I understand that. The last few of the posts were from guys that obviously had real world experience with running that caliber. I was just looking for an opinion from one of them. No harm in asking... normally.
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New 6mm Advanced Rifle Cartridge
- Thread starter Gtscotty
- Start date
Just start a new thread, those people will see that one too, and it won't split the on-topic discussion here - and you'll have a lot more eyes on the thread with interest and knowledge - that's how forums work. That said, Craddock, CLE, WOA, etc all make great barrels, regardless of cartridge.
I was thinking the same... it’s very optimistic. I’m running a 6GT with a 108gr ELDM from a 22” and only getting roughly 2800 fps from 34gr of Varget. The 6ARC load data available is for a bolt gun with a 24” barrel and with a 108gr ELDM that’s maxed out at 28.1gr at 62k psi. 52k psi is the max on the AR. Here’s their disclaimer which is printed on the bottom of their load data; NOTE: This 6mm ARC reloading data is intended for use in bolt action rifles safe for pressures up to 62,000 psi. It is NOT for use in AR-15 style (gas gun) rifles. Also the biggest problem, the mags...absolutely unreliable when you get over a 15 rd capacity. In the gas gun, the only thing I’ve found that worked reliably that wasn’t a 5.56mm was my 18” 224 Valkyrie running Barrett 30rd mags and PRI 28rd 6.8 mags running a 75gr TMJ’s at .50 cents a pop, 75gr ELDM’s, and the 80.5gr Bergers setup as a DMR worked well to 600 yards for me.
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Your numbers and comments don't add up. You claim that 105's at 2900 in a 28" is optimistic, but then post a copy of Hornady's data showing 2850 in a shorter barrel and a heavier bullet.
Those numbers are only optimistic if you guys don't believe that some powders allow more velocity than others. If Varget is your baseline, don't be surprised if other people are getting much higher velocity with other powders. Just look at the data - Varget is a full 200 fps slower than Lever in Hornady's numbers.
As a point of fact, I've been shooting 105's at 2840 fps from my 24" 243 LBC for a few years before any published data was available. That's in an AR, with good brass and bolt life; I'm working on the 9th load of this batch of Lapua now for that same load. Granted this has slightly higher case capacity, and I'm at a few tenths lower than Hornady's listed bolt gun max to keep pressure down, but the velocity is there. I've got no problem imagining another 4" of barrel would gain another 60 fps easy.
There was a subsequent load data sheet that Hornady published specific to the gas gun, attached. I am seeing 2730 FPS out of my 21.75" barrel using 29.4 grains of LEVERevolution behind the 108 ELD-M. This is not destroying brass and 3/10ths of a grain under the max book load. I have no need to push it, but 2800 might be possible with a slightly longer barrel and a few more tenths...
Henryrifle
Henryrifle
I have some ammo I picked up locally for sale thinking someone could use it. Not making much off it.
Reloading Equipment - SPF: 8 boxes Hornady Match 6mm ARC and Custom Grade dies
SPF Prices drop 3/26/21 $190 per 80 rds shipped OR $350 for 160 rds shipped If you by all 160 rds I will include an option to buy Hornady 6 ARC Custom Grade dies for $50 extra with receipt so you can get the mail in rebate for 100 free bullets from Hornady. No trades. Thanks
www.snipershide.com
I have some ammo I picked up locally for sale thinking someone could use it. Not making much off it.
Reloading Equipment - SPF: 8 boxes Hornady Match 6mm ARC and Custom Grade dies
SPF Prices drop 3/26/21 $190 per 80 rds shipped OR $350 for 160 rds shipped If you by all 160 rds I will include an option to buy Hornady 6 ARC Custom Grade dies for $50 extra with receipt so you can get the mail in rebate for 100 free bullets from Hornady. No trades. Thanks
LOL.
Why when you can do a 6 Creedmoor if you want factory support and 6 Creedmoor looks to be cheaper
It is optimistic for a case that’s .030” shorter than the Grendel case and in a 24” gas gun. You’re comparing Lapua brass which doesn’t exist for 6mm ARC so not really an apples to apples comparison...6mm ARC with Hornady brass vs 243 LBC with Lapua brass? I never said anything about 28” barrels so I don’t know where you’re getting that from. In my post I stated I’m getting 108 ELDM’s moving at roughly 2850 fps from my 22” barreled 6mm GT Bighorn Origin using 34gr of Varget with no pressure signs and you’re going to tell me it’s not optimistic Read the disclaimer on the bottom of Hornady’s load data, it specifically states that load data is for bolt guns only at 62k psi. Did you ever put a strain gauge on your barrel...just curious. In my Varget to Varget comparison I kept the powders the same to show the difference between the 6mm ARC and 6GT capacity as a reference.
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I was able to score hits at 600 and 750 yesterday with the Berger 105s/LL running ~2600. I dialed in to zero at 200yds and then went to 300/500 pretty easily. Then over run a couple groups at 600 and 750. Instead of dialing more elevation/wind, I just zoomed out to 4x and used the BDC reticles. I was getting hits near the top of silhouette target at 600 and beltline area of the 750.
I tried a shot at 1k, and missed, so went back to shooting 600/750, as I was running out of bullets. Spotting/daylight became an issue. Making more ammo and hoping for next time.
I tried a shot at 1k, and missed, so went back to shooting 600/750, as I was running out of bullets. Spotting/daylight became an issue. Making more ammo and hoping for next time.
I have some ammo I picked up locally for sale thinking someone could use it. Not making much off it.
Reloading Equipment - SPF: 8 boxes Hornady Match 6mm ARC and Custom Grade dies
SPF Prices drop 3/26/21 $190 per 80 rds shipped OR $350 for 160 rds shipped If you by all 160 rds I will include an option to buy Hornady 6 ARC Custom Grade dies for $50 extra with receipt so you can get the mail in rebate for 100 free bullets from Hornady. No trades. Thanks
You're kidding, right? I paid $21.99 in June and $23.99 in December, per a box of 20, for that ammunition, sans shipping. I don't normally knock sales posts, and won't post in your for sale thread, but "Not making much off it." has to be a joke...
This is from an 18" barreled AR15, factory 108 ELD-M, measured by a LabRadar. It was the first few shots on a brand new barrel, so there's a good amount of variance, but you can see the MVs. Here's a direct CSV export of the data (calculations from the LR itself):
I'll grab velocity data on reloads later, but the load data has been fairly accurate for me. I am keeping things at gas-gun pressures, however. I'm sure performance would be even better at 62kpsi. Again, this is an 18" barrel, in an AR15.
Also, I have 26rd magazines which run great, same with the 20rd magazines (Duramag). This has been beaten to death already, and many people have reported no issues here, aside from the occasional comment on the banana-shape of the 26 round magazines. Stick to the 20s if it bugs you.
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Out of a 20” barrel on an AR platform I am seeing 2,676 FPS ( 20 shot string with SD’s of 12 on a Magnetospeed sporter) with 108’s. Hornady gas gun data lists 29.5 grains of LVR as max with a 105 BTHP. I am running the 108’s over 29.0 grains of LVR.
Look at the post you quoted again (and I replied to your post with that quote, but it didn't carry FatBoy's quote over.) He specifically said 28" barrel, and you agreed with him. It sounds like maybe you don't remember what you quoted or agreed to and are arguing some other point.
Anybody with half a clue can form Lapua Grendel brass into 6mm ARC brass. If you'd read some of my other posts here on that exact topic, you'd know that you're only bumping the shoulder back .010"-.020" max due to how Lapua sets the shoulder clearance in their factory Grendel brass. It's an easy one step pass through a FL die and done.
Again, don't care about your Varget speeds. If you're using that as the basis to claim higher velocity with other powder is optimistic, you're ignoring basic reloading principles. Varget is slow in general, but especially in smaller cartridges like this if you keep the pressure realistic. Most people who shoot much of it should realize that. It's way behind what can be done with Lever or CFE223 powders.
Ok so to clarify...are you saying you can get 2800 fps from a 28” gas gun with 6mm ARC with a 108gr ELDM? I’m curious how many manufacturers are actually going to produce a 28” AR15 barrel.
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Well, yeah. I already said I get 2840 from my 24” 243 LBC. That .030” of extra shoulder doesn’t amount to anything significant.
Maybe you meant to say 2900 since that’s what you were questioning - it sounds very reasonable to me for a 28”.
Holy hell. I just grabbed 3 boxes off the shelf locally from the stock of around 30 boxes the shop had and at $30 I thought I was getting bent over. $55? Someone might be desperate
In my 28" bolt gun:
Factory 108's (50-52ksi): 2830fps
LeverEvolution + 110 A-tip hand loads: 2890-2940fps (within listed bolt gun book data- 2 different loads, both worked fine)
Varget + 110 A-tip hand loads (28gr): 2760fps
A long barreled (26") AR-15 could likely hit the 2800fps mark safely. I don't see 2900fps in the cards for an AR (under 52ksi), but in a bolt gun it's doable. I've done it. Can you run bolt gun loads in an AR for a while without breaking lugs? Probably. When will it break? Roll the dice and find out... Fatigue failure is a real thing.
If you run certain burn rates of ball powder in BR, BRA, etc.. you will get similar velocity boosts. Nobody does it because of temp [in]stability. If you track temps, however, you can take advantage of an extra 100-200fps over the temp stable extruded powders. No voodoo or witchcraft required. Varget is not a speedy powder for this cartridge but it does consistently shoot very well for precision.
Factory 108's (50-52ksi): 2830fps
LeverEvolution + 110 A-tip hand loads: 2890-2940fps (within listed bolt gun book data- 2 different loads, both worked fine)
Varget + 110 A-tip hand loads (28gr): 2760fps
A long barreled (26") AR-15 could likely hit the 2800fps mark safely. I don't see 2900fps in the cards for an AR (under 52ksi), but in a bolt gun it's doable. I've done it. Can you run bolt gun loads in an AR for a while without breaking lugs? Probably. When will it break? Roll the dice and find out... Fatigue failure is a real thing.
If you run certain burn rates of ball powder in BR, BRA, etc.. you will get similar velocity boosts. Nobody does it because of temp [in]stability. If you track temps, however, you can take advantage of an extra 100-200fps over the temp stable extruded powders. No voodoo or witchcraft required. Varget is not a speedy powder for this cartridge but it does consistently shoot very well for precision.
Thanks @Ledzep
So I'm trying to build my temp curve for Lever but only have fairly "cool days" right now, not really allowing me to test the powder in a wide range of temps. I have asked this question here before without a good answer, but I will ask you:
Do you have any data on MV at different temps? I.e. 2750fps at 30*F. 2800fps at 50*F, 2850 at 70*F... something like that??? In this example, we can solve for the fps/degree = 100fps/40*F = 2.5 fps/degree. We can input this data into our ballistic programs and we are all set, no voodoo as you say. I have done this with my other powders with great success.
thanks
Stole this from the 6mm ARC Facebook page. Response is from someone asking specifically about Lever.
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It's been between 1.3 and 2.0 fps per degree F when I've tested it myself. Unfortunately I wiped my old 4DoF files recently but I want to say I was using 1.6 or 1.7 as an average and that was working well at the 2-3 matches I used it for.
I think that's right. IIRC CFE 223 was quite a bit worse, like 2-3 fps/deg F. I had banked on just leaving it in 4DoF then pulled a dumbass move and lost all my files lol...
I think that's right. IIRC CFE 223 was quite a bit worse, like 2-3 fps/deg F. I had banked on just leaving it in 4DoF then pulled a dumbass move and lost all my files lol...
I’ve tested it, and anyone who’s claiming a consistent x.x fps per degree probably hasn’t done a very thorough test. I’m on mobile right now, but did post some results earlier in this thread. I saw a big change between 40* and 70*, but almost no change below 40*.
agreed, most of these temp MV curves are not linear, but approximate a line across some temp bands (e.g. your 40 to 70). The more data you have the better your results, but I have zero, or very close to zero right now, so this starting pt is better than zero.
Yeah it's definitely not linear. I tried my best to get 50 to 100 degrees because that's pretty much the range that I want to be outside shooting. I've done some at 0-120 and it's not the same.
Looking through my data, I have very similar results to @Yondering. No change in speed for me from 33 to 64 degrees F.
Separately, my 6 ARC put down another doe this past Saturday with the 108 ELD-M at 2730 FPS. Distance was 237 yards and she didn't take another step after impact. Very happy with the rifle and cartridge performance on small-medium game.
Henryrifle
Separately, my 6 ARC put down another doe this past Saturday with the 108 ELD-M at 2730 FPS. Distance was 237 yards and she didn't take another step after impact. Very happy with the rifle and cartridge performance on small-medium game.
Henryrifle
Good to have something to start with. Consider this though - all of the temp increase I measured for my 105gr Lever load (approx. 75 fps total) happened between 40°F and 75°F. No increase above or below that. 0°F (started at -8° with the entire rifle in the freezer, but I'm assuming it warmed up a little by the time I walked outside) was functionally the same velocity as 40°, which is important to know if you're a cold weather hunter. Same thing happened on the top end; my load pretty much flattened out past 75°F.
My point here is to be careful that the numbers you use were (correctly*) tested close to the temp range you're shooting in. If you'd used my data for 40°-75° and extrapolated that for a subzero cold hunt, you'd be predicting about 80 fps slower than it really was. Averaging across the entire range gets you closer but still not "right".
*IMO correct cold weather testing needs to involve a cold soak of both the rifle and the ammo. Some people (including magazine writers) just freeze the ammo and take it to the range in a cooler; that doesn't give you an accurate test when you're shooting cold ammo in a warm barrel.
For my testing, everything 40° and above was done after a soak at ambient temps. The warm weather tests were done during the summer; that's easy. For the 40° test, I just left the rifle and loaded mag outside on the woodpile for ~4 hours. For the -8°/0° test I put the rifle and loaded mag in the deep freezer for a few hours. Being able to shoot right outside my door makes this a lot easier to do accurately. I do need to test a lot more different loads, it just takes time.
ELD-M on light-skinned medium-game are devastating. I need to try ELD-X and see how they do, I'm thinking that might be a good middle-ground in case you run into heavier-skinned/tougher game or encounter weird anatomical positioning on game and hit bone before organs.
Here's a bisection of 143/147 ELD-X and ELD-M from another forum which shows why there's a difference in performance:
Another:
Clear bisection of the ELD-X:
If you're looking for an exit for a better blood trail, there's likely a better chance you'll get it with the ELD-X.
Here's a bisection of 143/147 ELD-X and ELD-M from another forum which shows why there's a difference in performance:
Another:
Clear bisection of the ELD-X:
If you're looking for an exit for a better blood trail, there's likely a better chance you'll get it with the ELD-X.
Thanks for the insight on the ELD-M v ELD-X. It. looks like the main difference is the interlock on the -X and tapered jacket to retain weight and boost penetration. Right???
I’m into this for both target and hunting, specifically antelope hunting someday and maybe a midwest whitetail. So, it looks like I’d be well served with either the -M or -X. I think, right?
Also, has anyone got some experience with the TAP round? I wonder if it would serve well for hunting.
I’m into this for both target and hunting, specifically antelope hunting someday and maybe a midwest whitetail. So, it looks like I’d be well served with either the -M or -X. I think, right?
Also, has anyone got some experience with the TAP round? I wonder if it would serve well for hunting.
6ARC to over 1 mile?!?!
This is a fun vid
I was yelling at the guy, "send another round quick, don't let the wind change". He needs to work on some other fundamentals too.
In any case, I'm jealous of this dude, out on those lanes with his kid. Nut'ing better.
This is a fun vid
I was yelling at the guy, "send another round quick, don't let the wind change". He needs to work on some other fundamentals too.
In any case, I'm jealous of this dude, out on those lanes with his kid. Nut'ing better.
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As far as terminal performance it's almost identical to the 103 ELD-X. From what I gathered the TAP round won't be available commercially (outside of LE/Mil) any time soon, if ever.
For those looking to consistently shoot medium/big game, the 103 ELD-X is a great option. The 108 will do it if you don't hit serious bone. Kind of the same story as 140/147 vs. 143. The ELD-X is better at holding together and penetrating. The ELD-M's are heavy varmint bullets. Slip them into the vitals and it's devastating. Hit any serious bone and it's a mess.
Hopefully the 90gr GMX will eventually make its way into the ARC as a standard loading. Would be a great option for bigger game. Deer for sure and elk if you're careful.
The tapered jacket is the significant difference with the ELDX. From my own testing of the ELDX and Interlock bullets in a few different calibers, I’m not convinced the interlock ring actually does much, if anything, but the tapered jacket goes a long way to limiting expansion. It’s possible the lead core may be a harder alloy too, some manufacturers do that but I’m not sure about the ELDX in particular. That can also have a big effect.
I took a doe at about the same yardage (235ish)with the 108m and had a good exit wound. I have a 22” Rock creek.
Got my upper and my fathers upper built, BCGs showed up so headed to the range tomorrow.
I love my Razor 1-6, but may end up selling it and picking up a NX8 2.5-20 for it to do some more precision work and possibly shoot some local PRS style matches. For now it should be a heck of a coyote setup
I love my Razor 1-6, but may end up selling it and picking up a NX8 2.5-20 for it to do some more precision work and possibly shoot some local PRS style matches. For now it should be a heck of a coyote setup
What handguard are you using on those? I have an Odin Works 18" on the way, but I still need to pick up a handguard and find a Grendel bolt in stock.
Bolt for 6 ARC:
www.maximfirearms.com
Complete 6mm ARC Advanced Rifle Cartridge Bolt
Complete 6mm ARC Advanced Rifle Cartridge Bolt.Features a 9310 steel bolt, heat treated, hard turned and shot-peened for increased surface strength and durability, and an extractor booster to ensure reliable cycling during rapid semi-auto or full-auto fire. Parts are magnetic particle...
www.maximfirearms.com
Another bolt link...
www.sixfivearms.com
REXUS AR15 UltraBolt 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Mk136 Type 2 Bolt
REXUS AR15 UltraBolt 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Mk136 Type 2 Bolt
www.sixfivearms.com
Parallax Tactical 15.5” FFSSR. Got them at B Kings Firearms. I’ve used them on a lot of build and really like them, especially at their price point. I’m not sure you can buy them anywhere else anymore.
I never bother with different buffer weights, I always just use a standard carbine buffer and adjustable gas block. Makes adjusting for ammo/suppressor/other things on the fly super easy.
Bolt for 6 ARC:
Complete 6mm ARC Advanced Rifle Cartridge Bolt
Complete 6mm ARC Advanced Rifle Cartridge Bolt.Features a 9310 steel bolt, heat treated, hard turned and shot-peened for increased surface strength and durability, and an extractor booster to ensure reliable cycling during rapid semi-auto or full-auto fire. Parts are magnetic particle...
Another bolt link...
REXUS AR15 UltraBolt 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Mk136 Type 2 Bolt
REXUS AR15 UltraBolt 6.5 Grendel / 6mm ARC Mk136 Type 2 Bolt
Thanks, I should have been more specific in that I need a full bcg. I wound up finding an Aero Precision Grendel BCG in stock at Optics Planet:
Aero Precision AR-15 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) Includes Blazin' Deal w/ Free Shipping — 2 models
Shop Aero Precision AR-15 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) | 4.7 Star Rating on 31 Reviews for Aero Precision AR-15 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) Blazin'...
www.opticsplanet.com
I was planning on waiting and buying the barrel, gas block, bcg package directly from Odin Works when they came back into stock. When i called I was told that they didn't know when they were going to do another run of 18" Arcs, but that it would be a couple months anyway, so I scooped up what I could find in stock, which was just the barrel and block from AR15Discounts.
BTW, in case anyone else is looking at that bolt, there is conflicting info on the Aero product page as to whether the bolt itself is Carpenter 158 or 9310, according to the technician I talked to at Aero though, the reference to 158 is old and they are all 9310 now.
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Has anyone tried Reloder 17 in the 6mm ARC yet? Playing around with the latest update of QL, it seems that for bullets on the medium heavy to heavy end of the scale, RL17 is often in the top two or three powders for predicted velocity. The compression levels are higher than many of the ball powders, but still seem like something you could reasonably accomplish with a drop tube and a little bit of crunch. QL is off base sometimes, but it has piqued my curiosity about RL17 for this application.
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