AR15 with 90 grain berger at 2905 fps, impossible? Not so much.

[Mod Adahy]

I have a 240 TH from John, impeccable work and with fireforming Hornady 6.8 brass I'm getting around 1/2 MOA with the 105 Hornady, mag length, 2720fps. I'm not pushing them hard during FF.

I talked to John at length about the 220 TBolt and went with the 240 TH instead because I have thousands of 105's available but nowhere near that many 77's and absolutely none of the 90's. The 22TBolt with 90's is very impressive ballistics but if you want mag-fed it's not going to run... so this approach is pretty damn cool. I'm appreciating the performance an AR can dish out more and more. I have a 6 Lapua shooting a full mil flatter at 600yd but as well all know, those medium bore 6's are awfully rough on barrels.

I'm running a 22.25" 8tw tube on my 240, I'm pretty happy with with it. If I was going to do a micro-action like a cooper I'd be on the 220 TBolt in a heart beat. I might at some point go 22 cal and think about this caliber, but for now I'm going to keep focused on the 24 calibers since I run 1 bullet for both guns.

I have a 24" th also and love it with the 105 Hornady HPBT, only difference is I run the SSA brass and have no complaints except that I am stuck with that bullet and the bc is .500. Mine are at 2780 with the 105. I also wish that it would have been chambered to run the 105 at mag length instead of throated for single feeding.

 

[bohem]

I have only shot mine at mag length so far with PRI mags, I have some Berger 108's but I'm not in a hurry to pump them through the AR, I'd like to try them in the 6x47 considering what I want to use that bolt gun for.

I don't know what John throated my setup for, I told him I was really only interested in mag feeding and said "do whatever you think is best for my application". It's shooting really well so I haven't bothered to fuss with it at all.

There's another node around 2800 with the 105's in my 22" barrel but it's really hot, until I've formed all the brass I'm going to continue shooting the softer node as it's very accurate and doesn't split shoulders during FF'ing.

 

[gravityoutdoors]

Because I'm a little dense, can you confirm the recorded velocity with 90VLDs from a 20" barrel?

Can't wait to see this

 

[SPEAK338]

Your thoughts on expected barrel life?

 

[Mod Adahy]

Your thoughts on expected barrel life?

Hoping for 2500+, I have over 800 through my 24" now with all this load development crap. Tried 4320 and superformance this morning.

 

[Mod Adahy]

This morning I went out and tried Superformance. Loaded all the way to compressed and velocity sucked. 28 grains got me 2510 with 90 bergers and zero pressure signs. Not gonna use that one. Loaded some of the 77 noslers that shot well in the last 20" with 27.8 varget, in my 24" the average was 3042fps. Average in 20" is 3040fps. Maybe varget is not ideal for the 24" with the 77s. I know it is not good with the 90s. MR2000 and ar comp are coming. I have a 6.5 twist coming to test hopefully in the next couple of weeks. JFI, I have 10 pieces of brass that have been loaded 9 times and appear GTG, although the pocket tension has changed slightly.

 

[SPEAK338]

Superformance powder is not the same as whats in the loaded rounds, I couldn't get enough in a case to even get close to their velocity.
Good info here I appreciate the effort.

 

[Downzero]

Are you chambering your own barrels? How much for a barrel and bolt?

This is really impressive. I had thought the 6mm ARs based on the 7.62x39 cases were the ideal for the cartridge, but it seems you've blown that out of the water with this.

I have a 20 practical and it is absolutely wicked inside of 4-500 yards but it isn't a long range cartridge.

This would be a great upper to add to the safe.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Superformance powder is not the same as whats in the loaded rounds, I couldn't get enough in a case to even get close to their velocity.
Good info here I appreciate the effort.

I knew it was not the same but thought it was worth a try. No where near enough case to get the velocity where we need it.

 

[sandwarrior]

Thanks for doing this test. I've been on the edge of buying Superformance powder a number of times but was never sure it would really give what I hoped for. Interpolating what loads are giving what, I think it would be best to just buy Superformance cartridges of your choice if you want their performance. As you see, and I thought, they aren't going to give you the same performance.

Also, quick question, are you running any freebore in your chambering? If so, how much, if I may ask?

 

[Mod Adahy]

Thanks for doing this test. I've been on the edge of buying Superformance powder a number of times but was never sure it would really give what I hoped for. Interpolating what loads are giving what, I think it would be best to just buy Superformance cartridges of your choice if you want their performance. As you see, and I thought, they aren't going to give you the same performance.

Also, quick question, are you running any freebore in your chambering? If so, how much, if I may ask?

There is freebore and that has been part of this reamer. Took 6 reamers to get it right and to get the velocity. Don't ask how many barrels we went through to find it. Not been easy on my Smith and he burnt some midnight oil for me.

 

[Downzero]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how this would compare to the same cartridge necked to 6mm? A 107 or 115 is going to be quite a bit heavier, but their BCs are significantly higher. I'm going to run some numbers on this.

 

[steve123]

Does anyone have any thoughts on how this would compare to the same cartridge necked to 6mm? A 107 or 115 is going to be quite a bit heavier, but their BCs are significantly higher. I'm going to run some numbers on this.

115's end up taking too much powder capacity up at mag length so you can't get the velocity high enough to make it worth while. 7.5 twist is better for 115's especially at the lower velocities the smaller capacity cases have. Then there's the BC issues, 115's don't have much more than 105's.

The Berger 95 vld 6mm is worth experimenting with because of .49BC and the speed attainable.

After playing with the 6mmART I'd rather try the 5.6DMR for these reasons.

1. Heavy 22 caliber bullets are shorter than 6mm heavies and fit in the mag better allowing more powder space in the case.

2. Heavy 22's can be driven as fast or faster velocities.

2. 22 heavy's have as high or a higher BC except for the 115 6mm's which are not a good choice for small cases as described above.

3. 22 bullets have less raw material weight which usually costs the shooter less.

4. Recoil and muzzle rise is less which aids in getting back on target quicker and spotting your own shots.

5. 6.8 and it's wildcats generally function in AR's better because it's smaller in diameter and there are high quality mags available.

6. More mass in the AR bolt head equals less chance of bolt fatigue and breakage.

 

[ranger1183]

115's end up taking too much powder capacity up at mag length so you can't get the velocity high enough to make it worth while. 7.5 twist is better for 115's especially at the lower velocities the smaller capacity cases have. Then there's the BC issues, 115's don't have much more than 105's.

The Berger 95 vld 6mm is worth experimenting with because of .49BC and the speed attainable.

After playing with the 6mmART I'd rather try the 5.6DMR for these reasons.

1. Heavy 22 caliber bullets are shorter than 6mm heavies and fit in the mag better allowing more powder space in the case.

2. Heavy 22's can be driven as fast or faster velocities.

2. 22 heavy's have as high or a higher BC except for the 115 6mm's which are not a good choice for small cases as described above.

3. 22 bullets have less raw material weight which usually costs the shooter less.

4. Recoil and muzzle rise is less which aids in getting back on target quicker and spotting your own shots.

5. 6.8 and it's wildcats generally function in AR's better because it's smaller in diameter and there are high quality mags available.

6. More mass in the AR bolt head equals less chance of bolt fatigue and breakage.

That is some solid reasoning there. Thanks for sharing!

 

[sakobob]

tag. and how would this perform with a slower twist and varmint weight bullets? near 22-250 numbers?
great work azprc .

 

[Mod Adahy]

Only run down to 75 grain bergers and got to 3280 but encountered pressure. Will try 52's this coming weekend. I might have some 40's hiding

 

[Mod Adahy]

And I have a 10 twist to try also.

 

[1slow01z71]

Ive had good luck with the 50gr vmax out of my 20" I bet they would go 4k in this cartridge.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Ive had good luck with the 50gr vmax out of my 20" I bet they would go 4k in this cartridge.

How fast are the 50's on your 20" 223?

 

[1slow01z71]

How fast are the 50's on your 20" 223?

Not sure, as I didn't have a chrono the last time I ran them over the summer. My load is 26.8 of varget(will be switching to CFE or WC844) which out of a 20" tube ought to be pretty quick. Hornady quotes 3400 for the hotter loads and that's out of a 16" barrel although it doesn't list varget for that bullet weight as Im sure its probably too slow burning for that light of a bullet and a 16" barrel. I get a pretty complete burn out of my 20" though.

 

[Downzero]

tag. and how would this perform with a slower twist and varmint weight bullets? near 22-250 numbers?
great work azprc .

20 Practical is AWESOME for that, 40s at 3800, 32s at 4k+

115's end up taking too much powder capacity up at mag length so you can't get the velocity high enough to make it worth while. 7.5 twist is better for 115's especially at the lower velocities the smaller capacity cases have. Then there's the BC issues, 115's don't have much more than 105's.

The Berger 95 vld 6mm is worth experimenting with because of .49BC and the speed attainable.

After playing with the 6mmART I'd rather try the 5.6DMR for these reasons.

1. Heavy 22 caliber bullets are shorter than 6mm heavies and fit in the mag better allowing more powder space in the case.

2. Heavy 22's can be driven as fast or faster velocities.

2. 22 heavy's have as high or a higher BC except for the 115 6mm's which are not a good choice for small cases as described above.

3. 22 bullets have less raw material weight which usually costs the shooter less.

4. Recoil and muzzle rise is less which aids in getting back on target quicker and spotting your own shots.

5. 6.8 and it's wildcats generally function in AR's better because it's smaller in diameter and there are high quality mags available.

6. More mass in the AR bolt head equals less chance of bolt fatigue and breakage.

I am inclined to think you're right.

If the 107s and 115s are out of the question, 6mm isn't so great. And VLDs will be a crapshoot if jumped, maybe they'll shoot and maybe they won't, so that's too much of a gamble if you ask me. I have never shot a 90 grain .22 in anything but it does really look promising.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Video added

Here is a quick video we did today. POA was an 8" square hole in the middle of the rock face and it is almost dead middle of the screen. You will see splash shortly after starting the video. This is out of my 24" and not from the prone position. I will upload a pic of the FFP in a few.

 

[Mod Adahy]

tag. and how would this perform with a slower twist and varmint weight bullets? near 22-250 numbers?
great work azprc .

Shot 53 grain hornady hpbt with ar comp and got 3790 out of 24". 28.2 grains

 

[ranger1183]

Here is a quick video we did today. POA was an 8" square hole in the middle of the rock face and it is almost dead middle of the screen. You will see splash shortly after starting the video. This is out of my 24" and not from the prone position. I will upload a pic of the FFP in a few.

I watched this video a dozen times and still couldn't see a splash. It sucks getting old.

Anyway, I emailed for info on buying .220 Thunderbolt brass, Dies, ready-to-go AR-15 barrel and bolt. Heck, if I was thinking I would have asked for a complete upper that was range ready. Hopefully I'll be shooting one of these soon.

 

[aviumvenator]

Splash

This might help. Watch around the hole that the arrow is pointing toward.

 

[Mod Adahy]

I watched this video a dozen times and still couldn't see a splash. It sucks getting old.

Anyway, I emailed for info on buying .220 Thunderbolt brass, Dies, ready-to-go AR-15 barrel and bolt. Heck, if I was thinking I would have asked for a complete upper that was range ready. Hopefully I'll be shooting one of these soon.

Sent pm.

 

[Mod Adahy]

This might help. Watch around the hole that the arrow is pointing toward.

Thanks. It was a last minutedecision to try to video

 

[1slow01z71]

Any chance you can try some 75gr Amaxs? I see those as the "cheap plinker" bullet for this round. At 30 cents a round for the berger I don't much see the point other than that you can. At that price you can sling 6.5CM and better down range. Ive got a ton of 75 amaxs on backorder and would use those mainly except for the occasional box of bergers to show off what a 22cal bullet can do. Im interested to see what barrel life is, my 20" AR is begging for a rebarrel to this since Ive got a 6.8SPC build in the works, buying brass in bulk would be a big plus for me as well. The 75gr amaxs are nasty on varmints as well. Did I miss what kind of money we are talking for a barrel and bolt? Is the bolt individually headspaced to that barrel?

 

[Drifter™]

Excellent work.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Any chance you can try some 75gr Amaxs? I see those as the "cheap plinker" bullet for this round. At 30 cents a round for the berger I don't much see the point other than that you can. At that price you can sling 6.5CM and better down range. Ive got a ton of 75 amaxs on backorder and would use those mainly except for the occasional box of bergers to show off what a 22cal bullet can do. Im interested to see what barrel life is, my 20" AR is begging for a rebarrel to this since Ive got a 6.8SPC build in the works, buying brass in bulk would be a big plus for me as well. The 75gr amaxs are nasty on varmints as well. Did I miss what kind of money we are talking for a barrel and bolt? Is the bolt individually headspaced to that barrel?

I am working with a manufacturer to make them available. No info on the 75 amax specifically but I have run the 75 berger and 77 nosler, both end up around 3080fps out of a 20.5".

 

[1slow01z71]

I just like the 75gr amax because they've got a nice BC and theyre cheap at half the price of the bergers and on par with the nosler CCs but a much better BC. Any speculation on what theyd do out of a 24" pipe? That would be the hard decision for me, stay with a 20" or go up to a 24"...

 

[Mod Adahy]

I just like the 75gr amax because they've got a nice BC and theyre cheap at half the price of the bergers and on par with the nosler CCs but a much better BC. Any speculation on what theyd do out of a 24" pipe? That would be the hard decision for me, stay with a 20" or go up to a 24"...

I get the 75 bergers at 3115ish out of 24" is my accuracy node, I have pushed them as fast as 3260. Not sure of bearing surface difference on the amax. Probably gonna be pretty close on velocity.

 

[Mod Adahy]

I just like the 75gr amax because they've got a nice BC and theyre cheap at half the price of the bergers and on par with the nosler CCs but a much better BC. Any speculation on what theyd do out of a 24" pipe? That would be the hard decision for me, stay with a 20" or go up to a 24"...

Shot it last night with 75 amax, got 3175 before pressure out of a 24". JFI

 

[1slow01z71]

Damn that's awesome. Any speculation on barrel life? Im really liking what I see. Once I get through my currect stock of bullets which should be end of the summer, Ill be ready for one of these. What type of rifling? In a perfect world Id like one like my WOA SDM

With the larger diameter under the handguard and the flutes I can shoot quite a bit faster while still keeping good groups. My buddy and I will do 10 shot races where we will shoot 10 shots in under a minute and that barrel will still hold sub moa even with my relatively hot 77gr loads.

This thing is begging for one of your barrels

Im thinking a 20" would get me 3000fps with the 75gr amaxs which would be plenty for me. Im guessing by PRI mag length you mean 2.3"? Im doing some testing with the 75 amaxs with a PRI mag in a 223, admittedly the round looks goofy as the ogive is below the case mouth slightly but Im trying to find a good long range standard 223 load using CFE and I like tinkering.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Damn that's awesome. Any speculation on barrel life? Im really liking what I see. Once I get through my currect stock of bullets which should be end of the summer, Ill be ready for one of these. What type of rifling? In a perfect world Id like one like my WOA SDM

With the larger diameter under the handguard and the flutes I can shoot quite a bit faster while still keeping good groups. My buddy and I will do 10 shot races where we will shoot 10 shots in under a minute and that barrel will still hold sub moa even with my relatively hot 77gr loads.

This thing is begging for one of your barrels

Im thinking a 20" would get me 3000fps with the 75gr amaxs which would be plenty for me. Im guessing by PRI mag length you mean 2.3"? Im doing some testing with the 75 amaxs with a PRI mag in a 223, admittedly the round looks goofy as the ogive is below the case mouth slightly but Im trying to find a good long range standard 223 load using CFE and I like tinkering.

Nice gun. I would say the node is gonna be around 3100 ish with the 75 amax. They will not require pri mags since the coal is around 2.240" with the amax. So any 6.8 mag would work. No idea on barrel life. I am hoping for 2500 or more, although I believe that number to be soft. I have over 1100 rounds through my 24" at this point, I am shooting approx 200 ish on sunday, then loaning to a friend to try. So by late next week, it will have 1500 ish. It is still better than one moa right now.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Just finished the final bushing mod and it is good to go. Cut shoulder out of 6.8 redding die and insert modded bushing. Just sized 150 of them in 20 minutes.

 

[lte82]

Cool concept you have going on. I still like my 6mm turbo improved but with the berger 90s I think this little 22 caliber will perform as good or better. 2900 fps with a berger 90gr is impressive to say the least.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Cool concept you have going on. I still like my 6mm turbo improved but with the berger 90s I think this little 22 caliber will perform as good or better. 2900 fps with a berger 90gr is impressive to say the least.

How fast with the 105's out of the turbo?

 

[lte82]

How fast with the 105's out of the turbo?

2850 give or take. I think some folks are getting a little over 2900, but they must have magic powder or a longer barrel. Mine is only 26".

 

[1slow01z71]

Did you measure the lands when it was new? If so can you measure them now to see what sort of throat erosion youre getting? Id imagine this thing should have barrel life into the very high 2000s since the 6CM is getting a little over 3K and while this is a smaller diameter cartridge youre also using less powder. The 6mms are very good performers but expensive to feed(relatively), Id rather shoot 6.5CM or 308 once Im up to paying for 6mm bullets. The 75gr amax is 33% cheaper than the 105 amax, sure it doesn't perform as well but lets be honest if youre after supreme accuracy the AR15 platform isn't the one to use. Having the 90gr bergers at least gives the option to show off if need be.

If this works out it sure would be nice to buy a barrel with headspaced bolt and a set of dies all from the same place.

 

[Big_Rig_416]

Very cool. I hope this catches on, Really interesting thread! Thumbs up

 

[steve123]

2850 give or take. I think some folks are getting a little over 2900, but they must have magic powder or a longer barrel. Mine is only 26".

I had the 6mmART 40 degree shoulder and a 26" barrel. 2875 fps/H4895/105 amax, it was a very accurate load but was also a very stiff load which caused some reliability issues. 2800 fps was the next node down and 2740 fps was the next lower node. Only problem was 2740 fps didn't do as good in the wind.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Did you measure the lands when it was new? If so can you measure them now to see what sort of throat erosion youre getting? Id imagine this thing should have barrel life into the very high 2000s since the 6CM is getting a little over 3K and while this is a smaller diameter cartridge youre also using less powder. The 6mms are very good performers but expensive to feed(relatively), Id rather shoot 6.5CM or 308 once Im up to paying for 6mm bullets. The 75gr amax is 33% cheaper than the 105 amax, sure it doesn't perform as well but lets be honest if youre after supreme accuracy the AR15 platform isn't the one to use. Having the 90gr bergers at least gives the option to show off if need be.

If this works out it sure would be nice to buy a barrel with headspaced bolt and a set of dies all from the same place.

Your last sentence is happening as we speak. Big news coming in the next couple of weeks. Just shot it today with re15 and cci 41 and averaged 2927 for three shots. Took 8.3 Mils to 1080 yards at 6400 da.

 

[lte82]

Have you tried the berger 82 hybrids yet?

 

[Mod Adahy]

Nope. No listing on bergers site.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Interesting stuff Brad!

 

[Mod Adahy]

Just talked to a friend that has one of these barrels with the 90's but in 20.5". Same powder charge as my 24", got 2842, 2812, 2804,2814 out of the 20". I normally get 2825 out of mine with the same charge. These numbers lend us to believe that there is no difference but we both used different chronos. Take those numbers for what you want. My 24 and 20 show real close to same numbers. I am not sure what muzzle pressure is, but the 20 is louder than the 24 and the recoil seems less with the 20". I am wondering if we are out of case capacity with the 24". Ideal barrel length is probably gonna be 20-22" with the 90 grain bullets. Not sure about the ideal barrel length with the 75's.

 

[Mod Adahy]

Pic of target shot by friend in Texas. This is a target at 300 yards shot through a 20" DMR with 77grain Noslers. I am not seeing that velocity to be consistent with what my chronos have shown. He is calling the flyer to left as him, but with that included we are around 2" at 300 yards. Appears to be .66 moa for 5 shots. He said wind was 10-15 mph. I believe the true chrono numbers are around 3100, jfi. Each square is 1".

 

[lte82]

Nope. No listing on bergers site.

Yea I was wrong... it's just the 82 BT

 

[Mod Adahy]

Pics of recently completed 20".

and