Envision MARS-L Announced - Wilcox RAPTAR Killer?

[Rhed]

I like that Envision priced the Mil spec version same as the Civ version. Still don’t know what’s their policy on what to the extent of creds needed for the the Mil version. I know that L3Harris, Wilcox,

“No need…” But, but, but I want it.

You know, for stuff…!

If you need IR, you can still get low power version of the Raptar. I don’t know how well low power of the IR and VIS is, as I have the high power version. But at least it’s there. All the same bells and whistles (1550nm RF), but with IR and VIS.

Wilcox RAPTAR S (Low Power)

57300G02-01-LB, Wilcox RAPTAR S - Low Power

ownthenight.com

 

[CR2 Dude]

I like that Envision priced the Mil spec version same as the Civ version. Still don’t know what’s their policy on what to the extent of creds needed for the the Mil version. I know that L3Harris, Wilcox,

If you need IR, you can still get low power version of the Raptar. I don’t know how well low power of the IR and VIS is, as I have the high power version. But at least it’s there. All the same bells and whistles (1550nm RF), but with IR and VIS.

Wilcox RAPTAR S (Low Power)

57300G02-01-LB, Wilcox RAPTAR S - Low Power

ownthenight.com

I am THE retailer at this point so I can answer the “creds” question. As I’ll be the one validating your creds. To be clear there will be two other retailers at some point, total of three from what I’ve been told, not sure when that will be.

The people who make up Envision-tec have been in this game for a while. And have seen the regulations on what does and does not qualify for “Creds” be blurred from time to time. A lot of people don’t know but this whole laser thing is regulated by the FDA. And they’re a pain to deal with.

So I have been instructed that the only way a Mil model with be sold is to a Mil unit for Mil use. That’s it.

None of the, ”I have a Mil ID, or I’m in such and such SOF unit, but it’s for my personal gun.”

If it’s for work then it will be delivered to your work address. If it’s for you personally then it will be a CIV model and can go to your house or personal non-governmental business.

Hope that helps

 

[Evolution 9]

The low power on the RAPTAR is almost unusable. You’d be better off having two devices, one for range finding and one for aiming/illuminating.

 

[Rhed]

The low power on the RAPTAR is almost unusable. You’d be better off having two devices, one for range finding and one for aiming/illuminating.

Yea, I have the low power section on my Raptar. Never did see how it performs. Always using high power. Gonna see how it looks tonight maybe.

 

[Ronin_64]

I like that Envision priced the Mil spec version same as the Civ version. Still don’t know what’s their policy on what to the extent of creds needed for the the Mil version. I know that L3Harris, Wilcox,

If you need IR, you can still get low power version of the Raptar. I don’t know how well low power of the IR and VIS is, as I have the high power version. But at least it’s there. All the same bells and whistles (1550nm RF), but with IR and VIS.

Wilcox RAPTAR S (Low Power)

57300G02-01-LB, Wilcox RAPTAR S - Low Power

ownthenight.com

Yeah, as everyone is saying - Raptar low power is useless. I had bought one of the group buy hi power Raptors in the last go around. Sold it in anticipation of new offerings and decided I valued AB software over the IR laser capability. I was being a bit facetious in whining about the Envision. I would like to have the IR laser but it is not a deal breaker. MARS is in my future.

Ronin

 

[Rhed]

Yeah, as everyone is saying - Raptar low power is useless. I had bought one of the group buy hi power Raptors in the last go around. Sold it in anticipation of new offerings and decided I valued AB software over the IR laser capability. I was being a bit facetious in whining about the Envision. I would like to have the IR laser but it is not a deal breaker. MARS is in my future.

Ronin

Was your HI power 3rd gen Raptar 01 model? Or a unlock (03) model? Low power 02 is 3rd gen which is civ current model.

 

[Ronin_64]

It was the unlocked model. I thought it worked well enough, just didn't have the AB.

Ronin

 

[window2time]

How far out (range performance), has the MARS been able to hang with the 21’s?

I've been ranging road signs today and the results have been better than I expected.

I ranged a yellow sign for a 35 mph curve at 2008 yards with the Vector 21 and I got the exact same range with the MARS-Lc. I don't know what the beam divergence is but I would guess the beam is larger than that target at that distance.

I ranged a stop sign at 4018 yards with the Vector 21 and it measured 4020 yards with the MARS-Lc. Those targets must be much smaller than the beam at that distance and I don't know whether those are accurate ranges. It may just be reflecting off of terrain behind the stop sign. Regardless, the MARS is much closer to the Vector 21 performance than I anticipated.

From my experience, road signs are very reflective and this kind of performance is likely not going to happen on a less reflective target. Regardless, I'm surprised to see the performance comparing so well to the Vector 21.

The MARS-Lc ranges pretty quickly and I didn't find myself feeling like I was waiting for a reading. It does have a couple different modes including "speed" and "precision". It also has a scan mode that works in either "speed" or "precision". I used it mostly in the speed mode but I did try the precision mode and it does take one or two seconds for the range to be displayed in that mode.

I have had very few occasions where the MARS was unable to get a range on anything within a reasonable distance. However, I did just have a situation where it would not read the distance to the side of a house. The sun was behind me and I think was creating some reflectivity issues. The Vector 21 was able to range the same house at 1756 yards and it could range it every time without fail. I switched the MARS from Speed mode to Precision mode and it ranged the house at 1758 yards. In precision mode it successfully ranged that house every time I tried.

Overall, the MARS-Lc performance is exceeding my expectations. I don't shoot past 1760 yards and I feel confident that the MARS will meet my needs very well. It will be fun to see what kind of performance others get from this unit.

 

[CR2 Dude]

I've been ranging road signs today and the results have been better than I expected.

I ranged a yellow sign for a 35 mph curve at 2008 yards with the Vector 21 and I got the exact same range with the MARS-Lc. I don't know what the beam divergence is but I would guess the beam is larger than that target at that distance.

I ranged a stop sign at 4018 yards with the Vector 21 and it measured 4020 yards with the MARS-Lc. Those targets must be much smaller than the beam at that distance and I don't know whether those are accurate ranges. It may just be reflecting off of terrain behind the stop sign. Regardless, the MARS is much closer to the Vector 21 performance than I anticipated.

From my experience, road signs are very reflective and this kind of performance is likely not going to happen on a less reflective target. Regardless, I'm surprised to see the performance comparing so well to the Vector 21.

The MARS-Lc ranges pretty quickly and I didn't find myself feeling like I was waiting for a reading. It does have a couple different modes including "speed" and "precision". It also has a scan mode that works in either "speed" or "precision". I used it mostly in the speed mode but I did try the precision mode and it does take one or two seconds for the range to be displayed in that mode.

I have had very few occasions where the MARS was unable to get a range on anything within a reasonable distance. However, I did just have a situation where it would not read the distance to the side of a house. The sun was behind me and I think was creating some reflectivity issues. The Vector 21 was able to range the same house at 1756 yards and it could range it every time without fail. I switched the MARS from Speed mode to Precision mode and it ranged the house at 1758 yards. In precision mode it successfully ranged that house every time I tried.

Overall, the MARS-Lc performance is exceeding my expectations. I don't shoot past 1760 yards and I feel confident that the MARS will meet my needs very well. It will be fun to see what kind of performance others get from this unit.

View attachment 8026067

Man that’s really great feedback. Thanks for keeping us up to date. If you get any cool pics of your MARS-Lc in action we’d love to use them on our website.

 

[Alpine 338]

I've been ranging road signs today and the results have been better than I expected.

I ranged a yellow sign for a 35 mph curve at 2008 yards with the Vector 21 and I got the exact same range with the MARS-Lc. I don't know what the beam divergence is but I would guess the beam is larger than that target at that distance.

I ranged a stop sign at 4018 yards with the Vector 21 and it measured 4020 yards with the MARS-Lc. Those targets must be much smaller than the beam at that distance and I don't know whether those are accurate ranges. It may just be reflecting off of terrain behind the stop sign. Regardless, the MARS is much closer to the Vector 21 performance than I anticipated.

From my experience, road signs are very reflective and this kind of performance is likely not going to happen on a less reflective target. Regardless, I'm surprised to see the performance comparing so well to the Vector 21.

The MARS-Lc ranges pretty quickly and I didn't find myself feeling like I was waiting for a reading. It does have a couple different modes including "speed" and "precision". It also has a scan mode that works in either "speed" or "precision". I used it mostly in the speed mode but I did try the precision mode and it does take one or two seconds for the range to be displayed in that mode.

I have had very few occasions where the MARS was unable to get a range on anything within a reasonable distance. However, I did just have a situation where it would not read the distance to the side of a house. The sun was behind me and I think was creating some reflectivity issues. The Vector 21 was able to range the same house at 1756 yards and it could range it every time without fail. I switched the MARS from Speed mode to Precision mode and it ranged the house at 1758 yards. In precision mode it successfully ranged that house every time I tried.

Overall, the MARS-Lc performance is exceeding my expectations. I don't shoot past 1760 yards and I feel confident that the MARS will meet my needs very well. It will be fun to see what kind of performance others get from this unit.

View attachment 8026067

How did you get one soon quickly?

Can you take some pictures of the display with the read- out, maybe put a ruler under it so we can have reference of the display character size, unless you can measure with a set of calipers.

 

[deepsea]

How did you get one soon quickly?

Can you take some pictures of the display with the read- out, maybe put a ruler under it so we can have reference of the display character size, unless you can measure with a set of calipers.

Display is 0.75in x 0.75in. And the good news is the unit does have a cant indicator so you don’t have to buy a bubble level anymore and can save some coin there.

 

[window2time]

How did you get one soon quickly?

Can you take some pictures of the display with the read- out, maybe put a ruler under it so we can have reference of the display character size, unless you can measure with a set of calipers.

I placed my order roughly 9 months ago shortly after this thread started. Obviously there wasn't much known about the product and I probably wasn't very smart for jumping in with so little information but that is what I did.

My eyes are 59 years old, I wear glasses and I don't have any trouble reading the data from my shooting position. I do have to raise my head up a little to get a clear view past the turret but I stay in my shooting position and just move my head a little.

When you go into the menus and start changing the settings, everything gets smaller and harder to read but I still don't have any trouble.

 

[Conqueror]

@window2time has it connected easily to your kestrel? Any issues with connectivity, sharing rifle profiles, etc?

 

[window2time]

@window2time has it connected easily to your kestrel? Any issues with connectivity, sharing rifle profiles, etc?

super easy connection to my Kestrel. As I told someone who messaged me privately, within a couple minutes of receiving the unit from my UPS driver, I had all my guns loaded from my Kestrel and the MARS was ready to use. It all felt very familiar because the AB engine works just like any of the other AB devices. All the ballistic fields, settings, etc are the same.

I didn't trust it at first and ran my Kestrel along side it for a while to double check the dope coming out of the MARS but of course it matched perfectly what was coming out of my Kestrel. This thing is easy to use.

 

[NousDefious]

What is the deal with "neutered" Raptars? Is this something to look out for if buying a new HP one?

 

[Ronin_64]

What is the deal with "neutered" Raptars? Is this something to look out for if buying a new HP one?

If you send in a civilian owned/privately owned HP Raptar to Wilcox for repairs, Wilcox will neuter it unless you can prove LEO/.Gov cred

 

[Conqueror]

What is the deal with "neutered" Raptars? Is this something to look out for if buying a new HP one?

All civ IR devices are neutered from the factory. Most companies that make them will not return it to you with the high-power laser if you send it for repair and can’t prove you are LEO/mil. Like if you send in a salty MAWL DA you got on tacswap and don’t have creds, BE Meyers will probably not return the DA head to you and might swap it for a C1+.

 

[NousDefious]

If you send in a civilian owned/privately owned HP Raptar to Wilcox for repairs, Wilcox will neuter it unless you can prove LEO/.Gov cred

That is very interesting and pretty effed up. So I'm assuming it is just a software option in the code?

 

[Rhed]

So in short, any restricted lasers, one shouldn’t even get it if you don’t have creds for it. Even if you have the opportunity to buy one used, one shouldn’t. Or your fucked if you have to send in for repairs.. Besides, it wouldn’t be a problem to get any HP laser in the first’s place as long as you have creds for it. Then that unit is specifically registered to you..

 

[NousDefious]

So what happens if you have the creds and purchase one then retire from your job?

 

[Rhed]

That is very interesting and pretty effed up. So I'm assuming it is just a software option in the code?

An unlocked raptar is illegal to begin with anyways. I think that was the older models to my understanding. Present models (02) civ versions is built on low power. But you still get the same 1550nm ranging with AB. And low power vis and IR. If you have creds, the HI power (01) is available to purchase also.

 

[Rhed]

So what happens if you have the creds and purchase one then retire from your job?

It was already approved and registered to you. And in record..

 

[Conqueror]

High power lasers are not illegal to own but they are illegal to sell to civilians. So if you get your hands on a grey market one, you are not committing a crime by owning it. But Wilcox/BE/L3/etc do not want the liability and/or FDA headaches involved with giving a retina killer to a civilian so they will fuck you over if you ever need a repair.

To be honest most civilians have no real use for a full-power aiming laser since it will bloom your nods out badly, the biggest reason to buy a HP unit in the past was to get the stronger IR illuminator, but nowadays the VCSEL civilian units are pretty similar in performance.

 

[NousDefious]

Has anyone made a definitive decision on if the MARS is better than the Raptar since they are basically the same price?

 

[Rhed]

Has anyone made a definitive decision on if the MARS is better than the Raptar since they are basically the same price?

Honestly you should research each specs. Ranging technology is the same. The rest is up to you to decide. The most important thing with WMLRF is how you set it up. You can’t just zero at 100 yrds that’s for sure.

 

[NiteQwill]

Has anyone made a definitive decision on if the MARS is better than the Raptar since they are basically the same price?

The MARS-L is smaller, 'bigger screen,' and has onboard AB. I would say it is much better.

 

[NousDefious]

The MARS-L is smaller, 'bigger screen,' and has onboard AB. I would say it is much better.

The Raptar-S has onboard AB.

 

[Rhed]

The MARS-L is smaller, 'bigger screen,' and has onboard AB. I would say it is much better.

How much smaller than the Raptar? Raptar has AB, IR laser, IR flood, vis laser. Are we concern of weight here? Is that it?

 

[NousDefious]

How much smaller than the Raptar? Raptar has AB, IR laser, IR flood, vis laser. Are we concern of weight here? Is that it?

This is my main question of those 2 units. Then onto the Raptar-S vs the MRFx....

 

[Conqueror]

Has anyone made a definitive decision on if the MARS is better than the Raptar since they are basically the same price?

There are very few MARS units in the wild, I don’t think there will be any evidence on that front for quite some time. Some have claimed that the MARS LRF tech is a full generation better than the Raptar’s but unclear whether that makes a real world difference. If the Raptar works out to 2000 yards and the MARS works to 4000, that difference won’t matter to most people, even most ELR shooters. Otherwise they contain the same environmental sensors and the same computation software so they should perform similarly. The MARS has a weight/size advantage, but I’m currently a lot more confident Wilcox will still be around 10 years from now than I am about Envision. Not insulting them, just acknowledging they are a new company and have no long track record.

 

[White Mamba]

Has anyone made a definitive decision on if the MARS is better than the Raptar since they are basically the same price?

Wilcox is one of the worst companies i have ever dealt with in the industry. I would look at the Mars just for that reason alone

 

[Rhed]

If you want IR then the RAPTAR is better. If you want AB and rangefinding then go MARS fo sho

? The Raptar also has its own AB and Bluetooth if one wants to connect to a kestrel.

 

[NousDefious]

Wilcox is one of the worst companies i have ever dealt with in the industry. I would look at the Mars just for that reason alone

What was your dealings with them and was it with a WMLRF or similar product?

 

[NousDefious]

? The Raptar also has its own AB and Bluetooth if one wants to connect to a kestrel.

I was also confused by his statement....

 

[White Mamba]

What was your dealings with them and was it with a WMLRF or similar product?

It was with the Es rangefinder from the group buy here on the Hide.
Customer service would never return my call , After no replies from 3 differnt people i finally got ahold of the head guy and he said the tech could fix it but they dont warranty those units anymore. He asked me to send him all my info for a RA then stopped responding once i did. Called back and finally got another guy and he said sorry but we dont work on those anymore .
My unit worked about 5-10 times and then stopped rangeing

 

[NousDefious]

It was with the Es rangefinder from the group buy here on the Hide.
Customer service would never return my call , After no replies from 3 differnt people i finally got ahold of the head guy and he said the tech could fix it but they dont warranty those units anymore. He asked me to send him all my info for a RA then stopped responding once i did. Called back and finally got another guy and he said sorry but we dont work on those anymore .
My unit worked about 5-10 times and then stopped rangeing

Holy Shit! Man than sucks!

 

[Rhed]

It was with the Es rangefinder from the group buy here on the Hide.
Customer service would never return my call , After no replies from 3 differnt people i finally got ahold of the head guy and he said the tech could fix it but they dont warranty those units anymore. He asked me to send him all my info for a RA then stopped responding once i did. Called back and finally got another guy and he said sorry but we dont work on those anymore .
My unit worked about 5-10 times and then stopped rangeing

Was it one of those unlocked units?

 

[White Mamba]

Was it one of those unlocked units?

No it was not, only shot on a 6.5 creedmoor.
Prg defense who sold the units has been about 2-3 weeks out from responding back but they said they have problems with Wilcox as well

Buyer Beware!

 

[Rhed]

No it was not, only shot on a 6.5 creedmoor.
Prg defense who sold the units has been about 2-3 weeks out from responding back but they said they have problems with Wilcox as well

Buyer Beware!

That sucks bro.. Was Prg an Authorized Wilcox distributor? I don’t see their name on Wilcox site.

 

[White Mamba]

That sucks bro.. Was Prg an Authorized Wilcox distributor? I don’t see their name on Wilcox site.

Im not really sure. This was the group buy that Wigwamitus did and he told me to contact PRG who he worked with.

$3k down the drain. But Wilcox said they are sorry their customer service didnt meet my expectations, so i guess its ok now

 

[NiteQwill]

Wilcox does not have good personal CS. However, if you are a MIL/LE unit purchaser, they will bend over backwards.

The fact that Envision answers emails, phone calls, etc. is, so far, a testament to their CS. And I say this as former Wilcox customer with a HP Raptar.

 

[Rhed]

Well that’s the thing.. When you buy something from an authorized dealer, that item you’re buying has the manufacturers full support. Each consumer purchase from an authorized dealer gets registered to the manufacturer. Now if it’s from a vendor, or unauthorized, the vendor needs to give you full support. You send the item back to them. They give you the support. That’s why anytime you buy something, especially it’s has a high dollar value, make sure it’s a authorized dealer..

 

[Rhed]

Wilcox does not have good personal CS. However, if you are a MIL/LE unit purchaser, they will bend over backwards.

The fact that Envision answers emails, phone calls, etc. is, so far, a testament to their CS. And I say this as former Wilcox customer with a HP Raptar.

Of course they gonna answer.. It’s their first and only product they have… Guys who wants a MARS, I’m literally on your side.. it’s just that,If a company wants to get out there to succeed, I see no reason for a high price with an other company’s that you literally paying overhead like Wilcox. Envision needs to be a little more price competitive at first. Push the product out. Get amazing reviews. Then up the price cause of demand. I’m on your side trying to have the company listen to our thoughts here. I’m thinking MARS is a great unit. But it’s new, it shouldn’t be up there in price for what’s been around longer. Maybe a group buy would be good. Like 10 at 8k or something.

 

[White Mamba]

Of course they gonna answer.. It’s their first and only product they have… Guys who wants a MARS, I’m literally on your side.. it’s just that,If a company wants to get out there to succeed, I see no reason for a high price with an other company’s that you literally paying overhead like Wilcox. Envision needs to be a little more price competitive at first. Push the product out. Get amazing reviews. Then up the price cause of demand. I’m on your side trying to have the company listen to our thoughts here. I’m thinking MARS is a great unit. But it’s new, it shouldn’t be up there in price for what’s been around longer. Maybe a group buy would be good. Like 10 at 8k or something.

I did a group buy on here once

 

[Conqueror]

Wilcox is one of the worst companies i have ever dealt with in the industry. I would look at the Mars just for that reason alone

They had to warranty my Raptar and my experience was nothing like yours. CS rep was totally outstanding, followed up regularly, gave detailed answers and updates, they paid shipping both ways, etc.

 

[White Mamba]

They had to warranty my Raptar and my experience was nothing like yours. CS rep was totally outstanding, followed up regularly, gave detailed answers and updates, they paid shipping both ways, etc.

Maybe that was the difference, they were forced by warranty laws to help you.
An important note is I've never demanded anything or have been rude in any manner . I've only asked for help to fix it.
It gets old when you are lied to or never asked how they can help fix the situation.
It's good to hear you were taken care of though.
After the holidays I'll reach out to PRG again .
The story probably deserves its own thread

 

[Ronin_64]

Simply speculation on my part, but I think PRG received some fallout from the whole group buy and then having another company unlock the Raptars. Very shortly after the group buy went down, Wilcox was removed from their website.

 

[TheOE800]

Simply speculation on my part, but I think PRG received some fallout from the whole group buy and then having another company unlock the Raptars. Very shortly after the group buy went down, Wilcox was removed from their website.

Companies generally dislike when their product is hacked for feature sets to get around price or credential barriers.

 

[Teflon16]

Sorry to jump in late on this one.

Looking at buying a RAPTAR/MARS/MRF in the next few months and wanted to see if anyone had any side by side reviews yet of the newer systems. I haven’t gotten into NV (yet) and mainly am looking for the LRF portion of the system (will add NVGs/WMNV later).

Seems like street price for RAPTARS is 6-7k one here and the new MARS L is 9k when purchased. I don’t mind spending more for a real investment, you know the whole buy once cry once deal.

What are y’all’s thoughts between the two? From a form factor piece I’m leaning towards the MARS L but as mentioned elsewhere envision (to my knowledge and correct me if I’m wrong) doesn’t have the history that Wilcox does.

Thanks guys

 

[Teflon16]

Deleted - Phone posted above post twice