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Great analysis of electric cars
- Thread starter sirhrmechanic
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Busted!!
- Nov 3, 2010
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There's a company called Vevor that sells EV charger setups way cheaper than the ones with the funny looking T on them.
I bought a battery to battery charger from them and it's very nicely built.
Disclaimer: I actually bought it for the cables because it was less expensive than having some made.
Chrysler Corp back in the 60s
Using the reactor to generate the steam to spin the turbine.... that is the basis of what I was speaking. Miniature version of what is in an SSBN.
I'm not saying "it's easy" or anything like that. What I am saying though, or asking, is "could it be done?"
Another thing that kinda sticks in my throat, is all this data comes from northern Europe. Heck, I can ride my bike across parts of Sweden or Norway quicker than I can get to the nearest large city by car here in North Central Louisiana, much less to our son’s home a bit under 500 miles away. I am sure that an electric powered vehicle is the Bees Knees in Luxenburg. One of my favorite places is Andorra, An EV would be great there, in the summer. Of course, in Andorra’s winter, being a Mountain Principality, the temperatures might put a bit of a crunch on an ev’s ability to climb up the drive, considering the battery being a bit DEAD from the cold.
Most folks here would also love Andorra, Nice Place. Beautiful countryside. Oh, ALL Abled body Males between the ages of 16 and 60 are Required BY LAW to Own at least One Rifle and Regularly practice with it!
If a citizen of Andorra does not own a rifle, the POLICE will provide them with one. They literally take Well Armed MilItia seriously.
OK, I hijacked the shit out of this thread. In case folks are wondering, I don’t hate Electric Cars. I just think there are so many better ways to provide transportation for Americans, who live in a Large, Spread Out Nation. (But I do HATE EV’s being forced on us)
Most folks here would also love Andorra, Nice Place. Beautiful countryside. Oh, ALL Abled body Males between the ages of 16 and 60 are Required BY LAW to Own at least One Rifle and Regularly practice with it!
If a citizen of Andorra does not own a rifle, the POLICE will provide them with one. They literally take Well Armed MilItia seriously.
OK, I hijacked the shit out of this thread. In case folks are wondering, I don’t hate Electric Cars. I just think there are so many better ways to provide transportation for Americans, who live in a Large, Spread Out Nation. (But I do HATE EV’s being forced on us)
I have a tesla. drives its self and has 500hp. I love it. it costs me about .01$ per mile in electricity costs to drive.
my dad has a ram, costs him about .35$ per mile.
my little electric Y is faster than my parents old dodge viper. it cost me like 35k.
fwiw, mine *only* goes about 280 miles on a charge, I got the 500hp version, not the long range version. no ragrets.
also yes I've taken it on long 500+ mile trips. you just charge, like getting gas. pretty cool stuff.
just checked, I've only put 73,000 miles on it so I don't know how it will hold up super long term but I'm guessing everything will be fine.
my dad has a ram, costs him about .35$ per mile.
my little electric Y is faster than my parents old dodge viper. it cost me like 35k.
fwiw, mine *only* goes about 280 miles on a charge, I got the 500hp version, not the long range version. no ragrets.
also yes I've taken it on long 500+ mile trips. you just charge, like getting gas. pretty cool stuff.
just checked, I've only put 73,000 miles on it so I don't know how it will hold up super long term but I'm guessing everything will be fine.
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I see several of you are wondering how much it might raise your electricity bill, for me 1$ per day and I drive about 100 miles a day, approx 30$ a month and 3000 miles is what I've averaged on this tesla.
that's all home charging costs, supercharging on road trips is MUCH higher, similar to gasoline but still cheaper.
you guys should test drive a tesla.
not a different brand, tesla specifically. the model Y is a value that can't be beat imho. I could have spent more, but why? my car has the FSD for 8k and the performance package that gives it 505 wheel horse power(instant electric)
the new model 3 performance has 610 at the wheels and honestly I'm so jealous even though I absolutely do not need a faster car.
I will say IMHO my Y is a borderline ugly vehicle. I got 3 kids so I needed the room of a crossover.
that's all home charging costs, supercharging on road trips is MUCH higher, similar to gasoline but still cheaper.
you guys should test drive a tesla.
not a different brand, tesla specifically. the model Y is a value that can't be beat imho. I could have spent more, but why? my car has the FSD for 8k and the performance package that gives it 505 wheel horse power(instant electric)
the new model 3 performance has 610 at the wheels and honestly I'm so jealous even though I absolutely do not need a faster car.
I will say IMHO my Y is a borderline ugly vehicle. I got 3 kids so I needed the room of a crossover.
One of the main guys, Dr Sam Williams, then left and founded Williams Research Corporation which is now Williams International.
- Nov 3, 2010
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Does hazard cuntucky even have electricity and running water? I used to work with a guy from that county, and he always talked like they didn’t have those luxuries
I think the Tesla, ev stuff is cool. Just as an advancement in tech, actually American made cars, etc… Yet, why aren’t we researching bio fuels more?? Algae fuels are pretty enticing to the getting off fossil fuel & climate change argument. Oh wait, money and narrative…..
Challenge with turbine power is you lack immediate acceleration and they don’t run transmissions well.
BUT Generators are most efficient at higher RPM’s. Back when we were looking at “hybrid” options for powering military vehicles in the early 2000’s (heavy fuel mandate and green shit) the “logical” way of doing hybrids (aka the proper engineering solution) was to couple a micro-turbine engine to a dynamo spinning at high speeds. NOW you get turbine efficiency can make a lot of power with a small efficient high-RPM dynamo… with the “launching” power of electric motors.
At the time there was a company in Ct making really cool 2.75” diameter jet turbines that could have turned our 2.75” “dumb” rockets into long loiter mini cruise missiles. This sort of tiny turbine scaled correctly could make a very efficient hybrid
But the hybrid industry insists on running “dynamos” with the same low RPM way-too-large torque-producing engines that they use to power traditional cars. Why? Because developing a new engine at the time the Prius was introduced was a billion dollars. Making a “roadworthy” turbine hybrid work probably costs more billions. And they didn’t “need” a billion dollar optimized engine to start selling boatloads of hybrids. They needed the illusion of an electric car. Aka a fashion statement with blue and green trim and a fancy badge.
Turbines could definitely have a role! But no one wants to go there. And it would “probably” meet consumer resistance and I am not sure you could put a catalytic converter on one.
Sirhr
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Another thing that kinda sticks in my throat, is all this data comes from northern Europe. Heck, I can ride my bike across parts of Sweden or Norway quicker than I can get to the nearest large city by car here in North Central Louisiana, much less to our son’s home a bit under 500 miles away. I am sure that an electric powered vehicle is the Bees Knees in Luxenburg. One of my favorite places is Andorra, An EV would be great there, in the summer. Of course, in Andorra’s winter, being a Mountain Principality, the temperatures might put a bit of a crunch on an ev’s ability to climb up the drive, considering the battery being a bit DEAD from the cold.
Most folks here would also love Andorra, Nice Place. Beautiful countryside. Oh, ALL Abled body Males between the ages of 16 and 60 are Required BY LAW to Own at least One Rifle and Regularly practice with it!
If a citizen of Andorra does not own a rifle, the POLICE will provide them with one. They literally take Well Armed MilItia seriously.
OK, I hijacked the shit out of this thread. In case folks are wondering, I don’t hate Electric Cars. I just think there are so many better ways to provide transportation for Americans, who live in a Large, Spread Out Nation. (But I do HATE EV’s being forced on us)
No hijack.. good points.
All-electric vehicles seem ideal for cities and places where trips are short and slow.
So then why, for example, is NYC or DC or Similar cities not going all EV’s on their fleets of taxi’s and police vehicles? Seems totally logical. As city cars the EV seems like a no-brainer. Especially for more temperate urban areas!
Except for, again, that whole energy density and convenience. A “fleet” of NYC taxi’s or police cars can run 24x7 with stops only for maintenance (ha!!!) and gas fill ups. Switch to EV’s and you need two or three times as many vehicles because each car in Your fleet needs to spend 1/3rd to 2/3rds of its time charging. Ideally slow charge to optimize battery life.
A bit of Google shows that there are 100,000 “legal” taxi’s in NYC. Not to mention probably half-that-again in illegal cabs or Uber’s. And there are 9,000 police vehicles in the NYPD fleet at any one time.
So that would have to double or triple.
So where is one going to park those (now) 220,000 vehicles for 1/2 to 1/3 of each day to charge? A private parking space in NYC sells for hundreds of thousands of dollars. A parking space is 160 square feet. 220,000 cars takes up 808 acres of space. By comparison, Central Park is 840 acres. So you would need an area half the size of Central Park just to keep half your fleet plugged in at any time.
Again… it sounds like the perfect solution for cities and dense areas. And in some places it could be! Western Europe… is a good example.
Sprawling communities in the U.S. South and West perhaps… places where seniors are already using golf carts and ATV’s. Places with lots of sun and cheap land! Bring it on! If EV’s are the best solution in those places, let market forces decide!
But with all their eco-faggotry and green carrying on… if “market forces” in places like NYC can’t justify their little electric cars except to be seen in them at Met Gala’s or driving around their snooty Greenwich Village or Cos Cob CT neighborhoods… then they remain fashion accessories, not economically viable or ecologically sound transportation for the time being!
Sirhr
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I did not re read this specific article, but I have read one that talked about an early electric taxi company in New york.
In 1899 Ninety Percent of New York City’s Taxi Cabs Were Electric Vehicles
Today I found out in 1899 ninety percent of New York City’s taxi cabs were electric vehicles. This fleet of electric cars was built by the Electric Carriage and Wagon Company of Philadelphia. Not only that, but in 1899 and 1900, electric cars outsold all other types of cars, such as gas and...
www.todayifoundout.com
Story goes that they even had hot swap batteries, so the cars could just keep going. It did not survive the on rush of gas cars. There are several reasons for this, but the big one is expense. The same thing that hits them now. We are all seeing it now, as the cars start to loose the .gov cheeze the sales start to dry up.
Hunt up Jay's video on the Chrysler turbine car. He has IIRC the only one in private hands and the only one that is turn key ready to drive.
It was not really a transmission issue as I understand things, they got around that with different torque converters with a REAL high stall. The issue is fuel burn, remember the thing idles at 20,000 rpm. It is going to burn more fuel, and again it will run on anything that will burn. It ran on perfume when tested in france, and tequila in mexico back in the day. If it will burn it will run on it. There was also never an issue of it melting pavement or catching grass on fire. This is back in the day when the US built fantastic things. It did work as a car.
Screw it I want to watch the video again.
Yup... GM had a turbine car, too, IIRC. It was all cool stuff. But not practical in that form. That said, a microturbine spinning a high-efficiency dynamo could be a pretty cool thing.
But there are likely better solutions out there. All stuff we played with in the early 2000's in everything from paper concepts to working prototypes. In the end, diesel motors and reliability and cost won out against science fair projects. But, hey, it was still fun!
Cheers,
Sirhr
I did not re read this specific article, but I have read one that talked about an early electric taxi company in New york.
In 1899 Ninety Percent of New York City’s Taxi Cabs Were Electric Vehicles
Today I found out in 1899 ninety percent of New York City’s taxi cabs were electric vehicles. This fleet of electric cars was built by the Electric Carriage and Wagon Company of Philadelphia. Not only that, but in 1899 and 1900, electric cars outsold all other types of cars, such as gas and...
Story goes that they even had hot swap batteries, so the cars could just keep going. It did not survive the on rush of gas cars. There are several reasons for this, but the big one is expense. The same thing that hits them now. We are all seeing it now, as the cars start to loose the .gov cheeze the sales start to dry up.
Baker electric and Detroit electric cars (I've driven both) were great solutions in 1900. There were no spark plugs... you used hot wire igniters with open flame to ignite fuel under compression.
No decent carbs. Engine 'might' run for a few miles without needin tinkering. Gasoline had no infrastructure. You bought it in glass jars from hardware stores. And purity level? It was an industrial waste/byproduct of the kerosene lighting industry.
Electric cars were clean, reliable, quiet... marketed as 'great for wimmenz!' They were fantastic until the power density of gasoline/diesel became apparent... and technology improved (magnetos, coils, spark plugs, carbs)... and a gasoline infrastructure grew up. Electric was doomed from the start. Doesn't mean those weren't great cars (better than gasoline) in their day.
Want a great video to watch? Horatio's Drive by Ken Burns. The story of a crazy Vermont Doctor who was the first guy to drive a car across America in 1903. Incredible to watch! So well documented and filmed. I know the guy who has the Winton used in the documentary. And I own one of Horation Nelson Jackson's pistols... a Colt Auto that he carried across country. It's an incredible story! And shows what an early gas car was like!
Watch Horatio's Drive | A Film by Ken Burns | PBS
Ken Burns and Florentine Films put viewers in the front seat of Dr. Horatio Nelson Jackson's historic — and hilarious — journey to be first person to cross the United States by car. Now streaming.
www.pbs.org
His grand-daughters are still alive and well up in Burlington... and in their 80's.
BTW, I don't have it any more... but this was my 1903 Oldsmobile that I toured all over the place with. This is on a tour on Cape Cod around 2006. I think my longest day was 80 miles. And that was a longggg day!
Cheers,
Sirhr
Problem with tiny turbines is materials, speeds required, and time of components life. 6" rotor military usage rotor spins 60k rpm and is made of Mar m 247. Lots of inconel as well. Go smaller and speeds go up like 100k or even 120k. Turbine parts only last so long. I'm not on that side of the house but how well will people actually go in for parts needing changed/ inspected at the correct hour marks?
Damn, I been pushing hot swap batteries for close to a decade now, and every time I even mention it, I am shouted down as to what a bad idea it is.I did not re read this specific article, but I have read one that talked about an early electric taxi company in New york.
In 1899 Ninety Percent of New York City’s Taxi Cabs Were Electric Vehicles
Today I found out in 1899 ninety percent of New York City’s taxi cabs were electric vehicles. This fleet of electric cars was built by the Electric Carriage and Wagon Company of Philadelphia. Not only that, but in 1899 and 1900, electric cars outsold all other types of cars, such as gas and...
Story goes that they even had hot swap batteries, so the cars could just keep going. It did not survive the on rush of gas cars. There are several reasons for this, but the big one is expense. The same thing that hits them now. We are all seeing it now, as the cars start to loose the .gov cheeze the sales start to dry up.
Well why not! “Filling stations” with batteries on the charger, ready to go, opearators with the equipment on hand to pull the low battery out of the car, put it on the charging rack, install a freshly charged battery in the vehicle, charge for the amount of amperes the freshly charged battery holds and off you go.
I foresee a forklift type of battery extractor/installer, with a flat battery that fits under the passenger compartment. Neat little local small nuclear generating stations humming away, (well how bout “radiating away”) generating the electricity the community needs. Rivers flow free (except for Caney Creek Lake of course ) Eagles don’t have to worry about getting hit by windmill blades, rabbits get to eat grass instead of starving or boiling to death under acres and acres of semi dead, red chinese made solar cells. It’s all so simple. What is wrong with people,
If we have to have electrics, why not practical electrics?
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Tesla initially was going that route. But decided not to. It’s a good soultion, but I think logistics and cost got in the way.
Consider the NYC analogy again. A battery is big. Heavy. And requires a “bay” to do the swap out. Think 110000 taxis and police cars ( not to mention POV’s). needing 1-2 battery swaps a day. That means inventorying 100000-200000 batteries “somewhere” on chargers.
And what is the manpower involved in doing 110,000-220,000 hot swaps a day. If each takes 10 minutes… that’s 18000 man hours a day. Or 2300 people employed full time (assuming one man job) to do it. Just to keep NYC in electrics.
Think of the manpower involved in the gasoline filling station industry… and now er have automated pumps.
And maybe hot swaps could be done robotically. Probably can be. What’s the cost and physical footprint of those facilities? In Manhattan? Where land is millions per square yard.
It *is* the right answer at some level. Until you run the economics and then it becomes really expensive. I say… do it! Let electric car owners pay for it. Like diamonds and Rolexes fashion accessories cost money.
Sirhr
The Chinese NIO brand has quick swap batteries.
It takes about 10 minutes start to finish to pull into one of their stations and drive off with a fresh set of batteries.
They have those setup in Europe and China
BUT also consider this, most folks going on about the charging times have no clue about the latest generation of charging abilities.
The latest gen cars with the latest gen chargers pretty much top you up to 80% or so in about 30 minutes, and the next generation of 1kw charging will take that down to 20 minutes or less.
So it's a bit of a question about time.
Now that being said, NIO and others with removable quick swap batteries solved the issue of your battery going bad and being a high cost.
You buy the car and essentially rent the battery on a support contract. So you always pay a small fee but the battery is always swapped out or replaced when it has a problem at no cost to you, as part of that battery rental contract. (You also have the option to just buy the battery instead if you don't want that, but if you are going to go around having batteries swapped in and out, it makes sense).
Whatever.
Side note, Tesla actually supposedly demoed battery swap for their vehicles to big fanfare and such from Musk, then quietly decided why not just make more profits instead...
Ethanol - don’t forget to spank the hell out of that decision.
Why do we have to have three grades, or more, of gasoline at the pumps?
Logic no longer prevails.
Why do we have to have three grades, or more, of gasoline at the pumps?
Logic no longer prevails.
That's like an article the other day. It was all about how this new invovatinve company than now recycles wind turbine blades. At the end the article it says, "the end product is not usable.
They had to change the definition of recycling. Now smashing it up and sending it to the dump is recycling. There are a few things that are set in stone. The faster you charge a battery the hotter it will get and the shorter it will live. That is just a given. What they are doing with this fast charging is banking on people unloading these cars at the end of their two year lease before battery life becomes an issue. We all know just what the market is now for used battery vehicles, I can only imagine what it will be after the used cars last for one year before the range drops by half. It will not make a bit of difference to the people building the battery cars, they make money on new car sales, the people that lease them don't care as they unload it before the issues start, so why care a single thing about the used market. It will only hit if the "buy back" price at the end of the lease is too low, and that can be offset by your tax money. Everyone wins, see how that works.
The "hot swap" battery will be a difficult issue to solve. This is the key sticking point on cars, once that battery pack is done the entire car is done, and not many people are going to swap in a new battery for $60k to keep their car going. If you are getting a swapped battery just what condition is that battery in. If you hack your car so you can hit it with the fast charger all the time all the way up to full every time, we know that will shorten battery life, with hot swap who cares, that is going to be someone else problem. You have a new battery, who cares how you abuse it. For this reason it will never take off.
In the china model sure it works, they are using other peoples money to keep everything going.
That can not last forever, but it does not need to.
In only need to last long enough for them to get a good firm grip around your neck.
Don't have to ruin any landscapes if you put 'em on existing farm and grazing land! Won't be needing those 'cause we'll all be eatingjust think.. a few of these destroying the landscape, so we can have a 0 net carbon footprint.
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