Tuner Data

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

In 7 pages, not a single person has even remotely come close to saying tuners don't work or positive compensation isn't real.

The only critique is the one that has been re-issued year after year.......the absolutely unacceptable way the data in favor of both are presented/communicated.

I can absolutely promise that if both of these assertions are in fact true and repeatable.....one of the major reasons none of you have any .gov contracts is embarrassingly terrible "testing" (quotations because it doesn't even come close to meeting the standard one would need for any type of empirical paper) and data presentation.

Multiple people have 20 years or more "testing".....for a combined 60-100 years of testing......and you are using paper and pencils/sharpies to present your theories.

Be better.

 

[cameljockey230]

Quantity isn’t an issue here.

It might help to slow down on the quantity or add more water

 

[cameljockey230]

In 7 pages, not a single person has even remotely come close to saying tuners don't work or positive compensation isn't real.

The only critique is the one that has been re-issued year after year.......the absolutely unacceptable way the data in favor of both are presented/communicated.

I can absolutely promise that if both of these assertions are in fact true and repeatable.....one of the major reasons none of you have any .gov contracts is embarrassingly terrible "testing" (quotations because it doesn't even come close to meeting the standard one would need for any type of empirical paper) and data presentation.

Multiple people have 20 years or more "testing".....for a combined 60-100 years of testing......and you are using paper and pencils/sharpies to present your theories.

Be better.

Your so far out of your league the hubble telescope can't spot you

 

[cameljockey230]

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.
The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

 

[brianf]

unfortunately your side of the thread has a source named Bryan Litz and his testing was done using a CZ457 and SKS ammo. You dont know this but thats a 22 rimfire rifle and ammo

I didn’t quote his test as gospel.

I said it’s a actual test that I’d like some opinions on, but everyone ran for the hills.

I suggested that we (anyone who has useable data) go down with center fire and use every tech possible to finish it once and for all.

But everyone asked is unwilling because of some obscure reason other than …yes it’s good for the shooting community to have verified validated data.

So now in the market there are dozens of products that may or may not work

They suck new shooters into wasting their money who dont know the difference; nor can they find a reliable source.

People are more worried about ego that pushing the shooting sports forward.

 

[JBoomhauer]

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating that positive compensation had been achieved.
The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

What if I want to shoot targets at 73 meters?

 

[kthomas]

Your so far out of your league the hubble telescope can't spot you

It's a blunt, but fair critique.

The tuner advocates seem to be stuck in the past, still relying on unverified models and simulations from decades ago. Unverified assumptions. And testing that doesn't account for and isolate other variables.

Nobody here is saying that you or Tim are wrong. There's just no way to reconcile the claims with the level of evidence being presented in this thread and elsewhere. But if some of the claims are true, it would behoove the tuner camp to undergo proper and rigorous scientific testing to advance the knowledge and equipment for tuners. There are some bold claims being made - and if those claims could be properly verified, there could be a huge market for the military and commercial sales. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It's just kind of weird that tuners and our understanding of them hasn't really evolved over the past couple of decades. With all the advances in technology, tuners are still stuck in some time warp, and are considered a "dark art" still. If some of the claims being made about tuners are true (and they very well could be), you would think that the collective knowledge and equipment would've progressed as well.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

I'd love to be proven wrong (not really wrong I guess since I'm not saying they don't work)......and would post the data/video/testimonials everywhere and scream it off a mountain top.

Being wrong is literally how things get done.

 

[cameljockey230]

The tuner crowd is pushing forward and the records show it.
The flat earth crowd that can't except change and we see them here are getting left in the past.

 

[cameljockey230]

It's a blunt, but fair critique.

The tuner advocates seem to be stuck in the past, still relying on unverified models and simulations from decades ago. Unverified assumptions. And testing that doesn't account for and isolate other variables.

Nobody here is saying that you or Tim are wrong. There's just no way to reconcile the claims with the level of evidence being presented in this thread and elsewhere. But if some of the claims are true, it would behoove the tuner camp to undergo proper and rigorous scientific testing to advance the knowledge and equipment for tuners. There are some bold claims being made - and if those claims could be properly verified, there could be a huge market for the military and commercial sales. There's nothing to lose and everything to gain.

It's just kind of weird that tuners and our understanding of them hasn't really evolved over the past couple of decades. With all the advances in technology, tuners are still stuck in some time warp, and are considered a "dark art" still. If some of the claims being made about tuners are true (and they very well could be), you would think that the collective knowledge and equipment would've progressed as well.

Having only read 3 years of your posts I would estimate you as someone with very little match experience and fewer achievements in shooting.
That's not a knock as most shooters don't win only one shooter does.
If your goal is just to have fun carry on if your goal is to advance you need to test everything out for yourself and utilize what actually works.

 

[kthomas]

Having only read 3 years of your posts I would estimate you as someone with very little match experience and fewer achievements in shooting.
That's not a knock as most shooters don't win only one shooter does.
If your goal is just to have fun carry on if your goal is to advance you need to test everything out for yourself and utilize what actually works.

Lots of people have won matches using ammo produced with the "Satterlee method" - that doesn't mean that the process works (it doesn't).

There are many variables being tested at a match. You can't draw a conclusion about tuners from match wins.

 

[timintx]

Yes, we have. We’re being told one podcast is invalid, but you’re saying another is valid.

Mine is with Eric Cortina , on positive compensation and the explanations . It is valid .

 

[cameljockey230]

Lots of people have won matches using ammo produced with the "Satterlee method" - that doesn't mean that the process works (it doesn't).

There are many variables being tested at a match. You can't draw a conclusion about tuners from match wins.

Good thing they didn't use your method or they would not only have won but they would have embarrassed you with how well they did.

 

[cameljockey230]

Mine is with Eric Cortina , on positive compensation and the explanations . It is valid .

Tim the excessive libations are confusing him. He needs to quote things but as his statements are just what's bouncing around in his head and not connected to facts he can't

 

[kthomas]

Good thing they didn't use your method or they would not only have won but they would have embarrassed you with how well they did.

There's no need to resort to condescending remarks and insults.

I've been nothing but respectful in our disagreements. I don't even necessarily think you are wrong. I'm just trying to find out where the evidence is to support the claims - currently there's no way to reconcile the two with what's been presented.

 

[cameljockey230]

There's no need to resort to condescending remarks and insults.

I've been nothing but respectful in our disagreements. I don't even necessarily think you are wrong. I'm just trying to find out where the evidence is to support the claims - currently there's no way to reconcile the two with what's been presented.

That wasn't condescending it was a logical conclusion based off of what you posted.

 

[msgriff]

 

[brianf]

My google-fu is weak today.

Can anyone find a line up /pictures of winners/top 5

nightforce ELR
king of 2 mile
Fclass worlds
600 or 1000 yard br

I’d like to see if they have tuners etc

We can start using actual info that’s out there

 

[JBoomhauer]

Nightforce Elr.

Mitchell Fitzpatrick Wins Nightforce ELR Steel Challenge in WY « Daily Bulletin

Talented shooter Mitchell Fitzpatrick of Applied Ballistics topped a field of over 280 competitors to win the 2023 Nightforce Extreme Long Range (ELR) Steel Challenge in Wyoming last week.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[JBoomhauer]

KO2M

King of 2 Miles 2023- Match Recap

The 8th annual King of 2 Miles competition was held in Raton, New Mexico from September 22-24th. 69 shooters from all over the world gathered for the chance to become the next King of 2 Miles.

cuttingedgebullets.com

 

[timintx]

My google-fu is weak today.

Can anyone find a line up /pictures of winners/top 5

nightforce ELR
king of 2 mile
Fclass worlds
600 or 1000 yard br

I’d like to see if they have tuners etc

We can start using actual info that’s out there

2nd place 2015 ko2m
1st place 2016 worlds longest shot challenge.
4th place 2008 NBRSA 1000yd Nationals .
World ranked 100
4th place conquer the castle ELR
All with tuners .

 

[cameljockey230]

Your talent level doesn't require a tuner just use factory ammo and the factory savage rifle with open sights and you will shoot as well as most here

 

[cameljockey230]

My google-fu is weak today.

Can anyone find a line up /pictures of winners/top 5

nightforce ELR
king of 2 mile
Fclass worlds
600 or 1000 yard br

I’d like to see if they have tuners etc

We can start using actual info that’s out there

The national championship was won using 2 tuner guns one in lightgun class the other in heavygun class.
The smallest group ever fired in the history of shooting in all disciplines was shot by Mr Stinnett using a tuner.
You truly are out of your league but keep swinging for the cheap seats.

 

[brianf]

2nd place 2015 ko2m
1st place 2016 worlds longest shot challenge.
4th place 2008 NBRSA 1000yd Nationals .

So no tuners won or have been used in the last 8 years?

 

[brianf]

The national championship was won using 2 tuner guns one in lightgun class the other in heavygun class.
The smallest group ever fired in the history of shooting in all disciplines was shot by Mr Stinnett using a tuner.
You truly are out of your league but keep swinging for the cheap seats.

13 years ago

Cheap seats…times have changed and do have components.

Are we going to bring up the perfect 22lr group from the early 70’s

Or how about 300wm with 200smks as well

Orrr, instead of playing gotcha how about you just reply with what was asked?

Or wait for someone else to

 

[cameljockey230]

13 years ago

Cheap seats…times have changed and do have components.

Are we going to bring up the perfect 22lr group from the early 70’s

Or how about 300wm with 200smks as well

Orrr, instead of playing gotcha how about you just reply with what was asked?

Or wait for someone else to

Yeah once I became the national champion at 1000 yard benchrest I switched to what you guys call elr or what we call URSA and yes I am the only 2 time 3K winner there as well.
Your out of your league bud time to go back to the shed and build some hunting rifles

 

[JBoomhauer]

2nd place 2015 ko2m
1st place 2016 worlds longest shot challenge.
4th place 2008 NBRSA 1000yd Nationals .
World ranked 100
4th place conquer the castle ELR
All with tuners .

This 2008 NBRSA Match?

Schatz Wins NBRSA 1000-Yard Championship « Daily Bulletin

Legendary North Dakota shooter Richard Schatz, the Duke of Dashers, has done it again. Competing in challenging conditions at Byers, Colorado, against a field of top shooters, Richard took the two-gun championship. Glen Sterling also shot very well. Both Richard and Glen broke the existing NBRSA...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[timintx]

13 years ago

Cheap seats…times have changed and do have components.

Are we going to bring up the perfect 22lr group from the early 70’s

Or how about 300wm with 200smks as well

Orrr, instead of playing gotcha how about you just reply with what was asked?

Or wait for someone else to

So these changes have negated tuners ?

 

[cameljockey230]

This 2008 NBRSA Match?

Schatz Wins NBRSA 1000-Yard Championship « Daily Bulletin

Legendary North Dakota shooter Richard Schatz, the Duke of Dashers, has done it again. Competing in challenging conditions at Byers, Colorado, against a field of top shooters, Richard took the two-gun championship. Glen Sterling also shot very well. Both Richard and Glen broke the existing NBRSA...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Wow talk about memories I always enjoyed shooting with Richard Schatz and his daughter was always hired to pull our targets. Great people!!!

 

[timintx]

So no tuners won or have been used in the last 8 years?

Well sure , but very few if any tuners were used in long range . You loaded the question , give me a break . So what if they were not using tuners lol.

 

[timintx]

Wow talk about memories I always enjoyed shooting with Richard Schatz and his daughter was always hired to pull our targets. Great people!!!

Yep Mr Dasher kicked my ass on a regular basis , lol.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

I proposed a test in that other thread. That would be a pretty darn good start IMO.
Here it is again.

I‘ve done this in about the same similar process, only I printed groups at 1000. Yes there was a trend in group size and changes and yes I believe when set up correctly it makes a difference.

As far as getting into a debate or head butting match here with some I don’t have the time.

JH

 

[timintx]

This 2008 NBRSA Match?

Schatz Wins NBRSA 1000-Yard Championship « Daily Bulletin

Legendary North Dakota shooter Richard Schatz, the Duke of Dashers, has done it again. Competing in challenging conditions at Byers, Colorado, against a field of top shooters, Richard took the two-gun championship. Glen Sterling also shot very well. Both Richard and Glen broke the existing NBRSA...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Yep Richard cleaned our clocks , he was pulling targets for me. Glen sterling both shot back to back 2.3inch groups and Richard Shatz shot back two back 2.1 inch groups . it was amazing to watch .

 

[kthomas]

So these changes have negated tuners ?

Match wins don't really verify or negate tuners. They are far from the only variable being tested on any match day.

Just like if a match is won or a world record is set without a tuner - that also doesn't mean tuners don't work. It's a silly metric.

But since we are on the topic, was this group shot through the use of a tuner? I don't see a tuner on the rifle nor do I see any mention of a tuner in this article or elsewhere on this:

Sunday GunDay: .300 WSM Pending 1K World Record Heavy Gun « Daily Bulletin

This Sunday we feature an impressive .300 WSM Heavy Gun shot by a superb long-range shooter. With this rig, at age 83, Arizona benchrest ace Charles Greer drilled a remarkable 2.862 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records on the books.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[cameljockey230]

Match wins don't really verify or negate tuners. They are far from the only variable being tested on any match day.

Just like if a match is won or a world record is set without a tuner - that also doesn't mean tuners don't work. It's a silly metric.

But since we are on the topic, was this group shot through the use of a tuner? I don't see a tuner on the rifle nor do I see any mention of a tuner in this article or elsewhere on this:

Sunday GunDay: .300 WSM Pending 1K World Record Heavy Gun « Daily Bulletin

This Sunday we feature an impressive .300 WSM Heavy Gun shot by a superb long-range shooter. With this rig, at age 83, Arizona benchrest ace Charles Greer drilled a remarkable 2.862 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records on the books.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

I used to shoot with Charles on a regular basis and he didn't use a tuner back then 13 plus years ago.
He used a Boots Obermeyer barrel that was regularly setback to obtain a clean throat and muzzle.
This was all prior to 2013
The smallest group ever fired by a human was shot using a tuner

 

[kthomas]

I used to shoot with Charles on a regular basis and he didn't use a tuner back then 13 plus years ago.
He used a Boots Obermeyer barrel that was regularly setback to obtain a clean throat and muzzle.
This was all prior to 2012

So if a world record was set without the use of a tuner, does that mean tuners don't work?

 

[timintx]

Match wins don't really verify or negate tuners. They are far from the only variable being tested on any match day.

Just like if a match is won or a world record is set without a tuner - that also doesn't mean tuners don't work. It's a silly metric.

But since we are on the topic, was this group shot through the use of a tuner? I don't see a tuner on the rifle nor do I see any mention of a tuner in this article or elsewhere on this:

Sunday GunDay: .300 WSM Pending 1K World Record Heavy Gun « Daily Bulletin

This Sunday we feature an impressive .300 WSM Heavy Gun shot by a superb long-range shooter. With this rig, at age 83, Arizona benchrest ace Charles Greer drilled a remarkable 2.862 100-10X group, beating all known 1000-Yard HG 10-shot records on the books.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

Your partner in crime here asked the question , i in just answered his silly metric lol.

 

[kthomas]

Your partner in crime here asked the question , i in just answered his silly metric lol.

I believe cameljockey was the first to use match wins as evidence to support the conclusion that tuners "work".

And he continues to use it that way. Probably why others are now going down that avenue, which IMO, is not a very validating or worthwhile one.

 

[cameljockey230]

So if a world record was set without the use of a tuner, does that mean tuners don't work?

No it means the record would most likely be smaller did you not read what Dr Kolbe wrote?

 

[kthomas]

No it means the record would most likely be smaller did you not read what Dr Kolbe wrote?

How is someone able to set a new record in 2021 without the use of a tuner?

With how successful you and others have been with tuners for the past ~20 years, surely all the records and matches would be won with the use of tuners, no?

 

[Tokay444]

It might help to slow down on the quantity or add more water

Only one large rock cube fits.

 

[cameljockey230]

I believe cameljockey was the first to use match wins as evidence to support the conclusion that tuners "work".

And he continues to use it that way. Probably why others are now going down that avenue, which IMO, is not a very validating or worthwhile one.

No your once again mistating the facts just like the last 3 years for some known/unknown reason.
Everybody here knows me as a terrible shooter who can't reload or even tie my own shoes yet with all these issues once I added a tuner I somehow managed to get 2 guns to shoot groups over 3 days that beat some of the best shooters walking on earth today.
See how simple it is to be open and honest?
Give it a try

 

[Tokay444]

Your so far out of your league the hubble telescope can't spot you

You’re*

 

[cameljockey230]

Only one large rock cube fits.

I'm not an expert on alcohol but after reading your posts I think it's safe to say you have a very large glass

 

[Tokay444]

Finally, the barrel was "tuned" by attaching a weight to the front of the barrel, such that the rate of change of angle at the muzzle was now 6.0 MOA per millisecond at bullet launch, which is the rate of change required for complete positive compensation at 50 metres. The groups fired with the tuned barrel were small and round, showing no sign of vertical dispersion, so demonstrating

that positive compensation had been achieved.
The measurement of barrel vibrations in the way demonstrated will be a very quick and positive method of tuning a rifle, requiring very few shots and very little time. Moreover, there is no ambiguity or uncertainty about the result. When the barrel is tuned for complete positive compensation, no further improvement is possible.

Is my barrel tuned for complete and total positive compensation, or can you sell me something to improve it?

 

[cameljockey230]

View attachment 8245871
Is my barrel tuned for complete and total positive compensation, or can you sell me something to improve it?

If your not using a tuner your groups can be made smaller by using one.
I don't sell or market anything.
I also don't post groups shot at 10 yards

 

[timintx]

I believe cameljockey was the first to use match wins as evidence to support the conclusion that tuners "work".

And he continues to use it that way. Probably why others are now going down that avenue, which IMO, is not a very validating or worthwhile one.

Your buddies question is equally invalidating in the non use of tuners.

 

[Tokay444]

Mine is with Eric Cortina , on positive compensation and the explanations . It is valid .

But “the Litz podcast with Cortina” isn’t. Got it.

 

[Taylorbok]

Can anyone for or against Tuners please explain the data that is required that shows tuners work?

"here is a few ideas" -Others
"Tuners win matches" -CJ230
"Ok show us the matches won with vs without tuners" -Others
"I don't have to prove shit" CJ230

 

[kthomas]

Your question is equally invalidating in the non use of tuners.

I agree. And I've been pretty clear on that.

Matches are not just the result of tuners. Many, many variables are in play and not isolated. A match win does not validate either side of this argument, though one individual keeps clinging to that specific metric.