He certainly indicated a good reason, which was mentioned above already:
“Our receivers could easily handle that if they could be held in a way that would not result in damage during tightening.”
Reading skills are important.
- Thread starter karagias
- Start date
“Our receivers could easily handle that if they could be held in a way that would not result in damage during tightening.”
Reading skills are important.
You are way overthinking this Cody. To the point of it being redundant and argumentative.sure he did, he said it was cheap insurance.
I don't need insurance, self insured.
that said, apparently it interferes with the gauges so I may be forced into trying 100-150lbs if that's what it takes for headspace to be in the ballpark
I always thought headspace was determined by shoulder.
Well, yeah but I don’t even see where going over 150 ft/lbs is relevant.
The designer and manufacture says to torque to 100 ft/lbs and not to exceed 150 ft/lbs. don’t want to follow his direction, no problem. It’s your gun.
But I have no idea why the possible impact of going over 150 is even being discussed?
The designer and manufacture says to torque to 100 ft/lbs and not to exceed 150 ft/lbs. don’t want to follow his direction, no problem. It’s your gun.
But I have no idea why the possible impact of going over 150 is even being discussed?
honestly, price and metallurgy. as what's his face said, I was over thinking it. i dont understand how these machines and teds ideas can cut prices in half in a few short years. I'm just too excited. not even worried about anything, thinking I'm going to take it to my gunsmith the first time with all my crap and watch him do it so I don't waste my time or brass.
also I think I read tacops does like 500 or some insane number and it was on my mind.
Relative to other industries and applications, machining an action is relatively simple. CNC machines have been available for more than a good while with the capability needed to make custom actions. I think (but I'm probably wrong) that the cost has more been driven by the limited scale of manufacture.
Regarding the barrel torque, in other applications joints similar in size to the barrel/action interface are typically torqued much higher. 500ft-lbs isn't insane at all.
I’m not sure that Mike ever actually shared what he torques to…but the consensus is that it’s quite high. But I could easily be wrong about that.
Do you or your smith have the CDG action wrench that has a screw to go thru the action to the wrench? Intended to keep it from slipping and preclude possible damage to the action? Or at least that’s my vague understanding of why he incorporated that feature.
I’m sure you will be fine and best of luck w your new rifle.
yessir, ordered the wrench with the action. I'll take it to him. he probably has gizmos of his own but I wanted one for me anyway.
Warning that I did 150lbs and had to send my action and barrel back to PVA to have them fix it. Go gauge would not work.. They did there magic and redid the barrel ceracote and laser engraving.. Yes broke a couple cheap breaker bars.. Not sure what I was thinking.. Trying to get the logo to center at the top.. Found out some thing are not meant to be.
So let us know how it goes at 150 or 500lbs.. Doubt you will want to post after that.
So let us know how it goes at 150 or 500lbs.. Doubt you will want to post after that.
Try torquing the wing attach bolts on an F-16.
To say we had to use a long cheater bar is an understatement.
Hell, the torque wrench itself was close to 6' long.
Because it's completely unnecessary and it's a huge motherfucker to remove.
Add in some kind of lube and the huge motherfucker becomes a complete, ginormous pain in the fucking ass that requires a stout bench, a big cheater bar and a fat friend to help you break it loose.
The last barrel I installed for a friend went on at 125lb/ft per his request.
I couldn't get it to come loose with an internal action wrench and a 20" bar.
Thanks to @lash I had his external wrench at my house. I was able to get that fucking barrel off.
It got a good cleaning and went back on at 80lb/ft.
Disclaimer. I am neither the fat friend nor the guy that had my barrel torqued to 125.
I did however, loan Mike the external wrench.
I’d bet it has to do with the limits of the wrench to action interface.
If you use a breaker bar with less flex, like a 3/4" bar (w/ 1/2" reducer) over a 1/2" bar, they will pop free much easier.
I have a 24", 1" drive that I've been looking for an excuse to use.
I'll have to find my step down adapters to use it.
Or, just not tighten shit up that much and make life easier on the other end.
Exactly why and what did PVA do to fix it. It actually sounds like an ill fitting pre-fit to me as torquing it to Ted's 100-150 ft/lbs spec should not have resulted in headspace failure.
There are still corner cases. My son is responsible for the upkeep on my rifle, the one uses. He's only 98#. Even with 80# tightened barrels, it's a lot of effort. I worry about things backing out / slipping / while he's working at max effort. Picking the right bar just makes it go more smoothly.
I get that, but proper technique helps prevent most slippage.
The number of people I've watched jerking on torque wrenches and breaker bars is unreal. It's a sure way to get yourself or someone else hurt. Jerking on a torque wrench guarantees improper torque.
The old adage, when in doubt, get a bigger hammer, works.
Or, was that never force anything, get a bigger hammer?
It's been so long I can't remember...
It was, when in doubt use the BMFH (big mother fucking hammer).
But yeah, proper use of a torque wrench was a constant issue in production. That and guys “losing” them when it came time to check calibration.
ETA: using a reducer fitting or extension will also affect end torque, but that’s less of an issue if the proper technique is used.
All three of my ARC actions are torqued to 150lbs, and I pull my barrels to clean them. I’m not fat and don’t know anyone who is.
I've tested a number of them, and if it's just a reducer (say ... under 1" in length), any amount of torque lost is insignificant.
Right…a reducer or extension will not change torque. Even if it was 50’ long. Well, perhaps some small fraction of a percent to the steel flexing along the torsional axis.
A crow foot or anything that changes the length of the moment arm most certainly will.
But I digress…
All this talk of torque specs, but nobody has brought up how applying anti-seize effects this. If you are using anti-seize (you should be), you will achieve a higher clamping force at the same torque value. I torqued my barrel to 80 ft/lb.
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In that instance yes. Varies based on what you use, many manufacturers of lube, threadlocker, antisieze, etc provide a torque reduction value per product. Went down this rabbithole with sparkplugs because if you don't reduce your torque value appropriately, you can actually damage the plug beyond functioning due to internal stretch (and some plugs have an antisieze plating and very specifically shouldn't have additional product applied).
I asked Fritz at Black Canyon about antisieze and was told Copper or Nickel antisieze is good to go. Given his reputation I feel good with that.
Never heard of her, or black canyon, so I’m not sure what reputation you’re referring to, but I’ll repeat, I’d never use a metal based anti-seize on a barrel tenon.
Kelbly’s has this to say:
"Before installing a new barrel, apply EP-2 (NCGI Grade 2) or equivalent bearing grease on the barrel threads and shoulder tenon or receiver face. Do not use metallic based “anti- seize” compounds."
Carbonsix has to say:
When installing a new CarbonSix Barrel, clean the treads on the barrel, receiver and barrel nut (if there is one) and lube the threads with anti-seize. Use the proper anti-seize for stainless steel as it differs from chromoly anti-seize.
Henkel has this to say about it "However, it is important to remember that while many compounds exist for stainless steel, copper anti-seize on stainless steel will create inter-crystalline corrosion which can cause parts to crack or break when under heavy loads." https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/at/en/products/industrial-lubricants/anti-seize-compounds.html
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Interesting info, wonder why something with such a low temperature rating is recommended and what the downsides of the metallic antisieze are given it is specifically recommended against?
"Intergranular corrosion???? Don't you tell me about intergranular corrossion....you got a thousand dollar barrel on a two thousand dollar action and along comes Mr. intergranular.......weelllll....... Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies......"
If you’re getting your stainless precision rifle barrel over 120°c on the tenon threads, you’ve got other problems.
Could be a reason that there are many different recommendations to put on thread tenons...... Because the threads don't really give a fuck what you use.
Just a thought....
Just a thought....
Henkel recommends metal based Nickel Anti-seize on stainless steel parts.
That's exactly why I used 80lb/ft when I reinstalled that barrel.
I ain't fat enough to break the tight ones loose without pulling a hammie.
The central lugs on our cars get 610Nm, use it every couple of days…. So I can be or are the fat oneThat's exactly why I used 80lb/ft when I reinstalled that barrel.
I ain't fat enough to break the tight ones loose without pulling a hammie.
There seems to be some contradictions in Henkel statements on the use of copper anti-seize. Perhaps it is in special use cases where nickel is preferred.
The technical data sheet for the copper based LOCTITE LB 8008 or C5-A states:
LOCTITE® LB 8008 C5-ATM provides a shield against high temperature seizing and galling. All mated parts, studs, bolts, flanges and gaskets, remove more easily and in cleaner and better condition. This product can be used on copper, brass, cast iron, steel, all alloys including stainless steel, all plastics and all non-metallic gasketing materials. Typical applications include original equipment and maintenance, and equipment associated with petroleum chemicals, steel mills, power plants, marine and foundries. This product is typically used in applications with an operating range of -29 °C to +982 °C.
Their nickel based anti-seize is only available in larger quantities than most hobbyist or shade tree mechanics need. Luckily small tubes of Permatex 77134 nickel anti-seize is readily available in small tubes.
Just build another 65cm ARC CDG, this one using a Proof CF BBL spun up by PVA 1:8… break in for no copper residue was 5 rounds. Awesome.
Continuing the subject of anti-seize on CDG barrel tenons, I find its always informative to actually ask the company who makes the product. From ARC (underlining added by me):
"Good morning,
It is 100% necessary to use anti-seize when installing a barrel on one of our actions. We have always used copper based anti seize, the image below is the exact type we've used in our complete rifles. 100 ft-lbs is our recommended torque. Hope this helps!"
