For the Love of God, GI Joe and John Wayne.... cleaning and abrasive cleaners

#152
Wiillk said:
Speaking of cleaning barrels, yesterday I had a real experience. One of my rifles shooting a popular 6mm silhouette round was just not shooting as well as it could. So, I gave it a cleaning. Used Hoppes, followed by oil, followed by three dry patches. First noted, the barrel, despite have over 200 rounds through it, showed virtually zero carbon or soot or copper fouling. I thought that very strange. (Cleaned by 6.5CM next and it had the usual amount of fouling, some light carbon that came right out.

Here is the strange part. First shot, it smoked like a cast bullet gun shooting bullets lubed with an alox style lube. Lots of smoke. Second shot showed a fairly heavy bolt lift. Third shot on was normal. Accuracy seemed to be spot on at ranges under 400 yards, but with that load (Varget and a Berger bullet) never could connect with targets700 yards and beyond. Switched to my Sierra bullet load and managed hits on both 700 and 800 yard silhouettes. This rifle is somewhat of a problem child anyway. I am going to discuss it with the builder, that’s why I am not naming names or actual cartridges. It is a great place to do business, and I don’t want to down them in public.

Just so you will know, the 6.5 Creedmoor was spot on all day. And the 6mm load was well below maximum and has been shot in this rifle for approximately 500 rounds with no issues previously. (Including 60 of the rounds in that 100 round box).

All this all but makes me want to go back to 6.5 Creedmoor. I was in the process of converting everything to 6mm.
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I’ll say it again, I have no idea what kind of super patches can get all solvent/oil out w three dry ones but it sure as hell ain’t the patches I use.

I’d say on average I use a dozen (or more) dry patches until I get one out with zero visible grime and zero dampness.
 
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#153
Baron23 said:
I’ll say it again, I have no idea what kind of super patches can get all solvent/oil out w three dry ones but it sure as hell ain’t the patches I use.

I’d say on average I use a dozen (or more) dry patches until I get one out with zero visible grime and zero dampness.
Click to expand...

The real question is:

Do you really need more than 3 dry patches?
 
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#158
roostercogburn98 said:
Have to shoot them to need cleaning!!
Click to expand...

Not necessarily...

swiffer.jpg


Funny, they don't mention rifle cleaning in the list... I must be doing it wrong.

Sirhr
 
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#159
So, I cleaned my barrel with Iosso paste with nylon & bronze brushes. About 120 passes between the two. No change in corrosion/etching. What the wipeout charlatan said was “just fine” did this with the next 20rnds.
IMG_0703.jpeg

I understand accelerator is a catalyst to the foam or patch out, but I never expected that on its own would eat a barrel. The Wipeout owner claims it shouldn’t either.
 
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#161
All this discussion about drying out the bore and running fifty patches is interesting and all, but if you just use Hoppes 9 to clean and finish with a patch of Hoppes 9, it’s a non issue.

What does it have to be so complicated?

I’ve gotten 4000+ good sub-moa rounds through my last 3 .260 barrels. Two Bartlein and one Rock Creek. Just using Hoppes except once when I went about 1000 rounds suppressed using H4350 and got a carbon ring. (This despite someone’s claim that only Varget can produce carbon rings, lol.)

Why does it have to be so complicated?
 
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#162
lash said:
All this discussion about drying out the bore and running fifty patches is interesting and all, but if you just use Hoppes 9 to clean and finish with a patch of Hoppes 9, it’s a non issue.

What does it have to be so complicated?

I’ve gotten 4000+ good sub-moa rounds through my last 3 .260 barrels. Two Bartlein and one Rock Creek. Just using Hoppes except once when I went about 1000 rounds suppressed using H4350 and got a carbon ring. (This despite someone’s claim that only Varget can produce carbon rings, lol.)

Why does it have to be so complicated?
Click to expand...
Well because Hoppes Hates Nickel. So, I went to straight Rem Oil. Used Hoppes since I was a boy (Literally). Only problem I ever had was when I went to Vietnam and my mother left my favorite shotgun in an unheated, uncooled part of the house she was not using. rusted up bad, but I don't blame this on Hoppes.

Somewhere around a couple decades ago, I purchased an XP100 with a nickel plated receiver and a stainless barrel. Shot like a house a fire. Best shooting firearm I own. Due to age and injuries, can't shoot like I used to but on my best days during my best moments it surprises the heck out of me with groups that would make a nice PRS rifle blush (with shame) That shooting Creedmoor position, virtually unsupported otherwise. But, can't use Hoppes around it by Hoppes own recommendation. That is fair enough. They say don't, so I don't.

Now I use Hoppes when a rifle seems be having issues. Being very old fashioned, I just have this fear of putting something very acidic or caustic down the barrel of a nice rifle. Hoppes seems to avoid all this. Love the smell, but it sure makes any building a fellow or lady uses it in quite un-inhabital for some time so its an outside or well ventilated shop only product.

Mentioned much of this in an earlier post. I decided to repeat it because I still think after all these years, that Hoppes is still a fine solvent that is safe around firearms (but not noses)
 
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#163
SteveInMd said:
This is my 6ARC gas gun barrel with about 1000 rounds on it. It was cleaned after each range trip for the first 100 rounds then cleaned about every 200-300 rounds since then. It has numerous spots like this all between the gas port and muzzle, is it etching from cleaning, manufacturing defects, pitting from rust? The rifle shoots well so I was surprised to see this. What say the people?
View attachment 8206441View attachment 8206444
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I have a CZ 527 in 6.5 Grendel that looks like that. It has never shot well from day one. It's never been treated badly or gotten wet.

The inside of the barrel reminds me of how a lot of Savage barrels look. The difference, is that Savages seem to shoot well regardless of the sewer pipe look.

I do have another 527 (among others) in 221 Fireball that got left in a soft case (for a month) after a rainy night of hog hunting.
It looks way worse than the 6.5, but it will still put out little tiny groups.
 
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#164
Frank Green said:
Hmmm? Looks like pitting. Could also be a void in the material. If the pitting that is shown in that picture is just in one area of the barrel and not thru out the barrel randomly etc.... then it could be a void in the material. Not to say it wasn't caused by a cleaner but if it was caused by a cleaner/cleaning procedure then there should be more thru out the barrel.

If it shoots good.... don't look down the bore. LOL! Shoot it till it pukes then.

I've never seen Butch's cause a pitting problem by itself. Like other cleaners.... I tell guys don't mix the solvents. Either in the jar or in the bore. Your asking for problems.

Later, Frank
Click to expand...

I'll flatly state here that I use a mix of Shooter's Choice and Kroil. Been doing so since the late 80s.

I'll also use Hoppes if that's the only thing on hand.
The containers of Sweets, Hoppes BP gel and whatever else is lying around, continue to sit unused.





For those that want to use a mixture of chemicals, well, here you go.

 
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#168
Frank Green said:
Frist off as already has been mentioned.... not everyone looking down a barrel knows what they are looking at.

The thing with what your saying is this... you are paying attention to the gun/barrel and your taking care of it etc...learn how to read it. It will tell you what is going on... you just have to learn how to read it.

3-5 wet patches? If that's all it's taking you and the gun is shooting. I've got nothing to say.

I get the bore wet with patches till they come out clean. Leave the gun sit overnight with the muzzle down/pitched attitude so the garbage runs towards the muzzle. No dry patches. If your dry patching the bore your taking the cleaner out (Hoppes). Let it do it's job. Come back the next day and run a couple more wet patches down the bore. You will probably fine more fouling will come out. Especially as the barrel wears and is getting rougher. I do this process till the patches come out clean. Then I put the gun away.

to recap what is in the M40a1 manual...."After a weapon has been fired, it must be cleaned for at least three consecutive days. For several days after firing, check the rifle for corrosion and fouling by running a clean patch thru the bore ( I would use a wet patch of Hoppes not just a dry patch). Graphite and carbon deposits will sweat from the pores of the metal for three days, thus the need for repeated cleaning.”

I don't know about three days exactly but like I said, the barrel will sweat per se.
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Is this three consecutive day cleaning process you mention applicable to your 400MODBB barrels?

Reason I ask, I have a 400MODBB AR10 barrel chambered in 22CM that should be arriving in the next month that I will have to break in and I want to do it correctly.

And if I understand correctly you prefer Hoppes for your barrels as opposed to Bore Tech?
 
#171
Baron23 said:
Ah...not if you follow the directions...maybe?

And no, he just put accelerator in there and left it for a while
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I have only used the foam. Left it in an HTI barrel for 1 hour and patched it out and it worked fairly well to remove copper & carbon fouling.

If I remember correctly, the directions on the foam can mention leaving it overnight in some instances?
 
#172
232593 said:
I have only used the foam. Left it in an HTI barrel for 1 hour and patched it out and it worked fairly well to remove copper & carbon fouling.

If I remember correctly, the directions on the foam can mention leaving it overnight in some instances?
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I use Patch Out....their product for applying with a patch vise foam. It calls for a 3 to 1 ratio of Patch Out to Accelerator....not just Accelerator.

I have left Patch Out/Accelerator in my barrel for overnight and perhaps even longer without a single problem at all. And yes, I have a bore scope and use it. Not a single issue.

Now, I can't prove that Gingerman's issue was just from Accelerator and not a problem with the steel of his barrel....but the later would surprise me.

Also surprising is the response he got from the owner.

Dunno...mostly I used Bore Tech products. Again, left in the barrel for extended periods of time without a single issue. But, as said above....I dry patch until every bit of solvent is out of the barrel. YMMV
 
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#173
232593 said:
You used the foam in conjunction with the accelerator and it caused that pitting correct?
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I used the Accelerator with foam for over a year on all my barrels. One soaked patch of the accelerator and then a few hour sit with foam. Sometimes overnight. No problems.

Recently, when I did that same process to my CMV 308 rig, I got a lot of rust colored patches. It had been a while since I shot that particular rig, so I thought it collected rust. I read all the labels on the Accelerator bottle and between the bottle and website there are Then I decided to fill the bore with accelerator using the PVA muzzle Jimmy, and do some stuff around the shop. 45min later, I pulled the plug and red colored liquid poured out. Then I saw the pitting, eating, barnacles all throughout the bore. I saw a similar complaint from 2013: (Though not as severe and fast acting)

www.snipershide.com

Wipe Out "rust" problem

Although I have used Wipe Out and related products (Patch Out, etc.) and have generally had good results with it as a bore cleaner, I did get a batch with problems: Before deer season, I cleaned my usual deer rifles (Tikkas with stainless barrels) which had been in storage since the previous...
www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
 
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#174
Baron23 said:
Ah...not if you follow the directions...maybe?

And no, he just put accelerator in there and left it for a while
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There was about 40 claims that accelerator won't harm barrel steels. The Wipeout owner said no matter what I did with accelerator, it won't harm barrel steel. That is absolute bullshit. What really sealed it was the owner claiming my barrel was fine after looking at the bore scope pictures. Then tells me to get a good attorney if I wanted anything more from him. That's just fucking great ain't it!
 
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#175
Gingerman said:
There was about 40 claims that accelerator won't harm barrel steels. The Wipeout owner said no matter what I did with accelerator, it won't harm barrel steel. That is absolute bullshit. What really sealed it was the owner claiming my barrel was fine after looking at the bore scope pictures. Then tells me to get a good attorney if I wanted anything more from him. That's just fucking great ain't it!
Click to expand...
Yep, I'm with you, brother. No way it should have done that, no way they don't tell you its safe to leave in there, and no way that asshole should have responded to you in that manner.

Sorry about your barrel.

Doy you think it being CMV steel had anything to do with it? ....just curious.

Cheers
 
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#176
@Baron23 - The next experiment is to see if Tubb's finial finish kit will do anything. Or 0000 wool on a bronze brush if that doesn't work. Or just chalk up $1400-1500 barrel loss. I might just file small claims court so he has to travel across the country for a big "fuck you!" LOL

To clarify the CMV barrel was 308 WIN
The ruined barrel is a 416R stainless
 
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#180
Gingerman said:
There was about 40 claims that accelerator won't harm barrel steels. The Wipeout owner said no matter what I did with accelerator, it won't harm barrel steel. That is absolute bullshit. What really sealed it was the owner claiming my barrel was fine after looking at the bore scope pictures. Then tells me to get a good attorney if I wanted anything more from him. That's just fucking great ain't it!
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That was a serious dick move by the Wipe Out staff. And it was retarded as well, they had an opportunity to get a decent data point on product performance.

Sorry that shit happened to you. Does your barrel still shoot? Any effect on ES & Accuracy?
 
#185
@Baron23 - how fucked up is that? Just want to talk guns, shooting, hunting. However, there are some absolutely lifeless cunts that just can’t take that.

“Gotta have thick skin to be on the hide.”Hilarious! It’s the thinnest skinned place I’ve ever experienced!
 
#186
FredHammer said:
@Baron23 - how fucked up is that? Just want to talk guns, shooting, hunting. However, there are some absolutely lifeless cunts that just can’t take that.

“Gotta have thick skin to be on the hide.”Hilarious! It’s the thinnest skinned place I’ve ever experienced!
Click to expand...
This in reference to morning would's incomprehensible post....which I still have zero idea WTF that person was talking about.

As for the rest....well, yeah! haha
 
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#187
232593 said:
Is this three consecutive day cleaning process you mention applicable to your 400MODBB barrels?

Reason I ask, I have a 400MODBB AR10 barrel chambered in 22CM that should be arriving in the next month that I will have to break in and I want to do it correctly.

And if I understand correctly you prefer Hoppes for your barrels as opposed to Bore Tech?
Click to expand...
The 3 day thing is out of the M40a1 manual. Doesn't matter what type of steel it is. If it takes longer than 3 days whatever. Just pay attention to it. it will tell you what is going on you just have to learn how to read it. I store all my guns with Hoppe's. It protects as good as any oil and will keep cleaning.

If I'm in a hurry I use Sweet's 7.62 solvent and Rem. 40x cleaner....

I myself am not a Boretech fan. Doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Read the attachment.

Give me a call if you have any questions. Faster on the phone than by email or posts etc...

Later, Frank
 

Attachments

  • Cleaning Break in guide lines.pdf
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#188
Frank Green said:
The 3 day thing is out of the M40a1 manual. Doesn't matter what type of steel it is. If it takes longer than 3 days whatever. Just pay attention to it. it will tell you what is going on you just have to learn how to read it. I store all my guns with Hoppe's. It protects as good as any oil and will keep cleaning.

If I'm in a hurry I use Sweet's 7.62 solvent and Rem. 40x cleaner....

I myself am not a Boretech fan. Doesn't mean it doesn't work for others.

Read the attachment.

Give me a call if you have any questions. Faster on the phone than by email or posts etc...

Later, Frank
Click to expand...
I believe I'll save those cleaning & break-in instructions. Probably the most accurate and usable instructions I've seen written down.
 
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#190
Ronin22 said:
Chemical clean a lot, or mechanical clean a little seems to be the major question, or the balance between the two therein.
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it is a balance. That's the hard part is teaching someone how to pay attention to the bore and learning how to read it.

Also think of the caliber/barrel. A 308win barrel is pretty forgiving when it comes to carbon fouling/build up vs a 300wm where your dumping double the amount of powder down the bore. Or stay with 308win case capacity but neck it down to a 243/6mm barrel. Your doing the same thing. That 243win just became a magnum round.

If you feel a rough/tight spot in the throat.... then usually you have to use a brush as much as I hate to admit it.

Also some guys let the barrels go to long in between cleanings... then when that happens and there is a problem. A one hour cleaning session isn't going to help you. They see the accuracy comes back but only holds for say 15-20 rounds. Again you let it get away from you and it's going to take longer to clean it to get it back shooting properly.
 
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#191
AllenOne1 said:
I believe I'll save those cleaning & break-in instructions. Probably the most accurate and usable instructions I've seen written down.
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The one thing that I will say is I don't do a set break in anymore. Haven't for years. I'll shoot 2 rounds thru the barrel and clean it. If it cleans easy/not getting a lot of fouling out of it. I'll sit down and shoot say 20 - 30 or so rounds thru it and clean it again. Don't run it hard right away. Go easy on it.

If those 20 or so rounds the accuracy is consistent and again the barrel is cleaning decent... I don't waste my time on it after that.
 
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#192
Guys think about this....

Ammunition / bullet makers. Depending on the cartridge and bullet. Most will clean the barrel after every 50 rounds fired. 10 shot groups for accuracy testing. In some instances like with 308win they will go up to a 150 rounds in between cleanings (again the 308win is very forgiving) but either way they maintain the system/guns. They don't want the barrel being a variable and causing issues.

Is every 50 rounds always feasible? I'll say no. I judge my guns like 223 and 308win or a 6.5CM etc... that it has to hold accuracy for about 100 rounds fired. If it won't do that anymore and you got a lot of rounds on it. Usually an indicator it's time to pull the barrel and replace it.
 
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#194
Thinking about barrel steel vs what we're trying to remove:

Powder fouling comes out easily.
I think we could probably use most anything to remove it.


Copper fouling can be targeted by specific cleaners like Sweets. Sweets is corrosive to steel if left in the bore and not neutralized. It's based on ammonia. Ammonia is listed as a corrosive.


Cleaners used to remove carbon fouling are designed to attack carbon.
Stainless barrels have iron and carbon as part of their material composition.


Why wouldn't we expect carbon removers to attack the steel if left too long in the bore?
 
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#195
Mike Casselton said:
Thinking about barrel steel vs what we're trying to remove:

Powder fouling comes out easily.
I think we could probably use most anything to remove it.


Copper fouling can be targeted by specific cleaners like Sweets. Sweets is corrosive to steel if left in the bore and not neutralized. It's based on ammonia. Ammonia is listed as a corrosive.


Cleaners used to remove carbon fouling are designed to attack carbon.
Stainless barrels have iron and carbon as part of their material composition.


Why wouldn't we expect carbon removers to attack the steel if left too long in the bore?
Click to expand...
1692721641831.jpeg
 
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#196
Frank Green said:
Guys think about this....

Ammunition / bullet makers. Depending on the cartridge and bullet. Most will clean the barrel after every 50 rounds fired. 10 shot groups for accuracy testing. In some instances like with 308win they will go up to a 150 rounds in between cleanings (again the 308win is very forgiving) but either way they maintain the system/guns. They don't want the barrel being a variable and causing issues.

Is every 50 rounds always feasible? I'll say no. I judge my guns like 223 and 308win or a 6.5CM etc... that it has to hold accuracy for about 100 rounds fired. If it won't do that anymore and you got a lot of rounds on it. Usually an indicator it's time to pull the barrel and replace it.
Click to expand...
Is that 50 round figure applicable to the barrels you make chambered in .50 BMG & .375 and .408 CT? Or is it a bit more or less?
 
#197
Mike Casselton said:
Thinking about barrel steel vs what we're trying to remove:

Powder fouling comes out easily.
I think we could probably use most anything to remove it.


Copper fouling can be targeted by specific cleaners like Sweets. Sweets is corrosive to steel if left in the bore and not neutralized. It's based on ammonia. Ammonia is listed as a corrosive.


Cleaners used to remove carbon fouling are designed to attack carbon.
Stainless barrels have iron and carbon as part of their material composition.


Why wouldn't we expect carbon removers to attack the steel if left too long in the bore?
Click to expand...

When I used to shoot at sacramento valley the benchrest dinosaurs would make their own gun cleaner. One of them gave me some of it in a little plastic squirt bottle & it ate through the bottle and burned a black spot into my workbench overnight.
 
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#198
BCP said:
When I used to shoot at sacramento valley the benchrest dinosaurs would make their own gun cleaner. One of them gave me some of it in a little plastic squirt bottle & it ate through the bottle and burned a black spot into my workbench overnight.
Click to expand...

I once watched a coworker pour MEK into a styrofoam cup.
It ate through the cup before he could get the cap back on the MEK can.

The mixture you received might have been perfectly safe for your barrel, but not in that plastic container.

I'd bet it was a mix of Ed's Red or that other mix that eats up plastic fouling in shotgun barrels.
 
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#199
Mike Casselton said:
Thinking about barrel steel vs what we're trying to remove:

Powder fouling comes out easily.
I think we could probably use most anything to remove it.


Copper fouling can be targeted by specific cleaners like Sweets. Sweets is corrosive to steel if left in the bore and not neutralized. It's based on ammonia. Ammonia is listed as a corrosive.


Cleaners used to remove carbon fouling are designed to attack carbon.
Stainless barrels have iron and carbon as part of their material composition.


Why wouldn't we expect carbon removers to attack the steel if left too long in the bore?
Click to expand...
MSDS lists Accelerator is Buytl Cellosolve. Wipeout dude said it's only a copper removal agent. Well, we all know he lied.
 
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