATip test:
15 rounds 82.0gr H1000, once fired Lapua brass, Ogive 2.690", C.O.A.L 3.700", Fed 215M, .005" jump
57F, DA5600, Humidity 35%, Alt 4644'
26" Bartlein 9" twist with ultra 9 suppressor. My earlier ladder test was unsuppressed to check bullet stability with the 9" twist rate.
2891
2843
2876
2853
2851
2835
2873
2874
2870
2874
2869
2891
2873
2871
2871
I put 3 rounds on steel at 1030 yds with 6.4 mils elevation. It was within my last 3-4 shots (2891-2871fps) which did seem consistent on the plate.
AVG 2867
SD 15.8
ES 56
I think these bullets would like more jump but .005" is where I just ended up trying keep the bullet out of the powder and still jumping. I jump Berger 230s .020" with H1000 and it gets single digits SD routinely. I'll probably wait to experiment further until I can actually buy more H1000.
15 rounds 82.0gr H1000, once fired Lapua brass, Ogive 2.690", C.O.A.L 3.700", Fed 215M, .005" jump
57F, DA5600, Humidity 35%, Alt 4644'
26" Bartlein 9" twist with ultra 9 suppressor. My earlier ladder test was unsuppressed to check bullet stability with the 9" twist rate.
2891
2843
2876
2853
2851
2835
2873
2874
2870
2874
2869
2891
2873
2871
2871
I put 3 rounds on steel at 1030 yds with 6.4 mils elevation. It was within my last 3-4 shots (2891-2871fps) which did seem consistent on the plate.
AVG 2867
SD 15.8
ES 56
I think these bullets would like more jump but .005" is where I just ended up trying keep the bullet out of the powder and still jumping. I jump Berger 230s .020" with H1000 and it gets single digits SD routinely. I'll probably wait to experiment further until I can actually buy more H1000.
I finally got my .300 NM out yesterday to start load dev. 29.5" MTU/Heavy Varmint hybrid Krieger 9tw on a Stiller Tac338 in an MDT ESS with a Bushy XRS2.
Berger 220 LRHT, virgin Lapua cases, Fed 210M, Viht N570, OAL (bto) 2.820", COAL 3.623"
40F/462ft
1st 23rds
8 rds @ 90.0gr: 3098fps
3rds @ 90.5gr: 3144
3rds @ 91.0gr: 3156
3rds @ 91.5gr: 3162
3rds @ 92.0gr: 3177
3rds @ 92.5gr: 3183 bit of swipe, primers starting to flatten
Best group was at 91.0 (0.22moa) and best ES/SD was at 90.5 (8/3.9) and still decent accuracy (0.51moa) so gonna explore in 0.3gr increments between 90.4 and 91.0. Also gonna build a modified case gauge with a spent case to figure out where I am relative to the lands, I just used the OAL my smith suggested.
I was honestly quite surprised at how soft shooting it was, granted the rifle weighs 21lbs (with scope, bipod, mag) and has a 5-port Insite Heathen brake but it doesn't seem to recoil more than my similarly setup .308 (that has a 3-port Heathen). Less felt recoil/disturbed sight picture than my 14lbs 7Saum.
As an aside, as much as I love shooting the rifle, I hate reloading for it. N570 is a fucking nightmare. Clogged up my auto-thrower (gen 2)so I manually throw charges on my old Hornady powder thrower which still gets clogged, (though not as bad and easier to un-clog without making a huge mess) and finish on the auto-trickler. Any tips or better setups/better practices for dealing with the mini tree trunks that N570 is?
Berger 220 LRHT, virgin Lapua cases, Fed 210M, Viht N570, OAL (bto) 2.820", COAL 3.623"
40F/462ft
1st 23rds
8 rds @ 90.0gr: 3098fps
3rds @ 90.5gr: 3144
3rds @ 91.0gr: 3156
3rds @ 91.5gr: 3162
3rds @ 92.0gr: 3177
3rds @ 92.5gr: 3183 bit of swipe, primers starting to flatten
Best group was at 91.0 (0.22moa) and best ES/SD was at 90.5 (8/3.9) and still decent accuracy (0.51moa) so gonna explore in 0.3gr increments between 90.4 and 91.0. Also gonna build a modified case gauge with a spent case to figure out where I am relative to the lands, I just used the OAL my smith suggested.
I was honestly quite surprised at how soft shooting it was, granted the rifle weighs 21lbs (with scope, bipod, mag) and has a 5-port Insite Heathen brake but it doesn't seem to recoil more than my similarly setup .308 (that has a 3-port Heathen). Less felt recoil/disturbed sight picture than my 14lbs 7Saum.
As an aside, as much as I love shooting the rifle, I hate reloading for it. N570 is a fucking nightmare. Clogged up my auto-thrower (gen 2)so I manually throw charges on my old Hornady powder thrower which still gets clogged, (though not as bad and easier to un-clog without making a huge mess) and finish on the auto-trickler. Any tips or better setups/better practices for dealing with the mini tree trunks that N570 is?
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N570 has been a bit of a pain in the Autotrickler v3. It doesn't have a problem every throw, but quite a bit more than similar powders like RL33. There's not a whole lot you can do about that either, so when it gets to the point where I get a bit frustrated, I use Lee scoops to throw instead.
Yeah, I think I'll dig up some Lee scoops, will save me time and headache. I can't really be bothered to buy a charge master just to throw N570, haha. What decapping die do guys use for .300 NM? My cheap Lee is too small for the case.
Well with like 40 rounds through my rifle... we started load development. It is a 1-9 28" M24 barrel...
After a 10 shot ladder, I settled on 88.9gr of IMR 8133 in Lapua brass with a GM215 primer and pushing a 225 ELDM at 3037fps. No heavy bolt lift, flat primers or anything beyond a very very slight shadow of a ejector mark.. It has single digit SDs and shot a few great groups under .5"
After a 10 shot ladder, I settled on 88.9gr of IMR 8133 in Lapua brass with a GM215 primer and pushing a 225 ELDM at 3037fps. No heavy bolt lift, flat primers or anything beyond a very very slight shadow of a ejector mark.. It has single digit SDs and shot a few great groups under .5"
I recently switched to a turret press (why did I wait 20 years?) and had to pick up some more decapping dies. Yes, the Lee ones are very inexpensive, but too small for those magnum cases. I picked up RCBS and Redding decappers and while the Redding was more expensive, I kind of like the RCBS better.
I've settled on a load for now, will see what happens once the barrel speeds up and with once fired brass.
Started on a clean barrel, interestingly there was not the usual slower 1st round I usually experience in different calibers and barrels.
Tested 10 rounds (2x 3rd groups, 1x 4rd group) at 90.4
avg: 3147
ES: 23.0
SD: 7.0
6 rounds (2x 3rd groups) at 90.7
avg: 3178
ES: 34
SD: 12.4
6 rounds (2x 3rd groups) at 91.0
avg: 3194
ES: 12
SD: 5.1
90.4 gave me the best accuracy and the numbers are acceptable to me given the barrel has 45 rds on it and this is with virgin brass. I'll take it out to distance now and then recheck accuracy and speed around the 75 or 100 rd mark.
Started on a clean barrel, interestingly there was not the usual slower 1st round I usually experience in different calibers and barrels.
Tested 10 rounds (2x 3rd groups, 1x 4rd group) at 90.4
avg: 3147
ES: 23.0
SD: 7.0
6 rounds (2x 3rd groups) at 90.7
avg: 3178
ES: 34
SD: 12.4
6 rounds (2x 3rd groups) at 91.0
avg: 3194
ES: 12
SD: 5.1
90.4 gave me the best accuracy and the numbers are acceptable to me given the barrel has 45 rds on it and this is with virgin brass. I'll take it out to distance now and then recheck accuracy and speed around the 75 or 100 rd mark.
Verified dope at 830, 940, 1497 & 1600 yards today. Either my barrel is still speeding up (which is possible as it's only at 65 rds after today) or the AB custom curve is slightly off but I was 0.2-0.3 high at 1600. Consistent hits at 1600 (24" plate) once I sorted that out. Unlike with my 6s and 6.5s, there's really no question that you hit the plate at that distance with the .300NM!I'll have recheck zero/accuracy and speed tomorrow. I didn't have my Labradar with me as it was a 1.8km uphill snowshoe/hike in, haha.
Interesting. Most guys I've talked to said things stabilized more around the 75-100 round mark. Most of my short action calibers stabilize around 150 or so.
Yeah, my 6.5 did at about 80. But my 300 took awhile. I'm seeing sd's of 5-7 with with rl33 and about 3-4 inch groups at 1k.
Ouch I hope mine settles in before that! Otherwise 1/4 barrel life is well gone lol.
My 6creed didn’t settle till then,
I was correct in my assumption that my barrel was still speeding up shot 2x 5rd groups today to check accuracy/zero and speed. Had to adjust zero up 0.2 and left 01. and barrel sped up by 40fps. Barrel currently sitting at 75rds. Will snowshoe/hike back out to my long range spot again this weekend and re-verify dope from 830-1600 yards.
temp: 45F
DA: 1067ft
group 1: 0.55moa
group 2: 0.49 moa
avg MV: 3188
ES: 26
SD: 8.7
I'm happy with the accuracy and speed, wouldn't mind seeing the ES come down but this is all virgin brass so we shall see.
temp: 45F
DA: 1067ft
group 1: 0.55moa
group 2: 0.49 moa
avg MV: 3188
ES: 26
SD: 8.7
I'm happy with the accuracy and speed, wouldn't mind seeing the ES come down but this is all virgin brass so we shall see.
I went back out and verified dope again on the 28th and was on at 830, 940, 1500, 1600 yards. Last 2 rounds I shot went high at 1600. Went back to range and verified speed and accuracy. Speed was up to 3203fps (over 10 rounds). Went back up to my long range spot this morning and verified dope. Everything lined up with what the Kestrel was telling me so I'm hoping the barrel is done speeding up as it's at 130 rounds.
temp: 39F
DA: 946ft
830 yards: 3.8 mils
940 yards: 4.7
1500: 10.2
1600: 11.6
Most likely won't check things again at 100 yards until I'm through the rest of my virgin brass (have another 70 to go) or if something seems off shooting at distance. Loving this cartridge though, man it hits targets like a freight train!
temp: 39F
DA: 946ft
830 yards: 3.8 mils
940 yards: 4.7
1500: 10.2
1600: 11.6
Most likely won't check things again at 100 yards until I'm through the rest of my virgin brass (have another 70 to go) or if something seems off shooting at distance. Loving this cartridge though, man it hits targets like a freight train!
Sierra 230's with .02 jump has worked great for me. Hole on top of hole.
Lower accuracy node with the 225 and 230 Hornady pills in the 82.5 range with Retumbo. Another accuracy node at 85-86 with retumbo. Seated at the lands for everything. Seems to be the same in almost all the Norma barrels me and a few guys I shoot with have found. Maybe 8 different norma barrels all kinda follow what I mentioned above. Peterson brass. 215m's.
I am having a bit of a rough time picking a powder. I've got H-Retumbo, IMR-8133, and H-50 BMG
30" Bartlein 1:8
Lapua virgin brass
Fed 215-M
250 gr A-tips
I'm in better supply shape with the H-50BMG, but what I've read here, it might not make the speed. IMR-8133 was where I was leaning.
Input would be appreciated.
30" Bartlein 1:8
Lapua virgin brass
Fed 215-M
250 gr A-tips
I'm in better supply shape with the H-50BMG, but what I've read here, it might not make the speed. IMR-8133 was where I was leaning.
Input would be appreciated.
AI AX - 27" barrel, 1-9
230gr A-tip
Lapua case
Fed #215M
H1000 84.0gr
Jump 0.020"
CBTO 2.883"
Avg: 2937fps
SD: 3.0
ES: 6.8
68F, 978.2mbar, 36% RH
Cool. Thanks! I'm also using a AXMC. I'm now at 81gr N565 (significant below max) with .04" jump (which seems a bit much) but getting significant cratering but not heavy bolt or other pressure signs. How is this for you?
No cratering or any other pressure signs out to 85.0gr H1000 (2974fps, SD 7.7) although I likely won't run another ladder test until my can gets out of prison some time in the summer with any luck.
27" here. 3010 with 230 atips at 85.5 retumbo.
Might as well shoot a win mag or PRC if you want to use shorter barrel in that 22" range. And use RL26 to keep the speed. My 22" prc with RL26 shot the 215s 100 fps faster then the 20" Norma.
Might as well shoot a win mag or PRC if you want to use shorter barrel in that 22" range. And use RL26 to keep the speed. My 22" prc with RL26 shot the 215s 100 fps faster then the 20" Norma.
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After changing to VV N570 & Berger 230 Hybrid (from VV N565 & Hornady 225 ELDM) I'm now getting a consistent group size of between .25-.5 MOA at 100Meters with low SD. Also had to get my bold bushed. The large firing pin was piercing primers even at low pressures.
28" inch Bartlein 1:8 on AI AXMC
85.7GR VV N570
Lapua case
CCI 250
909 m/s with SD of 1 = 2982 Ft/s with SD of 3.3
Jump 0.02"
CBTO 72.20mm/2.8425"
28" inch Bartlein 1:8 on AI AXMC
85.7GR VV N570
Lapua case
CCI 250
909 m/s with SD of 1 = 2982 Ft/s with SD of 3.3
Jump 0.02"
CBTO 72.20mm/2.8425"
Anyone have Ramshot LRT data to share? Ramshot's factory data (http://blog.westernpowders.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Ramshot-LRT-Data.pdf) seems really conservative if I'm not going crazy. With the Hornady 225 ELD-M and 0.020" jump/3.577" COL (fits my AI) I am getting a max load of 96.6gr in QuickLoad which is like 8gr higher than Ramshot's listed max with 220-230gr bullets. Their factory max velocities are also 2850-2930fps which seems low compared to what many seem to achieve with this cartridge (though they had a 26" test barrel). Their COLs are also low - 3.406" for a 230gr Berger hybrid? SAAMI minimum COL is 3.556". Based on QuickLoad's data I was going to run a Satterlee "ladder" from 94-96.6gr of LRT but now I'm second-guessing that after seeing their factory data. I'm very curious what other folks are using for charge weight with Ramshot LRT.
PS - Ramshot LRT and Accurate LRT are the same thing according to the QuickLoad team so that's what I'm using in the software.
PS - Ramshot LRT and Accurate LRT are the same thing according to the QuickLoad team so that's what I'm using in the software.
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I bought it because Ramshot specifically advertises it as suitable for .338LM and 30 Nosler which are in roughly similar cartridge categories, publishes 300NM load data for it, and because I could snag 2lb of it easily. The Western Powders manual says LRT is their best powder for 300NM. Also a lot of guys here said it had similar burn rate to Retumbo which is used for 300 Norma. I would have preferred H1000 but as you said, good luck finding any.
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LRT is pretty good for .338LM...pushing 300gr bullets. But it’s still pretty slow and you'll be hard pressed to get velocities you’d want out of that cartridge. I use it because it’s cheap, I have a ton of brass and bullets, and i don’t need to hot rod it the way I do with .338LM Improved.
Try running the numbers on .300NM with LRT pushing heavier 250s perhaps?
Bottom line: you can make good loads for it with .300NM, you won’t get any pressure signs, and they’ll likely be pretty consistent and stable, but probably a good 100-150fps slower than say N570
Try running the numbers on .300NM with LRT pushing heavier 250s perhaps?
Bottom line: you can make good loads for it with .300NM, you won’t get any pressure signs, and they’ll likely be pretty consistent and stable, but probably a good 100-150fps slower than say N570
I'm in the same boat as you. Have had my eyes out for retumbo, h1000, and n570 for a long while now. Ended up snagging some ramshot lrt because it was actually available and has some data out there to go by. Read on a different forum that the 300 norma guys love it. Time will tell
I have limited experience with N570 and the 300 Norma. From what I have seen so far with 87grs and 250 A tips at 2950 fps out of a 26" barrel and no pressure signs, I can't imagine there is a better powder avaliable.
Lots of load testing with that combination to come in the next couple months but love what I'm seeing so far.
Lots of load testing with that combination to come in the next couple months but love what I'm seeing so far.
Yeah N570 is well-known for this cartridge but I have not successfully found any for sale in 6mo.
I try not to run QuickLoad on bullets for which I haven't measured CBTO on my rifle since the seating depth can obviously significantly affect the pressure calculations. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say. If nobody has proven LRT load data to share then I guess I will just have to start significantly lower and just watch for pressure signs since QuickLoad says I can go 8gr over book max which is obviously pretty aggressive.
I try not to run QuickLoad on bullets for which I haven't measured CBTO on my rifle since the seating depth can obviously significantly affect the pressure calculations. Garbage in, garbage out, as they say. If nobody has proven LRT load data to share then I guess I will just have to start significantly lower and just watch for pressure signs since QuickLoad says I can go 8gr over book max which is obviously pretty aggressive.
Followup question: what kind of velocities are you guys getting with the 225 ELD-M?
As planned I ran a ladder at lower charges yesterday and got velocities up to 2833fps with 90gr of Ramshot LRT and 0.020" of jump. No pressure signs at all on the virgin Lapua brass or primers. It appears that I was getting ~50fps velocity increase per grain of powder with a possible low node in the 86-87gr region. Will run another ladder up to 97gr next time but knowing what a "good goal" speed is with the 225s would help. I've seen a few posts in the 3000-3100fps range.
As planned I ran a ladder at lower charges yesterday and got velocities up to 2833fps with 90gr of Ramshot LRT and 0.020" of jump. No pressure signs at all on the virgin Lapua brass or primers. It appears that I was getting ~50fps velocity increase per grain of powder with a possible low node in the 86-87gr region. Will run another ladder up to 97gr next time but knowing what a "good goal" speed is with the 225s would help. I've seen a few posts in the 3000-3100fps range.
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I was getting around 3050 fps when I used them about 3 years ago in Alabama.
86.8 gr H1000
28 in K&P 1in9 twist
300 NORMA MAGNUM 30* IMPROVED SHOULDER (.341 NECK / .235 FREEBORE)
I've never used LRT before but I do know someone who has great luck using it in a 338 Lapua. I would like to try it as soon as I find some.
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