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Rifle Scopes New High End Tactical article
- Thread starter koshkin
- Start date
Update:
It looks like there were issues with my web hosting provider, so I parted ways with them and switched to a different one. Apparently, a bunch of people have not been able to send me e-mails or, sometimes, receive them. That is now all behind me, so at least that is resolved.
56mm scopes:
TT525P with Gen 3 XR is here courtesy of Tangent Theta
Minox ZP5 is enroute (shipped already, thanks Bill)
Kahles K525 is enroute (shipped already, thanks 5RWill)
Leupold Mark 5 7-35x56 is here courtesy of Leupold
S&B PMII 5-25x56 is here courtesy of S&B
ZCO 5-27x56 should be here soon, I'll check with them
M7Xi is supposed to be enroute courtesy of Steiner USA
Nightforce ATACR situation is not yet clear. There was an e-mail issue there. It should now be resolved. I explained to them what I am looking to do, so they can either participate or not. That is entirely up to them. No hard feelings either way.
50mm scopes:
TT315M with Gen2XR is here
ZCO 4-20x50 is available to me since Covertnoob lives around here
Vortex AMG 6-24x50 is here
Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 is supposed to be enroute courtesy of Burris
Historically, when I do these tests, I first mount the scopes on my rifles one by one and spend a fair amount of time shooting them, checking tracking under recoil, etc. Then, I mount them on my tripod fixture and start looking at the optics more carefully. Then, if something interesting pops up, I take them to work and use the collimator to look at things.
This time around, things are a little different and I will start with the optical evaluation. In order to speed things up, rather than spend a ton of time on a long write-up, I will look to make a few videos as I go along and throw them up on YouTube and Gunstreamer as I go along. Please subscribe to my channel at either place and if something is not clear or needs further explanation, ask either there or in this thread or via my website. I will start a page on my website where all of the data, video links and things like that are aggregated.
I will try to do the optical eval as quickly as I can, so that I can return the scopes that I borrowed from private individuals to them. Then, I will spend some more time and effort on the scopes that the manufacturers loaned to me, since I have a little more time flexibility there.
Thanks
ILya
It looks like there were issues with my web hosting provider, so I parted ways with them and switched to a different one. Apparently, a bunch of people have not been able to send me e-mails or, sometimes, receive them. That is now all behind me, so at least that is resolved.
56mm scopes:
TT525P with Gen 3 XR is here courtesy of Tangent Theta
Minox ZP5 is enroute (shipped already, thanks Bill)
Kahles K525 is enroute (shipped already, thanks 5RWill)
Leupold Mark 5 7-35x56 is here courtesy of Leupold
S&B PMII 5-25x56 is here courtesy of S&B
ZCO 5-27x56 should be here soon, I'll check with them
M7Xi is supposed to be enroute courtesy of Steiner USA
Nightforce ATACR situation is not yet clear. There was an e-mail issue there. It should now be resolved. I explained to them what I am looking to do, so they can either participate or not. That is entirely up to them. No hard feelings either way.
50mm scopes:
TT315M with Gen2XR is here
ZCO 4-20x50 is available to me since Covertnoob lives around here
Vortex AMG 6-24x50 is here
Burris XTR III 3.3-18x50 is supposed to be enroute courtesy of Burris
Historically, when I do these tests, I first mount the scopes on my rifles one by one and spend a fair amount of time shooting them, checking tracking under recoil, etc. Then, I mount them on my tripod fixture and start looking at the optics more carefully. Then, if something interesting pops up, I take them to work and use the collimator to look at things.
This time around, things are a little different and I will start with the optical evaluation. In order to speed things up, rather than spend a ton of time on a long write-up, I will look to make a few videos as I go along and throw them up on YouTube and Gunstreamer as I go along. Please subscribe to my channel at either place and if something is not clear or needs further explanation, ask either there or in this thread or via my website. I will start a page on my website where all of the data, video links and things like that are aggregated.
I will try to do the optical eval as quickly as I can, so that I can return the scopes that I borrowed from private individuals to them. Then, I will spend some more time and effort on the scopes that the manufacturers loaned to me, since I have a little more time flexibility there.
Thanks
ILya
Just got notification that ZCO has shipped.
One other thing to add.
I have had my eyes on most of these scopes at some point. Some briefly and some quite thoroughly.
This will be the first time I can look at them thoroughly side by side, which I am really looking forward to.
Given the price range, unless something fairly catastrophic happens, I do not expect any crappy optics. This is unlikely to be an article where I look at a bunch of stuff and proudly proclaim that one stands clearly above the rest in all ways or something along those lines.
Making a high quality riflescope is an art of making small compromises and different manufacturers make them in different ways. I will evaluate what I see as thoroughly as I can and try to understand and explain the compromises made. In a line-up like this, the choice of which works best for you will really depend on what you find important and whether that matches the compromises this particular maker had to make.
I do expect all of these to be quite good. That is not nearly as much fun as when a manufacturer does something stupid, so I can rip them a new one, but in a competitive market we have with scopes in this price range that almost never happens.
My expectation is that I will spend a lot of time figuring out which one best for which application.
ILya
One other thing to add.
I have had my eyes on most of these scopes at some point. Some briefly and some quite thoroughly.
This will be the first time I can look at them thoroughly side by side, which I am really looking forward to.
Given the price range, unless something fairly catastrophic happens, I do not expect any crappy optics. This is unlikely to be an article where I look at a bunch of stuff and proudly proclaim that one stands clearly above the rest in all ways or something along those lines.
Making a high quality riflescope is an art of making small compromises and different manufacturers make them in different ways. I will evaluate what I see as thoroughly as I can and try to understand and explain the compromises made. In a line-up like this, the choice of which works best for you will really depend on what you find important and whether that matches the compromises this particular maker had to make.
I do expect all of these to be quite good. That is not nearly as much fun as when a manufacturer does something stupid, so I can rip them a new one, but in a competitive market we have with scopes in this price range that almost never happens.
My expectation is that I will spend a lot of time figuring out which one best for which application.
ILya
I'm really looking forward to this, as I have a ZCO on order. I really appreciate the time and investment you make in your reviews, as well as your to-the-point style. I feel like you do fair assessments and call out where personal preference has a significant influence vs. quantitative 'better'. Thank you for taking the time to put these scopes through their paces, I'm looking very forward to see the results! I agree, I doubt there will be any bad scopes in a group like that, just slightly better or slightly worse depending on what value you assign to various measures.
I’ve got high hopes for the Steiner. I think for what everyone else has to offer they’re a step back in regards to reticle options in a world where people like options. Though what they have is nice.
I am supposed to be receiving one from EOTech in not too distant future. That would be a very interesting scope to look at side-by-side with the XTR 3 and new Cirmson Trace 5-series.
ILya
ILya
Well, like I said earlier I am new to the forum, I'm currently attending college so money is not something I am made of. I see excellent deals on the XTR-II here on the forum and I am very close to making a purchase. I really only care about one thing in a scope and that is the accuracy of the elevation erector system. Every review I see on the Burris seems more like a sponsorship of the product and not a truthful review. Would you have any information that you believe I might find useful? I don't commonly get to chat with someone with as diverse a background in optics and could really use some advice, I feel a bit drowned in information.
Mechanically, XTR II scopes are very solid. They are durable and they track well. Optically, there have been some changes since they first came out, so recently made scopes are better than the earlier ones. There are also difference model to model.
You did not specify what kind of shooting you want to do, so I can't give you a specific recommendation, but from the ones I have seen, I like the 1-8x24, 2-10x42 and 4-20x50 versions of XTR II. Other magnification ranges were a little worse optically (at least the ones I ahve seen were).
With 1-8x24, I like the FFP model (I have on and use it).
With 2-10x42, I do not think SCR MOA is ideal for this scope, but G2B works well.
With 4-20x50, I like SCR Mil (illuminated).
Both 2-10x42 and 4-20x50 are at their best when you dial elevation and hold for wind, given the reticle options.
ILya
Ilya - I have an ATACR 7-35 Mil-C that you could borrow for a few weeks if NF does not come through. Not the XT you were looking for but probably better than not including it in the test altogether.
A recent production 4-20x50 XTR II would work just fine for you. Depending on the price, PST Gen 2 5-25x50 is a good option as well, as are some Athlon offerings. Start by figuring out what kind of reticle you like.
ILya
I might take you up on that. Now that I migrated everything to another hosting provide, I am reasonably confident my e-mail get through, so I will give Nightforce a few more days to say yay or nay. If they decide they are not interested, I'll take you up on your offer. I like Mil-C reticle, so that should be fine.
To re-iterate an earlier point: if a scope manufacturer decides to not have anything to do with me or if they simply do not have any loaners currently available (that's what Kahles told me), there are no hard feelings and I do not take it personally. They've got a business to run, while I am effectively a professional loudmouth and whether it makes any business sense to have anything to do with me is very arguable. Whether Nightforce decides to loan me their scope or not will have no effect whatsoever on what I think of their product. The product stands on its own merit.
ILya
I might take you up on that. Give me a few days to figure out how my schedule shakes up. I am heading to the East Coast next week for a work trip, so I am going to try to set everything up over the weekend and see what would work best.
ILya
Minox ZP5 5-25x56 and EOTech 5-25x50 are here.
ILya
ILya
That sorta depends on where you shoot. Around here the chance of being able to go above 20x on a distant target is very slim, so high magnification for longer distances has very limited use.
ILya
Great job.
Counting down for the article.
Can I say the list of the scopes you included in your test are pretty much the latest and the high end models from each brand?
No. The models that I tried to include are the ones of most interest to me. Not necessarily the latest and greatest.
ILya
They seem like solid choices to me. Can’t wait to see/read the reviews. I’ve acquired a few more scopes since my 315m, but it is still my favorite(smallish scope). It is so easy to get behind. Might just be that the rifle it is on fits me the best.
You included a Leupold Mk5. How about a Mk8 with the new turrets?
I've seen Mark 8. Nice scope, but the newer Mk5 is more interesting to me (and looks like a really nice design so far).
Ilya
Interested into seeing how the quigley ford stacks up against these scopes....
Can’t wait to see this article. @koshkin seems to have the most valid opinions on scopes.
Can’t wait to see this article. @koshkin seems to have the most valid opinions on scopes.
K525i courtesy of 5RWill is scheduled to be delivered on Monday (tomorrow).
Of the scopes mentioned in post #54 everything is pretty much worked out except for the ATACR, M7Xi and XTR III.
With M7Xi and XTR III, I was told that they have been shipped, but I do not have a tracking number and they are not here yet.
Nightforce stopped replying to my e-mails and now that I have changed my hosting provider I am pretty certain it is not an e-mail issue. Maybe they are travelling. I do not know.
The whole business of chasing after the manufacturers is kinda beginning to annoy me though.
One of the forum members offered to loan me his ATACR, so if I do not hear back from Nightforce by Wednesday or so, I'll borow his scope.
ILya
I do not think I am qualified to review Quigley Ford. I am afraid I'll run out of words trying to describe it.
Ilya
If Nightforce get back in touch what are the chances of getting a new NX8?
Really anticipating this review, I'm hanging out until the end of the year to buy a new scope and hold your opinion in very high regards.
Quick update.
I am doing these in batches, so to speak. I am almost done with the optical side-by-side with these six 56mm scopes.
Next week, I am going to take a look at a few 50mm ones I have here, although there it is not as direct of a competition due to price differences.
The two 56mm scopes that did not make it this time are Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56 and Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56. I will try to borrow these from a couple of Hide members toward the middle of July and revisit some of the 56mm scopes as a comparison.
ILya
I am doing these in batches, so to speak. I am almost done with the optical side-by-side with these six 56mm scopes.
Next week, I am going to take a look at a few 50mm ones I have here, although there it is not as direct of a competition due to price differences.
The two 56mm scopes that did not make it this time are Steiner M7Xi 4-28x56 and Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56. I will try to borrow these from a couple of Hide members toward the middle of July and revisit some of the 56mm scopes as a comparison.
ILya
Subscribed, looking forward to seeing how the AMG stacks up against some of the higher end optics
Too bad you're not closer to the beach...
Why? I am about eight miles from the beach.
ILya
I have a feeling he was thinking you could compare color contrast using bikini material...
I test spotting scopes where I can do that, but I don't post the pictures. Forum rules and all...
ILya
Breaking Kahles fans hearts everywhere....
Thank you. I was keen to know what you thought of regarding the comparison between ZP5 & PMii. Owning both I had my thoughts, but was keen to get the expert opinion on it.
Looking forward to future vids in the same series. Thanks again for all you do
Kahles is capable of making exceedingly nice stuff and have the name recognition. K525 makes no sense to me.
ILya
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