moa vs mils, the forbidden thread

[Mike Casselton]

TRANSLATED for the dipshits: ranges in this instance is NOT a place you go shoot your rifle. In this use @LeftyJason means differing yardages (if you use MOA) you are from the target. Or, if you use the MIL, differing meters from the target.











/s

With that thought in mind, I gotta know what the hell Bushnell engineers were thinking when they built the software for the original 1 mile range finder. This is the one that looks like the Con-X but it doesn't have that capability.

If I set the readout to MOA, I get the distance in yards.

If I want my corrections in MIL, I have to also use fucking meters for distance measurement. Can't have yards and MIL come-ups.

Who the hell came up with that nonsense?

 

[Makinchips208]

If I want my corrections in MIL, I have to also use fucking meters for distance measurement. Can't have yards and MIL come-ups.

Who the hell came up with that nonsense?

Zats cuth MIL ith metric.

 

[FredHammer]

Haha! No, it was just mentioned to use target widths as hold offs.

Welp, “Nothing new under the Sun” right!

 

[Im2bent]

With that thought in mind, I gotta know what the hell Bushnell engineers were thinking when they built the software for the original 1 mile range finder. This is the one that looks like the Con-X but it doesn't have that capability.

If I set the readout to MOA, I get the distance in yards.

If I want my corrections in MIL, I have to also use fucking meters for distance measurement. Can't have yards and MIL come-ups.

Who the hell came up with that nonsense?

Hello see (how the hell do you spell that) milli is Latin, therefore european, therefore metric.

 

[cuirc]

Not your fault. This happens basically every single time this topic comes up. It's normal. Hopefully we can help people learn the truth over time.

They call you tater salad?

They call you tater salad?

Are you still on the loose the white coat folks are looking for you. You are still drunk turn yourself in and sober up on the other hand that might not serve humanity I hate to think what you are like sober.

 

[cuirc]

Hello see (how the hell do you spell that) milli is Latin, therefore european, therefore metric.

Yards is what we use even with mils people use yards I shot a 2100 yard target at Nightforce and the measurement was in yards but my range finder gave me a setting in mils for a mil scope

 

[Mike Casselton]

Hello see (how the hell do you spell that) milli is Latin, therefore european, therefore metric.

Milli est Vanilli

 

[giveemshell2]

Horsepower (mils) versus Goosepower (moa)

It’s more precise

 

[FredHammer]

^ This is intriguing.

I tried to get my wife to hold a few inches last night, roughly from a point in my center waist - halfway to my knee. Apparently she still hasn't recovered from that bad headache of 2022.

But she thinks it constitutes 6” right?

 

[diggler1833]

But she thinks it constitutes 6” right?

Half the dudes on here have convinced their significant others - that something that only covers the width of their palm is somehow 6 inches.

We like to call those guys: MOA shooters.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

OK Children, Listen UP, I am Mr. Kirste, your teacher. I have a Masters Degree in Education with a specialty in SPECIAL EDUCATION, so maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to bed.

This is a scope reticle. Notice that it has a line running up and down and a line running sideways. On those lines are dots. You will notice that there are four dots on each line past the big green dot in the center.

This is the shape of a typical silhouette target that we shoot at

Note right target has reticle aimed at silhouette. Notice our shot (the red dot) was TWO dots on the scope reticle to the right,

So to hit the center of the target we FAVOR TWO Dots to LEFT

Notice now our shot has now landed in the center of the target. Has anyone mentioned INCHES, has anyone mention MILS,

Has anyone mentioned converting anything?

Now, if one is using this to sight in our scope, and our shot is landing two dots to the right, we turn our windage dial two MOA or two MIL to the left. (Depending on the type of scope we have). That will put our crosshair at the center of the target.

Please note that your scope may have dots or dashes. It may have a Christmas tree. If your scope has neither, it really is time for you to upgrade.

Can’t get any simpler.

 

[Sullypants1]

moving my scope 1 moa left at 800 yards will or will not cause my impact to shift to the left 8 inches??

In my part of the world it does and always has.

Ignoring the fact that I do not care about linear projection...tt won't

it'll be 8-3/8" and change

 

[giveemshell2]

OK Children, Listen UP, I am Mr. Kirste, your teacher. I have a Masters Degree in Education with a specialty in SPECIAL EDUCATION, so maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to bed.

View attachment 8474906

This is a scope reticle. Notice that it has a line running up and down and a line running sideways. On those lines are dots. You will notice that there are four dots on each line past the big green dot in the center.

View attachment 8474909

This is the shape of a typical silhouette target that we shoot at

Note right target has reticle aimed at silhouette. Notice our shot (the red dot) was TWO dots on the scope reticle to the right,

So to hit the center of the target we FAVOR TWO Dots to LEFT

View attachment 8474910

Notice now our shot has now landed in the center of the target. Has anyone mentioned INCHES, has anyone mention MILS,

Has anyone mentioned converting anything?

Now, if one is using this to sight in our scope, and our shot is landing two dots to the right, we turn our windage dial two MOA or two MIL to the left. (Depending on the type of scope we have). That will put our crosshair at the center of the target.

Please note that your scope may have dots or dashes. It may have a Christmas tree. If your scope has neither, it really is time for you to upgrade.

Can’t get any simpler.

Doesn’t the approximate goosepower of the scope effect holds?

 

[Sullypants1]

Guys please if I could delete the thread I would

Do you know how much unbridled joy is popping off right now? This is the most action any of us have got in years.

 

[giveemshell2]

Do you know how much unbridled joy is popping off right now? This is the most action any of us have got in years.

Oh no I understand fully now. My next topic will be iron sights or optics

 

[LeftyJason]

OK Children, Listen UP, I am Mr. Kirste, your teacher. I have a Masters Degree in Education with a specialty in SPECIAL EDUCATION, so maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to bed.

View attachment 8474906

This is a scope reticle. Notice that it has a line running up and down and a line running sideways. On those lines are dots. You will notice that there are four dots on each line past the big green dot in the center.

View attachment 8474909

This is the shape of a typical silhouette target that we shoot at

Note right target has reticle aimed at silhouette. Notice our shot (the red dot) was TWO dots on the scope reticle to the right,

So to hit the center of the target we FAVOR TWO Dots to LEFT

View attachment 8474910

Notice now our shot has now landed in the center of the target. Has anyone mentioned INCHES, has anyone mention MILS,

Has anyone mentioned converting anything?

Now, if one is using this to sight in our scope, and our shot is landing two dots to the right, we turn our windage dial two MOA or two MIL to the left. (Depending on the type of scope we have). That will put our crosshair at the center of the target.

Please note that your scope may have dots or dashes. It may have a Christmas tree. If your scope has neither, it really is time for you to upgrade.

Can’t get any simpler.

Confused. Moved my scope 2 on the turret. Didn't move 2 dots. What to do?

Note this is messing with you. I don't have that scope anymore. Leopold mark ar 3-9x40. mildot reticle. Sfp. 1/2 Moa elevation. Iphy windage. Gave to my FIL to use on a non dial 22lr.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Confused. Moved my scope 2 on the turret. Didn't move 2 dots. What to do?

Note this is messing with you. I don't have that scope anymore. Leopold mark ar 3-9x40. mildot reticle. Sfp. 1/2 Moa elevation. Iphy windage. Gave to my FIL to use on a non dial 22lr.

I had one of those. The first Imill dot worked out to 300 yards (which is the max distance of our local range) and had to use MOA for everything past. It was a mess. But with a decent ballistic program and a Leupold that always returned to zero, it actually worked. BUT with no zero stop, always had to start the day, making sure one mil dot was 300 yards.

 

[Sullypants1]

Oh no I understand fully now. My next topic will be iron sights or optics

Not even a debate.

Diopter sights are superior

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Oh no I understand fully now. My next topic will be iron sights or optics

No issue, get a set of see through rings for your scope, you’ll be ready to go.

 

[CSTactical]

 

[hlee]

This thread is like an argument at a Thanksgiving in Ohio — someone always has to have the last word, which causes someone else to need to have the last word, and nobody ever leaves, and the best that can be hoped for is the argument is postponed until the Christmas get-together.

-Stan

Kinda like the opposite of a Southern Goodbye. But instead of carrying a productive conversation, it is an argument that moves to the foyer, then to the front porch, then to the drive way, and ending up by hanging on the window sill of the car door for an extra 30 minutes.

 

[hlee]

It’s ANGLES not numbers.

I'm quoting just this little part for the WTF value...

 

[giveemshell2]

No issue, get a set of see through rings for your scope, you’ll be ready to go.

View attachment 8474991

I mount two scopes side by side and look between them

 

[diggler1833]

No issue, get a set of see through rings for your scope, you’ll be ready to go.

View attachment 8474991

Those come standard on every Marlin .30-30 I've seen in the last 14 gunshows....

 

[hlee]

14 gunshows....

Do you wanna know what? That's your problem right there.

LetterKenny (2016) - S01E03 Fartbook clip with quote Do you wanna know what? That's your problem right there. Yarn is the best search for video clips by quote. Find the exact moment in a TV show, movie, or music video you want to share. Easily move forward or backward to get to the...

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[roostercogburn98]

No issue, get a set of see through rings for your scope, you’ll be ready to go.

View attachment 8474991

I like these mo betta

 

[Makinchips208]

OK Children, Listen UP, I am Mr. Kirste, your teacher. I have a Masters Degree in Education with a specialty in SPECIAL EDUCATION, so maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to bed.

View attachment 8474906

This is a scope reticle. Notice that it has a line running up and down and a line running sideways. On those lines are dots. You will notice that there are four dots on each line past the big green dot in the center.

View attachment 8474909

This is the shape of a typical silhouette target that we shoot at

Note right target has reticle aimed at silhouette. Notice our shot (the red dot) was TWO dots on the scope reticle to the right,

So to hit the center of the target we FAVOR TWO Dots to LEFT

View attachment 8474910

Notice now our shot has now landed in the center of the target. Has anyone mentioned INCHES, has anyone mention MILS,

Has anyone mentioned converting anything?

Now, if one is using this to sight in our scope, and our shot is landing two dots to the right, we turn our windage dial two MOA or two MIL to the left. (Depending on the type of scope we have). That will put our crosshair at the center of the target.

Please note that your scope may have dots or dashes. It may have a Christmas tree. If your scope has neither, it really is time for you to upgrade.

Can’t get any simpler.

Uh….. umm…

Uh…

At what distance, teacher?

 

[Im2bent]

OK Children, Listen UP, I am Mr. Kirste, your teacher. I have a Masters Degree in Education with a specialty in SPECIAL EDUCATION, so maybe, just maybe we can put this issue to bed.

View attachment 8474906

This is a scope reticle. Notice that it has a line running up and down and a line running sideways. On those lines are dots. You will notice that there are four dots on each line past the big green dot in the center.

View attachment 8474909

This is the shape of a typical silhouette target that we shoot at

Note right target has reticle aimed at silhouette. Notice our shot (the red dot) was TWO dots on the scope reticle to the right,

So to hit the center of the target we FAVOR TWO Dots to LEFT

View attachment 8474910

Notice now our shot has now landed in the center of the target. Has anyone mentioned INCHES, has anyone mention MILS,

Has anyone mentioned converting anything?

Now, if one is using this to sight in our scope, and our shot is landing two dots to the right, we turn our windage dial two MOA or two MIL to the left. (Depending on the type of scope we have). That will put our crosshair at the center of the target.

Please note that your scope may have dots or dashes. It may have a Christmas tree. If your scope has neither, it really is time for you to upgrade.

Can’t get any simpler.

Lemme guess you have one of these to go with that scope......

 

[VandelayIndustries]

I didn’t read through this entire thread, that moa guy is just too thick. Did anyone even bring up the Kraft wind stuff and how well it fits with mils? And mils is just base 10. Pennies and dimes as frank has mentioned before. Mils is the present and future. Moa is for the boomers who play benchrest.

 

[RayDBonz]

Both are angular measurements. Nothing to do with the metric system, inches, centimeters, or pubic hairs.
As long as the knobs and reticle match, it's something a third-grader can figure out.
Go be ignorant elsewhere FFS.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Both are angular measurements. Nothing to do with the metric system, inches, centimeters, or pubic hairs.
As long as the knobs and reticle match, it's something a third-grader can figure out.
Go be ignorant elsewhere FFS.

Skittles. It's Skittles. And furlongs, and Rods, and nipple clips.

 

[Makinchips208]

Greek. The Greeks invented the angle. So moa and mil are derivatives of the Greek system.

Edit: I was wrong. the correct answer is the Babylonians.

 

[Im2bent]

Greek. The Greeks invented the angle. So moa and mil are derivatives of the Greek system

So they are both metric.

 

[stanley_white]

Greek. The Greeks invented the angle. So moa and mil are derivatives of the Greek system

“Miss! Your impact was Three Greeks left of center.”

-Stan

 

[Aftermath]

Greek. The Greeks invented the angle. So moa and mil are derivatives of the Greek system

Why the 4,000-Year-Old Babylonian Math Base 60 System Is Still Used

Babylonian mathematics relied on a base 60, or sexagesimal numeric system, that proved so effective it continues to be used 4,000 years later.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[Aftermath]

The ancient Babylonians base 60 system is what our modern time system is based on. They were fabulous land navigators and used the "clock" to navigate. Some town would be a given heading and a distance from some given point. Truly, some vector mathematics involved. 60 minutes, 60 seconds...from this came the use in circles.

 

[hlee]

Why the 4,000-Year-Old Babylonian Math Base 60 System Is Still Used

Babylonian mathematics relied on a base 60, or sexagesimal numeric system, that proved so effective it continues to be used 4,000 years later.

www.thoughtco.com

This is kinda interesting, but…

They quote an equation for calculating the product of 2 integers.

AB=[(A+B)2-(A-B)2]/4

This equation is false, and any 8th grader exposed to algebra for the first time should be able to recognize it as such…

AB =/= [(A+B)2-(A-B)2]/4 = B

I have developed a postulate for “kinda interesting” articles on the internet; “if one part is bull shit, then all parts are likely bullshit.”

I developed this postulate while reading through the chain-email-like “supposedly” historical etymology of common English phrases that Maggot posted, then reposted, in the Pit. All of it was- as the postulate says- bullshit.

Regardless, I post the Hlee postulate here, free for all to use, without license or recompense. I find it very useful in disabusing myself of the bullshit I read on the internet.

 

[Makinchips208]

…postulate… “if one part is bull shit, then all parts are likely bullshit.”

….I post the Hlee postulate here, free for all to use, without license or recompense. ….

Nice!

 

[Makinchips208]

Why the 4,000-Year-Old Babylonian Math Base 60 System Is Still Used

Babylonian mathematics relied on a base 60, or sexagesimal numeric system, that proved so effective it continues to be used 4,000 years later.

www.thoughtco.com

Legend has it that while the Babylonians were building a Great Tower to reach up to Heaven, that they started debating MOA vs Mil.…..

 

[Aftermath]

This is kinda interesting, but…

They quote an equation for calculating the product of 2 integers.

AB=[(A+B)2-(A-B)2]/4View attachment 8476215

This equation is false, and any 8th grader exposed to algebra for the first time should be able to recognize it as such…

AB =/= [(A+B)2-(A-B)2]/4 = B

I have developed a postulate for “kinda interesting” articles on the internet; “if one part is bull shit, then all parts are likely bullshit.”

I developed this postulate while reading through the chain-email-like “supposedly” historical etymology of common English phrases that Maggot posted, then reposted, in the Pit. All of it was- as the postulate says- bullshit.

Regardless, I post the Hlee postulate here, free for all to use, without license or recompense. I find it very useful in disabusing myself of the bullshit I read on the internet.

Use base 60 and try that formula....also notice:

 

[Makinchips208]

Use base 60 and try that formula....also notice: View attachment 8476263

So fundamentally we have a debate between base 10 and base 60.
Base 10 (mil) for the finger counters and crayon eaters.
Base 60 (moa) for the thinkers and intellectuals.

 

[Aftermath]

I was just pointing out that it was the ancient Babylonians that gave us 60 minutes and such rather than the Greeks. It is interesting that they developed a base 60 system and that they figured out the positional relationships to describe very large numbers. We use that system in our base 10 system....

The number 6543.21 is 6x10^3+5x10^2+4x10^1+3x10^0+2x10^-1+1x10^-2

EDIT to add.... in base 60, that is a VERY large number.... 6x60^3+5x60^2....

 

[Makinchips208]

I was just pointing out that it was the ancient Babylonians that gave us 60 minutes and such rather than the Greeks. It is interesting that they developed a base 60 system and that they figured out the positional relationships to describe very large numbers. We use that system in our base 10 system....

The number 6543.21 is 6x10^3+5x10^2+4x10^1+3x10^0+2x10^-1+1x10^-2

EDIT to add.... in base 60, that is a VERY large number.... 6x60^3+5x60^2....

Yes you are right. I was incorrect in saying that it was the Greeks.

 

[Logan ray lande]

Using your reticle vs your natural inclination as a human is moronic.

It assumes you have matching reticles and leaves you untrained to handle a situation without. Using linear allows shooter and spotter to ensure the correction is right adding redundancy.

Are you going to be able to tell your shooter that he missed 42” at 1000 yards? Lmao you can judge 42” at 1000 yards you see splash and run out there and pull a tape to see how much he missed by then run back an tell him

 

[Maurygold]

Are you going to be able to tell your shooter that he missed 42” at 1000 yards? Lmao you can judge 42” at 1000 yards you see splash and run out there and pull a tape to see how much he missed by then run back an tell him

Try reading the thread before commenting.

 

[Logan ray lande]

moving my scope 1 moa left at 800 yards will or will not cause my impact to shift to the left 8 inches??

In my part of the world it does and always has.

If you just seen it hit measure with reticle if it’s 1 moa left on the reticle adjust 1 moa, instead you see splash you measure splash in inches then covert to moa then move 1 moa. What EVERYBODY is saying yes you could measure everything inches for moa it directly correlates but there is a lot more room for error trying to measure inches at distance then there is using the ruler in the scope to measure… you should have to do ZERO converting to put your next round on target. It’s as plain and cut dry as this.

If I’m understanding this correctly you are seeing impact and assuming or measuring it 18 inches left then your adjusting for it? If so refer to above it is MUCH quicker to cut that step completely out and to just adjust off what the reticle shows miss by 3 adjust by 3

Or are you just arguing moa and mil is also linear measurement?

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I Think I Understand. The mark of intelligence is to simplify the difficult and complicated. The mark of stupidity is to make easy things hard and then try to explain that understanding is the mark of smart.

 

[Maurygold]

I Think I Understand. The mark of intelligence is to simplify the difficult and complicated. The mark of stupidity is to make easy things hard and then try to explain that understanding is the mark of smart.

What is the mark of red ano on a firearm???

 

[Maurygold]

If you just seen it hit measure with reticle if it’s 1 moa left on the reticle adjust 1 moa, instead you see splash you measure splash in inches then covert to moa then move 1 moa. What EVERYBODY is saying yes you could measure everything inches for moa it directly correlates but there is a lot more room for error trying to measure inches at distance then there is using the ruler in the scope to measure… you should have to do ZERO converting to put your next round on target. It’s as plain and cut dry as this.

If I’m understanding this correctly you are seeing impact and assuming or measuring it 18 inches left then your adjusting for it? If so refer to above it is MUCH quicker to cut that step completely out and to just adjust off what the reticle shows miss by 3 adjust by 3

Or are you just arguing moa and mil is also linear measurement?

Nope. I call the miss by targets off and direction then supply the correction in mils/ moa.

I absolutely explain and teach new shooters how the angular change effects the linear though because that makes sense to lay people and whole inches are easier to grasp.

People are acting like even attempting to correlate angular to linear is impossible and it’s clear as shit not.

People just wanted to misinterpret and get up in arms when they saw someone prefer moa.

 

[stanley_white]

I Think I Understand. The mark of intelligence is to simplify the difficult and complicated. The mark of stupidity is to make easy things hard and then try to explain that understanding is the mark of smart.

This.

All day. Every day.

Don’t snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Don’t over complicate the simple.

-Stan