New 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge

[Capri_Man]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I had an idea after stumbling on wilson combat .458 ham'r page. If I'm understanding WC correctly they took a ar15 lower and paired it with a custom ar10 upper & BCG that had been shorted so it would mate up. Would this type of combination give a 6mm arc upper enough strength in the bolt/barrel area to reach the 6mm arc bolt action levels safely, or would the unsupported part of the case still be the weak link?

I kinda poked around to see if they sell just that upper receiver but came up empty handed.

 

[Constructor]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I had an idea after stumbling on wilson combat .458 ham'r page. If I'm understanding WC correctly they took a ar15 lower and paired it with a custom ar10 upper & BCG that had been shorted so it would mate up. Would this type of combination give a 6mm arc upper enough strength in the bolt/barrel area to reach the 6mm arc bolt action levels safely, or would the unsupported part of the case still be the weak link?

I kinda poked around to see if they sell just that upper receiver but came up empty handed.

I think the cases are still the weak link. Norma seem to last longer than the others.

 

[godofthunder]

Not to beat a dead horse here, but I had an idea after stumbling on wilson combat .458 ham'r page. If I'm understanding WC correctly they took a ar15 lower and paired it with a custom ar10 upper & BCG that had been shorted so it would mate up. Would this type of combination give a 6mm arc upper enough strength in the bolt/barrel area to reach the 6mm arc bolt action levels safely, or would the unsupported part of the case still be the weak link?

I kinda poked around to see if they sell just that upper receiver but came up empty handed.

That combo would give the 6mm ARC bolt (the weak link in this equation) the ability to be stronger, if designed properly.

EDIT: miss the part about the unsupported part of the case. Which could be the weak link. Either way if you got your hands on the wilson set you could have a stronger bolt made.

 

[SupressYourself]

To me, if your intentions are to hot-rod the 6 ARC with this 'Frankenstein' AR, why not just shoot a 6 Creed out of a regular AR10 ?

 

[Capri_Man]

To me, if your intentions are to hot-rod the 6 ARC with this 'Frankenstein' AR, why not just shoot a 6 Creed out of a regular AR10 ?

Because I didn't buy an ar10 lower when I had the chance in WA state. With the new laws we have in place, and the new political war drums of gun violence/ownership being a mental disorder I don't need some kook slapping a mentally unfit label on me when I go through three Background checks a year just to keep my job.... I don't want to derail this thread more than that so lets leave it at that.

 

[steve123]

To me, if your intentions are to hot-rod the 6 ARC with this 'Frankenstein' AR, why not just shoot a 6 Creed out of a regular AR10 ?

It's funny how people think isn't it?!

And to think I haven't had a bolt failure with two 6mm Grendel based wildcats in thousands of rounds, including some hot loads, just odd isn't it???

 

[ormandj]

Because I didn't buy an ar10 lower when I had the chance in WA state. With the new laws we have in place, and the new political war drums of gun violence/ownership being a mental disorder I don't need some kook slapping a mentally unfit label on me when I go through three Background checks a year just to keep my job.... I don't want to derail this thread more than that so lets leave it at that.

Just run gas gun pressures, the extra hundred fps or w/e you'd gain isn't worth the complexity/issues that might arise. The cartridge is good out to 1000yds from a 18" barrel, are you trying to get to 1100? That's an awful lot of work/potential for failure just to squeeze a little more performance out of this cartridge which is already a nicely balanced place to be. You'll have better barrel life this way, in addition to a non-goofy platform, which is something you should consider heavily.

 

[jbailey]

the extra hundred fps or w/e you'd gain ...

just run 22" barrel instead of 18". You will never know you have 4 more inches out there, either from either the weight or maneuverability. I assume you aren't deploying from an Osprey or an Ohio-class sub, in which case, maybe those 4 inches matter

 

[Capri_Man]

just run 22" barrel instead of 18". You will never know you have 4 more inches out there, either from either the weight or maneuverability. I assume you aren't deploying from an Osprey or an Ohio-class sub, in which case, maybe those 4 inches matter

Well Honestly I had planned on running a 24" barrel from the get go.

 

[John Burns]

What bullet was used? Any info on terminal performance, distances shot, etc?

I think it was all Hornady tipped bullets.

Results were basically exactly what you would expect, good placement worked.

Penetration was OK but border line in my opinion.

Furthest shot was just short of 400yds.

Cool pic. What's the deal with those tiny suppressors?

I designed it to be the smallest and lightest possible while offering enough reduction for hunting.

4 inches and 4 ounces in Ti on the 6MM Creedmoors.

Jeff took a good buck this year and this picture shows how small the suppressor is when on a 22 inch barrel.

 

[jbailey]

^^^^ beautiful creature
thanks for posting

 

[Henryrifle]

While on the subject of velocity, I continue to be impressed with LEVERevolution. So much so that I am going to focus on that powder only in my 6mm ARC gasser.

I spent some time at the range yesterday doing a little testing trying to find the best Lever/108 ELD-M load. I backed off the 29.6 grain loads a little to see if the groups improved. 29.4 seems like a more consistent load. Velocity is a still respectable 2730 FPS out of a 21.75" barrel. I tried 29 and 29.2 grains as well but those groups were in the .98 to 1.3 MOA range. Speed was still 2700 for 29 grains and 2708 for 29.2. Temperature was 56 degrees.

While this sounds like an excuse, I know I can shoot better groups. I had been out in the cold shooting for a few hours by the time I got to this rifle and decided to shoot off a Harris bipod and small squeeze bag from prone. I wasn't shivering but could have been a lot more stable.

Merry Christmas to all!
Henryrifle

 

[Dino11]

While on the subject of velocity, I continue to be impressed with LEVERevolution. So much so that I am going to focus on that powder only in my 6mm ARC gasser.

I spent some time at the range yesterday doing a little testing trying to find the best Lever/108 ELD-M load. I backed off the 29.6 grain loads a little to see if the groups improved. 29.4 seems like a more consistent load. Velocity is a still respectable 2730 FPS out of a 21.75" barrel. I tried 29 and 29.2 grains as well but those groups were in the .98 to 1.3 MOA range. Speed was still 2700 for 29 grains and 2708 for 29.2. Temperature was 56 degrees.

While this sounds like an excuse, I know I can shoot better groups. I had been out in the cold shooting for a few hours by the time I got to this rifle and decided to shoot off a Harris bipod and small squeeze bag from prone. I wasn't shivering but could have been a lot more stable.


Merry Christmas to all!
Henryrifle

29.4 grains Lever under a Nosler 105 RDF is my pet load. I have done some extensive work on this load. I even went as far as testing OAL to get it optimized for each of my rifles. Lever is defiantly my go to powder.

I have been playing around with BL-C2 as of late, and I now see it is a listed powder in the new Hodgden manual, I was working with it before it was a published powder and some folks said that it would never work. I have actually had some pretty good results with it. And I have 8# of the stuff.

It does give a little more felt recoil so that tells me it is a little on the fast side of the burn rate. But on the chart it falls between Lever and CFE223. And the velocity is pretty good for the grains you use.

 

[jbailey]

29.4 grains Lever under a Nosler 105 RDF is my pet load. I have done some extensive work on this load.

@Dino11
thanks for this update. I have 8lbs of Lever inbound and looking forward to testing it. Regarding the analysis of it, do you have any data on its MV change in different temperatures?
thanks

 

[NHR]

I think it was all Hornady tipped bullets.

Results were basically exactly what you would expect, good placement worked.

Penetration was OK but border line in my opinion.

Furthest shot was just short of 400yds.



I designed it to be the smallest and lightest possible while offering enough reduction for hunting.

4 inches and 4 ounces in Ti on the 6MM Creedmoors.

Jeff took a good buck this year and this picture shows how small the suppressor is when on a 22 inch barrel.

Is this a Form 1 can? Any details you can share?

 

[ormandj]

just run 22" barrel instead of 18". You will never know you have 4 more inches out there, either from either the weight or maneuverability. I assume you aren't deploying from an Osprey or an Ohio-class sub, in which case, maybe those 4 inches matter

Here's where you and I disagree. I have a lot of 24" barreled rifles, and when you tack on a suppressor, they can be annoyingly long. The weight of the suppressor really starts to wear on you when shooting offhand, even with a sling. Back down at 18" is about the right 'balance' for me, while not destroying performance. If you're not shooting suppressed, 22-24" is a great place to be.

That said, I've been shooting my 10.5" 6ARC about 95% of the time (suppressed) vs. my 18", which I generally only break out when I know I'll be shooting at 1000yds a lot. The 10.5" makes it out to 1000yds pretty well as long as there isn't a lot of wind; the 108 ELD-Ms seem to handle the transsonic range relatively well. The 10.5" is just a _lot_ more handy, and is great out in the field, especially with a lot of off-hand shooting. When I'm out to shoot primarily at 800yds+, I switch to my 18".

 

[Flyinghunter]

Here's where you and I disagree. I have a lot of 24" barreled rifles, and when you tack on a suppressor, they can be annoyingly long. The weight of the suppressor really starts to wear on you when shooting offhand, even with a sling. Back down at 18" is about the right 'balance' for me, while not destroying performance. If you're not shooting suppressed, 22-24" is a great place to be.

That said, I've been shooting my 10.5" 6ARC about 95% of the time (suppressed) vs. my 18", which I generally only break out when I know I'll be shooting at 1000yds a lot. The 10.5" makes it out to 1000yds pretty well as long as there isn't a lot of wind; the 108 ELD-Ms seem to handle the transsonic range relatively well. The 10.5" is just a _lot_ more handy, and is great out in the field, especially with a lot of off-hand shooting. When I'm out to shoot primarily at 800yds+, I switch to my 18".

Good points. This is the key focus for my interest in the 6mmARC. I gain a decent amount of ft. lbs. of energy vs 5.56 in a SBR + Suppressed configuration. I regularly deer hunt with my 5.56 but am very selective with the shots I take to ensure an ethical kill. The approx. 400-500 extra ft. lbs. of the 6mmARC vs 5.56 will open a little more distance and shot angle options for my needs. YMMV. Now, If I can just find a trusted builder that is making a complete upper 10.5-12.5".

 

[SBRSarge]

Here's where you and I disagree. I have a lot of 24" barreled rifles, and when you tack on a suppressor, they can be annoyingly long. The weight of the suppressor really starts to wear on you when shooting offhand, even with a sling. Back down at 18" is about the right 'balance' for me, while not destroying performance. If you're not shooting suppressed, 22-24" is a great place to be.

That said, I've been shooting my 10.5" 6ARC about 95% of the time (suppressed) vs. my 18", which I generally only break out when I know I'll be shooting at 1000yds a lot. The 10.5" makes it out to 1000yds pretty well as long as there isn't a lot of wind; the 108 ELD-Ms seem to handle the transsonic range relatively well. The 10.5" is just a _lot_ more handy, and is great out in the field, especially with a lot of off-hand shooting. When I'm out to shoot primarily at 800yds+, I switch to my 18".

Hey ormandj,

What group size are you seeing with the 10.5, and what barrel is it? I think I will need to build one to go with my 18“ Odin build.

Thanks!

 

[ormandj]

Hey ormandj,

What group size are you seeing with the 10.5, and what barrel is it? I think I will need to build one to go with my 18“ Odin build.

Thanks!

Sub-half-moa, but it's a Craddock Bartlein with a relatively stout profile (no pencil barrels for me), and shimmed/upper receiver lathe-trued, TT Diamond, etc.

 

[DacianMH]

LOL, what kind of wimpy loads are you using in that thing? Even the 300 Blackout will do ~2100 fps with a 125gr in that barrel length. My Grendel accuracy load for the 123 ELD is doing 2360 in my 12.5", and that's with good brass life; it can be pushed hotter.

Also, the difference between these short barrels and longer 18-20" barrels is not all that much with the 6.5 Grendel; only about 200-250 fps depending on the barrel.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but it doesn't sound like your experience is a good representation of the Grendel in a short barrel. It absolutely outperforms the Blackout at any distance, but especially past 100 yards or so; that's an apples to oranges comparison. Don't know if you've tried to hit much at 600-700 yards with a short 300 Blackout, but it's not very impressive; in contrast the short Grendel is easy, and in my experience is easier to hit with in the wind than a 16" 5.56 with 75/77gr. At distance, the 6mm versions of the Grendel are another step up for a small frame long range cartridge.

I was thinking the same thing. I run a 13” suppressed (custom made) 6.5G Bartlein AR with 129gr ABLR’s at 2350 and it’s worked on deer out to 300+ yards very well. What a lot of people are forgetting is that the 6ARC doesn’t see those numbers out of a sub 20” and just BC alone doesn’t account for the bullets ability to dispatch game. Frontal diameter and sectional density play a major part.

 

[LRRPF52]

29.4 grains Lever under a Nosler 105 RDF is my pet load. I have done some extensive work on this load. I even went as far as testing OAL to get it optimized for each of my rifles. Lever is defiantly my go to powder.

I have been playing around with BL-C2 as of late, and I now see it is a listed powder in the new Hodgden manual, I was working with it before it was a published powder and some folks said that it would never work. I have actually had some pretty good results with it. And I have 8# of the stuff.

It does give a little more felt recoil so that tells me it is a little on the fast side of the burn rate. But on the chart it falls between Lever and CFE223. And the velocity is pretty good for the grains you use.

Felt recoil is higher with the slower-burning powders because they hit the gas port with more pressure than faster-burning powders, which feel like a punt.

I’ve noticed this in 6.5 Grendel and .260 Rem especially in the gas guns.

With faster powders, by the time the pressure curve hits the port, it doesn’t have as much energy as the slower-burning powders.

I noticed this with 8208XBR vs CFE223 in Grendel.

Same with H4350 vs H4831 in .260 Rem.

The slower burning powders seem to impart more energy into the BCG, which gives a more pronounced buffer bumper bounce than fast powders do. I had one powder I was trying under 140gr in .260 Rem that really slammed the buffer into the back of the RET.

Buffer bumper impact into the back of the RET helps provide as much inertia for reliable cartridge strip and feed on the return stroke. I’ve heard some people claim that the buffer bumper shouldn’t be touching the rear of the RET, but it’s literally part of the design intent.

 

[Yondering]

I was thinking the same thing. I run a 13” suppressed (custom made) 6.5G Bartlein AR with 129gr ABLR’s at 2350 and it’s worked on deer out to 300+ yards very well. What a lot of people are forgetting is that the 6ARC doesn’t see those numbers out of a sub 20” and just BC alone doesn’t account for the bullets ability to dispatch game. Frontal diameter and sectional density play a major part.

Heck yeah on that 129 ABLR load. My 12.5" shoots them about 100 fps slower than that on the top end, but regardless, it's a great bullet for a short Grendel. You must be using Lever? That's the only powder I found that would get anywhere near that speed without going way over pressure.

A point on the 6mm version though (I set up a nearly identical 12.5" 243 LBC as a twin to my Grendel, and see no reason the 6 ARC can't do the same thing) - with heavy bullets it does well in the short barrels too. Mine pushes the 105gr BTHP a hair over 2500 fps (2,495 at the chrono at 21 ft) using the same Lapua brass, primers, and Lever powder as my Grendel. That's not what I'd consider a hunting load (wish there was an ABLR bullet in 6mm!) but it's actually pretty good for reaching out there a bit. As a point of fact it's still better than the best 16" 5.56 loads at any distance, so there's that.

 

[Yondering]

Felt recoil is higher with the slower-burning powders because they hit the gas port with more pressure than faster-burning powders, which feel like a punt.

I’ve noticed this in 6.5 Grendel and .260 Rem especially in the gas guns.

With faster powders, by the time the pressure curve hits the port, it doesn’t have as much energy as the slower-burning powders.

I noticed this with 8208XBR vs CFE223 in Grendel.

Same with H4350 vs H4831 in .260 Rem.

The slower burning powders seem to impart more energy into the BCG, which gives a more pronounced buffer bumper bounce than fast powders do. I had one powder I was trying under 140gr in .260 Rem that really slammed the buffer into the back of the RET.

Buffer bumper impact into the back of the RET helps provide as much inertia for reliable cartridge strip and feed on the return stroke. I’ve heard some people claim that the buffer bumper shouldn’t be touching the rear of the RET, but it’s literally part of the design intent.

This.

Also guys - you can't really judge power of different AR loads based on felt recoil. I see that sort of thing posted here once in a while, but as pointed out above, the felt recoil has just as much or more to do with the powder burn rate and resulting bcg speed as it does power of the load. When the rifle cycles harder, it feels like more recoil but that's just the carrier receiving more gas and unlocking faster.

 

[newageroman]

Anyone care to share the thickness of the brass in the neck area on fired cases? Thx in advance.

 

[Silverjay]

Mine are running 0.013-0.014”, all Hornady.

 

[newageroman]

Thanks for the info. I'm getting 0.014-0.016”, New Starline Grendle converted. Hornady Grendle converted shows similar. I'm curious if I can get higher velocities (in addition to consistency) if I start neck turning them. My thought is the conversion process creates thicker brass/more neck tension = higher pressure even with loading under max powder levels using LeverLoution. Right now I'm getting ~2600 with 28.7 LeverLoution and 105 Bergers loaded to mag length and 20" barrel using std CCI Primers. I'm getting flattened primers, but no swipes on the brass. I have some Win primers I could try (thinking they may be harder). Maybe I'm just talking myslef into another rabbit hole with the neck turning thing, but if the primers.

I have 500 converted cases ready to load and more 105 Bergers on the way. I think I'll just fire form and anneal them and revisit this.

 

[Yondering]

#1 tip - stop using primers to judge pressure. It's one of the least reliable "pressure signs", and is hugely affected by headspace. Did you measure headspace difference between a fired case and that new Starline brass? Unless yours is significantly longer than my recent batch of Starline, or your chamber is significantly shorter than min spec, you've probably got more headspace than you realize with that brass. Like most manufacturers, they've bumped the shoulder back more than necessary to ensure it chambers in every rifle out there.

Nothing wrong with neck turning if you need or want to, but it doesn't make primers stop flattening.

BTW - *Grendel.

Edit - disregard the Starline comment about headspace, I was thinking Grendel instead of ARC for a minute.

 

[newageroman]

I'm getting a few flattened primers and one pierced primer on the upper end. I didn't check headspace and compare like you said, but I will do that next. thx. I'm bumping the shoulders back 4 thousanths on the conversion process FL sizing die.

 

[RMB]

Anyone work up a load with some lighter projectiles? Thinking of running some Speer 70gr TNT for coyotes.

I have had good luck with the 87 gr Vmax and 95 SMK, 8208 powder and Fed Primers....in a 20" T-Box barrel with 1:8 twist. (This is with a 6MM Grendel!) I tried the lighter Vmax bullets and it was a waste of time....

 

[Yondering]

I'm getting a few flattened primers and one pierced primer on the upper end. I didn't check headspace and compare like you said, but I will do that next. thx. I'm bumping the shoulders back 4 thousanths on the conversion process FL sizing die.

Hold up. Bumping shoulders back .004” from what? Compared to other fired brass from your rifle? If so, that’s correct and good, and that is your headspace for those cases.

What primers are you using? If it’s the standard CCI 400, you really want to switch to the 450 if you have them, or another magnum primer with the thicker cup.

BTW sorry for the confusion about Starline brass in my post last night, I was thinking Grendel rather than ARC. You’re pushing shoulders back from Grendel brass so that part doesn’t matter, and you should be able to control headspace perfectly from the start.

 

[Yondering]

About neck thickness, do this test - take a piece of your fired brass, unsized just as it came out of the chamber, and slip a 6mm bullet in the neck. If it slips in easily, you’ve got enough clearance in the chamber for the neck thickness of that brass.

If it doesn’t (assuming the neck isn’t dented), your chamber doesn’t have enough clearance and that does raise pressure. If that’s the case, you’ll need to turn case necks or have the chamber opened up.

 

[newageroman]

Comparator just now:
3.216" - fired case
3.214" and a few 3.2135" - New converted read to load
I never had a use for 450 primers until now, but apparently it is a thing. I have plenty of LG match magnum primers that NOBODY wanted 6 months ago, so I bought them all, but no small mag or 450 primers.

I had no feeding issues with this bump/forming setting on my die, so I'm just going to run them. with my current vel and bullet I should be able to stay super until at least 1k, which is my goal for this build. Learning lots, trying to soak it up - thanks for the tips/advice!

I just tried putting a bullet in the fired case and it will go with just a tad bit of hand pressure, but it is not as free as a 30-06 case with same test - those just slide in and out very easily.

I just ordered AMP annealing pilots and some Sinclair mandrel dies for 6.5 CM and 6ARC, but it may be a while before they get here. Will be crossing toes next time I get to go to the long range range...

 

[DacianMH]

Heck yeah on that 129 ABLR load. My 12.5" shoots them about 100 fps slower than that on the top end, but regardless, it's a great bullet for a short Grendel. You must be using Lever? That's the only powder I found that would get anywhere near that speed without going way over pressure.

A point on the 6mm version though (I set up a nearly identical 12.5" 243 LBC as a twin to my Grendel, and see no reason the 6 ARC can't do the same thing) - with heavy bullets it does well in the short barrels too. Mine pushes the 105gr BTHP a hair over 2500 fps (2,495 at the chrono at 21 ft) using the same Lapua brass, primers, and Lever powder as my Grendel. That's not what I'd consider a hunting load (wish there was an ABLR bullet in 6mm!) but it's actually pretty good for reaching out there a bit. As a point of fact it's still better than the best 16" 5.56 loads at any distance, so there's that.

There are some great options for the 6mm. Patriot Valley Arms makes a solid copper Cayuga round that has a very very high BC. In the 6ARC I’d probably consider that and some of the 95gr Berger Classic Hunters as I’ve had great luck with them. With the ABLR I’m using 30.8gr of CFE223. I can’t find LeveRevolution anywhere.

 

[Yondering]

There are some great options for the 6mm. Patriot Valley Arms makes a solid copper Cayuga round that has a very very high BC. In the 6ARC I’d probably consider that and some of the 95gr Berger Classic Hunters as I’ve had great luck with them. With the ABLR I’m using 30.8gr of CFE223. I can’t find LeveRevolution anywhere.

The ABLR benefit isn't about high b.c., it's about the very low expansion threshold and a bullet construction designed specifically for low velocity applications. That's why the 129 ABLR is such a great match for the short barrel Grendel. I wish the same thing existed in ~105gr weight for my 12.5" 6mm (muzzle velocity ~2500 fps) but as far as I know, there is nothing like it in 6mm. Plenty of high b.c. options exist, but it changes some things when they don't function at extended ranges. Getting a bullet to the target is only part of the equation.

 

[DacianMH]

Heck yeah on that 129 ABLR load. My 12.5" shoots them about 100 fps slower than that on the top end, but regardless, it's a great bullet for a short Grendel. You must be using Lever? That's the only powder I found that would get anywhere near that speed without going way over pressure.

A point on the 6mm version though (I set up a nearly identical 12.5" 243 LBC as a twin to my Grendel, and see no reason the 6 ARC can't do the same thing) - with heavy bullets it does well in the short barrels too. Mine pushes the 105gr BTHP a hair over 2500 fps (2,495 at the chrono at 21 ft) using the same Lapua brass, primers, and Lever powder as my Grendel. That's not what I'd consider a hunting load (wish there was an ABLR bullet in 6mm!) but it's actually pretty good for reaching out there a bit. As a point of fact it's still better than the best 16" 5.56 loads at any distance, so there's that.

I think

The ABLR benefit isn't about high b.c., it's about the very low expansion threshold and a bullet construction designed specifically for low velocity applications. That's why the 129 ABLR is such a great match for the short barrel Grendel. I wish the same thing existed in ~105gr weight for my 12.5" 6mm (muzzle velocity ~2500 fps) but as far as I know, there is nothing like it in 6mm. Plenty of high b.c. options exist, but it changes some things when they don't function at extended ranges. Getting a bullet to the target is only part of the equation.

Yes absolutely... forgot to mention that maybe but it’s been a great bullet. Wish they made a 110gr secant ojive ABLR that would be excellent in the Grendel!

 

[LRJammer]

I am now collecting parts and components for a 6 ARC. I am a big fan of the Redding Type-S dies but I dont see any listing for it in their catalog. This is my first foray into the Grendel/ARC world. Given that the ARC is just a necked down and shouldered back .030" Grendel, a full length Type-S Grendel die with smaller bushings to neck it down should be all I need to do that should it not?

For those that are forming their own brass, are you finding that neck turning is required for safe operation? If so, how much has to be removed?

 

[TonyTheTiger]

@LRJammer you might have to mill off a little of the bottom of the die to get that extra .03". Never needed to turn necks to make 6 Grendel, imagine ARC would be similar.

 

[Henryrifle]

@LRJammer: I used the 6.5 Grendel Type S die with great results when I first put my rifle and reloading components together. Just as @TonyTheTiger advised, I did take .03" off the bottom of my die in the lathe.

On a separate note, I was at the 1300 yard range yesterday doing some testing with a rifle chambered in 6.5X47 and I saved 11 rounds of 6mm ARC and brought the rifle with me. The data on that round is 29 grins of LEVERevolution under the 108 ELD with a MV of 2730 FPS out of my 21.75" Wilson barrel. This combination shoots a pretty consistent .6 MOA group at 100 yards. At 1300 yards, the velocity was down to 1064 FPS according to the AB Mobile ballistic app in yesterday's conditions. The target is a 20" steel plate so, call it 1.5 MOA steel. I know that any hits at that range with this rifle has more to do with luck than anything else--but I had to try it. The wind was a very constant 6 MPH from 9 O'clock. The big problem shooting on this range is that the target area is on a pipeline and usually has tall grass. That was the case yesterday but, at least the grass was brown. Was very lucky to spot the first two splashes with a 22 power scope. My first shot had very good elevation but was about 3 MOA off to the left. I overcompensated on the second shot and saw the splash just off the right edge of the plate. The next shot was a hit! I was tempted to stop there as one out of 3 at that range is almost brag-worthy but, I had 8 rounds left. I got two more hits on the plate and spotted several more that were close. I am very impressed that the rifle got 3/11 or 27% hits at that range on a 1.5 MOA steel plate. What a cool little cartridge!

I'll be taking it deer hunting again next weekend. Those doe better be on their game.

Henryrifle

 

[newageroman]

For those that are forming their own brass, are you finding that neck turning is required for safe operation? If so, how much has to be removed?

See my post ^^^ #1388 and 1389.

As far as dies, I totally would have gone bushing but they weren't available at the time. I will say this though, when I was first trimming brass with the Lee quicktrim, I used a Grendle trim die and just filed it down flat about ~0.004" and it worked great. Since then I move to WFT trimmer.

This is also my first time in the Grendle/ARC and AR platform besides a couple hundred rounds in 223. The 223 will be collecting dust most likely... I have brass that is formed and ready to load if you need any.

 

[Southern Custom]

First ladder with LeverEvolution under 108 ELDMs in once fired Hornady brass. 18” Odin barrel. 3 shots each.
Im hoping the 3rd charge of 27.8 wasn’t a fluke with 1 hole. Only 2425fps but I only shoot to 600 here in south LA so I don’t need the speed.SD was only 13 so not great but worth a revisit. #2- 27.6 was .5moa. and same SD. #4-28gr opened to 1” and SD grew with it.
number 11 was not a great group at 7/8”. With 29.4gr. but the ES/SD was 0. 3 shots all 2575. So I’ll revisit that and play with seating depth to see if it will group.
Rifle ran flawlessly with the 108s. I’ll load up 5 of each and run the contenders again in a few days.
Oh and those are 1.5” pasters.
Failure to strip/lock back with 87Vmax at 2600. Only ran 1 group before I had to pick up.
When I got home a reduced power spring was waiting so I’ll throw that in and try the rest of the 87s next trip.

 

[LRRPF52]

Only 1425fps but I only shoot to 600 here in south LA so I don’t need the speed.

Is that a typo?

 

[Yondering]

I assumed he meant 2425 fps, but that’s still really slow for this cartridge and that powder. That’s 6.5 Grendel speed, and in 6mm with Lever I’m seeing higher velocity even with my 12.5” barrel.

I’m starting to notice a few people using Lever for mild loads, but it doesn’t make any sense. People- the advantage of Lever is high velocity with good accuracy, and you’re trading that for temp sensitivity. If you don’t care about high velocity, there are better powders to choose for mild loads.

 

[Yondering]

Also - if you’re shooting a ladder test and looking foremost at accuracy instead of vertical position, you’re doing it wrong. The point of a ladder is to find a wide node that puts shots in the same vertical position across a range of powder charges or seating depths. Then tune for accuracy once you find that.

 

[Southern Custom]

Is that a typo?

Yes. 2425

 

[Southern Custom]

Also - if you’re shooting a ladder test and looking foremost at accuracy instead of vertical position, you’re doing it wrong. The point of a ladder is to find a wide node that puts shots in the same vertical position across a range of powder charges or seating depths. Then tune for accuracy once you find that.

I’m obviously looking for that wide node and the 27.4 seems to be right there albeit slow. The loads .2g above and below landed in the exact same spot. If it’s printing small groups from the outset and also in a node then so much the better. I’ll redo the faster charge of 29.4 loaded up and down .1g and see what it looks like since the first 3 with that had identical speeds of 2575.
You mentioned finding a node that gets good vertical dispersion across a wider range of powder variation and seating depth. I’m going under the assumption that short of a barrel tuner, seating depth is the only way to tune that load once found. So if that 29.4 load turns out to be a good node I’ll run a seating depth test with it. The first load I ran was 10thou off the lands and group wasn’t great. The Factory 108s are loaded 20thou off and seem to do well printing .5-.6 with 5 shot groups and giving me the same speed of 2575.
And while we are in the subject, you mentioned picking other powders than Lever for slower loads. I’m starting from zero with 6ARC and my precision reloading is limited to 6Creed and .223. In other words I’m a babe in the woods when it comes to precision rifle loading and while I’ve done well with it so far, I’ve been relying on those who came before me for my initial data. My knowledge of applicable powders/burn rates etc, for a given caliber, is limited. I’m all ears for another suggestion. Unfortunately the only listed powder I have in the shop is Tac. I have a ton of H335 but that doesn’t cut it for 108s. I have a rudimentary foundation and understanding of the subject but my practical experience is limited. Until last year I’d only loaded for pistol.

 

[Henryrifle]

@Southern Custom: I looked at your website. Your work is beyond amazing. I have no doubt you'll be teaching us all about hand loading in no time at all!

Happy New Year all,
Henryrifle

 

[Southern Custom]

@Southern Custom: I looked at your website. Your work is beyond amazing. I have no doubt you'll be teaching us all about hand loading in no time at all!

Happy New Year all,
Henryrifle

I’m a one round wonder. I can load a straight shooting 6Creed! If my pop taught me anything, a job worth doing is one worth doing right.

 

[Yondering]

I’m obviously looking for that wide node and the 27.4 seems to be right there albeit slow. The loads .2g above and below landed in the exact same spot. If it’s printing small groups from the outset and also in a node then so much the better. I’ll redo the faster charge of 29.4 loaded up and down .1g and see what it looks like since the first 3 with that had identical speeds of 2575.
You mentioned finding a node that gets good vertical dispersion across a wider range of powder variation and seating depth. I’m going under the assumption that short of a barrel tuner, seating depth is the only way to tune that load once found. So if that 29.4 load turns out to be a good node I’ll run a seating depth test with it. The first load I ran was 10thou off the lands and group wasn’t great. The Factory 108s are loaded 20thou off and seem to do well printing .5-.6 with 5 shot groups and giving me the same speed of 2575.
And while we are in the subject, you mentioned picking other powders than Lever for slower loads. I’m starting from zero with 6ARC and my precision reloading is limited to 6Creed and .223. In other words I’m a babe in the woods when it comes to precision rifle loading and while I’ve done well with it so far, I’ve been relying on those who came before me for my initial data. My knowledge of applicable powders/burn rates etc, for a given caliber, is limited. I’m all ears for another suggestion. Unfortunately the only listed powder I have in the shop is Tac. I have a ton of H335 but that doesn’t cut it for 108s. I have a rudimentary foundation and understanding of the subject but my practical experience is limited. Until last year I’d only loaded for pistol.

Lever performs best at max (best consistency, accuracy, and velocity of course), and that's about the only place it makes sense to use it since you're giving up a fair amount of temp stability compared to some other powders. Here's a shortcut for ya - figure out your max load of Lever, load to that or a few tenths below, and run your seating depth test. I'd run the test over a full .100" spread if you can, sometimes the shorter seating depths are surprising in an AR.

H4895 and Varget give you temp stability if you're happy with lower velocity in your 6mm ARC.

You can fine tune for accuracy by adjusting seating depth or powder charges in smaller increments. I prefer to find a load that shoots accurately across a wide range of powder charges near max, so that leaves finding the optimum seating depth. With Lever it's usually not much of a challenge to zero in on a good load.

Also- I thought you were shooting multiple shots of each charge weight. If it was only one of each, don't put much stock in that. It's worse than just testing with 3 shot groups. I've seen several times where that method puts a few rounds close together like your 27.4gr load above, but going back with multiple rounds of each shows no such node, it was just random dispersion. You really need the average location of multiple samples for that method to be useful, not just a single sample of each.

 

[Alanh]

Who makes the best 6creed at barrels? I have been thinking about a build. This posting from OP didn’t help any!

 

[ormandj]

Who makes the best 6creed at barrels? I have been thinking about a build. This posting from OP didn’t help any!

Wrong thread. This thread is for 6mm ARC. If you're asking for 6ARC barrels, Bartlein for the barrel, Craddock for the work is my pick for "best" based on my experience in other calibers (and two barrels in 6ARC). Just be prepared to pay for it.