6.5 Grendel v .300 Blackout

[Flex686]

Doin an AR15 build and debating between building it for the 6.5 Grendel or the .300 Blackout..


I know I'm a bit late to the build party (pun intended), but any suggestions?

 

[346ci]

Night and day there, what is the purpose of this rifle?

 

[502Chevelle]

I'm with 346CI, these cartridges are so different I think it would be hard to give an opinion with out more info. Whatcha gonna do with it. If you are shooting long range precision matches in my part of the country, I highly recommend the blackout.

 

[pizzamanny]

Apples to potatoes.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

6.5 grendel for long range shooting, 300 blk for suppressed SBR or similar.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[neeltburn]

I have a 300 BLKOUT and while it is a fun little gun it really needs a suppressor to complete it. I agree with the others its a Apples to Oranges thing.

 

[rjacobs]

yup completely different. While the bullet weights might end up being similar, the Grendel bullets will typically have a higher BC. The powder charges are also a decent amount higher in the grendel(25g+) where as the 300BLK start to compress at like 20g. Most charges are topping out around 19g for the light stuff(110g Barnes and VMax) and even less for the heavier supers(~15g for the 150g FMJ pulls).

I have heard guys reliably throwing the 6.5 Grendel out to 1000 yards. The 300BLK is, at best IMO, a 500 yard gun for targets and something like high 300's for hunting(110g Barnes black tips supposed to open up down to around 1300FPS). I know there are video's of shooting the 300BLK at 1000 yards, but I dont honestly think its something thats repeatable very often where with the 6.5 I believe it probably is.

Now if you are talking about wanting to shoot subs, I dont know if the Grendel can do that(Ive never seen a heavy 200+g 6.5 bullet), but I KNOW the 300BLK can do it.

 

[nuclear_shooter]

TL;DR you need both.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[jasonfaz]

TL;DR you need both.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

^^^^ this is very accurate.

 

[corym468]

For suppressed subsonic loads go Black Out. For absolutely everything else go with the Grendel.

The Grendel can shoot sub sonics, but it's not common and will take some work.

Yes right now the blackout has more options in the marketplace, but IMHO it has reached its peak, while the Grendel hasn't hit its prime.

That's my personal take on the two.

We need to know your intentions with the build to help you figure out which is best for you.

BTW the Grendel can be built into a very effective SBR with or without a suppressor.

I've currently got a group buy going for Lilja SBR Grendel Barrels. You can say I'm a little biased. However, I think of it as putting my money where my mouth is.

 

[jasonfaz]

You really have to evaluate each based on your intended use of the rifle. My 300 BLK is only used short range suppressed with subs. I see little value in shooting supers out of it. I'd rather shoot my 5.56 or 6.5G with supersonic loads.

Cory, I think the 6.5G in an SBR config is an interesting concept. What advantages to you think it has over current offerings (5.56, 300 BLK, but mainly big bores .458 for example) that makes it worth looking into?

 

[Ledzep]

Not sure if this is a serious question....

6.5 Grendel.

300blk is a novelty thing. suppressed subs-- oooh ahhh. Big deal. Effective range is??? Grendel can bust large game to 400+. I've seen as far as 700.

 

[jasonfaz]

300 BLK is an application specific thing. Nothing else cycles reliably with subs out of an SBR semi-auto platform (other than modified 458 SOCOM). Effective range is dependent on target and projectile.

The devil's in the details...

 

[346ci]

For a SBR with more range and thump vs the 300bo, check out the 6.8. My deer rig this year is a suppressed 12.5" 6.8, lots of power in a compact package.

Start here for a good non biased read comparing the 2: From Failure to Success, The Fall of the 6.8 SPC AND rise of the 6.8 SPC II as a Hunt

 

[-Nick-]

300blk is a novelty thing. suppressed subs-- oooh ahhh. Big deal. Effective range is??? Grendel can bust large game to 400+. I've seen as far as 700.

Are you serious? That's why there's a HUGE market for 300 BLK and barely a market for the Grendel. Every caliber has a specific purposes, and writing something off as a novelty because you clearly don't understand the purpose is ignorant.

 

[-Nick-]

...while the Grendel hasn't hit its prime.

I hate to say it man but like a couple other great cartridges that just didn't take off I don't see it being a late bloomer unless the AR market get's on board with more offerings in a retail setting.

 

[richidaho]

I don't think the Grendel will ever have a place in the market for the ammo manufactures to continue to make ammo for this caliber. It will go to the wayside like Winchester .351 a good gun but other more popular calibers will take its place. If you want LR in an AR get a 260.

Rich L

 

[corym468]

Are you serious? That's why there's a HUGE market for 300 BLK and barely a market for the Grendel. Every caliber has a specific purposes, and writing something off as a novelty because you clearly don't understand the purpose is ignorant.

There's a huge marketing campaign and a huge corporation pushing the 300 blackout.

If Wolf finally releases the steel case ammo this year that they have us believing in, the Grendel will blow up in popularity.

The BO can be used beyond suppressed subs, but it's very limited.

The BO is a niche weapon. The Grendel is in a niche market.

A niche market can be outgrown, niche limitations can not.

 

[corym468]

You really have to evaluate each based on your intended use of the rifle. My 300 BLK is only used short range suppressed with subs. I see little value in shooting supers out of it. I'd rather shoot my 5.56 or 6.5G with supersonic loads.

Cory, I think the 6.5G in an SBR config is an interesting concept. What advantages to you think it has over current offerings (5.56, 300 BLK, but mainly big bores .458 for example) that makes it worth looking into?

I think the biggest advantage is being able to take a highly versatile 20"+ Grendel on a hunting trip and being able to pack a quick change SBR upper that uses the same ammo to give you a complete package for most all North American Hunts.

While the Grendel isn't going to blow giant holes in an engine block, it's significantly cheaper to shoot.

I don't have any field experience with an SBR Grendel at this time, so I don't feel comfortable giving a detailed breakdown comparison of the Grendel vs the popular 5.56 sbrs. I've asked a friend who has multiple Grendel SBRs his opinion on that. I'll share it if he permits it.

I will say on paper the Grendel blows them away. A 10.5" Grendel can be expected to get roughly 2200 fps MV from the popular 123gr 6.5mm projectiles for the Grendel. With the 123gr SST you're above 1800 fps at 300 yds and 1600 fps at 500 yards.

That's beyond the average hunter's capability. Build a 12.5" Grendel and there almost isn't any need for anything else.

 

[-Nick-]

There's a huge marketing campaign and a huge corporation pushing the 300 blackout.

If Wolf finally releases the steel case ammo this year that they have us believing in, the Grendel will blow up in popularity.

The BO can be used beyond suppressed subs, but it's very limited.

The BO is a niche weapon. The Grendel is in a niche market.

A niche market can be outgrown, niche limitations can not.

KAC, DD, AAC, LMT, Noveske, FN, Wilson, Remington, PWS, S&W, etc etc... Sounds a little more than just one corporation to me. I'm not disagreeing that it's not a niche weapon, but even a niche weapon can be a useful tool if its employable in a bigger market like CQB SBR's. The Grendel although useable for the same wasn't intended for that purpose. Just because you can doesn't mean you should... which on the flip side is like everyone who keeps taking a 300 BLK SBR and shooting out to 800yds with it.

 

[Wannashootit]

Odd that I can't find a 6.5 G barrel in stock- anywhere, for a "niche" chambering that's sure to go by the wayside...

I couldn't disagree more. The Grendel excels in every category vs. the 5.56- there is no comparison, and it is on par and exceeds .308 ballistics at range.

Given that this is a precision rifle forum with an emphasis on long-range, the 6.5 G is on a completely different planet than the 5.56- or any other chambering that can be utilized with the AR-15 platform.

If anyone knows of a round that exceeds it's performance please enlighten me- and let me know where I can source a barrel.

 

[richidaho]

Take the Winchester .351 this ammo was produced for over 60 years. In a fun to shoot Winchester 1907. People liked it when it was made at the turn of the century. It was used mostly by prison guards on deer, and gangsters. It was the shit at the time. Does not mean it will last. I would bet you can't find 6.5 Grendel on the shells of 1/2 the small town guns stores in America. And I would bet that ammo manufactures don't produce this ammo for more then 10 years. Time will tell.

Rich L

 

[corym468]

KAC, DD, AAC, LMT, Noveske, FN, Wilson, Remington, PWS, S&W, etc etc... Sounds a little more than just one corporation to me. I'm not disagreeing that it's not a niche weapon, but even a niche weapon can be a useful tool if its employable in a bigger market like CQB SBR's. The Grendel although useable for the same wasn't intended for that purpose. Just because you can doesn't mean you should... which on the flip side is like everyone who keeps taking a 300 BLK SBR and shooting out to 800yds with it.

I don't disagree that it can be a useful tool when used correctly.

However, I'm confused by the rest of your post. Are you saying that the BO is an effective CQB SBR because of it's ability to be utilized reliably with an ultra short barrel (sub 10") and suppressor rendering it almost hollywood quite? I'd agree with that. It could be an effective tool for a SWAT team and a specialized tool for specific Spec Ops missions. However, the military has to consider a round's ability to effectively penetrate body armor. The BO with sub loads is seriously lacking there. The Grendel with its high sectional density rounds could theoretically thrive here. So I'd suspect Spec Ops would be much better served with a suppressed 45 acp and a more capable carbine.

Are you suggesting the Grendel was never intended for use as a carbine? The grendel was developed as a hunting rounds with aspirations of military carbine, DMR, and LMG applications. AA was selling 10.5" Grendels back in the beginning and has done extensive testing. AA only stopped selling them to focus on their more popular setups that they're struggling to keep up with demand for at this time.

 

[-Nick-]

I don't disagree that it can be a useful tool when used correctly.

However, I'm confused by the rest of your post. Are you saying that the BO is an effective CQB SBR because of it's ability to be utilized reliably with an ultra short barrel (sub 10") and suppressor rendering it almost hollywood quite? I'd agree with that. It could be an effective tool for a SWAT team and a specialized tool for specific Spec Ops missions. However, the military has to consider a round's ability to effectively penetrate body armor. The BO with sub loads is seriously lacking there. The Grendel with its high sectional density rounds could theoretically thrive here. So I'd suspect Spec Ops would be much better served with a suppressed 45 acp and a more capable carbine.

Are you suggesting the Grendel was never intended for use as a carbine? The grendel was developed as a hunting rounds with aspirations of military carbine, DMR, and LMG applications. AA was selling 10.5" Grendels back in the beginning and has done extensive testing. AA only stopped selling them to focus on their more popular setups that they're struggling to keep up with demand for at this time.

I think even as a super sonic round in CQB roles the 300BLK performs better than the 5.56. I never said the Grendel couldn't be applied as a CQB effectively, but I think the round is more suited for DMR work and hunting as you stated in its origins than an SBR. In all fairness I've never shot a Grendel SBR, nor really seen a lot of talk about it until now, so the application doesn't seem far fetched. I do however think that the Grendel much like the 10mm and a few other rounds never gained enough momentum to sustain in the market and is slowly fading off rather than growing which in the end could be it's doom unlike the 300 BLK which is gaining more and more popularity and new manufacturers every year. I also still stand on my original point which is the 300 BLK is NOT a novelty cartridge which someone else stated earlier.

 

[Variable556]

If you want a SBR that still has legs, then the Grendel is a Gem.

Here's the chart for 123gr. Hornady Factory SST. Real numbers, real load. No cherry picked crazy stuff.

I scrolled the data screen down so you can see I haven't tinkered with the numbers or played with the altitude.

A 123gr. Hornady SST load (or 123gr. Amax-- They're interchangeable) that delivers over 800 ftLbs. and still expands at 400 yards is pretty good for an SBR.LOL Nothing exotic there just normal factory hunting ammo. If you travel above sea level (like out west or wherever) then it really gets fun.



The Grendel can do subsonic 160gr. hornady round nose bullets, but nothing else more exotic exists to date (to my knowledge). The problem is getting reliable cycling with them in an SBR. My current upper is a 10.5", and lacks dwell time. Giving a Grendel upper the same treatment the Blackout uppers have gotten (pistol gas ports, etc.) would make the Grendel run subs easily. The tighter 6.5 bore will yield more gas pressure at the port to play with. My next upper is going to be a 12.5" build and will run more gas. I'll see what it takes to cycle from there


My current 10.5" Grendel. It has killed quite a few deer.

Before the Hornady Factory loads came out, I just handloaded the Nosler 120 BT. It kills bucks quite dead with zero drama.

160 Hornady handload with Wolf Gold 120 MPT for comparison.

If someone were to make some exotic bullets for the 6.5G, I'm sure it could likely do well. It likely wouldn't beat out the 300Blk at short range, but if you'd like your SBR to still have some legs, the Grendel is the pick for me. It zaps them at short, medium, and long.

 

[-Nick-]

Odd that I can't find a 6.5 G barrel in stock- anywhere, for a "niche" chambering that's sure to go by the wayside...

I couldn't disagree more. The Grendel excels in every category vs. the 5.56- there is no comparison, and it is on par and exceeds .308 ballistics at range.

Given that this is a precision rifle forum with an emphasis on long-range, the 6.5 G is on a completely different planet than the 5.56- or any other chambering that can be utilized with the AR-15 platform.

If anyone knows of a round that exceeds it's performance please enlighten me- and let me know where I can source a barrel.

This forum is about long range and accuracy which includes subsonic shooting which ranges are less. You also just tried to compare it to 308 ballistics which means if we're going to go into the large frame world then you have to pull in 6mm CM, 6.5 CM, .260, and any number of wildcat cartridges which is way off topic and your Grendel won't win when I throw in other calibers like the 6mm CM, 6.5 CM, and 260...

 

[-Nick-]

I'd love to know where the OP went since we're all still waiting to hear what his intentions are since this is an Apples vs Tuna comparison...

 

[Ledzep]

No, you don't have to pull in the large frame rifles. That's the point. You get damn good long range performance out of a small-frame 7lb rifle. It nearly rivals standard (not LR/VLD loads) 308 performance while staying in the AR-15 frame. Similar performance, less weight, less recoil.

Why switch calibers from the 5.56? To get longer range, and more energy, right? Better performance.

What does the .300 BO do vs. 5.56? More energy.
Why is it popular? Cheap brass, cheap bullets, massive industry support.

What does the 6.5 G do? More range, more energy.

6.5 vs. 300 BO, the 6.5 has more range, more energy.

On a performance base, the 6.5G out runs just about everything out there in the AR-15 platform. You can SBR it and it's right on par with the 6.8 SPC. You might be short 100-200 FPE for like 300yd but guess what, 300+ that 6.8 is breathing the 6.5's dust. You can tag a deer or antelope at 500-700yd. This is an 8-10lb, 16-20" barreled AR-15 we're talking about. And if you absolutely want to be a tactical ninja turtle, you can load 160gr 6.5's sub-sonic and run a can..... :/ The versatility and performance is there. For whatever reason the misconception is running around that you NEED a 20" barrel to get any use out of the 6.5. fucking wrong.

My 16" tube is running 2450fps with 123's and I could push it harder without wrecking anything. What does your 300 BO do with 125's? at 300yd?

Industry support, for whatever reason is not so hot. Why? The big names are all trying to get their money out of the 6.8 and 300 BO. It's not because they're better performance wise. It's because they've got better advertising and the money to get it really rolling.

Anyone remember when the 300 whisper was a "niche cartridge" for how many years before all of the sudden the wonderful NEW AAC 300 BLACKOUT!!!! came out and it was a huge hit.

 

[QuarterBore Loader]

Damn, LedZep... I like your style..

 

[-Nick-]

No, you don't have to pull in the large frame rifles. That's the point. You get damn good long range performance out of a small-frame 7lb rifle. It nearly rivals standard (not LR/VLD loads) 308 performance while staying in the AR-15 frame. Similar performance, less weight, less recoil.

Why switch calibers from the 5.56? To get longer range, and more energy, right? Better performance.

What does the .300 BO do vs. 5.56? More energy.
Why is it popular? Cheap brass, cheap bullets, massive industry support.

What does the 6.5 G do? More range, more energy.

6.5 vs. 300 BO, the 6.5 has more range, more energy.

On a performance base, the 6.5G out runs just about everything out there in the AR-15 platform. You can SBR it and it's right on par with the 6.8 SPC. You might be short 100-200 FPE for like 300yd but guess what, 300+ that 6.8 is breathing the 6.5's dust. You can tag a deer or antelope at 500-700yd. This is an 8-10lb, 16-20" barreled AR-15 we're talking about. And if you absolutely want to be a tactical fucking ninja turtle, you can load 160gr 6.5's sub-sonic and run a can..... :/ The versatility and performance is there. For whatever reason the misconception is running around that you NEED a 20" barrel to get any use out of the 6.5. fucking wrong.

My 16" tube is running 2450fps with 123's and I could push it harder without wrecking anything. What does your 300 BO do with 125's? at 300yd?

Industry support, for whatever reason is not so hot. Why? The big names are all trying to get their money out of the 6.8 and 300 BO. It's not because they're better performance wise. It's because they've got better advertising and the money to get it really rolling.

Anyone remember when the 300 whisper was a "niche cartridge" for how many years before all of the sudden the wonderful NEW AAC 300 BLACKOUT!!!! came out and it was a huge hit.

Get over the suppressed subsonic SBR shit. I'm not going to venture into fairy-tale land about how useful it could be in a "tactical situation" with "spec ops" or fucking "SWAT".... It's novelty on the public range.

You're still trying to keep with small frame AR calibers in comparison to a 308 which is a cop out since if you're going to mention a large frame then lets compare your Grendel to the 6.5 CM. And not everything is about going farther ergo why calibers like the 458 SOCOM which was meant more for energy which can be achieved without having a lot of speed. You want to make your cartridge choice all about distance and accuracy then why fuck around with the Grendel when there are numerous 6mm wildcat catridges in AR-15 frames which will out perform it. Fact is as much as you like the Grendel if you're serious about getting maximum accuracy, speed, and energy then you're going to a large frame AR, but you like everyone else is constantly trying to rationalize the ultimate swiss army knife of rifles rather than the right tool for the right job which is why you keep going back to distance for every answer. The 300 BLK was only meant for SBR and CQB work which has been stated numerous times and it's extremely proficient for that, but you're obviously in love with your Grendel and rather than simply acknowleding a different tool for a different job you want to talk shit to rationalize what you have and how it will do everything better yet for some reason I don't see 6.5 Grendels flying off the shelves, dominating matches, or doing anything other than trying to find ammunition online if they don't reload because it's a dying cartridge...

I like how you're trying to go from a novelty cartridge in general to just one on a public range... But please, come back with the same tired argument about "distance" while I laugh since if you were serious about maximum everything then you would be in a large frame AR...

Add: BTW... My little ole 5.56 SPR can ring steel at 900+ yards with just a 77 SMK that I can find in just about any retail store with more than just 1-2 manufacturers to choose from. How about your Grendel? Yeah...

 

[rpk762]

I can’t speak to the 6.5 but I can speak to the 300-221 that I have. I shoot three loads from mine. The first one is a frangible load. It is fun to be able to shoot steel so close real bullets would just be stupid. The second is a 125gr softpoint that has killed a few deer. It is nice to have AK performance without having a AK. The third is a backward 150gr fmjbt. This load is surprisingly devastating on small game.

Sure there are better options for certain roles and no one round can truly “do it all”.

 

[thmpr]

KAC is no longer in the 300 BO business. FWIW.

 

[-Nick-]

KAC is no longer in the 300 BO business. FWIW.

So the "New" right next to it is a typo?

Knights Armament SR30

 

[akakb24]

Well stated!!

 

[banditbump]

Everyone has made valid points, I luv my grendel and the deer and hogs don't notice it's only a 16 inch barrel. But for lr what if u compared the 2 with the 123 grain .5 bc grendel Vs the 155 Palma bullet .47 ish in the 300aac, in the same barrel length? The bc's are pretty close and I would bet the Grendel has like 200 fps speed edge. That's what 150 yards difference? So the Grendel is 1k, yard cat ridge and the 300aac with a 155 Palma bullet is what an 850 cartirdge? And that 155 Palma bullet in a 30 grendel or 30 6.8 would have similar capabilities, in terms of long range super sonic distance correct? Wonder what Yall think , I been thinking bout building a 300 aa and feel like the 155 Palma would be the ideal supersonic bullet if it don't take up to much powder space...

 

[thmpr]

Limited Quantity Items - AR15.COM

 

[Variable556]

Hey "-Nick-", did someone with a Grendel bumper sticker run over your puppy or what?LOL

You are going way overboard with your mischaracterizations. It sways no one in the end, and just keeps yourself mad. That's why I usually avoid the purse swinging threads where the koolaid drinkers go at it. It settles nothing, and just makes the bitchers look bad to people looking for real data.

OP: I made a lengthy post that the board seems to have eaten. It says my post needed approved by a moderator. It appears not to have shown up. :-/

If this post shows up, maybe I'll go back and rewrite (yet again) all the info I tried to post up for you earlier.

 

[-Nick-]

Limited Quantity Items - AR15.COM

Thank you, good to know.

 

[-Nick-]

Hey "-Nick-", did someone with a Grendel bumper sticker run over your puppy or what?LOL

Dude this is not me mad, lol... How am I mis-characterizing? If anything I'm not the one calling people shit like a "tactical fucking ninja turtle" and at least I'm capable of realizing there are different rifles for different jobs. You think I'm drinking koolaid but frankly anyone who believes one cartridge does it all is the one who needs to put down the pitcher...

 

[Variable556]

Okay, that post went through this time.

Here are some real (non-hyped) numbers for a 6.5 Grendel out of a 12.5" barrel:

They are at sea level as well (no altitude games), I scrolled the screen and took another shot to confirm all the settings.

A Factory 123gr. Hornady load (Amax or SST-- they are interchangeable ballistically) will dump over 800ft. Lbs. at 400 yards, and still expand. That's pretty darn good for a SBR if you ask me.LOL

If you want primarily SBR suppressed with subsonics, then I'd give the 300Blk the nod. Otherwise I'd pick the Grendel any day. That's just me. Nick and other folks choose differently.

The Grendel can shoot subsonic 160gr. Hornady RN bullets, but out of my 10.5" Grendel they don't cycle reliably (nt enough dwell time, and smallish gas port). If my upper had a pistol length gas port they would though. The 300Blk still gets the nod though, since they have boutique bullets designed to expand at sub velocities, while no one currently offers anything like that for the Grendel.

120 Wolf MPT beside 160gr. Hornady load:

Here's my 10.5" AA Grendel. It runs flawlessly full auto (RDIAS) and suppressed. I love it.

I've decided to build a new 12.5" rifle to go with it though, as the extra two inches will net me about 150fps more velocity for that extra but of range.


This is mostly what I posted before, but it's a bit disjointed because I'm short of time and I'm mostly just regurgitating what I can remember.LOL

OP: I'll second everyone in that we really need to know what you want it for....

 

[-Nick-]

Nevermind I just saw the AA which I'm assuming is Adams Arms. What weight buffer are you using when running subs?

 

[Ledzep]

Okay, I get it. Sarcasm, humor (dare I say?), and hyperbole get lost through text. Do I really think you're an aquatic reptile of Chinese training in the arts of stealth and deception if you want to play with suppressors? No. They're cool, safer on the ears, get you less bitches from the neighbors etc. Buuut, what percentage of us are tactically operating with personals? The OP, we-- I -- assume, is asking about a personal weapon. Get what I'm saying? What states allow suppressors while hunting? (OP is from CA...) What are you going to shoot with suppressed subs? So you can spout off all day about how the 300 is optimized for SBR/suppressor, but it doesn't mean this guy is going to pay for SBR or a suppressor, let alone have any real need for a suppressed weapon. That's my opinion on suppressors in general- cool, but a novelty thing.

It's a cop out to say that you're getting near-308 performance out of an AR-15? No. It is the truth.

Yes, there are calibers that donkey stomp the 6.5G and 300 BO both. Generally, however, when given an "A or B" question, I answer A or B.

This thread is a pretty damn vague question, no? I guess all you gotta do is think of very many realistic (key word) situations you might run into throughout your life and honestly ask yourself what you'd rather have in your hands.

I know the limitations of my rifle, and I know the capabilities. Odds are the 6.5 is going to be a better choice than the 300. I can take a wider variety of game, I can shoot a wider variety of ranges, and I have more energy on target. Given a vague question, that's about as good as I can answer.

Nawmsayin?

 

[Variable556]

Dude this is not me mad, lol... How am I mis-characterizing? If anything I'm not the one calling people shit like a "tactical fucking ninja turtle" and at least I'm capable of realizing there are different rifles for different jobs. You think I'm drinking koolaid but frankly anyone who believes one cartridge does it all is the one who needs to put down the pitcher...

Since you asked:

#15

"barely a market for the Grendel"

Patently untrue. They've never been able to fill the demand from day one. Either in ammo, barrels, or any other Grendel specific item.


#16

"I hate to say it"

Rather disingenuous sounding.LOL Fact is, anyone with even low level reading comprehension can see that you took issue with what Ledzep said in post #12 of this thread, and instead of simply disagreeing, you got bent. He was a little over the top perhaps, but it was only his opinion. You clearly took it personal, and made it your mission to thereafter "attack" the Grendel cartridge.

#24

but I think the round is more suited for DMR work and hunting as you stated in its origins than an SBR

You've never even owned one, and actually know little about it. You (to your credit) admitted that. Then you say it's "fading off"??? LOL It's still pretty dang new.LOL Much younger than 10mm, or the .300 Whisper you so ardently defending. :-D

I also still stand on my original point which is the 300 BLK is NOT a novelty cartridge which someone else stated earlier.

Great. There was the correct answer. You disagree with Ledzep's opinion about the black, and stated your own. Cool. That was pretty much it right there. The kool-aid and purse swinging was pretty much most of what you posted in reference to the grendel other than that quote.

#25

This forum is about long range and accuracy which includes subsonic shooting which ranges are less. You also just tried to compare it to 308 ballistics which means if we're going to go into the large frame world then you have to pull in 6mm CM, 6.5 CM, .260, and any number of wildcat cartridges which is way off topic and your Grendel won't win when I throw in other calibers like the 6mm CM, 6.5 CM, and 260...

None of which fit in an AR15. You either missed that, or? If the conversation goes outside that envelope then both the Grendel and the Blackout are easily outclassed by other offerings.

It seemed to really irritate you that he pointed out the very high BCs that some of the Grendel loads have for an AR15 class cartridge. Pretty pertinent to a forum "about long range and accuracy which includes subsonic shooting which ranges are less.". I'm guessing the Grendel definitely fits here for some of those purposes.


Then Ledzep was a good bit inflammatory in post #27, and that really got you going.

#29

You're still trying to keep with small frame AR calibers in comparison to a 308 which is a cop out since if you're going to mention a large frame then lets compare your Grendel to the 6.5 CM.

You really seemed to jump the tracks right there. The point was that the Grendel has some high BC loads that can run with "normal" .308 loadings at distance (M80 ball, etc.), WHILE fitting inside an AR15 magwell. The 6.5 CM obviously doesn't fit that criteria, and pretty much invalidates your entire post. The rest referred to wildcat cartridges which you've already been dissing since they are just passing fads to be avoided unlike the 300Blk. ;-)

because it's a dying cartridge...

Based on what real world data?LOL

Add: BTW... My little ole 5.56 SPR can ring steel at 900+ yards with just a 77 SMK that I can find in just about any retail store with more than just 1-2 manufacturers to choose from. How about your Grendel? Yeah...

I like the 77SMK, but you must be in either a fictional or exceptional neighborhood if just about every retail store carries it where you live.LOL You see, that's the kind of mischaracterization and exageration I'm talking about. It helps nothing. The 77SMK is usually more available, but some stores do carry Grendel ammo. It would definitely be more available online if it didn't sell out quicker than folks can get it.

You felt that your "brand" was bashed, but instead of simply correcting any information that you felt was erronoeus, you joined in and actually magnified the bashing as retaliation.

I could write more, but I've wasted too much time on this already. It serves no good purpose in my opinion, and it's why I normally avoid these threads. 9mm, No! .45!, no, .40! No, .357 Sig! Blahh, blahh, blahhh.

40 Watt Plasma Rifle, then we could all stop arguing.LOL Though I bet that won't stop it either.;-)

 

[Variable556]

Nevermind I just saw the AA which I'm assuming is Adams Arms. What weight buffer are you using when running subs?

Nah, "AA" in the Grendel world is Alexander Arms. I should have wrote Alexander though, for those who don't already drink Grendel "koolaid". LOL

H2 buffer.

 

[jasonfaz]

Damn, this shit has gotten a little stupid. I recall seeing Nick's name for the first time when we started bitching at each other about the new GAP handguards. Since then, other than a grammatical error he made ;-), I've agreed with most of what he's said - including his comments in this thread. Chasing some "do it all" rifle is a never ending saga. Specific calibers - even outside of the barrel length specs - have always been brought to market with a specific intent in mind. That should always be taken into account when building a rig.

I have a Grendel and after some time with it, it's clearly the best long range performer out of the AR-15 platform. But, once you hit 16" and up in barrel length you're running into AR-10 weights. With the AR-10s and after market parts that are available today you can very effectively mitigate excessive weight.

The 6.5G is a good choice if you can only buy a single rifle, want an AR platform set up, and want to hunt. Outside of that, however, I don't see a lot of value in the 6.5G.

The 6.5G is under 1000 ft-lbs at 480 yds with a 20 inch barrel. With a 16 that 1000 ft-lbs threshold drops significantly. Hell, I outshoot my 6.5G with my .338 Federal for Christ's sake. I push a .338 210 gr Scirocco 2600 FPS and get 95" of drop at 600 yards. I chrono'd the 6.5 123gr AMAX at 2550 out of my 18" pipe and have to adjust for 100" at the same distance. The rigs are within 12 ounces in total weight.

If external ballistics don't matter, maybe terminal ballistics do. Comparing a 6.5 G to a 308 is just fucking retarded. You're comparing a rifle with a ME of over 3k to one that has an ME of 1850 ft-lbs. That's not close. My 12" 308 (which pushes a 155 gr Berger at 2485 with 109" of drop at 600 yards BTW) pounds substantially more energy and it weighs over a pound less than my Grendel. Do I need to adjust more for elevation and wind? Sure, but it's not a huge difference.

In terms of SBRs, no one buys an SBR for long range shooting. Do not sure how a 300 BLK is being compared. Shooting supers out of a 300 BLK is, once again, reminiscent of an attempt to make a rifle that was designed with a specific goal in mind (running heavy subs in a SA platform that cycles and does so sub 120 DBs) and try to justify how it's the best shit around cause it shoots 125s with a hair more energy than a 5.55 delivers 77s. Fucking fantastic, who cares? There's only one thing the 300 BLK does better than anything else - and that is cycling subs as quiet or quieter that a 9mm in an 8" barrel. If you don't have a can or an SBR you might give zero fucks. Regardless, do note that your comparison is largely irrelevant based on not only the above but many more factors that make 300 BLK valuable to some that haven't been mentioned.

 

[Variable556]

Okay, I get it. Sarcasm, humor (dare I say?), and hyperbole get lost through text. Do I really think you're an aquatic reptile of Chinese training in the arts of stealth and deception if you want to play with suppressors? No. They're cool, safer on the ears, get you less bitches from the neighbors etc. Buuut, what percentage of us are tactically operating with personals? The OP, we-- I -- assume, is asking about a personal weapon. Get what I'm saying? What states allow suppressors while hunting? (OP is from CA...) What are you going to shoot with suppressed subs? So you can spout off all day about how the 300 is optimized for SBR/suppressor, but it doesn't mean this guy is going to pay for SBR or a suppressor, let alone have any real need for a suppressed weapon. That's my opinion on suppressors in general- cool, but a novelty thing.

It's a cop out to say that you're getting near-308 performance out of an AR-15? No. It is the truth.

Yes, there are calibers that donkey stomp the 6.5G and 300 BO both. Generally, however, when given an "A or B" question, I answer A or B.

This thread is a pretty damn vague question, no? I guess all you gotta do is think of very many realistic (key word) situations you might run into throughout your life and honestly ask yourself what you'd rather have in your hands.

I know the limitations of my rifle, and I know the capabilities. Odds are the 6.5 is going to be a better choice than the 300. I can take a wider variety of game, I can shoot a wider variety of ranges, and I have more energy on target. Given a vague question, that's about as good as I can answer.

Nawmsayin?

Damn dude! Inflamatory much?LOL

We have no idea what the OP wants it for.

Suppressor hunting? West Virginia (for sure) and some others. On a SBR Grendel it's highly advised actually. They are loud as holy hell without a can. Kind of like getting flashbanged.LOL I shot my 10.5" in an enclosed stand once... ONCE. I'll never do that again. We use 5.56 at work, and 5.56 is obnoxious enough out of a shorty. The 10.5" Grendel is a sweetheart through a .308 can.

Subs for suppressed hunting? Personally--No thank you. I respect what I'm killing enough to opt for the much cleaner kill that a supersonic load will likely give. Shot placement is king, but then I'll still go for more energy dump with it every time I can.

 

[Nukes]

If you build or buy a 6.5 Grendel, I suggest that you buy a few extra bolts.

In about 3,000 rds. of factory and sub maximal reloads (no pressure signs evident), we are on our 3rd. bolt. The first two bolts were Les Baer bolts. When I spoke with him, Les blamed the use of a suppressor, but the 2nd bolt sheared a lug within 30rds., factory only (Wolf 120gn MPT), none using a suppressor. I bought a few Alexander Arms "hard use" bolts, but I had to wait the better part of a year to see them (ask Grendel owners about Alexander Arms delays).

Others may have better experience, but many owners report broken bolts (some Alexander Arms bolts too). While the rifle is very accurate and easily hits IPSC steel at 1200yds., I would not want to swap out a bolt in the middle of a hunt... or home defense, etc.

Can you guess which module is in our Grendel's Magpul MIAD pistol grip?



Yep, the module holding an extra bolt

 

[Ledzep]

I know, we don't know. Really, there's about 3 or 4 of us pissing into the wind right now (trying to sway internet opinions). I guess I'm just here for the cooling sensation. I'm going to give the "reply" button a break. Something about uneven stresses after rapid fire.

 

[Variable556]

Damn, this shit has gotten a little stupid. I recall seeing Nick's name for the first time when we started bitching at each other about the new GAP handguards. Since then, other than a grammatical error he made ;-), I've agreed with most of what he's said - including his comments in this thread. Chasing some "do it all" rifle is a never ending saga. Specific calibers - even outside of the barrel length specs - have always been brought to market with a specific intent in mind. That should always be taken into account when building a rig.

I have a Grendel and after some time with it, it's clearly the best long range performer out of the AR-15 platform. But, once you hit 16" and up in barrel length you're running into AR-10 weights. With the AR-10s and after market parts that are available today you can very effectively mitigate excessive weight.

The 6.5G is a good choice if you can only buy a single rifle, want an AR platform set up, and want to hunt. Outside of that, however, I don't see a lot of value in the 6.5G.

The 6.5G is under 1000 ft-lbs at 480 yds with a 20 inch barrel. With a 16 that 1000 ft-lbs threshold drops significantly. Hell, I outshoot my 6.5G with my .338 Federal for Christ's sake. I push a .338 210 gr Scirocco 2600 FPS and get 95" of drop at 600 yards. I chrono'd the 6.5 123gr AMAX at 2550 out of my 18" pipe and have to adjust for 100" at the same distance. The rigs are within 12 ounces in total weight.

If external ballistics don't matter, maybe terminal ballistics do. Comparing a 6.5 G to a 308 is just fucking retarded. You're comparing a rifle with a ME of over 3k to one that has an ME of 1850 ft-lbs. That's not close. My 12" 308 (which pushes a 155 gr Berger at 2485 with 109" of drop at 600 yards BTW) pounds substantially more energy and it weighs over a pound less than my Grendel. Do I need to adjust more for elevation and wind? Sure, but it's not a huge difference.

In terms of SBRs, no one buys an SBR for long range shooting. Do not sure how a 300 BLK is being compared. Shooting supers out of a 300 BLK is, once again, reminiscent of an attempt to make a rifle that was designed with a specific goal in mind (running heavy subs in a SA platform that cycles and does so sub 120 DBs) and try to justify how it's the best shit around cause it shoots 125s with a hair more energy than a 5.55 delivers 77s. Fucking fantastic, who cares? There's only one thing the 300 BLK does better than anything else - and that is cycling subs as quiet or quieter that a 9mm in an 8" barrel. If you don't have a can or an SBR you might give zero fucks. Regardless, do note that your comparison is largely irrelevant based on not only the above but many more factors that make 300 BLK valuable to some that haven't been mentioned.

If your Grendels weigh as much as an AR10 platform, then you need to change your builds or your smith. There's no real excuse for that (if you actually desired lighter), and it's not really an accurate comparison either.

The Grendel is the same weight-wise as any other generic AR15 platform. It carries no cartridge specific build weight aside from the actual ammo itself.

I'm getting ready to build a lightweight with a Balios-Lite receiver set I just got. It'll easily be sub 4.5 pound.

I don't take too much issue with the rest, but weight is a moot point, and untrue between the AR10 and the AR15. Anything you do to lighten an AR10, I can make even lighter in an AR15. Surely you know better than that.

 

[Variable556]

If you build or buy a 6.5 Grendel, I suggest that you buy a few extra bolts.

In about 3,000 rds. of factory and sub maximal reloads (no pressure signs evident), we are on our 3rd. bolt. The first two bolts were Les Baer bolts. When I spoke with him, Les blamed the use of a suppressor, but the 2nd bolt sheared a lug within 30rds., factory only (Wolf 120gn MPT), none using a suppressor. I bought a few Alexander Arms "hard use" bolts, but I had to wait the better part of a year to see them (ask Grendel owners about Alexander Arms delays).

Others may have better experience, but many owners report broken bolts (some Alexander Arms bolts too). While the rifle is very accurate and easily hits IPSC steel at 1200yds., I would not want to swap out a bolt in the middle of a hunt... or home defense, etc.

Can you guess which module is in our Grendel's Magpul MIAD pistol grip?



Yep, the module holding an extra bolt

I call BS on the many broken GRENDEL bolts. I've been in the Grendel game since the earliest days of the original board. If you actually have a Grendel chamber and a Grendel bolt (which you don't Nukes, and you know that (You have a .264LBC IIRC), and you don't do anything stupid handloading wise, then broken bolts are pretty rare.

If you have anything else, then yeah, sometimes you get mismatched bolts, non-spec bolts, uneven lugs, etc. Sometimes you even have aftermarket crap parts builds with uneven lug pressure that can shear a lug. Not saying Les Baer makes crap, but you'll note that his non-spec builds had that issue. AA has it's supply issues to piss me off, but please don't for a second imply their stuff is unsat or prone to breakage. Thats patently untrue. Go ask it on the actual Grendel board.

Of many thousands out there, very few people with actual Grendel chambers and actual Grendel bolts have ever reported trouble.Period

Nukes, you might call your rifle a Grendel, but it isn't really, and you know that. I recognize you from the Grendel board. I'm not saying this just to piss you off, but it's the truth and you know it.

ETA: Nukes. I apoligize for my above tone. It was correct (to the very best of my knowledge), but too harsh in tone. This thread has already been caustic, and my tone bled over. I should have disagreed with you a bit more politely. For that I was a bit of an ass.