Some expectations are being set that probably shouldn't have.
Mind you I'm on the outside looking in from other shooting sports and thinking about competing in PRS at the club level.
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PRS Talk Is it time to make a Major and Minor power catagory in Precision Rifle Comps?
- Thread starter ElvisUSMC
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Mind you I'm on the outside looking in from other shooting sports and thinking about competing in PRS at the club level.
OK, here's a for instance.......if I'm a shit hot USPSA revolver shooter and USPSA took revolver away because it's a "hider division", would that act motivate me to switch to open or production; or would it motivate me to say fuck it and go shoot revolver in ICORE or IDPA?
The assumption that those who are thought to be "hiding" will come back to the mainstream when their "hiding spot" is removed is not entirely rational.
the club level is where its at for just having fun competing...i have a blast at club matches and theyre way less taxing at the end of the day
You could also go over to their hidey hole and show them the what for..............but be carefulBecause people hiding from competition are pussies?
I'm guessing that yes, it would push most of those people into a bigger/real division. Because most USPSA shooters are gonna actively turn their nose up at the idea of shooting IDPA (gross), and while some of the revo shooters likely will shoot ICORE, most of them already do! Most of us shooters participate in more than one discipline, in my experience. They would still be allowed to shoot their revolvers in ICORE, but would shoot a real gun for USPSA.
And on that note, #deleterevoandL10
I think all divisions should get their participation ribbon and something off the prize table. Then we can all be winners
There are already divisions: open, women, junior, senior. The only division I think should be created might be a professional division. Let the pros shoot for trophies and cash, the rest of us unwashed masses can compete for the prize table.
There are already divisions: open, women, junior, senior. The only division I think should be created might be a professional division. Let the pros shoot for trophies and cash, the rest of us unwashed masses can compete for the prize table.
Sorry guys that my previous comment missed the point here. I just realized that a big concern in this discussion is about winning, trophies, and prizes.
At my skill level, the only reason for attending any competition is to practice under pressure. To be valuable, practice requires feedback.
The way PRS matches are run and scored, I could only hope to get feedback on misses and learn from it if I would shoot a rifle that is the opposite of what I prefer and own in terms of weight and caliber.
So, you are right that I could use any accurate rifle to "compete" in a local PRS event. However, just randomly sending lead down range and adding a name to the bottom of the score sheet is not my goal. I think the better use of my time and money would be to attend or arrange matches that are shot in a shooter-spotter configuration to improve my skills with the tools I use for hunting. (Please don't tell the ungulates that my "mouse" caliber, a .308, is dead. They may stop dropping.)
At my skill level, the only reason for attending any competition is to practice under pressure. To be valuable, practice requires feedback.
The way PRS matches are run and scored, I could only hope to get feedback on misses and learn from it if I would shoot a rifle that is the opposite of what I prefer and own in terms of weight and caliber.
So, you are right that I could use any accurate rifle to "compete" in a local PRS event. However, just randomly sending lead down range and adding a name to the bottom of the score sheet is not my goal. I think the better use of my time and money would be to attend or arrange matches that are shot in a shooter-spotter configuration to improve my skills with the tools I use for hunting. (Please don't tell the ungulates that my "mouse" caliber, a .308, is dead. They may stop dropping.)
I would suggest asking for feedback after you shoot. I have never seen a shooter denied feedback by spotters after the fact. At some smaller matches they may even call out corrections to you if you ask. I would think as long as you say you are here for practice most wouldn't care. The jr. shooters we have at our matches can have called corrections if they want.
There is really no excuse to blame the equipment. The matches here are club matches so again it is not a perfect example to what you are referring to but there are club matches in the US as well. 2 years ago a guy ran a 300WM at a match with a 5 round mag and took home 2nd place, he didn't fire as many rounds down range as most but he made them count. Another guy I know was shooting a 30'06 and doing OK in the matches (midpack if memory serves).
Run what you brung and don't worry about it. PRS is about having fun and becoming a better shooter. If you come out and learn something you are walking away with something more valuable than a t-shirt/shooting bag/etc.
Precision rifle is a sport. Why should it be made easier just for you? You will be a better shooter after the match than before. Sounds like you want a "safe space" more than you want to compete. Also most of our local matches have a 308 class. You can keep making excuses, or you can show up and shoot...
we always give help and wind calls to shooters if they ask at our club matches...thats the point of them, to improve...no one wants to see a guy out there just kicking up dust struggling all day, especially a newer shooter, as it would most likely discourage them
I spent my first competition season shooting a 308 that was a pretty standard bolt rifle setup, yes it's a bit of a handicap but not something that will keep you out of the running. You can place in the top third if you're a good shooter, and if the wind isn't blowing super hard then a top ten is totally doable. I won a club match last year shooting 308. I got beat by a couple points last weekend by a buddy running his hotrod 6.5 Addiction, which is darn near a 308 for recoil and energy on target.
Your comment about it being wasted experience if you couldn't spot your misses is also off point. First, it is possible to spot your misses with 308, just not as easy. Second, spotting misses and making corrections is more relevant to the top shooters than it is to the newcomer. What you'll find in your first few matches is that it's really hard to shoot under pressure and adrenaline and keep your head straight, and secondly that you suck way worse and shooting off a barricade or other odd position than you thought you would. Happens to everyone.
This thread cracks me up as people think this sport is the PRS. PRS is relatively new and hasn't really done anything for this sport except put people into divisions and keep your score. These matches were running just fine with prize tables and all well before the PRS popped into anyone's mind. Also a lot less gear and bags. ?
This would maybe work for shooters but I know for a fact Match Directors would hate it.
At my last match we had one shooter with a 300WM, that thing beat the crap out of everything in the 300 to 400 yard range.
Exactly. Club level is where you "enjoy shooting and see how you go". Not big matches that cost big $ in nominations. My clubs monthly matches are great fun because there are no prizes and it costs pocket change to enter and nobody expects anything but bragging rights. I've been to sponsored matches and so many people (but not all) seem to have a completely different demeanor.
For me it's the "gamers" that kind of ruin the atmosphere.
Having said that, I wonder if Tiger Woods plays big golf tournaments just for fun? Or Rafael Nadal in tennis? Or any other sportsman.
If you want to call it a competition, there must be a prize to compete for.
Just sayin....
there's a reason there is a caliber and FPS limit. steel gets beat to shit. just imagine a 4,500 ft/lb min and 338, 300NM etc. you'd need all new steel
Not my sport, not my business.
I will say simply that successful match formats reflect good rules. If one insists on rules changes, then one owns the consequences of those changes.
If one doesn't like an event, they are completely free to organize and operate one that better suits their desires. Saying I want this changed, and then expecting others to achieve that change is not productive. Change looks a lot different from the viewpoint of the person who has to implement it.
It has always been my opinion that when one adds rules, one narrows one's appeal to the new participant; and that fewer rules make for more competition and less bickering. This is one reason why I fell in love with F Class, and then cooled toward it as time progressed. Events have roots, and when they move away from their roots (not taking about any particular event), it breeds an entirely different kind of participant. The originators often move on, and that's sad.
KISS and run. And listen to Rob01 more carefully.
Greg
I will say simply that successful match formats reflect good rules. If one insists on rules changes, then one owns the consequences of those changes.
If one doesn't like an event, they are completely free to organize and operate one that better suits their desires. Saying I want this changed, and then expecting others to achieve that change is not productive. Change looks a lot different from the viewpoint of the person who has to implement it.
It has always been my opinion that when one adds rules, one narrows one's appeal to the new participant; and that fewer rules make for more competition and less bickering. This is one reason why I fell in love with F Class, and then cooled toward it as time progressed. Events have roots, and when they move away from their roots (not taking about any particular event), it breeds an entirely different kind of participant. The originators often move on, and that's sad.
KISS and run. And listen to Rob01 more carefully.
Greg
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Morning Mr Ormind, hope all is well with you and yours?
Reading your comments above and having been seeing the various posts about PRS, things such as gaming it, the apparent attitude re. Prize tables (‘I’m not turning up if there is not a big prize for me’ etc.) the IPSIC ‘mamil’ effect and by the sound of it gear race.
I have a question for you (and Mr Gimmellie, Cross, Burkes and Frank etc) -
Does PRS possess the same fun, ethics and cameraderie as the comps that proceeded it?
Brgds Terry
Hey Terry. Honestly the PRS as an entity doesn't really possess anything other than scores. The sport as a whole is growing and more and more matches both large national and club are popping up all the time. With a larger base the camaraderie will be a little lower at first as there will be more people you don't know but after a match most people in the squad will feel it and you will make new friends so it is there and will grow. Even just hanging out waiting for scores or dinner at range after the first day of shooting can get you talking to others not in your squad. The camaraderie is still there.
Ethics comes down to the match director and ROs. They need to have them and enforce them on the shooters in case one of them tries to do something they shouldn't be. Most all are very ethical so I wouldn't stress that but there is as in any part of life there always people who aren't and they are weeded out pretty quick in this smaller sport.
Fun comes down to the shooter. I always have fun, well unless I am getting rained on all weekend LOL. Having fun is why most all of us do this sport. It's our pastime and if we didn't have fun I am sure we wouldn't do it.
So find some matches and don't worry about "PRS" and just go shoot.
One of the biggest reasons i steered away from shooting USPSA and other pistol sports was all the rules. power factor this, does your gun fit into this box, is your magazine this long etc etc.
I like shooting, and getting better at shooting. Part of the fun is figuring out what helps me shoot better, and how to use it efficiently. I dont want to sit and figure out how i can game to the limits of the rules. I takes away from the time i spend shooting.
Pick a caliber you like, one is not more expensive to reload for than the other by any drastic means.
I like shooting, and getting better at shooting. Part of the fun is figuring out what helps me shoot better, and how to use it efficiently. I dont want to sit and figure out how i can game to the limits of the rules. I takes away from the time i spend shooting.
Pick a caliber you like, one is not more expensive to reload for than the other by any drastic means.
It's been my experience that those who spend time gaming the rules and focusing excessively on gear are rarely at the top of the heap.
Make sure your gear complies, then forget about it and concentrate on shooting
All shooting sports eventually turn into a kind of "arms race" where most competitors seek some kind of advantage via equipment. The only way around this would be to have all competitors draw rifles, ammo, shooting bags, tripods, and whatever equipment they want from a common source that must be used by all competitors. Everyone would be required to use the same gear...
An advantage of less rules on gear is it creates an open field for people to see what works in the real world. this is a giant advantage for shooters in general, but is a royal pain in the ass for those who can't afford to participate in the "arms race" portion of PRS.
I figured I would just learn to do the best I can with what I have. Some of my gear is very good, some is a compromise. Kinda like dance with who you brung... As long as I can use my gear well, I don't really care if I shoot 60% of the top shooter's score. I get frustrated if I have a brain cramp and do something I know could have been done better if I had more of my head in the game.
If I shoot up to my capability, I'm OK with that. There will always be some one better than me, and someone better than them too.
An advantage of less rules on gear is it creates an open field for people to see what works in the real world. this is a giant advantage for shooters in general, but is a royal pain in the ass for those who can't afford to participate in the "arms race" portion of PRS.
I figured I would just learn to do the best I can with what I have. Some of my gear is very good, some is a compromise. Kinda like dance with who you brung... As long as I can use my gear well, I don't really care if I shoot 60% of the top shooter's score. I get frustrated if I have a brain cramp and do something I know could have been done better if I had more of my head in the game.
If I shoot up to my capability, I'm OK with that. There will always be some one better than me, and someone better than them too.
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The only matches where that has been done was at a Soldier of Fortune match around 25 years ago, and most recently at the World championship shooting match. It is really interesting, but is logistically very difficult to get sponsors to provide rifles, ammo, optics, tripods, shooting bags, etc.
I don't think it would be practical for PRS matches...
I edited my post shortly after you posted the response. My edit might echo some of your thoughts.
I don't think it would be practical for PRS matches...
I edited my post shortly after you posted the response. My edit might echo some of your thoughts.
How much of an advantage is it even in this sport to have gucci gear instead of serviceable but cheaper gear?
I think I know the answer but would like to know if I'm right or not from someone who's been in this for quite some time.
That is true to a point in rifle and pistol sports. However, and I speak from considerable experience here, that is definitely NOT the case in the shotgun sports (skeet/trap/sporting clays).
A $15,000 shotgun and a $300 shooting vest do not give you any competitive advantage over a $700 gun and a $35 shell pouch for your belt.
One of the top PRS shooters in my area said some things that I thought were relevant, and good advice. "Proper practice is a must, but to a point it is wise to buy as many points as you can, then add proper practice onto those points." What he meant was that it is smart to buy gear that helps a shooter get more points in less time (ie buying points), then add onto that lots of proper practice. An example of this is the shooting pillows that most PRS shooters utilize. Buying the pillows is like buying points, same principle pertains to a really good 4-24 optic with a reticle in the first focal plane, VS a 2-7 scope with a duplex reticle in the second focal plane.
Some folks just can't afford expensive gear in addition to ammo that often runs 75 cents to $1.00 per round for an 80 round match that has a $20 entry fee like our local matches do.
I'm not saying that the arms race principle is somehow evil, or unfair, as it exists in almost all shooting sports. Allowing competitors to buy and use whatever equipment they can find advances shooting sports, and helps improve skill and techniques.
I do not believe that a shooter that can afford $10,000.00 for rifle and optic will necessarily come out higher in the rankings than a shooter who has $3,000.00 in gear and who practices a lot, and has a good coach whose advice they utilize. It isn't as simple as "buying" one's way into a match win.. proper practice makes a huge difference. Adding proper equipment, coaching, and practice together is a far better combination than simply spending a bunch of money on top end gear and thinking that the expensive gear is a replacement for practice.
Some folks just can't afford expensive gear in addition to ammo that often runs 75 cents to $1.00 per round for an 80 round match that has a $20 entry fee like our local matches do.
I'm not saying that the arms race principle is somehow evil, or unfair, as it exists in almost all shooting sports. Allowing competitors to buy and use whatever equipment they can find advances shooting sports, and helps improve skill and techniques.
I do not believe that a shooter that can afford $10,000.00 for rifle and optic will necessarily come out higher in the rankings than a shooter who has $3,000.00 in gear and who practices a lot, and has a good coach whose advice they utilize. It isn't as simple as "buying" one's way into a match win.. proper practice makes a huge difference. Adding proper equipment, coaching, and practice together is a far better combination than simply spending a bunch of money on top end gear and thinking that the expensive gear is a replacement for practice.
Good point, Only think I'd add is that the ratio of shooter skill to bought points is still pretty high.
Once you get past baseline gear like an accurate rifle with a good optic, good trigger, and predictable solid dope, and maybe one basic positional shooting bag (GC, etc), there's not a whole lot more points to be bought. All the extra doo-dads are maybe worth 3-4 points a match? Some matches less or none at all. Shooter skill is still 10:1 more important than the accessories.
I keep mulling over an idea to build a "cheap" PRS rifle that was still very competitive. It would be a fun exercise... Mental list right now is Rem 700, 6BR remage heavy contour barrel, SWFA 12x scope, inexpensive chassis like KRG Bravo or XLR Element, Harris bipod, and a game changer bag. You could do the whole thing for under $2k optic and all, and you could win with matches with that gun.
Once you get past baseline gear like an accurate rifle with a good optic, good trigger, and predictable solid dope, and maybe one basic positional shooting bag (GC, etc), there's not a whole lot more points to be bought. All the extra doo-dads are maybe worth 3-4 points a match? Some matches less or none at all. Shooter skill is still 10:1 more important than the accessories.
I keep mulling over an idea to build a "cheap" PRS rifle that was still very competitive. It would be a fun exercise... Mental list right now is Rem 700, 6BR remage heavy contour barrel, SWFA 12x scope, inexpensive chassis like KRG Bravo or XLR Element, Harris bipod, and a game changer bag. You could do the whole thing for under $2k optic and all, and you could win with matches with that gun.
I have a similar setup. It's on a 700 action with Rock Creek 24" 223AI barrel in a Choate Tactical Stock with SWFA 10X and a Timney 510. In our local 600 yard PRS match, I can hang with any of the other calibers as long as I do my part.
Not really sure, entirely, since I'm new to this
One example that comes to mind is RRS vs Feisol tripods, or even vs the PIG tripod. Along those lines.
First off anyone who knows me knows I am a cheap bastard, as my wife calls me. lol I say I am thrifty. I won't waste money on a product that doesn't give me a distinct advantage over a lesser priced product. So no if the Gucci isn't doing something special over a similar cheaper product then I don't see a reason to buy it. As mentioned you can do most of this sport with a good rifle set up and a game changer. When you only have 90 seconds then you don't have time to dick with gear. Practice getting into and moving from position to position smooth and fast and it will help a ton. More than Gucci gear.
A crappy shooter can never buy their way into a great score... I used to have a guy at my agency who would almost never come out to range days even though coaching, ammo, and even his practice time was paid for by the agency. Rather, he would buy every new gizmo, gadget or bit of gear he could think of. He would barely qualify and eventually got the nick name "gizmo Joe"... So the point above that a crappy shooter can buy their way into a good score is spot on... But buying good gear does help.
I was really pleased at the way a large PRS match in my area was set up. The match organizers put the bulk of the prize table for the amateur shooters, as their logic was that new guys need help with gear, and the top shooters probably already have good gear. I though that was very unselfish of them, and a great credit to the kind of guys that do much of the PRS shooting. The big prize...the nice rifle went on a random draw and any match participant had an equal chance of getting it.
I don't have any beef with top shooters getting prizes. I was just impressed that the match organizers went so far to encourage new shooters and help them out with the "arms race".
I was really pleased at the way a large PRS match in my area was set up. The match organizers put the bulk of the prize table for the amateur shooters, as their logic was that new guys need help with gear, and the top shooters probably already have good gear. I though that was very unselfish of them, and a great credit to the kind of guys that do much of the PRS shooting. The big prize...the nice rifle went on a random draw and any match participant had an equal chance of getting it.
I don't have any beef with top shooters getting prizes. I was just impressed that the match organizers went so far to encourage new shooters and help them out with the "arms race".
What is up with guys and pump pillows these days? It seems like every criticism of PRS is about support bags by someone who has never shot a match. I remember a few years ago the pump pillows and tac packs, etc. came out (I have them of course) and they were popular but in my experience their usage has waned greatly in the past couple of years.
I would hardly say they are a piece of "gucci" gear and doubt they would add any points to a new shooter during a match - that is unless they practice using it which is back to putting in the time. I bring mine to matches (If I remember) but it stays tethered to my range bag 95% of the time.
I would hardly say they are a piece of "gucci" gear and doubt they would add any points to a new shooter during a match - that is unless they practice using it which is back to putting in the time. I bring mine to matches (If I remember) but it stays tethered to my range bag 95% of the time.
