Yeah, it's not like LONG RANGE rifles are ever used to make precision shots under 100 yards... oh wait... That's what most SWAT Sniper shots are AND the average hunting shot is less than 125yds. They are PRECISION rifles. That's the whole point of dot drills at 100yds and the same principle employed when you take shots under 100 yards on even smaller targets.
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- Thread starter -Nick-
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Yeah, it's not like LONG RANGE rifles are ever used to make precision shots under 100 yards... oh wait... That's what most SWAT Sniper shots are AND the average hunting shot is less than 125yds. They are PRECISION rifles. That's the whole point of dot drills at 100yds and the same principle employed when you take shots under 100 yards on even smaller targets.
True. But any stock Rem 700 with irons can make those shots with flat base bullets.
Maybe to 100yds and we're talking guys that all they do is bang paper at 100 with irons. I can GUARANTEE you that few if any of those shooters on here can hit a 2" circle at 200 with irons every time none the less beyond that. It's about honing skills. All distance does is allow you to gather dope and master the wind. All the other skills can be done at 100-500 by simply going smaller.
? i don't think i can hit a 2" at 100yd with irons
I've seen you shoot Pat. If you could see it, you could hit it.
As for honing skills , I agree that everything one needs to practice fundamentals can, & should be done from 100-500 +/-, but inside 100 yds shooting 1-2 moa targets is a waste of time, & equipment. My NF scope won't even focus on anything inside 50 yds. Also, wind, parallax, NPA, recoil control, and everything else one needs to practice for long range is useless inside of 100 yds. The "normal guys" getting ready for deer season can usually hit the black @ 50 yd. Well, some of them anyway... So to get any meaningful practice @ 50 yds the target would need to be moa, or smaller, & even then wind, etc isn't going to be a factor.
Unfortunately I think I'll be out of town this weekend; heading down to Lacey to help my sister move. However, I do make a number of trips to the Seattle area as my company is based in Bothell- maybe we can figure something else out? Thanks!
Bigwheels - It sounds like you want to participate in long range shooting events. At UNSC they offer practical/precision matches, which can offer targets at any range (though they're limited to a max of 550 yards). Golf balls at 60 yards turned out to be quite a challenge last time, and the goal was to hit as many as you could in 15 or 20 seconds. I don't think any of us would have described it as too easy or "a waste of time".
I think the goal is to try to be proficient at any shot you may ever need to take with your rifle.
I think the goal is to try to be proficient at any shot you may ever need to take with your rifle.
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Oregon Sniper Challenge is a lot of LE guys, they say most shot taken are around and under 70 yards , Steve sets the coarse of fire - i just practice them. (my palm only goes down to 25yards for data)
Same screwed up shots i have taken are from a 3rd story tower at 3/4" dots that are 10 yards from base of tower - do that math in your head
Same screwed up shots i have taken are from a 3rd story tower at 3/4" dots that are 10 yards from base of tower - do that math in your head
No one ever said they were shooting at 1-2moa targets. And if they were shooting at 1-2moa targets in awkward positions it could be extremely challenging. As for recoil control and NPA that applies no matter what distance you're shooting at and not just long distance. Parallax only matters in terms of using your scope properly. The only major factors that change drastically at distance are wind,drift, and dope due to the bullets BC changing as it slows and becomes less stable. Parallax, angle, elevation, NPA, recoil control, cant, and most other fundamentals should ALWAYS be practiced whether at 10yds or 1000yds.
Same screwed up shots i have taken are from a 3rd story tower at 3/4" dots that are 10 yards from base of tower - do that math in your head
Mind blown... lol
. Do you still zero at 100yd for those comps?
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Same screwed up shots i have taken are from a 3rd story tower at 3/4" dots that are 10 yards from base of tower - do that math in your head
Up .7 MOA and hold center : )
No Idea but gonna try it!
^ i do know i screwed the tower shots up / but i shot like shit the whole day - i'm suprised Joe wasn't giving me shaken-baby-syndrom that day
/ but i shot like shit the whole day - i'm suprised Joe wasn't giving me shaken-baby-syndrom that dayNick,
The complexity of tracking 11 different impact points was why I said it is often faster to simply dial a correction, rather than trying to figure out which hash mark is being used. Whether the shooter holds in mils, hash marks, or moa, their needing to decide quickly which mark to use is what can make the hold system slower. If there are only a couple of targets, and the shooter knows from memory where to hold, using hold can be faster than dialing each one.
When I was referring to cant, I was referring to cant in the mounting of the scope onto the rifle's rings/base. I think everyone here knows that canting the rifle will screw up a shot. I guess I neglected to say I was referring to cant in the mounting system of the scope. Many new shooters here don't know how to go about mounting scopes so as to eliminate cant, or how to check for it. I have helped out three people recently with mounting that eliminates cant.
I guess the point is that some times dialing is faster, some times using holds is faster. Only practice will teach which one will work better in a given situation. I can remember 2-4 of the impact points, but knowing all 11 is way beyond my capacity to memorize. When referring back to the chart, or dope written on the back of your hand, it IS slower than simply knowing from practice where to hold..but I think you and the majority of other people here know that.
If the last hash mark in my scope hits at 540 yards, dialing is the best way to get a hit at 750 yards...Me hoping for a lucky shot doesn't inspire my confidence.
The complexity of tracking 11 different impact points was why I said it is often faster to simply dial a correction, rather than trying to figure out which hash mark is being used. Whether the shooter holds in mils, hash marks, or moa, their needing to decide quickly which mark to use is what can make the hold system slower. If there are only a couple of targets, and the shooter knows from memory where to hold, using hold can be faster than dialing each one.
When I was referring to cant, I was referring to cant in the mounting of the scope onto the rifle's rings/base. I think everyone here knows that canting the rifle will screw up a shot. I guess I neglected to say I was referring to cant in the mounting system of the scope. Many new shooters here don't know how to go about mounting scopes so as to eliminate cant, or how to check for it. I have helped out three people recently with mounting that eliminates cant.
I guess the point is that some times dialing is faster, some times using holds is faster. Only practice will teach which one will work better in a given situation. I can remember 2-4 of the impact points, but knowing all 11 is way beyond my capacity to memorize. When referring back to the chart, or dope written on the back of your hand, it IS slower than simply knowing from practice where to hold..but I think you and the majority of other people here know that.
If the last hash mark in my scope hits at 540 yards, dialing is the best way to get a hit at 750 yards...Me hoping for a lucky shot doesn't inspire my confidence.
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Go back and read what I said. I never said to hold for distances beyond 300-400 and I never said to memorize anything. You're trying to over complicate something that is extremely simple if rather than focusing on some method you've derived you instead read what I'm actually saying.
Match instruction / learning
My rifle first match ever was at UNSC. I had no idea what to expect. Weeks before the match, Nick took the time to meet me at UNSC where I learned about using the shooter app to adjust velocity to match observed results – before I relied on the crony which seems stupid now. Nick also told me to get off the bench rest and start using chairs, kneeling, and shooting prone so I could expand my skill set. He also said I should try a competition which I did shortly thereafter with all of you.
At the match, lots of you took the time to show me how to kneel properly so the gun is supported better, how to lean into the roof top rig correctly, how to use the bags on the low supported shot, planning of shots, etc. Overall, I’d say no special session would be necessary for a newbie as everyone there is quite helpful, and there is plenty of time between stages to get some advice. I would definitely recommend knowing your dope exactly (as I did) so the only thing you can really blame is yourself for shooting poorly (that is assuming your ammo is loaded with enough precision to be consistent).
There are a few things I have learned since which have made a huge difference in my shooting.
1) The map: Shooting East vs. West at 1000 yards on my rig is about 10 inches or so vertically from the Coriolis effect. I spent a ridiculous amount time trying to figure out why my observed results differed from expected on different days at different areas at the same distances because I wasn’t recording my latitude and azimuth. It wasn’t inconsistent velocity, it was a lack of knowledge about why things work the way they do.
2) MIL / MIL / FFP: I swapped out my scope for a turret matching the reticle and a FFP view. I have found it quicker use the reticle than to spin a turret, and I don’t have to convert anything to adjust for observed impact (thank you Ken Lin at GA Precision). I do miss the finer, more preciser adjustments of the old IPHY turrets, but I can’t see ever going back to SFP again. I still prefer to center up those crosshairs, so I’m not sure I will give up the turret spinning (time and practice will tell)
3) Cheek position: If your head moves enough, you miss even though your crosshairs look right. If you can fall asleep on your rifle lying prone and still see the reticle perfectly with no shadow if you open your eyes, you have it perfect. I had to redo my dope sheet after fixing my head position (thank you Marty and Carl)
4) Spin drift. I am still trying to get exact numbers (a day without wind), but it should be about 4 to 5 inches of spin to the right at 1000 yards. It isn’t all about judging wind…
My rifle first match ever was at UNSC. I had no idea what to expect. Weeks before the match, Nick took the time to meet me at UNSC where I learned about using the shooter app to adjust velocity to match observed results – before I relied on the crony which seems stupid now. Nick also told me to get off the bench rest and start using chairs, kneeling, and shooting prone so I could expand my skill set. He also said I should try a competition which I did shortly thereafter with all of you.
At the match, lots of you took the time to show me how to kneel properly so the gun is supported better, how to lean into the roof top rig correctly, how to use the bags on the low supported shot, planning of shots, etc. Overall, I’d say no special session would be necessary for a newbie as everyone there is quite helpful, and there is plenty of time between stages to get some advice. I would definitely recommend knowing your dope exactly (as I did) so the only thing you can really blame is yourself for shooting poorly (that is assuming your ammo is loaded with enough precision to be consistent).
There are a few things I have learned since which have made a huge difference in my shooting.
1) The map: Shooting East vs. West at 1000 yards on my rig is about 10 inches or so vertically from the Coriolis effect. I spent a ridiculous amount time trying to figure out why my observed results differed from expected on different days at different areas at the same distances because I wasn’t recording my latitude and azimuth. It wasn’t inconsistent velocity, it was a lack of knowledge about why things work the way they do.
2) MIL / MIL / FFP: I swapped out my scope for a turret matching the reticle and a FFP view. I have found it quicker use the reticle than to spin a turret, and I don’t have to convert anything to adjust for observed impact (thank you Ken Lin at GA Precision). I do miss the finer, more preciser adjustments of the old IPHY turrets, but I can’t see ever going back to SFP again. I still prefer to center up those crosshairs, so I’m not sure I will give up the turret spinning (time and practice will tell)
3) Cheek position: If your head moves enough, you miss even though your crosshairs look right. If you can fall asleep on your rifle lying prone and still see the reticle perfectly with no shadow if you open your eyes, you have it perfect. I had to redo my dope sheet after fixing my head position (thank you Marty and Carl)
4) Spin drift. I am still trying to get exact numbers (a day without wind), but it should be about 4 to 5 inches of spin to the right at 1000 yards. It isn’t all about judging wind…
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I think one or both of us is not understanding what the other one is trying to say. Never mind...sorry if I confused anyone. What works for me may not work for others, and vice versa. In any case, it isn't worth further effort for me to try and explain it.
Just let me know when you're free if you head down this way. If you give me a day or so of warning I can grab the rifle from my dad.
Can't wait for the day that my long distance shooting is at such a level that I need to worry about Coriolis and spin drift
I always thought team matches were lots of fun. If the teams are larger than just two men, then tactics helped almost as much as marksmanship. I always thought it was interesting to watch how the various teams would try and solve problems to get better times and scores. I quickly found that the majority of the time, trying to be cute, or super-tricky backfires. We could see other teams doing that and think "Wow, glad we didn't try that."
I think that practical matches like the UNSC ones are great! I can drill pretty small groups at 100 yds most days with no problem, but as soon as improvised positions and (especially) time limits and limited round count are added to the equation, my shooting suffers greatly. I don't practice nearly as much as I should, but over the last couple years of shooting 1-2 matches annually, my improvised positional shooting, as well as my speed and proficiency with my rifle have increased greatly. That's with about a couple years of no-hurry, shooting from benches and prone and making beautiful groups. I feel like if you're not shooting 90% of technical points at 500 yards, why do you need to increase your range? Work on getting great at a few things at a time and the rest of your shooting will improve.
Yes, hitting things at 1000+ yards makes your dick feel huge, but making prone shots at 1000 is MUCH easier than shooting from a 3-4' tall platform at 500 yards, not to mention adding in a tight time limit.
Yes, hitting things at 1000+ yards makes your dick feel huge, but making prone shots at 1000 is MUCH easier than shooting from a 3-4' tall platform at 500 yards, not to mention adding in a tight time limit.
I guess some aren't understanding the point I was trying to make about shooting "precision" at less than 100 yds. My point is, a ton of people think they are great marksmen because they can shoot good groups @ 50, & 100 yds, but when they move out to 300, or 500 yds they always wonder why they can't hit shit, & usually blame the equipment. It's because the little things they are doing wrong don't effect shots @ 50, & 100 yds like they do at longer range. So shooting at small targets @ short ranges can let you develop terrible habits, that will kick your ass when you reach out farther. I didn't win the ELR match last week because I practiced a bunch of dot drills @ 50 yds.
Also, police marksmen don't need to hit a pencil eraser @ 50 yds to take out a bad guy. The "T" size on a human head @ 50 yds is more like 2 moa. It's not good marksmanship that makes those "high stress" shots. Its training, & practice for "high stress" shooting that makes the shot.
But I agree that the time/stress factor in a "tactical" match does help to hone those abilities that are required for good marksmanship under stress. But the good marksmanship has to be there first.
Also, police marksmen don't need to hit a pencil eraser @ 50 yds to take out a bad guy. The "T" size on a human head @ 50 yds is more like 2 moa. It's not good marksmanship that makes those "high stress" shots. Its training, & practice for "high stress" shooting that makes the shot.
But I agree that the time/stress factor in a "tactical" match does help to hone those abilities that are required for good marksmanship under stress. But the good marksmanship has to be there first.
You're going into hyperbole about what was said and you're trying to warp the scenario to fit your argument. No a sniper does not need to hit a pencil eraser at 50 yards, but when it's a moving target, down angle, off hand, from cover, and with a hostage it doesn't matter if it's a 2-3moa target because it's still a tough shot even for a "precision" shooter which was the whole point.
So... I'll personally invite you out to the practical matches, offer to pay the entry fee, and I'll pay for any steel you damage with your 300WM so you can use it just to prove my point provided Unknown and Kevin agree to the steel issue.
Target size, distance, time, position, and stress are all factors aside from those of equipment. Equipment can be largely controlled. A 4 MOA target at 100 yards from a bench rest is easy. A 4 MOA target at 700 yards under the stress of a short time and from an awkward position is an entirely different challenge. When all 5 of the facors in my first sentence are combined with smaller targets, I begin to feel like I haven't practiced enough. If I'm correct, this is what Laurel, and Bigwheels are both referring to.
Some years ago, I tried staying on a target at 100 yards for 10 minutes. Just staying alert and concentrating on the target as if I were waiting for someone to say "Fire!". It seemed like an eternity. At the 3 minute mark, I though it must be close to 8 minutes already..then I looked at my watch. The next day, the back of my neck felt like I had been rear-ended by an 18 wheeler. I haven't tried that since.
Some years ago, I tried staying on a target at 100 yards for 10 minutes. Just staying alert and concentrating on the target as if I were waiting for someone to say "Fire!". It seemed like an eternity. At the 3 minute mark, I though it must be close to 8 minutes already..then I looked at my watch. The next day, the back of my neck felt like I had been rear-ended by an 18 wheeler. I haven't tried that since.
Wow. I haven't been called out like that in a long time. As if I haven't competed in a tactical match before. Or won any either for that matter with a 3 rnd blind magazine bolt gun. Or maybe hosted a few myself up in Acme.
Well, sorry to disappoint everyone but I'm not planning to wake up @ 6:00 on a Saturday to prove anything to anyone. I think there are many here who will vouch for my ability to hit targets off a baracade under time. I have hit living, moving targets @ over 500 yds sitting unsupported, & he's hanging on my wall now. That was far more stressful than anything I have ever done in a match. Been there, done that.
Well, sorry to disappoint everyone but I'm not planning to wake up @ 6:00 on a Saturday to prove anything to anyone. I think there are many here who will vouch for my ability to hit targets off a baracade under time. I have hit living, moving targets @ over 500 yds sitting unsupported, & he's hanging on my wall now. That was far more stressful than anything I have ever done in a match. Been there, done that.
No ones "Called you out". I flat out said "to prove my point" which would mean if anything I was having to prove myself. I like how you keep dropping matches you've won and everything you've done with basic equipment to somehow impress and bully me out of the argument. And don't talk to me about having to get up early to go shooting because we all do that and for some of us we have to travel 3.5-4 hours just to get to 1K area. It's an excuse...
Found a nice video on barricade shooting by Adam Lucksinger of the Precision Rifle Series: Barricade Training Video - Video Dailymotion
Dude you need to get back on your meds or something. You were obviously infering that I needed to shoot a match @ UN so you could prove how hard it is. As if I'd never shot one before. And I'm not dropping the matches I've won to bully anyone. Just stating facts. I'm saying that a 2 moa target @ 50 yds is easier to hit than a 2 moa target @ 500 yds given the same position.
I'm done with this juvenile pissing match.
I'm done with this juvenile pissing match.
I think all have touched on good points, but it has come to a pissing match. The original question was basically how can the new shooters learn more from matches.
Watch the guys that are winning matches. This includes youtube videos, local matches, etc. Go up and ask questions after the match is over or at breaks. Everyone is in this sport to help out really. Having shot with some of the best in the nation as well as being good friends with alot of them, they are all willing to help out and give suggestions. Listen to what they have to say on technique, equipment, etc, but don't bug them so much it becomes a hinderance to their own shooting.
The biggest thing is just get out and shoot. Whether is 100yds or 1000yds, their is no substitute for trigger time. Practice from barricades or natural barricades. I realize its difficult for some to shoot anywhere other than a range, so they will need some props. If you can get out into the field and use "natural" props, it will help out even more. Most matches are just that, FIELD matches with natural terrain, not a groomed range. Train how you are going to use the training.
Push yourself until you start falling off on the accuracy, and then back off a little. Speed will come, but accuracy is where everyone should focus on first. There are 2 things I see new guys trying to do that hurt them. The first is speed. They try to go so fast that they are missing hits and getting discouraged.....SLOW DOWN. This is precision rifle, not 3 gun. The second is the equipment race. All the latest gear is great, but an accurate rifle is the most important. Jesse and I won most of the matches we shot in the early days using our BDL coyote rifles with Duplex reticles. This included multiple Findlay Cup, Idaho State Sniper Challenge, and others. The main reason, we knew the guns and they are accurate.
Shooting ELR is fun, but it takes more equipment than most want to dive into. Considering that 90% of matches the bulk of the targets are in the 300-700 range and beginning to be more positional, the practice we do at UN is perfect. Match directors are realizing that its pretty easy to hit stuff prone, no matter what the distance. So what do we do, either make the targets smaller, add a short time, or something positional. This is all the stuff we need to practice.
Hopefully this all makes sense.
Watch the guys that are winning matches. This includes youtube videos, local matches, etc. Go up and ask questions after the match is over or at breaks. Everyone is in this sport to help out really. Having shot with some of the best in the nation as well as being good friends with alot of them, they are all willing to help out and give suggestions. Listen to what they have to say on technique, equipment, etc, but don't bug them so much it becomes a hinderance to their own shooting.
The biggest thing is just get out and shoot. Whether is 100yds or 1000yds, their is no substitute for trigger time. Practice from barricades or natural barricades. I realize its difficult for some to shoot anywhere other than a range, so they will need some props. If you can get out into the field and use "natural" props, it will help out even more. Most matches are just that, FIELD matches with natural terrain, not a groomed range. Train how you are going to use the training.
Push yourself until you start falling off on the accuracy, and then back off a little. Speed will come, but accuracy is where everyone should focus on first. There are 2 things I see new guys trying to do that hurt them. The first is speed. They try to go so fast that they are missing hits and getting discouraged.....SLOW DOWN. This is precision rifle, not 3 gun. The second is the equipment race. All the latest gear is great, but an accurate rifle is the most important. Jesse and I won most of the matches we shot in the early days using our BDL coyote rifles with Duplex reticles. This included multiple Findlay Cup, Idaho State Sniper Challenge, and others. The main reason, we knew the guns and they are accurate.
Shooting ELR is fun, but it takes more equipment than most want to dive into. Considering that 90% of matches the bulk of the targets are in the 300-700 range and beginning to be more positional, the practice we do at UN is perfect. Match directors are realizing that its pretty easy to hit stuff prone, no matter what the distance. So what do we do, either make the targets smaller, add a short time, or something positional. This is all the stuff we need to practice.
Hopefully this all makes sense.
I can personally attest that Travis has been very generous with his advice and coaching - much appreciated.
Bigwheels,
I hope you didn't think I was calling you out..I was trying to agree with you and Laurel. You both made good points.
I hope you didn't think I was calling you out..I was trying to agree with you and Laurel. You both made good points.
Not you for sure. I took issue with Nick. He was rude, & combative. Not to mention incoherent in his arguments against my opinion.
You have invited me out to the matches several times. I have respectfully declined in deference to the others not wanting to wait for the targets to be reset after I knock them down, or bend them up. Actually, my 225 load was powerful, but now I'm running the Berger 230's @ 2901fps. So I'm pretty sure anything other than setting the stands in concrete will result in damage, & delays for the rest of the group.
You have invited me out to the matches several times. I have respectfully declined in deference to the others not wanting to wait for the targets to be reset after I knock them down, or bend them up. Actually, my 225 load was powerful, but now I'm running the Berger 230's @ 2901fps. So I'm pretty sure anything other than setting the stands in concrete will result in damage, & delays for the rest of the group.
steel damage
I think the steel damage thing is a bit overrated. The only targets I think would truly be at risk would be at the 100 yard line or maybe the 200 yard line, and only if they were mechanical, which if I recall isn’t used at the matches at UNSC (at least the day I was there). The average hanging AR500 target can take a hell of a beating and unless they are setup poorly and fall over. Most of the time, they should be just fine from a large bore powerhouse round. One more thing to consider is the bullet type. I shoot the Bergers and they basically self-destruct on anything they hit (animals too). They aren't bonded, and they are thin jacketed, so they just explode and leave a giant lead splat as many of you already know. A bonded hunting bullet of the same weight behaves differently and concentrates the force a bit more, but overall I can't see AR500 caring much about being shot by anything we can throw at it (non-armor piercing). If a mechanical is out at 500 yards, I don't think it would matter what you shot at it. I could be wrong - I have been before.
Now please don't let this get into a pissing match with anybody - I'm not trying to pick a fight - this is just my humble opinion. I think the match damage hype from magnum rounds is a little silly. A fast enough lighter round can hit just as hard as a slower heavy one. That said, I tend to shoot my magnum quite a bit under its capabilities because I found an amazing sweet spot in accuracy. I'd love to shoot it 300 fps faster, and the case has room for the powder, but the round gets kind of crazy and lands all over a target, it's harder on the brass, harder on my shoulder, and decreases barrel life a bit. Powder is just too hard to come by these days for the extra amount per load and in the under 1000 yard game, it doesn't matter that much with my high BC bullet. At 1000 yards, a 260 and my 7mm WSM are different with mine having less drop, but it is not that substantial, and not enought that I feel I have any significant advantage (against a .223 or a 308 yes, but a 260 or 300WM ...no).
I think the steel damage thing is a bit overrated. The only targets I think would truly be at risk would be at the 100 yard line or maybe the 200 yard line, and only if they were mechanical, which if I recall isn’t used at the matches at UNSC (at least the day I was there). The average hanging AR500 target can take a hell of a beating and unless they are setup poorly and fall over. Most of the time, they should be just fine from a large bore powerhouse round. One more thing to consider is the bullet type. I shoot the Bergers and they basically self-destruct on anything they hit (animals too). They aren't bonded, and they are thin jacketed, so they just explode and leave a giant lead splat as many of you already know. A bonded hunting bullet of the same weight behaves differently and concentrates the force a bit more, but overall I can't see AR500 caring much about being shot by anything we can throw at it (non-armor piercing). If a mechanical is out at 500 yards, I don't think it would matter what you shot at it. I could be wrong - I have been before.
Now please don't let this get into a pissing match with anybody - I'm not trying to pick a fight - this is just my humble opinion. I think the match damage hype from magnum rounds is a little silly. A fast enough lighter round can hit just as hard as a slower heavy one. That said, I tend to shoot my magnum quite a bit under its capabilities because I found an amazing sweet spot in accuracy. I'd love to shoot it 300 fps faster, and the case has room for the powder, but the round gets kind of crazy and lands all over a target, it's harder on the brass, harder on my shoulder, and decreases barrel life a bit. Powder is just too hard to come by these days for the extra amount per load and in the under 1000 yard game, it doesn't matter that much with my high BC bullet. At 1000 yards, a 260 and my 7mm WSM are different with mine having less drop, but it is not that substantial, and not enought that I feel I have any significant advantage (against a .223 or a 308 yes, but a 260 or 300WM ...no).
Magnums taking out bolts on targets is a real thing, been there done that. Most issues i see can be fixed with a 3rd hole & bolt (that way when 1 gets fragged it still hags strait, 2nd bolt frag it will hang sideways but still ok. Most big matches, say 30 + shooters it gets to be a big pain to stop everyone and go fig targets, and many matches it means stopping 3 courses of fire because someone is down range. We have set out extra targets on the short ranges, just in case they go down. Speed Kills!! , and i'm sure a 450gr bullet going 2800 will knock shit silly also.
? i don't recall any of Big Wheels targets going down.
? i don't recall any of Big Wheels targets going down.
You are both right IMHO. The target itself will hold up to the pounding. None of my targets fell at any of my matches. But my closest one was @ 280 iirc. When Tribe, & I shot my cof the day after my matches I was able to knock over one of them by hitting it while it was still spinning. The small 6" hanging on fire hose was whirling like a spinner after being hit with 208's, & 210's. I think with the T-post type stands will get trashed by a 230gr going 2900fps at the closer ranges. They will loosen up in the ground, get twisted, & bent. I could also see the target being knocked off the top of the post as well. I have twisted one up in Acme @ 750yd by hitting the outer edge.
I have seen a 50 BMG turn a sheet of AR500 into a taco in a single shot, so heck yes...enough power will destroy anything. I was not aware of the bolt frag thing - you may have a point there.
I just did the solution with the energy for my new load, & it's still got almost 3400 ft/lbs @ 300 yds. I'm not going to waste my expensive ammo, & unobtanium bullets on a comp that's 3+ hrs away for targets only going out to 500 ish yds. I just don't see a return on investment. For some that's a good investment, but not for me.
I watched Luke shoot a 300wsm ant a 6" square, hit right between the bolts, sheared both off and the target fell strait down off the strapping, funny as hell .... only because he didn't have to take a second shot & we had back up target also
This is why most matches have gone away from Magnums. Bolts and straps take a beating. There are some fantastic targets out there that will take a beating, but unless its a dedicated range, most won't want to spend the money on them. Having shot matches across the US, the larger matches do have targets that will withstand the constant abuse and not go down during the match. But even at that, some of them still limit magnums. There is no question they hit harder, but its not needed for "games". My 6mm shoots 105's .5mils flatter and only has .2mils more wind then Jeff's listed load at 1k. Outside of this, the bigger cases begins to walk away, but most matches are sub 1k and the elevation is sometimes a critical factor. Sure it doesn't hit with as much energy, but if I need to cause a hurt on something, then the big 7mm or 338 Edge comes out. I will guarantee you that if you have a guy shoot a 300WM from a baricade or roof top, then have him shoot the same scenario with a 260 or 243, his times will be faster as will his hits, and he will agree that its better for that application. I do agree with Jeff that its a waste of money and components to shoot 230's at 500 yds. Thats another reason new guys should stick with smaller cartridges to start.
This next statement is going to hurt some feelings, but if you really look at it before reacting, you will realize its very much the truth. In this precision rifle match game, with the bulk of the ranges within the 500-800yd range, magnums offer no advantage and actually put the shooter at a disadvantage with added recoil, blast, heat, etc.. With todays components and efficient cartridges, we simply have better choices for this game than running large magnums. If we are hunting, then that is a different story or shooting specialized matches like ELR events, which are few and far between. Honestly, its a great thing we have so many choices and can have a "tool box" to be able to take out the correct tool for the application at hand.
Extra Disclaimer: It sounds like I am bashing magnums. That is not the case here at all. I build more magnum rifles then I do anything else for Long Range Hunting setups. I have developed my own line of wildcat Magnums. I am just saying that for this "hi volume" shooting game, they may not be the best choice.
This next statement is going to hurt some feelings, but if you really look at it before reacting, you will realize its very much the truth. In this precision rifle match game, with the bulk of the ranges within the 500-800yd range, magnums offer no advantage and actually put the shooter at a disadvantage with added recoil, blast, heat, etc.. With todays components and efficient cartridges, we simply have better choices for this game than running large magnums. If we are hunting, then that is a different story or shooting specialized matches like ELR events, which are few and far between. Honestly, its a great thing we have so many choices and can have a "tool box" to be able to take out the correct tool for the application at hand.
Extra Disclaimer: It sounds like I am bashing magnums. That is not the case here at all. I build more magnum rifles then I do anything else for Long Range Hunting setups. I have developed my own line of wildcat Magnums. I am just saying that for this "hi volume" shooting game, they may not be the best choice.
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Agree, the high speed low drag is the way to go on paper and hits for score.
love the impact a 190-220gr makes on dirt at 1200 than a 123gr when you miss and go "i didn't see impact"
love the impact a 190-220gr makes on dirt at 1200 than a 123gr when you miss and go "i didn't see impact"My reason for not having magnums is the time it will take to reset the targets that get knocked over. I haven't had to deal with sheared bolts and/or hanger straps, but these would also hold up the match. I have a magnum I would love to use, but inside of 550 yards, it is a waste of power, especially when I have a number of other rifles that will work just fine.
No hurt feelings here. I didn't build a 22lb 300WM for shooting "tactical" matches. I built it for elr, & lr hunting. And since I can't/won't afford another rifle for dedicated tactical matches I am only slightly annoyed that my rifle isn't allowed in most matches. When I started lr shooting I didn't know there was such a thing. I don't think there was such a thing almost 20 yrs ago. Hell I didn't have internet back then.
Travis put out some very solid advise here.
Its about compressing and optimizing your shooting solution. Getting into position and sending it while maintaining solid fundamentals, understanding the concept of the stage and maximizing your scoring opportunities. Slow doesn't necessarily equal accuracy, but trying to solve the problem too fast is not the solution either. Every one will have a different natural shooting tempo. I dry fire a bunch and try to push my shooting tempo, target ID, build my position quick, re ID, fine tune my NPA and brake the trigger. Attempting to get the perfect sight picture from a barricade will waste a ton of time. Learning when the sight picture is good enough to score a hit and affect the target takes practice. Only time I shoot for groups is during load testing. Everything else is dots drills or positional.
Kevin did a great job setting this match up and was very practical in every way for a hunting, Mil and LEO perspective. My only complaint is we didn't have enough stages. I'd like to see 6-8 stages mostly because it takes me a stage or two to warm up LOL. This was a great mini example of how PRS matches and big two day matches run. I hope to see this match grow, great MD, solid competitors and good venue.
The folks that showed to at the UNSC match this weekend were a very fun, friendly group and this type of match is perfect for learning. UNSC is limited on distance but not quality. I would expect to see most of the match positional since the voodoo of 700 and out atmospherics do not apply. Practical Rifle is really the evolution of the game for guys that get bored shooting sighters, 60 seconds per shot and 9 points for a miss.
Hopefully UNSC will allow me to run a few classes out at the club.
One rifle
Unfortunately, I only have one rifle worthy of shooting at a match. It is a very nice gun all custom GA Precision, but I bought it strictly as a long range hunting rig. I found the match scene later. I'm kind of stuck with the decision I made before I knew any better. Maybe by the time I have another 800 or so rounds down the pipe will I re-barrel it and size down.
GA Precision: Bartlein Barrel in a Sendero taper, Templar Action, Badger bottom metal, Jewell Trigger, Thruster Break, McMillin A3-5 stock, Bushnell XRS 4.5x30x50 FFP optics, Badger rings, tab gear sling -- and what the hell was I thinkinging 13+ lbs while I climb hills on hunting trips.
Unfortunately, I only have one rifle worthy of shooting at a match. It is a very nice gun all custom GA Precision, but I bought it strictly as a long range hunting rig. I found the match scene later. I'm kind of stuck with the decision I made before I knew any better. Maybe by the time I have another 800 or so rounds down the pipe will I re-barrel it and size down.
GA Precision: Bartlein Barrel in a Sendero taper, Templar Action, Badger bottom metal, Jewell Trigger, Thruster Break, McMillin A3-5 stock, Bushnell XRS 4.5x30x50 FFP optics, Badger rings, tab gear sling -- and what the hell was I thinkinging 13+ lbs while I climb hills on hunting trips.
