Range Report 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I get better results using G1 .648 too.

I tried .630 and was consistently shooting high. Similar to your results.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'd mess with the bc before I'd mess with the velo.

 

[GuinnessNM]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

What was the altitude for the match?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I did mess with BC's and would have to significantly change the BC to get the results, and they still didn't match up. I need to test the calibration of the scope, I haven't ruled out that potential issue yet.

As for the altitude, I use station pressure, and it was 28.46".

Branden

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Ok, after a LOT of manipulation, to get the JBM numbers to match my actual results, or at least get VERY close to my real world results, I had to increase the BC to .748, and increase my velocity 20fps. I just don't think that Hornady is that far off on the published BC of their bullets. Especially being that far off in the 'wrong' direction.

After some more playing after I had an idea I got some more numbers to work. I used .648, and stuck with it. Went over some old chrono data and found something that I had missed before. There were differences of 30fps between full length sized, and neck sized brass. Neck sized was getting 2560fps, when I put in 2590fps for the velocity on a .648 my numbers matched across the board until 700yd, when it was still .9moa too much.

Granted I need to double check the chrono data to make sure that my belief of 2590fps is correct. It's possible as the rounds were sitting in the sun getting warmed a bit before they were shot. The thursday before the match was the most recent chrono data I had which gave me a 2557fps avg, however that was for neck sized brass. I full length sized all brass for the match.

Final Edit: Exbal's giving me anywhere from .5 to .75moa more at 700 then required, but dead on everwhere inside. I suppose I need to quit crying about it, it's a hit on a 1.5moa target at that range regardless.

Branden

 

[howdydoit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Sounds like your just being thorough and theres nothing wrong with that.

Howdy

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I suppose I need to quit crying about it, it's a hit on a 1.5moa target at that range regardless.

Branden </div></div>

Depends on your goals. But I would probably be pretty satisfied with that data. Now just log real world data for the conditions you fire in and vary them as much as you can. Different weather, altitude, etc.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

That's kind of what i've done so far. I've logged the data from the match and created a accurate drop table to 700yds that I intend to use for deer season, only problem is that the temperature that I obtained the data in was 80 degrees, it'll likely be in the 30's or so when I go deer hunting. I need to spend some time looking at trends of drop differences between temperatures. Everything that i've looked at so far shows minor differences in drop when the temperature is the only variable, I didn't adjust the station pressure to the temp. I don't expect the pressure to change much, i've been watching the pressure over the last several days, and reviewed logged data from other shooting outings and noted that the pressure doesn't change much at all, .1 to .2" up or down from what I consider 'normal' which is of no consequence in shooting to 1K yards. Now if I can just get access to a place that'll have calm winds, flat ground, and goes to 1500 yards so I can get drop data all the way out to the supersonic limits of the cartridge.

Branden

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Isn't colder air thinner? Should mean that you'll have less drop, correct.

Just shooting from the hip here, if I'm completely off base then disregard.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Onemoretime</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Isn't colder air thinner? Should mean that you'll have less drop, correct.

Just shooting from the hip here, if I'm completely off base then disregard. </div></div>

Cold air is actually more dense. I forgot the ratios and numbers involved, but the warmer the air, the less dense, incidentally warmer air also holds more moisture which makes it even 'lighter'. When I run the numbers through JBM with identical conditions except for RH set at 0 and 90% the difference at 1000 yards is 2 inches in favor of the 90% humidity. I always just set the humidity at 50% as a default although it doesn't seem to make a difference what you set it at as it's unlikely that a tactical rifle is going to hold 2" at 1000 yards.

The biggest factors effecting bullet flight are pressure, and temperature. Air pressure changes with altitude, so it's easiest to plug the altitude as 0, and then use station pressure. If you only know corrected air pressure, then you'll need the altitude so station pressure can be calculated. Temperature is easy, no corrections this way or that way necessary.

I'm not talking other factors involved, i'm talking strictly inside 1K yard shooting where Coriolis, and spin drift aren't playing significant factors, although my long 208's are getting about 3.5" spin drift at 700 yards, i'll factor that in at the next match as I did see it on the target results.

Branden

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dust_Remover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....although my long 208's are getting about 3.5" spin drift at 700 yards, i'll factor that in at the next match as I did see it on the target results.

Branden </div></div>

Guess I was off base.

I've got to look into the spin drift since I'm shooting 240's mostly with some 220's and 208's thrown in.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I shot this load at 1100 yards today. I have 35 smoa come-ups in the Leupold scope and it seems to "stop" at about 32 ish. I needed at least 32 to get to 1100 per JBM. I thought it might make it, but no. It made nice divots in the ground very sub moa, once I got the 5 smoa wind figured out. (My Kestrel came apart!)

The conditions today were about 20*F warmer than when I did my development. This RL 17 is just like any of the other RL series powders. VERY temp sensitive. That is why I quit using them long ago with the RL 25 and the 300 RUM. Half of the primers fell out. That is not to say that they weren't loose to begin with as I have not bought new .308 brass for... a long time. I am however, very pleased with this combo as it felt a lot like shooting the 7 WSM and the 180 VLD combo. The wind means a whole lot less. I used a 316 G7 for the JBM and it seemed to follow just fine with actual flight. I think I need a new scope and at least a 20 moa rail. How many moa do the new Falcon scopes have again?

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I just posted some results from temperature testing it with 190s here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1386367#Post1386367

I would expect it to be more stable with the 208s than with the 190s, but it isn't going to be a HUGE difference.

Run a test, its pretty easy...

 

[spot69221]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

ffl medic, do you trust the elevation in the scope?

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I did not shoot over the chrono as I was a little pressed for time. I will do so a little later this week as the daytime higher temps are forecasted to be a little longer. The load printed where it should have so I'm not sure if chrono data would be beneficial. I know that I didn't loose any primers before and I did now. The only difference is the 20*+F. It is acting like the 51 gr. loads I did at 50*F even though it is 50.1 gr.

I have used this old Leupy for some years now and it has been VERY reliable. It seems as though the last few moa, the turret turns, however the impact remains the same. In other words, I should have been able to shoot over the top of the target. However, I consistently shot below it even though I was adding elevation. I have never had to use all of the travel in this scope. I think it would have been just fine at 1K.

 

[LongArm]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

When I try to seat the Berger 210" into my case It bottoms out on the nose of the bullet and hangs on to it. I am trying o seat it to 2.88". This started at around 3" I have tried Lee Deluxe dies and RCBS both are doing it.

Any tips?

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

You mean the seating die hangs onto the bullet nose? What is the vintage of those dies?

 

[LongArm]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Yes it hangs onto the nose/tip (VLD) and puts a ring on it, the dies are lee deluxe collet dies, they are about 2 years old.

What are y'all using?

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I have used RCBS, Hornady and the Lee dies you mention. Never had the issue you are experiencing. Try taking them apart and cleaning them real good.

 

[LongArm]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

They are clean, the Lee's look like the angle on the seater plug is different than the angle of the 210 vld. the rcbs dies are new and clean.

both put a ring around the nose in different areas. both of them bite into the vld and make it hard to get it unstuck with out moving the bullet out of the case.

It seams as if the angle of the vld's is more steep and the bullet is longer than others and this is what is causing the problems.

Any thoughts? I got these trick new parts and I am stuck at the bullet seating !@#$%^

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

What is the neck tension like?

 

[spot69221]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ffl medic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I have used this old Leupy for some years now and it has been VERY reliable. It seems as though the last few moa, the turret turns, however the impact remains the same. In other words, I should have been able to shoot over the top of the target. However, I consistently shot below it even though I was adding elevation. I have never had to use all of the travel in this scope. I think it would have been just fine at 1K. </div></div>

Just wondered, the dreaded phantom clicks. Always on the Leupold's I have had.

Good data fellas.

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

So i'm NOT imagining things!

 

[LongArm]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

It might have something to do with the neck tension?? They seemed snug (neck tension) when I was seating them. I do not know a way to test the neck tension. I followed the instructions on the neck sizing die. I thought it was due to the amount of powder it was compressing.

The brass are fire formed then neck sized and it seems like either the neck tension is to tight or there is to much powder in the case. This added to the mismatch on the bullet angle is causing the die to grab onto the bullet nose and not release like it should. Putting a ring around the bullet nose/tip.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I had another match on Sunday where I used the 208's to good success. In a strange twist as compared to the last match where Exbal wasn't correct, I had extrapolated data from the last match to use for this match. I wasn't going to take my Palm with Exbal with me, but did anyway. It's a good thing. I had my 100y zero, and moved to 200, 2moa up and was spot on, moved to 300, dialed up 4 and hit 4" low, confused, I checked exbal, it called for 4.75 up, if I checked it, I would have dialed 5 and would have gotten all 3 shots in the bull (BTW, the shot group was 1.1" @ 300). Moved back to 400, dialed 8, exbal called for 7.75, hit 3.5 low (estimated group center) so I needed 9, moved to 500 and exbal called for 11.25, but I thought that after the 400 results that I was once again 1moa off, dialed 12. Turns out, exbal was right, 11moa would have been the better call. 600 called for 15 up, and it was correct, 700 called for 19.25, dialed 19 and was correct. Just when I had thought that Exbal was a bad move, it redeems itself.

There's something about that 400 yard results though, i'm thinking that I used ammo from the box that hadn't warmed up to the ambient temperature yet. When I arrived at the range it was 28 degrees according to the Kestrel, by the time we started shooting it warmed up to 44, it was likely in the low 50's by the time we got to 400, and i'm thinking that it's possible that I didn't give the rounds ample time to warm up, I don't know, it could have been the shooting position too. My 500 yard group was horrendous, however it was the same at the last match too. It's not a great berm to shoot from. My 600 and 700 yard groups were good (700 was a cool 4.75").

I really like the 208's, but I think that I need to get a break. I'm starting to get this strange idea in my head that I want to try out 240gr SMK's to see what they'll do!

Branden

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LongArm</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I do not know a way to test the neck tension. </div></div>
Measure OD of case neck prior to seating, then OD of case neck with seated bullet, subtract the unloaded from the loaded and you will have how much neck tension you have.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Does anyone know of anyplace on the net, articles or otherwise that have any data on the temperature sensitivity of RL17? I'm going to try some of my own tests over the winter, but was hoping that somebody with a proper scientific background had already published something that would prevent me from publishing my own statistically insignificant disaster of a test.

Regardless, any data that I get from my testing will be helpful is getting long range dope correct when the temp is low, and the shot is long.

Branden

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Cough!.... cough!...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kombayotch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just posted some results from temperature testing it with 190s here:
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1386367#Post1386367

I would expect it to be more stable with the 208s than with the 190s, but it isn't going to be a HUGE difference.

Run a test, its pretty easy... </div></div>

Added Varget data to that thread last night too.

 

[kombayotch]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'll just copy the data over and make it easy. Here it is with two other powders for comparison:

Summary:
175 SMK, 40.2 gr. IMR3031, CCI 250 > 59 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 45.0 gr. RL-17, CCI 250 > 80 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 45.0 gr. RL-17, 210M > 92 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 42.3 gr. Varget, CCI 250 > 14 fps change over 100 F
190 SMK, 42.3 gr. Varget, 210M > 15 fps change over 100 F

The value in front of the 'x' is the slope. It is the change in fps. per degree F.

 

[Falar]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I did some initial load development today, 5 rounds fired in each string:

48.5gr

2570fps, 12 SD, ES 27

49gr

2578fps, , 11 SD, ES 36

49.5gr

2588fps, 7 SD, ES 24

50gr

2632fps, 14SD, ES 41

This is through a factory Savage 10FCP 24" 1:10" barrel. Loaded to 2.980" OAL (as long as possible to not jam in the factory DBM) I reamed the throat out to where I'd have to load to 3" to touch the lands, so these were .020" out. BTW, I love the Redding Competition Seating die. It seats off the ogive which is great for loadinga specific distance from the lands and these bullets must be very consistent, because my OAL is only varying about .003". Brass was new, unprepped Winchester and primers were BR2s. Temperature was 72 degrees with average humidity, a rare nice cool day for Houston. I was shocked how velocity didn't seem to increase much for the 48.5-49.5gr loads, then jumped quite a bit with the 50gr load. The brass/primers look about the same across all the loads too, so I will go out next time with some in the 50-51gr range. Honestly, I planned on loading 48.5-51 the first time but when I started loading these I saw how full the case was and how far the bullet was seated (just below the start of the shoulder) and heard the CRUNCH and had such difficulty seating the bullets that I thought "no fucking way is anything over 50gr not going to blow my gun up" so I didn't load any more than 50gr. I'm putting .003" neck tension on them and the OAL didn't increase over the week and a half they were loaded. I didn't hBN coat them either, thinking that the coating process usually lets you increase velocity by letting you add more powder since it lowers pressure, and I sure wasn't going to add more powder. However, now that I know better I'm going to go out again with loads in the 50-51gr range and probably hBN coat the bullets. This powder/bullet combination makes .308 take on a whole new character. I'm glad I put an FTE brake on the gun, I never noticed recoil in a .308 until now! I have a 28" barrel on order, I wonder how fast these would be through it.....

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

looks like operating pressure was fairly constant until you got to 50gr.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad I put an FTE brake on the gun, I never noticed recoil in a .308 until now! </div></div>

I need to get a brake on mine. It's not too bad until you've been shooting for a little while. I'm just fine after 20-25 shots, but the matches I go to i'm shooting at least 35, and I take 50 with me, and come home empty from having a little fun with steel after the match. It wears on me after a while. I'm seriously surprised that I haven't developed a flinch.

Branden

 

[esorensen]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'm going to cut my throat a little longer and give myself between .002-.004 more headspace as well. I have not had the chance to shoot at warmer temps over the chrono. I've got other things going on.

I was hoping to be able to use the rifle on this upcoming hunt, but it's going to have to wait till either Dec. or Jan. I don't think that changing either of these things will change the accuracy or velocity that much. I do hope however, that it will keep it from being so close to a narrow redline if that makes any sense.

I've shot with a brake before, and I don't care for the blast. How heavy is your rifle?

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I haven't weighted it, but i'm guessing somewhere in the 10-12lbs range. It's not a lightweight, but it's not as heavy as some other rifles i've shot. At the match this past weekend it seemed like most folks were shooting 18+lbs rifles!

I used to have a Bushmaster M4 in 5.56 that had a brake that made it VERY loud to shoot. I was looking at the FTE brake. There was another shooter that had one on his 6.5 creedmore, and it didn't seem too bad to me, and I was laying right next to him a couple times.

I think I can get used to the increased noise, and I prefer to shoot in a field rather than a covered bench, and there is MUCH less noise in a field than a bench. I can handle the recoil to a point, but if I get the brake, I can do something really stupid, like try out 240gr SMK's!!

Branden

Branden

 

[Downzero]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

What twist are you other guys using?

 

[Onemoretime]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I think 1-10 is the best bet.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

1:10 is definately the best, however I believe MontanaMarine has used a 1:12 at least once or twice, I may be wrong. I didn't take the time to go back and review posts to confirm, or correct.

Branden

 

[762frmafr]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What twist are you other guys using? </div></div>
1-10

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I'm runnig the 1/12 factory Rem barrel. If I was choosing a custom barrel I'd go 1/10.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Was out yesterday confirming my zero for deer season opening on the 14th. Good results;

49.0gr RL17
208 Amax
~3.0" COL
Lapua Brass
CCI200 Primer
Velocity is about 2590fps

I don't think that i've mentioned yet that with this same load I got a 1.1" (5shot) group at 300 yards, and a 4.75" group at 700 yards. Both I have a witness that's on this forum, I need to take a picture of that when i'm not feeling so lazy.

Branden

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I was out yesterday with these, and had a identical load of 49.0 grains RL17, they were loaded with a new lot of Rl17, and these were HOT. My velocities jumped to 2620-2640fps, stiff bolt lift, had one primer come out on extraction, serious pressure issues. I have to pull back on the load.

Anyone else having any issues?

Branden

 

[Top Cat]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Lot to lot can burn you when running near the edge with any powder...should always pull back on a new jug and work back up...you running moly on those?

TC

 

[Short-bus]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Nope, no moly.

Branden

 

[Falar]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

Who will be the first to try this combo in .30-06?

I just bought a brand new '06 but have no scope or brass yet. I know what RL22 can do with them but if RL 17 can equal the velocity it would be nice to use the same powder in both calibers.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I've been meaning to get on to this. I'll load some up and do a ladder test over the chrono.

 

[Falar]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been meaning to get on to this. I'll load some up and do a ladder test over the chrono. </div></div>

If RL17s burn rate really does fall inbetween 15 and 19, then common sense would suggest it would be best with lighter bullets in '06. I'm willing to bet though that somehow it will at least out do RL19 when it comes to the heavies because of its higher energy content. Doc (the guy that is USO East now) said he tried it out and got velocity in the 2850ish range but with room left in the case that caused high SD/ES. I wonder if coated bullets would be the way to go here as you'd have to increase the powder charge to get the same velocity compared to naked bullets.

 

[MontanaMarine]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

I did some tests already with RL17, 130gr TTSX, 30-06. spectacular velocities, without pressure signs. Over 3400 fps via 24" bbl.

 

[Falar]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did some tests already with RL17, 130gr TTSX, 30-06. spectacular velocities, without pressure signs. Over 3400 fps via 24" bbl. </div></div>

Wow, that is moving! My new '06 also has a 24" barrel, I really wanted a 26" but the only Model 70s that wear those are magnums. RL17 seems like it will live up to all of the hype after all. I am a bit disturbed with Kombayotch's report on how temperature sensitive it is though, just like RL22 and RL25.

 

[rippit]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

finaly went out and shot this combo today, results were good.

havent been able to get 155 lapuas to shoot worth a darn out of the rifle( R&D 20inch 1in10 schneider), so I tried this today.
I worked my way up to 49 gr witch gave me 2620 fps .that on a 55degree day in the desert is pretty good.
bolt wasnt hard to lift but I was getting some ejector wipe.

I will try and settle somwhere around 47.5-48 gr which should put me somewhere around 2550 fps.

everything shot under MOA and I kept my OAL at 2.885 so they will fit in the mag. pretty compressed though.

I will try and keep you posted,

 

[2ndPanzer]

Re: 308 Win, 208 AMax, RL17

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I loaded some 175s smks with 52grs Rl-17 and the case was full but no pressure signs.
</div></div>

How is it working with the 175's?