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Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Calculator
- Thread starter Eric B.
- Start date
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Augustus - can you explain what you meant earlier when "banding your BC" for longer range shooting using the Kestrel - which only uses G1?
Also, for folks who are using the combo unit Kestrel + Horus software, what benefit do you get from Bluetooth? If you have the 4500NV + BT, is it worth the extra $100 or not such a great value - since you can use the cable to connnect to a PC?
Augustus - can you explain what you meant earlier when "banding your BC" for longer range shooting using the Kestrel - which only uses G1?
Also, for folks who are using the combo unit Kestrel + Horus software, what benefit do you get from Bluetooth? If you have the 4500NV + BT, is it worth the extra $100 or not such a great value - since you can use the cable to connnect to a PC?
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Would also like to point out that the Kestrel + Horus comes with a 5 year warrenty.
Would also like to point out that the Kestrel + Horus comes with a 5 year warrenty.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyldeWest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've found a ballistic calculator and a kestrel to be better as a separate unit in my opinion. </div></div>
Agreed. Ballistic calculators can be had as cheap as $10 all the way up to $1700+ for a Trimble w FFS. Kestrel makes a great weather station and that's how it should stay. It only takes a couple minutes to input all the atmospherics manually anyways.
And FWIW, I'd be more comfortable with a Kestrel 4000 and a mobile ballistic calculator, or even just the Kestrel with an FDAC and a cheapo scientific calculator.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WyldeWest</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've found a ballistic calculator and a kestrel to be better as a separate unit in my opinion. </div></div>
Agreed. Ballistic calculators can be had as cheap as $10 all the way up to $1700+ for a Trimble w FFS. Kestrel makes a great weather station and that's how it should stay. It only takes a couple minutes to input all the atmospherics manually anyways.
And FWIW, I'd be more comfortable with a Kestrel 4000 and a mobile ballistic calculator, or even just the Kestrel with an FDAC and a cheapo scientific calculator.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
GUYS, a calculator is just that, a number cruncher with programs for different calculation paramaters.
But when the "numbers" are coming in from say, Horus/Kestrel's <span style="font-style: italic">sensors</span> they are instantaneous, as opposed to your fingers or stylus inputting them (and possibly transposing the numbers).
Is the H/K 4500 NV going to be faster for a firing solution than a ballistic PDA? I think so. Putting in the altitude density, wind angle, wind speed, barometric pressure, temperature, target bearing (for corolis effect), etc. into even the best ballistic PDA may take a TEENSY bit longer than the H/K 4500 NV will do it. D' ya THINK?
Until we get rifle scopes that do all this the H/K 4500 NV (Bluetooth enabled) is the way to go. And now Vectronix's new top of the line LRF will send target distance via Bluetooth. The H/K 4500NV will very likely need only an online upgrade to "listen" to the new Vectronix unit.
It just keeps getting better. Will ballistic PDA owners see this? I predict the price of "gently used" ballistic PDAs will drop.
GUYS, a calculator is just that, a number cruncher with programs for different calculation paramaters.
But when the "numbers" are coming in from say, Horus/Kestrel's <span style="font-style: italic">sensors</span> they are instantaneous, as opposed to your fingers or stylus inputting them (and possibly transposing the numbers).
Is the H/K 4500 NV going to be faster for a firing solution than a ballistic PDA? I think so. Putting in the altitude density, wind angle, wind speed, barometric pressure, temperature, target bearing (for corolis effect), etc. into even the best ballistic PDA may take a TEENSY bit longer than the H/K 4500 NV will do it. D' ya THINK?
Until we get rifle scopes that do all this the H/K 4500 NV (Bluetooth enabled) is the way to go. And now Vectronix's new top of the line LRF will send target distance via Bluetooth. The H/K 4500NV will very likely need only an online upgrade to "listen" to the new Vectronix unit.
It just keeps getting better. Will ballistic PDA owners see this? I predict the price of "gently used" ballistic PDAs will drop.
A
Augustus
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Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Herofish, the G1 BC will decay as velocity decreases. To accurately predict trajectories at extreme distances the BC needs to be tweaked. I like to get field verified data at 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500 for the 375 Chey. Each distance would have it's own verified BC. This process is generally referred to as banding.
Herofish, the G1 BC will decay as velocity decreases. To accurately predict trajectories at extreme distances the BC needs to be tweaked. I like to get field verified data at 1000, 1500, 2000, and 2500 for the 375 Chey. Each distance would have it's own verified BC. This process is generally referred to as banding.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Augustus,
How does one get real-time velocities at each distance? Surely it must be extrapolated from ballistic data.
I know of no chronograph that does this. The "screens" would have to be huge. There must be a way of calculating remaining velocity v.s. initial BC to get these numbers.
Augustus,
How does one get real-time velocities at each distance? Surely it must be extrapolated from ballistic data.
I know of no chronograph that does this. The "screens" would have to be huge. There must be a way of calculating remaining velocity v.s. initial BC to get these numbers.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
After reading over these is the only benefit of the Bluetooth version of the 4500 with Horus that you can link a LRF to it if they have bluetooth output? I really dont see needing the BT to sync it to a PDA unless you wanted to compare solutions.
After reading over these is the only benefit of the Bluetooth version of the 4500 with Horus that you can link a LRF to it if they have bluetooth output? I really dont see needing the BT to sync it to a PDA unless you wanted to compare solutions.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WTW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading over these is the only benefit of the Bluetooth version of the 4500 with Horus that you can link a LRF to it if they have bluetooth output? I really dont see needing the BT to sync it to a PDA unless you wanted to compare solutions. </div></div>
^^^ sort of wondering this myself. Was looking for a justification for the extra $100 cost adding BT to the H/K 4500NV since that is about what the BT adds in cost. I can't come up with many scenarios where I would need the BT capability. I would connect to PC via cable, I don't think any of the Vectronix PLRF's that have I/O capability are in my price range (1800 is high enough, can't justify $5000-%10,000). Also, it seems to me that BT will just drain batteries faster... Anyone have any strong arguments in favor of the added BT?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WTW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading over these is the only benefit of the Bluetooth version of the 4500 with Horus that you can link a LRF to it if they have bluetooth output? I really dont see needing the BT to sync it to a PDA unless you wanted to compare solutions. </div></div>
^^^ sort of wondering this myself. Was looking for a justification for the extra $100 cost adding BT to the H/K 4500NV since that is about what the BT adds in cost. I can't come up with many scenarios where I would need the BT capability. I would connect to PC via cable, I don't think any of the Vectronix PLRF's that have I/O capability are in my price range (1800 is high enough, can't justify $5000-%10,000). Also, it seems to me that BT will just drain batteries faster... Anyone have any strong arguments in favor of the added BT?
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Litehiker
The Atrag software has a bc table that allows you to input several different bc's and the distance that you want that bc to take effect. It doesn't use user inputted velocity barriers to change the bc it uses range barriers for a lack of a better term.
100m .475
940m .475
1230 .440
1400 .430
In the example above it would use .475 up to 940m and then would start degrading to .440 at 1230 and .430 at 1400.
Don't input less then 3 if you decide to mess with the BC table.
Litehiker
The Atrag software has a bc table that allows you to input several different bc's and the distance that you want that bc to take effect. It doesn't use user inputted velocity barriers to change the bc it uses range barriers for a lack of a better term.
100m .475
940m .475
1230 .440
1400 .430
In the example above it would use .475 up to 940m and then would start degrading to .440 at 1230 and .430 at 1400.
Don't input less then 3 if you decide to mess with the BC table.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
In case anyone else is wondering, I just figured out the answer to my question above. Why Bluetooth?
So, in a nutshell, you need to transfer data between your PC and the unit if you want to get the most from both the unit as well as the Horus software. To do this, you need 1 of 2 methods:
Wired (via proprietary Kestrel interface) USB or Serial options
Bluetooth
MSRP of the wired interfaces:
Serial $99
USB $119
Seems like the Bluetooth option is about $100 over the product, but this varies depending on which Kestrel.
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Another point, if you want to update your device (or Horus software) you need an interface (like above either BT or wired)...</span>
I just called Neilsen Kellerman, and the only way to upgrade your device is to ship it to them which is free (except for your shipping to them). PM me if anyone has questions on this.
Also, just a final thought, if you have multiple Kestrel units, you can use one cable interface for multiple units, so that would be more cost effective in that scenario, otherwise, I think it goes to the BT for a single unit.
In case anyone else is wondering, I just figured out the answer to my question above. Why Bluetooth?
So, in a nutshell, you need to transfer data between your PC and the unit if you want to get the most from both the unit as well as the Horus software. To do this, you need 1 of 2 methods:
Wired (via proprietary Kestrel interface) USB or Serial options
Bluetooth
MSRP of the wired interfaces:
Serial $99
USB $119
Seems like the Bluetooth option is about $100 over the product, but this varies depending on which Kestrel.
<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Another point, if you want to update your device (or Horus software) you need an interface (like above either BT or wired)...</span>
I just called Neilsen Kellerman, and the only way to upgrade your device is to ship it to them which is free (except for your shipping to them). PM me if anyone has questions on this.
Also, just a final thought, if you have multiple Kestrel units, you can use one cable interface for multiple units, so that would be more cost effective in that scenario, otherwise, I think it goes to the BT for a single unit.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dodgefan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Litehiker
The Atrag software has a bc table that allows you to input several different bc's and the distance that you want that bc to take effect. It doesn't use user inputted velocity barriers to change the bc it uses range barriers for a lack of a better term.
100m .475
940m .475
1230 .440
1400 .430
In the example above it would use .475 up to 940m and then would start degrading to .440 at 1230 and .430 at 1400.
Don't input less then 3 if you decide to mess with the BC table. </div></div>
Maybe this is insignificant hairsplitting, but it seems trivial to have the software smooth the curves for solutions at interpolated distances, rather than abrupt transitions. Significant or not? What do experienced shooters say?
I am a newbie to LR/XLR. I don't know... but Litz' book arrived today.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dodgefan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Litehiker
The Atrag software has a bc table that allows you to input several different bc's and the distance that you want that bc to take effect. It doesn't use user inputted velocity barriers to change the bc it uses range barriers for a lack of a better term.
100m .475
940m .475
1230 .440
1400 .430
In the example above it would use .475 up to 940m and then would start degrading to .440 at 1230 and .430 at 1400.
Don't input less then 3 if you decide to mess with the BC table. </div></div>
Maybe this is insignificant hairsplitting, but it seems trivial to have the software smooth the curves for solutions at interpolated distances, rather than abrupt transitions. Significant or not? What do experienced shooters say?
I am a newbie to LR/XLR. I don't know... but Litz' book arrived today.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Yeah I should of said that in my post. It uses those numbers to build the drag curve so at distances between them it will use a different bc. In my example it uses .440 at 1230m so it might use .435 at 1300m, .430 at 1400 and .425 at 1470. Hope that helps clear it up.
Yeah I should of said that in my post. It uses those numbers to build the drag curve so at distances between them it will use a different bc. In my example it uses .440 at 1230m so it might use .435 at 1300m, .430 at 1400 and .425 at 1470. Hope that helps clear it up.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
One thing to think about is that in version 3.83 if you have a BC table running and pull up the range card the data generated will use whatever BC is being used for the target range on the main screen.
As an example if you have just engaged a target at 800 in the main screen all the data shown on the range card will use .475. If you engaged a target at 1230 and pull up the range card all the data shown will use .440.
I don't know if this is true with the kestrel/Atrag setup. I haven't played with it much.
One thing to think about is that in version 3.83 if you have a BC table running and pull up the range card the data generated will use whatever BC is being used for the target range on the main screen.
As an example if you have just engaged a target at 800 in the main screen all the data shown on the range card will use .475. If you engaged a target at 1230 and pull up the range card all the data shown will use .440.
I don't know if this is true with the kestrel/Atrag setup. I haven't played with it much.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
My $15 Shooter app on Android has multiple BC slots for the same solution at user inputted velocities. Transcribe the data in Litz' book and go. The amount of gear that most shooters THINK they need is a simple overcomplication. The BT and ATRAG have their place but all Carlos Hathcock had was a 30-06 and more brains than his enemy.
My $15 Shooter app on Android has multiple BC slots for the same solution at user inputted velocities. Transcribe the data in Litz' book and go. The amount of gear that most shooters THINK they need is a simple overcomplication. The BT and ATRAG have their place but all Carlos Hathcock had was a 30-06 and more brains than his enemy.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
An anecdote from a friend was instructive about smart phone ballistics apps. He lost cell coverage at an out-of-state match, so lost the utility of his phone apps. I decided to buy a freestanding system.
An anecdote from a friend was instructive about smart phone ballistics apps. He lost cell coverage at an out-of-state match, so lost the utility of his phone apps. I decided to buy a freestanding system.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
was this an iphone? maybe a good test would be to test via airplane mode?
was this an iphone? maybe a good test would be to test via airplane mode?
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've got nothing against hunting, but I do loath "long range hunting" as a concept. I know what the odds are of a perfect hit at ranges past 1K, and anyone who takes a shot at a game animal at such a range is an idiot, pure and simple. You can't get even close to 90% cold bore hits on a 8-10 inch target at 1000 plus in the field. Therefore such a shot is totally unethical. When 1 mph of wind moves the bullet the width of the target area and flight time is +1 second, that's not a high probablility shot. You want to shoot ELR for a challenge, shoot steel or rocks or some such. Shoot all the bad guys you like. Want to shoot furry critters? Learn to get close enough to make the shot count. Stalking IS hunting. </div></div>
Spoken like a pro! Thanks for the input on all of this Cory, highly informative.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CoryT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I've got nothing against hunting, but I do loath "long range hunting" as a concept. I know what the odds are of a perfect hit at ranges past 1K, and anyone who takes a shot at a game animal at such a range is an idiot, pure and simple. You can't get even close to 90% cold bore hits on a 8-10 inch target at 1000 plus in the field. Therefore such a shot is totally unethical. When 1 mph of wind moves the bullet the width of the target area and flight time is +1 second, that's not a high probablility shot. You want to shoot ELR for a challenge, shoot steel or rocks or some such. Shoot all the bad guys you like. Want to shoot furry critters? Learn to get close enough to make the shot count. Stalking IS hunting. </div></div>
Spoken like a pro! Thanks for the input on all of this Cory, highly informative.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">was this an iphone? maybe a good test would be to test via airplane mode? </div></div>
Yes, an iPhone.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HeroFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">was this an iphone? maybe a good test would be to test via airplane mode? </div></div>
Yes, an iPhone.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Nukes, thanks, I am able to run Ballistic FTE in airplane mode, now, I think it wouldn't get as much stuff populated (requiring manual entry) but it still seems to work...
Regardless however, I am sold on the Kestrel/Horus and already have mine. I think it makes a lot of sense and value vs:
1. Multiple inexpensive or multi-use devices (iphone + shooter or Ballistic FTE + Kestrel)
2. Multiple expensive devices (Win PDA running FFS + Kestrel)
#1 is less expensive (already own and use the iphone) but requires 2 devices which don't communicate (the android ones do - but don't think even this is a integrated as the Kestrel unit)
#2 is significantly more expensive but only seems to make a different above 1500 yards. I am hopeful with Agustus' advice that even that will turn out to be a non-issue (we will see once I start shooing past that distance which may take a while.
Nukes, thanks, I am able to run Ballistic FTE in airplane mode, now, I think it wouldn't get as much stuff populated (requiring manual entry) but it still seems to work...
Regardless however, I am sold on the Kestrel/Horus and already have mine. I think it makes a lot of sense and value vs:
1. Multiple inexpensive or multi-use devices (iphone + shooter or Ballistic FTE + Kestrel)
2. Multiple expensive devices (Win PDA running FFS + Kestrel)
#1 is less expensive (already own and use the iphone) but requires 2 devices which don't communicate (the android ones do - but don't think even this is a integrated as the Kestrel unit)
#2 is significantly more expensive but only seems to make a different above 1500 yards. I am hopeful with Agustus' advice that even that will turn out to be a non-issue (we will see once I start shooing past that distance which may take a while.
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Man, I hate getting to this thread so late, but, here goes...
To say the kestrel combo is not up to par as a ballistic device is laughable. I have had mine for about a year now and it is all I use. It was good for a top 15 place at the snipers hide cup, with a first round hit at the 1250 yd target. Forgetting to dial my scope twice cost me a top 10 in the match, but I am still very happy with its performance.
Batter life is good. I have replaced batteries once over this past year and that is only because it was down to 40% and I didnt want to chance it in a big match. I also keep a extra set of AAA in my pack. Easy peezy.
The small package, and the ability to have kestel/ballistics in one useable package is very nice. Yes the small screen seems a little cramping, it actually shows all that is necessary.
This thing has more functions than I ever use. You can capture wind, direction of wind, inclination and apply instantly to your hold, or just go with a std value. I leave mine set at full and half value wind 99% of the time. SO my main screen shows my elev, as well as both wind values. Just under that, I enter the yardage. On stages with up to 6 or so targets, I will just reenter yardages after each shot. On stages with more than that, I will just write my solutions down. If that is not fast enough for you, you can just go to the range card data page and get a quick easy reference page with increments in any amt you want from 10-100 yds. That is very useful...
Like a fellow mentioned earlier, I referenced Litz's book and enter the BC in steps. I then checked it with my pda using g7 and was within .1 mil all the way to 1500 yds. The furthest I have ever shot in a match is 1400 yards and my elev was right on. reading wind on the other had is another story...ha
I also like being able to have multiple rifles in the data memory. It comes with a std set of rifles from 223 up to 338, then you can add your own on top of that. I even added my colt 45 just for fun. very easy to switch between rifles as well.
and of course you get all the useful std features of the kestrel, but I think i only ever check DA and temp and wind speed.
if anyone tries to tell you this device is just OK for recreational shooting, has either never tried this decvice, or is selling you something else. And that something else prob cost over 3 times as much.
Regards,
DT
Man, I hate getting to this thread so late, but, here goes...
To say the kestrel combo is not up to par as a ballistic device is laughable. I have had mine for about a year now and it is all I use. It was good for a top 15 place at the snipers hide cup, with a first round hit at the 1250 yd target. Forgetting to dial my scope twice cost me a top 10 in the match, but I am still very happy with its performance.
Batter life is good. I have replaced batteries once over this past year and that is only because it was down to 40% and I didnt want to chance it in a big match. I also keep a extra set of AAA in my pack. Easy peezy.
The small package, and the ability to have kestel/ballistics in one useable package is very nice. Yes the small screen seems a little cramping, it actually shows all that is necessary.
This thing has more functions than I ever use. You can capture wind, direction of wind, inclination and apply instantly to your hold, or just go with a std value. I leave mine set at full and half value wind 99% of the time. SO my main screen shows my elev, as well as both wind values. Just under that, I enter the yardage. On stages with up to 6 or so targets, I will just reenter yardages after each shot. On stages with more than that, I will just write my solutions down. If that is not fast enough for you, you can just go to the range card data page and get a quick easy reference page with increments in any amt you want from 10-100 yds. That is very useful...
Like a fellow mentioned earlier, I referenced Litz's book and enter the BC in steps. I then checked it with my pda using g7 and was within .1 mil all the way to 1500 yds. The furthest I have ever shot in a match is 1400 yards and my elev was right on. reading wind on the other had is another story...ha
I also like being able to have multiple rifles in the data memory. It comes with a std set of rifles from 223 up to 338, then you can add your own on top of that. I even added my colt 45 just for fun. very easy to switch between rifles as well.
and of course you get all the useful std features of the kestrel, but I think i only ever check DA and temp and wind speed.
if anyone tries to tell you this device is just OK for recreational shooting, has either never tried this decvice, or is selling you something else. And that something else prob cost over 3 times as much.
Regards,
DT
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Just a PS to everyone on the Kestrels - if you don't have the current version of software and want to upgrade (either Atrag or the Kestrel) you can send them in for free to the manufacturer who will update them. Call tech support and as for an RA number to do this. you can get the number from nkhome.com
They will also send you a free battery cover door if yours is damaged - so far I am pleasntly surprised with the customer service of Nielsen Kellermean
Just a PS to everyone on the Kestrels - if you don't have the current version of software and want to upgrade (either Atrag or the Kestrel) you can send them in for free to the manufacturer who will update them. Call tech support and as for an RA number to do this. you can get the number from nkhome.com
They will also send you a free battery cover door if yours is damaged - so far I am pleasntly surprised with the customer service of Nielsen Kellermean
Re: Horus-Kestrel Weather Tracker/Ballistic Clculator
Thanks everyone, especially H-K users, for all the info.
I'm getting one this week with BT. Asking questions on SH generates helpful info.
@Dodgefan- thanks for the info on trajectory BC inputs beyond 1000 meters. Guess I <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> need Litz's book after all.
As for the necessary accurate rangefinding, Bushnell advised me that my old LRF was unrepairable and offered me a 30% discount on any or their LRFs so I ordered a Fusion 10 X 42 mm. unit at $689. "Notta too bad.", as Father Guido Sarducci would say. (SNL, years ago.)
Thanks everyone, especially H-K users, for all the info.
I'm getting one this week with BT. Asking questions on SH generates helpful info.
@Dodgefan- thanks for the info on trajectory BC inputs beyond 1000 meters. Guess I <span style="font-style: italic">do</span> need Litz's book after all.
As for the necessary accurate rangefinding, Bushnell advised me that my old LRF was unrepairable and offered me a 30% discount on any or their LRFs so I ordered a Fusion 10 X 42 mm. unit at $689. "Notta too bad.", as Father Guido Sarducci would say. (SNL, years ago.)
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