Leaving ammo behind

[Makinchips208]

Dropping a mag from the gun with one or more rounds in it.

Uspsa there isn’t a penalty?
IPSC there is a penalty?
I heard of a “tactical instructor” flip out and literally shoot a loaded mag someone left on the ground.

So what are some arguments for or against this? Why do some act like leaving a couple bullets behind is worse than smoking crack in the white house? Or is that only the wanna be tactical bro dudes?

I’m sure it’s situation dependent to a large degree. Gamer, vs tactical, vs home defence, vs law enforcement, vs soldier, vs assassin, vs gangster, etc.

 

[Lug Nut]

I use gloves while loading, so I don’t worry so much.

 

[MadDuner]

I use gloves while loading, so I don’t worry so much.

Doesn’t help if you handled the mag before or after loading it.

 

[mtrmn]

Apparently everything is worse than smoking crack in the WH...

 

[oneshot86]

Load when you want to not when you have too

 

[Slash0311]

First off, "tactics" in some of these competitions is a joke. Stages made by guys with little to no experience in the real world. I went to a local match. Two stages had us shooting while standing in a door way. The RO said I ran the stage wrong (I went thru it). I explained its a fatal funnel for a reason. We politely argued about it and I never went back. So take some of those things with a large grain of salt.

I was a LEO firearms instructor for 13 years. We teach if there is an opportunity, reload your weapon with a full mag but retain the partial mag. Dropping a mag with a round wouldn't be a big deal unless the shit really hit the fan and you run out.

 

[Norther]

Penalty only in IDPA.
Carry lots of ammo.
Don’t worry about it.

 

[Makinchips208]

First off, "tactics" in some of these competitions is a joke. Stages made by guys with little to no experience in the real world.

Ain’t that true!

Dropping a mag with a round wouldn't be a big deal unless the shit really hit the fan and you run out.

That makes sense also.

 

[Dirty D]

…I heard of a “tactical instructor” flip out and literally shoot a loaded mag someone left on the ground…

Unless the “tactical instructor” is someone like Bob Keller, DJ Shipley, Mike Panone etc with lots of legit credentials and actual gunfights under their belts IDGAF, so many clowns claiming to be Tactical Tommy…

 

[Makinchips208]

Unless the “tactical instructor” is someone like Bob Keller, DJ Shipley, Mike Panone etc with lots of legit credentials and actual gunfights under their belts IDGAF, so many clowns claiming to be Tactical Tommy…

I agree. This guy is a nobody as far as I know. I asked and he wouldn’t answer.

I thought it was amusing his vehement hatred for a loaded mag on the ground.

 

[Broncovan]

If some "tactical instructor" shot my loaded mag, he'd be handing me $150 for that MBX mag.
It would also be the last time he stepped foot on our range. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of asshattery.

I get the real world "funnel of death" shit, but c'mon, if you can't tell the difference between a USPSA match and a two way range, maybe you should just stick to "training" in real world situations.

And before the "gamer sports will get you killed on the streets" crowd chimes in, not training with some sort of stressor to get your heart rate and breathing up will get you killed faster.

 

[Milf Dots]

If IDPA is based on more practical, more real world stuff than USPSA- like it's marketed to be- the rules should be written, and stages designed, to reflect that.

 

[Slash0311]

If some "tactical instructor" shot my loaded mag, he'd be handing me $150 for that MBX mag.
It would also be the last time he stepped foot on our range. Ain't nobody got time for that kind of asshattery.

I get the real world "funnel of death" shit, but c'mon, if you can't tell the difference between a USPSA match and a two way range, maybe you should just stick to "training" in real world situations.

And before the "gamer sports will get you killed on the streets" crowd chimes in, not training with some sort of stressor to get your heart rate and breathing up will get you killed faster.

I don't disagree about a difference between a match and two way range. But its been proven that under stress you body and mind revert back to training.

There is a difference as well between setting up poor situations to increase stress and force a level or accuracy but some things like going through a door way are basic fundamentals that should not be broken.

 

[nso123]

I don't disagree about a difference between a match and two way range. But its been proven that under stress you body and mind revert back to training.

There is a difference as well between setting up poor situations to increase stress and force a level or accuracy but some things like going through a door way are basic fundamentals that should not be broken.

I seem to recall discussions of finding police officers with brass in their hands in the days of revolvers. They had been trained to not drop it on the ground during a reload.

 

[xsn10s]

First off, "tactics" in some of these competitions is a joke. Stages made by guys with little to no experience in the real world. I went to a local match. Two stages had us shooting while standing in a door way. The RO said I ran the stage wrong (I went thru it). I explained its a fatal funnel for a reason. We politely argued about it and I never went back. So take some of those things with a large grain of salt.

I was a LEO firearms instructor for 13 years. We teach if there is an opportunity, reload your weapon with a full mag but retain the partial mag. Dropping a mag with a round wouldn't be a big deal unless the shit really hit the fan and you run out.

I had that same argument about many things at various competitions. I took the penalty and didn't even bother doing it their way as long as it was safe. Like you said keeping those rounds is best since you may need them. But if dropped better to focus on the task at hand rather than worry about the mag.

 

[xsn10s]

I seem to recall discussions of finding police officers with brass in their hands in the days of revolvers. They had been trained to not drop it on the ground during a reload.

Newhall Incident. The beginning of modern law enforcement firearms training reform. Some of those reports have been called out as untrue. I haven't delved deep into it or confirmed any findings. https://www.police1.com/officer-sho...ght-on-the-newhall-incident-qCwXs8stVK31qmSC/

 

[Makinchips208]

Newhall Incident. The beginning of modern law enforcement firearms training reform. Some of those reports have been called out as untrue. I haven't delved deep into it or confirmed any findings.

Correct. It was proven, by eye witness as well as crime scene photographs that the shell casings were on the ground, not the pocket, and the weapon was actually reloaded. He got flanked and killed in the time it took to reload from the stupid dump pouched they were issued. A speed loader would have helped.

Lucky Gunner has a good article on that incident.

 

[xsn10s]

Correct. It was proven, by eye witness as well as crime scene photographs that the shell casings were on the ground, not the pocket, and the weapon was actually reloaded. He got flanked and killed in the time it took to reload from the stupid dump pouched they were issued. A speed loader would have helped.

Lucky Gunner has a good article on that incident.

The sad fact back when I helped train law enforcement twenty years ago they got more driving classes than firearms training. It was really up to the individual officer to gain more skills.

 

[Broncovan]

I don't disagree about a difference between a match and two way range. But its been proven that under stress you body and mind revert back to training.

There is a difference as well between setting up poor situations to increase stress and force a level or accuracy but some things like going through a door way are basic fundamentals that should not be broken.

Like I said, I get it. Fortunately, 99.9% of us will never be in a situation to get stuck in a doorway. But if I am caught in that situation, I hope I rely on my muscle memory to reload and perform remedial actions to clear malfunctions and my common sense to do it while under cover or in a doorway.

 

[Downtown]

It's not that hard. Any thing with a timer is a game, people are competitive, rules be will written.. then pushed to the limit. That's gaming. Training is different. Both are useful and we should be intelligent enough to recognize the difference.

 

[xsn10s]

Shooting matches are just a game. Using stress to train should be force on force, not a clock. The other stuff like movement, multiple target scenarios, ete is just combative markmanship at best. And doesn't need stress. Stress in that type of training probably is detrimental imo.

 

[Deathrowdave]

I shoot bolt actions and carry a revolver

 

[wade2big]

I shoot bolt actions and carry a revolver

 

[Deathrowdave]

Thanks , like to meet you

 

[LuvDog]

Load when you want to not when you have too

Yup. For a recent stage, I fired 4 shots and dumped that mag while I was running to the next spot and reloaded in between for a long string of fire

 

[Makinchips208]

Yup. For a recent stage, I fired 4 shots and dumped that mag while I was running to the next spot and reloaded in between for a long string of fire

So you dumped a mag that had ammo.
Would it add time to retain it, or would it slow down the movement probably?
If so how much slower?

I don’t see a problem with that if it gets the course or gunfight over with quicker.

 

[JJMoody]

The Waco Kid story should remind us all why it’s important to never leave your enemy an opportunity

 

[Makinchips208]

The Waco Kid story should remind us all why it’s important to never leave your enemy an opportunity

Well that settles it! Never leave anything behind!

 

[xsn10s]

So you dumped a mag that had ammo.
Would it add time to retain it, or would it slow down the movement probably?
If so how much slower?

I don’t see a problem with that if it gets the course or gunfight over with quicker.

It's probably faster to dump the mag and run up to the next section to fire from in this case. And that's where it's a game. For me I'd either reload prior to moving to the next section and fire on the move. Many times I'd get a penalty for doing this as they would want me to fire from a designated area or box. I figured if I could see the threat then I'm sending rounds at them if I can hit the A zone. Many of these stages you'd get to walk through first so you plan mag dumps here and there to cut down time. IRL I figured you wouldn't get a walk through so I tried to do a mag exchange and retain a partial mag prior to moving if possible. Or just do a speed or combat reload at the next section of fire. There's a lot of differences on how to do things here IRL vs a match/ game. Which is why I stopped shooting competitions and went back to training by myself. I might do a match or two this year. Depends on how my local club runs the match.

 

[fpgt72]

I (and I know this will come to a shock to some of you) have very strong opinions on this. The people that run these games, and many of them that play these games get very unhappy when you call them games. They think it is all so serious.....well it is serious, you are playing with guns, so all that is a given. But you thinking your game is going to teach you the skills to survive when someone shoots back at you....guess again.

For some reason they don't like that. So I drifted to games like shooting bowling pins, or something along those lines and less, tacticool. And really that is all it is. I will not get into the over weight people that think they are the next Rambo, or better John Wick. Dude you can't walk a flight of stairs.

This guy is better then most. But he does go into what I am trying to say. Playing the game is different from doing it in a life or death type deal. They are two very different things, and being good at the game is going to get you killed in short order. The video goes into the whys and why the two "skills" do not overlap.

 

[hlee]

Games. They’re supposed to be fun.

Took my son to shoot NSCA nationals for 3 years. I always thought there should be one stage where the shooter doesn’t get a show pair, and starts from a seated position with his gun across his lap. Perhaps also taking a draw on a can of soda. You know, for the realz…

 

[LuvDog]

So you dumped a mag that had ammo.
Would it add time to retain it, or would it slow down the movement probably?
If so how much slower?

I don’t see a problem with that if it gets the course or gunfight over with quicker.

Yup. Dumped a mag that had ammo.

And yes, it would have taken more time to retain the mag and put it back in a pouch and then also grab a fresh mag and reload.
This is USPSA and yes it's a game - not real life combat.

 

[jmp1]

The sad fact back when I helped train law enforcement twenty years ago they got more driving classes than firearms training. It was really up to the individual officer to gain more skills.

I've always been amazed at the lack of proficiency with some LE. I've been at our local range while the road agents are doing their quals. Shooting steel......miss miss miss hit miss miss.....all day. Kinda crazy!!

 

[xsn10s]

I've always been amazed at the lack of proficiency with some LE. I've been at our local range while the road agents are doing their quals. Shooting steel......miss miss miss hit miss miss.....all day. Kinda crazy!!

Yes it can be, depends on the agency and what section of each agency. There are many individual officers that take it seriously. But firearms skills is just one of the skills they need.

 

[higginsworksforme]

If you try to apply logic or reality to gun games you'll just get frustrated.

 

[xsn10s]

If you try to apply logic or reality to gun games you'll just get frustrated.

Yes but there are ways to operate within the rules to gain good skills. The issue for me was dealing with dweebs that kept on telling me "tactical" this and "tactical" that. Guys that would piss their pants if you got a bit western with them. After getting tired of dealing with the chess club types I said adios to competitions.

 

[xsn10s]

Now as far as an instructor getting so irate as to shoot someone's partially loaded mag I haven't heard of this. And I'd probably have some serious concerns of someone that did. I've trained with some pretty big names and some that should of been big names. The ones that didn't have big names were ones that worked in some esoteric units. And they probably wouldn't shoot a dumped mag. They'd discuss why you shouldn't, but I doubt they'd get that irate. They get more angry with someone leaving cover and running to another spot without having weapons up. For them distance is your friend because of better marksmanship abilities. I should say for some of them.

 

[FredHammer]

I'd say paintballers would be the best gamers to survive real two way range. Those guys are always firing from cover and not unnecessarily exposing themselves from their cover too.

 

[xsn10s]

I'd say paintballers would be the best gamers to survive real two way range. Those guys are always firing from cover and not unnecessarily exposing themselves from their cover too.

Definitely up there. One bad thing is the big capacity. Encourages spray and pray. But it is true that game has value. Pain is a great motivator not to get shot lol.

 

[xsn10s]

I'd say paintballers would be the best gamers to survive real two way range. Those guys are always firing from cover and not unnecessarily exposing themselves from their cover too.

I did a "Night Time Officer Survival" course with Ken Good and Barry Dueck before they were big names somewhere in the mid 90's. They used lower capacity paintball guns for that class. This was before I got to the "bruise like a peach" stage in life lol.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

It's probably faster to dump the mag and run up to the next section to fire from in this case. And that's where it's a game. For me I'd either reload prior to moving to the next section and fire on the move. Many times I'd get a penalty for doing this as they would want me to fire from a designated area or box. I figured if I could see the threat then I'm sending rounds at them if I can hit the A zone. Many of these stages you'd get to walk through first so you plan mag dumps here and there to cut down time. IRL I figured you wouldn't get a walk through so I tried to do a mag exchange and retain a partial mag prior to moving if possible. Or just do a speed or combat reload at the next section of fire. There's a lot of differences on how to do things here IRL vs a match/ game. Which is why I stopped shooting competitions and went back to training by myself. I might do a match or two this year. Depends on how my local club runs the match.

So since you’ve shot comp I would like to know what’s up with the white no shoot targets over the regular brown targets? Is that just to make the target trickier? If so, then why not just designate a head shot on that particular stage? Or if it’s supposed to be a hostage, then why does it get shot whenever and not FIRST like it should be? OP and I have had multiple discussions about the ammo thing, but this is another issue that neither of us have discussed with each other.

 

[ClangClang]

So since you’ve shot comp I would like to know what’s up with the white no shoot targets over the regular brown targets? Is that just to make the target trickier? If so, then why not just designate a head shot on that particular stage? Or if it’s supposed to be a hostage, then why does it get shot whenever and not FIRST like it should be? OP and I have had multiple discussions about the ammo thing, but this is another issue that neither of us have discussed with each other.

USPSA is meant to be "freestyle" - AKA shoot the targets in the location and order you think are the most advantageous. The rules do not allow a stage description to make headshots mandatory just by saying so. If the stage designer wants to force a headshot, then cover the body with a no-shoot. It's frankly a much better way to do things because it means there is zero ambiguity in the stage description.

There's also no concept of tactics. Just neutralize all the targets as fast as you can and accurately as you can. That breeds the best shooters. It's pretty undeniable.

There is a reason that SFOD-A and other Tier 1 units hire competition shooting championship to teach their guys how to shoot.

 

[xsn10s]

So since you’ve shot comp I would like to know what’s up with the white no shoot targets over the regular brown targets? Is that just to make the target trickier? If so, then why not just designate a head shot on that particular stage? Or if it’s supposed to be a hostage, then why does it get shot whenever and not FIRST like it should be? OP and I have had multiple discussions about the ammo thing, but this is another issue that neither of us have discussed with each other.

In IDPA it's usually a hostage or innocent bystander. That's one of the issues I had with competitions. The shooter has no discretion to make decisions on how to handle the situation. So if the designer of the course is focused on the difficulty of getting through a course of fire in the shortest amount of time then they miss many details on how to handle any given situation. while you can gain many different firearms skills while shooting competitions if you aren't careful you'll also develop undesirable habits. As far as USPSA I stopped shooting those first because they conflicted with the training I had from instructors like Scott Reitz. I got tired of IDPA later on for the same reason.

 

[higginsworksforme]

I was at a two gun match where instead of awkwardly stretching around a barricade to shoot three targets a guy just buttonhooked around and mozambiqued them from three feet away. Mega based. The match director sperged out and started screeching about penalties.

 

[xsn10s]

I was at a two gun match where instead of awkwardly stretching around a barricade to shoot three targets a guy just buttonhooked around and mozambiqued them from three feet away. Mega based. The match director sperged out and started screeching about penalties.

Yeah I took a ton of penalties because I didn't follow their protocols. I got tired of the guys from the chess club telling me what was "tactical" and what wasn't. Also why would you shoot from a predesignated box? You wouldn't. I'd take shots when I could identify a threat, and distance was usually my friend.

 

[fpgt72]

All of that is true, however the games (you have no idea how much shit I take for calling them games) are just that games. It is not the real world.

With the vast majority of gun owners standing in a bay and shooting square with the non moving target it does bring those people something.

If you have ever been shot at you quickly learn that it is really just a game. And looking for cover behind a 500 gal propane tank might not be the best idea.

The games will get you to move and shoot, and shoot at something that is moving, and in some fairly odd positions. That is a good thing. But it is still a game. Once you do the "real thing" the games just seem so fake. I can't play a video game where you race cars (done that for real), fly airplanes (done that for real) or shoot in a realistic setting as they all just seem hollow and not realistic.

Almost 20 years after selling my airplane I bought flight sim, and it was still not quite the real thing. My mind still remembers the feel, smells, noise of flying the real thing.

It is just not the same. But I do hold firm in the gun games can teach you something, to move and shoot, and shoot at the moving. Many people never get to do that.

 

[higginsworksforme]

All of that is true, however the games (you have no idea how much shit I take for calling them games) are just that games. It is not the real world.

Competition is as real as it will ever get for most people.

 

[502Chevelle]

You have to keep in mind, it is a game. That is all it is. It is not tactical training, it is a game. The benefits you can gain from shooting in games is huge, and you can apply those lessons in the street, you just have to mix the game skills with street skills. One thing people don’t mention, is shooting under stress and pressure. Games will put you under stress and pressure. If walk around life is 0 snp, and a match is 5 snp, and a fight is 10 snp, I’d rather be able to go from 5 to 10, than have to start at 0. Every body thinks they are good to go until you put them under stress and pressure, and then you see them fall apart.

 

[fpgt72]

All so true, and that is another thing most shooters that just "target shoot" don't get to "feel". Even if there is plenty of time to do the course of fire, for example CMP match with an automatic rifle. You still have other people there shooting, people watching you and people scoring you. If nothing else you don't want to look like a fool. I can also tell you that you can do a CMP match with a trapdoor springfield if you hustle. It was a lot of fun.

When I could move I had a different outlook on the gun games, and I freely admit it colors my view of them. I never shot the same gun twice, I even played games that I knew I had zero chance of winning because I just wanted to see how I would do with that specific gun. SAA at a bowling pin match for example, or that trapdoor story. It was just fun to do it with something new. I just tend to get bored shooting the same thing. I have a feeling I would have placed much better but that is not really what I was looking for. I wanted to just play.

 

[Makinchips208]

You have to keep in mind, it is a game. That is all it is. It is not tactical training, it is a game. The benefits you can gain from shooting in games is huge, and you can apply those lessons in the street, you just have to mix the game skills with street skills. One thing people don’t mention, is shooting under stress and pressure. Games will put you under stress and pressure. If walk around life is 0 snp, and a match is 5 snp, and a fight is 10 snp, I’d rather be able to go from 5 to 10, than have to start at 0. Every body thinks they are good to go until you put them under stress and pressure, and then you see them fall apart.

Kinda like the Yerkes-Dodson curve?

And so our goal for games or training would be to increase our ability to handle stress, essentially cheating the curve so my peak performance is much higher than it was previous. Eh?