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RH Twist vsLH Twist
- Thread starter krw
- Start date
Feel,
maybe not Feel it, you will see it, and it does make a difference, but in the prone you won't feel it, you might off you belly.
It has a positive impact for sure
maybe not Feel it, you will see it, and it does make a difference, but in the prone you won't feel it, you might off you belly.
It has a positive impact for sure
No, a Left Handed Person wants a RH Twist
A Right Handed Person Wants a LH Twist
That is actually the correct way to do it
A Right Handed Person Wants a LH Twist
That is actually the correct way to do it
To make sure I understand twist directions, a RH twist will spin the bullet clockwise as viewed from the rear (shooter’s perspective)?
308s are not really sensitive, a 1-10 is perfect
In some of the other calibers twist plays a bit more of a role, their bullets are longer too so it’s a factor
I dont see it for 308
In some of the other calibers twist plays a bit more of a role, their bullets are longer too so it’s a factor
I dont see it for 308
A barrel creates torque in the opposite direction of the rifling, it seems counter intuitive but true. So left hand twist creates torque that drives the recoil more to the center line of the body for a right hand shooter, this mitigates "shooter drift". The short of it is in an apples to apples comparison you'll shoot tighter groups at distance. Gain twist is less sensitive to bullet weight.
I am a right hand shooter and a good friend of mine who was a Marine sniper instructor taught me that trick several years ago. And I shoot with a left hand twist barrel and it has made a lot of difference for me. Your mileage may very. Trained with him for two years before his death.
No, the torque on the bullet is the same direction as the barrel twist. The barrel torques the bullet that way, the bullet torques the barrel the other way.
So out of curiosity are there any ballistic apps the take in consideration say right twist compared to left twist and RH shooter compared to LH shooter? I know my app asks for twist direction but nothing about the shooter's.
Or if it's insignificant and just falls under spin drift?
Or if it's insignificant and just falls under spin drift?
Spin drift is all a calculator can solve for.
The impact the torque has on the shooter is shooter specific. The torque into the centerline of a shooter will be easier to mitigate as it’s moving to your centerline.
But there’s no way for software to allow for that.
This is a common misconception and internet myth. The torque on barrel is in the same direction as the barrel twist. Do some research.
Does an engineering degree count as research? I didn't ask the internet for help this one, it's self-evident if you think through it in a certain way.
The way I visualize it is: Imagine the rifling is a series of ramps (the lands, specifically). The bullet's like a baseball, thrown at the ramps. It's easiest to conceptualize just one of these ramps. I'll set up some analogous terms here:
- Baseball = bullet
- Ramp = land
- Up = clockwise as viewed from behind (a RH twist)
- Down = counterclockwise as viewed from behind
Now, when you throw the
The same works in a rotational frame of reference, as opposed to the linear frame of reference in the baseball analogy. When the bullet hits the lands and is abruptly forced to rotate clockwise, the bullet is "bouncing" off of the lands in a sense (not the technical terms, I can provide those if you'd like), which forces the lands (which are intrinsically part of the barrel) to rotate in the opposite direction, counterclockwise as viewed from behind.
This is simple application of Newton's Third Law in a rotational frame of reference.
Now, a more interesting conversation is about LH vs RH twist benefiting a given shooter. This rotational force applied to the barrel by the bullet is around the bore axis (which typically happens to be very close to the line of a horizontal cheek riser, at least on my setup). So, if you imagine the gun spinning around the bore, this conversation about the spin pushing the rifle "into" the shooter as opposed to "away" from them really depends on which part of the rifle we're talking about, and which part of the shooter.
Because the bore (around which the whole rifle is theoretically rotating when the gun is fired) is essentially in line with the cheek riser on my setup, the riser doesn't move closer to or further from my cheek, it would just rotate in place irrespective of twist direction. However, both the scope and the grip are off of that axis, so they'll tend to move in opposite directions which depend on the twist direction. On a RH twist barrel, for a right-handed shooter, the scope will tend to rotate towards the shooter's centerline, and the grip will rotate towards the firing hand. With a LH barrel, those two components will move in the other direction. This is what has me curious about this whole "right-hand shooters want a LH twist;" I feel like I'd rather have the grip rotate INTO my hand (as it would with a RH twist), rather than try to buck OUT of my grip. But, I haven't shot a LH twist, so I'd be curious to do so at some point, with a centerfire rig that would generate enough rotational inertia to detect.
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Ok college boy think on this. As the the bullet starts down the the bore, at that start, you are right as the the bullet picks up speed then it starts to push against the lands which in turn torques the barrel in the same direction. At first the bullet fights the rotation after it starts to spin it wants to continue to spin.
Actually, on most centerfire setups of "typical" barrel lengths, more length equals more muzzle velocity. Which means that for the full length of the barrel, the bullet is accelerating forward. And, other than the extremely odd case of a "twist-loss" barrel (opposite of gain twist), the twist rate is either a constant or twisting faster; in both of those latter cases, as the bullet accelerates forward it also accelerates in rotation. To accelerate in a rotational direction, the bullet requires a rotational force (a simple application of Newton's First Law in a rotational frame of reference lol), which means that the bullet is getting forced to rotate faster and faster as it travels down the bore, and that force is applied by...the lands. And if rotational force is being continually applied by the lands on the bullet, then it's being continually applied by the bullet on the lands.
Your statement that the bullet wants to continue to spin is correct in part; however, it only wants to spin at the exact RPM that it's already spinning. It doesn't want to spin faster, and yet it's made to spin faster, by the rifling.
So, in almost all centerfire setups, the bullet still torques the barrel, even as it's exiting the muzzle. 22LR is the most common case where this isn't true; after somewhere around 20-24" you start to see reduced muzzle velocity, where the lands are dragging on the bullet, and in this case the torque directions reverse after the point in the barrel at which MV starts to drop. Believe it or not, right at the end of this travel down the bore, the bullet is actually pulling the barrel forward very faintly, as the barrel drags on the bullet.
Harry Pope a competitive Silohoutte Shooter from the Turn of the century, who was also a gunsmith who made the LH Gain Twist Barrels by hand, had his record hold for 47 years... his custom rifles are in the NRA museums
Lee Enfields were LH Twist, a lot of rifles were when barrels were made by Hand ... machines changed that because screws turn to the right
Even Pesja, Ballistician prior to your current favorite guy said in the Northern Hemisphere we should shoot a LH Twist barrel and that doing so would mechanically work to cancel out the "drift" issue. he died, so he can't argue against the other guys today.
LH twist is more centerline, not less
if you never shot one, your engineering degree is wasted here, you have no clue you are making invisible arguments try shooting one ...
A LH GT Barrel is easier to shoot, load for, and dope accurately and pressure are identical
Lee Enfields were LH Twist, a lot of rifles were when barrels were made by Hand ... machines changed that because screws turn to the right
Even Pesja, Ballistician prior to your current favorite guy said in the Northern Hemisphere we should shoot a LH Twist barrel and that doing so would mechanically work to cancel out the "drift" issue. he died, so he can't argue against the other guys today.
LH twist is more centerline, not less
if you never shot one, your engineering degree is wasted here, you have no clue you are making invisible arguments try shooting one ...
A LH GT Barrel is easier to shoot, load for, and dope accurately and pressure are identical
Well I didn’t weigh in on the veracity of the “better vs worse” part, I specifically said I didn’t have personal experience with it and would be interested to try it.
If I was gonna use my engineering degree to try to run that one down lol, I’d clamp RH and LH twist guns by the barrel into a fixture that let them rotate under recoil and see what happened with a high-speed camera and possibly load cells on a few different points. But alas, I don’t have personal access to a physics lab, and I doubt we could convince a college to run this particular experiment…
Friction
Your are correct in one aspect and that is newtons law. The rifling does impart rotational energy to the bullet. The bullet’s rotational energy is clockwise for a right twist and an equal amount of counterclockwise rotational energy is transferred to the barrel.
However this barrel rotational energy is minuscule when compared to the frictional energy of a bullet being forced down a steel barrel with a diameter slightly smaller than the bullet. As an engineer, I guess you understand friction. Remember a typical 308 cartridge generates in excess of 50,000 psi to force the bullet down the barrel.
This friction of the bullet and barrel causes the barrel to torque in the direction of the bullet spin.
Here is a good video by Greg Dykstra of Primal Rights:
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After I switched to LH twist barrels I have noticed that staying on target is easier than before.. Would not have believed it unless I hadn’t tried it…
Try it you just might like it.
Try it you just might like it.
Idiots
Just like that mArk and sAm sHoW when they were asked,
Bunch of people who have no clue making a bunch of guesses in ten different directions but not having the first clue
The correct answer for 99% of you is...
I DONT KNOW I NEVER SHOT ONE
Really easy, just repeat after me, you can say, " I don't never I never shot one, but the concept seems backward but those using them seem to like them". Barrel maker is making more than before so market seems to like it
Just like that mArk and sAm sHoW when they were asked,
Bunch of people who have no clue making a bunch of guesses in ten different directions but not having the first clue
The correct answer for 99% of you is...
I DONT KNOW I NEVER SHOT ONE
Really easy, just repeat after me, you can say, " I don't never I never shot one, but the concept seems backward but those using them seem to like them". Barrel maker is making more than before so market seems to like it
I'm going to go with the guy who does this stuff all the time.... so for a lefty shooter we should shoot a Right Hand twist?
It's not really about whether should use or shouldn't use one, that is the wrong question or statement
These are minor, minor things that once you reach a particular point in your shooting you can exploit
That said, a Gain Twist Barrel is not sensitive to bullet weight and reloads very easily. Most guys land on a load very quickly and it's a lot less variation
The LH vs RH in this context of the Shooter is one, you kinda gotta be good to exploit. It's really minor, yes you will stay on target better, the rifle will recoil with you not against you. If you shoot positional you can almost feel it, especially if you compare it.
But for most people it's not a consideration because it's a single-digit change, not something bigger
These are minor, minor things that once you reach a particular point in your shooting you can exploit
That said, a Gain Twist Barrel is not sensitive to bullet weight and reloads very easily. Most guys land on a load very quickly and it's a lot less variation
The LH vs RH in this context of the Shooter is one, you kinda gotta be good to exploit. It's really minor, yes you will stay on target better, the rifle will recoil with you not against you. If you shoot positional you can almost feel it, especially if you compare it.
But for most people it's not a consideration because it's a single-digit change, not something bigger
I have, and shoot alot, a barrel that’s left gain and a barrel that’s standard-right twist in very similar calibers. I switch between them regularly on the same chassis. You can absolutely feel a difference when you shoot them. I don’t think I shoot one any better than the other. They both print tiny little groups at 100 from prone or supported positions. But there’s absolutely a different feel. I don’t know if I’ve ever paid attention, by way of comparison, to how easily they stay on target. It’s also worth noting that this is set up for comp shooting so the whole thing is pretty heavy for the caliber. I have another barrel coming from the same manufacturer, same steel, and the same chamber-cutter in a right, non-gain twist….for when the left gainer wears out. I’ll compare accordingly.
I will definitely not be repeating any phrases about having never shot one.
I will definitely not be repeating any phrases about having never shot one.
BTW: for you guys with LH barrels, I’ve got some left-twist bullets I’m gonna put on the PX. From a limited Berger production run, 30 cal. 180 gr. They’re pricy but hey you’ll need em for that barrel.
LOL "frictional energy"?
Where in the fuck do you shithouse engineers come up with shit like that? Friction isn't energy.
If that frictional energy BS was true none of you would be using muzzle brakes as the bullet would "pull" the gun forward with it. That desert tech in the video twist the other way and bounces back to the right, I would have though he would be usinga high speed camera. What matters to recoil is net energy/momentum at point of release (and gas effects on top). There are thousands of steam turbine generators and turbine engines working exactly opposite to that fantasy, not to mention liquid jet propulsion units.
I'll probably never be a fraction of the shooter old mate is, but he's a see you next Tuesday of an engineer.
I'll probably never be a fraction of the shooter old mate is, but he's a see you next Tuesday of an engineer.
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“Frictional energy” was probably a bad use of terminology. I’m not an engineer. But if you read the post it is obvious I’m referring to the force or energy required to overcome the tremendous friction between the bullet and bore. This is what causes the barrel torque to follow the bullet spin.
Your idea is not only an oversimplification of a complex mechanical system, it's also wrong.
Nothing is "obvious" when dealing with the actions and reactions of forces. If it was so obvious, there wouldn't be year long courses dedicated to learn how to calculate them, analyze them, and use them to our benefit.
TBH, like most of the crap that gets believed about shooting there is nothing but anecdotal evidence that rifling direction makes any measurable difference.
So in your imaginary world, rifle barrels torque in the opposite direction of barrel twist. I choose to believe the legendary barrel maker Pope and Frank Green of Bartlein Barrels. Pope said that LH barrels were easier for a right-handed shooter to control. Green is a left-handed shooter and likes RH barrels because he says they torque into his cheek (rifle torques in same direction as twist). Green also likes the GT barrels. I have a Bartlein GT that I use for F-Class and it shoots very well.
I do believe that rifling direction can make a difference and there are benefits to GT barrels. Does this apply to everyone? of course not. If you are at a level of shooting to take advantage of these small changes, it may make a difference.
Fun fact, your note about Frank Green actually proves .308pirates’ point. Since the stock is affixed to the action from the bottom of the barrel the only way for it to push into his cheek is if it rotates counter clockwise since the pivot point is the bore itself not the bottom of the rifle.
Think of it like a clock with a hand at 12 representing the scope and the hand at 6 representing the stock with the bore being the center. Which direction does the 6 hand have to rotate to hit the cheek of the left handed shooter at the 3 position?
I don't give a shit what you or anyone else believes. Nothing about this topic is based on data.
It's opinions, fudd lore, and appeal to authority logical fallacies.
Anyway, I'm done even caring about this.
Hornady did take gain twist barrels from Bartlein to test several years back when Dave Emary was there...
When the results were had, (data) I went to Dave at Shot Show and asked him for the data. His answer to me was, No, you'll go on the internet and post it ...
After that, they asked for more GT Barrels and changed the location of the pressure ports, hmmm
But they won't give me the results, that said, my opinion is, they felt it was a successful test as Bartlein still makes them and we seen more cropping up here and there
I have 6, maybe 8 rifles with LH GT Barrels including the Valkyrie I shot this past weekend at the local match
When the results were had, (data) I went to Dave at Shot Show and asked him for the data. His answer to me was, No, you'll go on the internet and post it ...
After that, they asked for more GT Barrels and changed the location of the pressure ports, hmmm
But they won't give me the results, that said, my opinion is, they felt it was a successful test as Bartlein still makes them and we seen more cropping up here and there
I have 6, maybe 8 rifles with LH GT Barrels including the Valkyrie I shot this past weekend at the local match
TBH I can see how there may be a larger resistance or better recoil return of stock against body/hand grip of a LH twist with clockwise rifle recoil for a RH shooter and may have a modest reduction in sight picture movement compared to the stock turning away from your body, but again you probably need to be pretty decent to be at that point to genuinely notice. The "physics" people were bandying about which way the rifle twists is simply wrong, again If it worked like that they would kick forward rather than recoil backwards applying the same "physics".
The rifle does move forward in cases of poor recoil management. Thus bipods “hopping”.
People are forgetting there’s a lot of transfers of energy going on. Just because the initial “torque” on the barrel is opposite the twist doesn’t mean that’s what the result will be a in the milli-seconds after.
Just like a rifle can recoil to the rear and then the bipod “hops” because the shooter transferred more energy back into the rifle than ideal.
What's that got to do with anything? That's a marksmanship failure, nothing to do with the projectile and rifle interaction.
Here's a hint, if Thales/Lithgow arms with far better modelling and lab gear than any of you run an eccentric muzzle brake port on the LA105 with that orientation on a RH twist, maybe conventional physics continues to perform regardless of the smoke and mirrors rubbish people are carrying on with. If you are wondering, these guys have automated target tracking and fire control on light arms already working to knock small surveillance drones out of the air.
www.lithgowarms.com
They also make these:
www.lithgowarms.com
They also test weapons systems for people, why don't you ask them?
www.lithgowarms.com
Here's a hint, if Thales/Lithgow arms with far better modelling and lab gear than any of you run an eccentric muzzle brake port on the LA105 with that orientation on a RH twist, maybe conventional physics continues to perform regardless of the smoke and mirrors rubbish people are carrying on with. If you are wondering, these guys have automated target tracking and fire control on light arms already working to knock small surveillance drones out of the air.
LA105 Woomera Centrefire Rifle - Lithgow Arms
Specifications 6.5mm Creedmoor 308 Winchester Overall Length With thread protector and butt pad (with no spacer inserts) 1106mm With muzzle brake and butt pad (with no spacer inserts) 1148mm Note: […]
www.lithgowarms.com
They also make these:
F90 Automatic Rifle Family - Lithgow Arms
F90 360 F90 407 F90 508 Overall Length 653 mm 701 mm 802 mm Weight 3.15Kg 3.25Kg 3.39Kg Calibre 5.56 mm x 45 NATO Barrel Proprietary, military grade steel, cold […]
www.lithgowarms.com
They also test weapons systems for people, why don't you ask them?
Small Arms Testing Facility - Lithgow Arms
About Based in Lithgow, NSW, the SATF supports the Commonwealth’s Priority Industry Capability in infantry weapons, and is also available for use by defence, government agencies and industry. The SATF […]
www.lithgowarms.com
What's that got to do with anything? That's a marksmanship failure, nothing to do with the projectile and rifle interaction.
Here's a hint, if Thales/Lithgow arms with far better modelling and lab gear than any of you run an eccentric muzzle brake port on the LA105 with that orientation on a RH twist, maybe conventional physics continues to perform regardless of the smoke and mirrors rubbish people are carrying on with. If you are wondering, these guys have automated target tracking and fire control on light arms already working to knock small surveillance drones out of the air.
LA105 Woomera Centrefire Rifle - Lithgow Arms
Specifications 6.5mm Creedmoor 308 Winchester Overall Length With thread protector and butt pad (with no spacer inserts) 1106mm With muzzle brake and butt pad (with no spacer inserts) 1148mm Note: […]
They also make these:
F90 Automatic Rifle Family - Lithgow Arms
F90 360 F90 407 F90 508 Overall Length 653 mm 701 mm 802 mm Weight 3.15Kg 3.25Kg 3.39Kg Calibre 5.56 mm x 45 NATO Barrel Proprietary, military grade steel, cold […]
They also test weapons systems for people, why don't you ask them?
Small Arms Testing Facility - Lithgow Arms
About Based in Lithgow, NSW, the SATF supports the Commonwealth’s Priority Industry Capability in infantry weapons, and is also available for use by defence, government agencies and industry. The SATF […]
Umm, it has everything to do with it because you’re assuming the muzzle brake is to counteract the initial torque. There are no gasses in the brake ports until the bullet leaves.
I was attempting to use what I thought was a very easy example of how the end result isn’t always how it starts. Apparently I failed from your response that continued to not see the big picture.
Once energy had been imparted the rifle continues to move long after the projectile and gas have gone. The gas thrust still limits the range of motion of the rifle, both backwards/up and torsionally. Yes the rifle will hit a peak rotational (and rearward linear) velocity as the bullet departs the rifling but it's displacement at that time is still small, the gas thrust opposing those reduces them before significant displacement or energy transfer into the shooter.
Several people and someone who is a very experienced shooter have claimed that the gun twists with rather than against the spin of the bullet, that is outright wrong. Bounce in a bipod vertical or torsionally as in the primal rights definitely not a lab grade high speed camera video or shooter themselved is an entirely separate issue to stating "the bullet drags the barrel with it" which is complete nonsense.
Several people and someone who is a very experienced shooter have claimed that the gun twists with rather than against the spin of the bullet, that is outright wrong. Bounce in a bipod vertical or torsionally as in the primal rights definitely not a lab grade high speed camera video or shooter themselved is an entirely separate issue to stating "the bullet drags the barrel with it" which is complete nonsense.
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So are you saying there is absolutely no left hand (in reference to the shooter) initially?
As I am not telling you stock wont end up moving right by the end of all this.
I’m simply stating on a technical level this isn’t just as simple “bullet spin right barrel spin right”. Just as recoil isn’t as simple as “bullet go that way, rifle go the other.”
If the bullet is spinning clockwise the rifle will spin counter clockwise, even with something like the Lithgow brake the rifle will obviously start to turn that way but the velocity and energy will be significantly reduced by the effect of the gas port before there has been a large displacement.
People were stating outright wrong physics. What happens with marksmanship/jelly interaction of the rifle and shooter once the bullet is in flight is a separate issue to saying the bullet imparts a torque to the barrel of the same direction as the barrel imparts to it.
People were stating outright wrong physics. What happens with marksmanship/jelly interaction of the rifle and shooter once the bullet is in flight is a separate issue to saying the bullet imparts a torque to the barrel of the same direction as the barrel imparts to it.
We are on the same page.
This issue some are having:
A right hand twist barrel with right hand shooter appears to have the butt move to the right and away from the shooter. That a left hand twist barrel will now move left and into the shooter.
Or, that it’s appears a clockwise twist moves the butt of the rifle clockwise and vice versa.
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